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MIMIC

Member
Dec 18, 2017
8,351
So is it me, or does no one use protection? When I first started out, so many guys insisted on going raw that I just relented and gave into the pressure. A guy I was with today specifically insisted on no condoms. I declined last week and said OK today lol.

It's just weird that the culture/community is so blasé about STDs.

I'm trying to get back into the habit of using condoms. And I'm on PReP and get tested every 3 months.
For the other folk in the thread, i wanted to ask, i've had a couple of sexual encounters and it hasn't been that great… i wanted to share my experience and ask for advice, if anyone can share their thoughts it would be great :)

Does anyone feel some kind of pain or unbearable pressure in the colon/lower abdomen while bottoming? i don't know if it's air being pumped in or something like that but it really takes me out of the experience and forces me to stop…

And also, i've tried being a top but i really can't seem to remain hard enough to do it… i don't know if it's some kind of erectile dysfunction or not, but it's a bummer…

Still, after the guy i liked left me, these experiences have been with guys that i don't really know as well as i knew him, so i wonder if there's a psychological component there that might be affecting my ability to have pleasure during sex… Has anyone experienced something like this when you first started your sexual life?

I had the ED thing for a while when I first started out. I even asked my doctor about it. They ran some tests on me and saw that everything was fine. They put me on Viagra and Cialis for a while but it didn't work because my problem wasn't physical. I found it to be psychological and I linked mine with porn induced erectile dysfunction (PIED) Complete self-diagnosis. Before I came out, all I did was watch porn. So when I first got with a guy, my body was so used to 2D images that a 3D person wasn't satisfying (that's the theory, which made sense to me). So in essence, I had to "rewire" my brain's chemistry to be turned on my 3D images. And to do that, I refrained from porn, masturbation and having an orgasm (PMO) for a month. And it worked. It's sort of affiliated with the "no fap" thing, but with PIED, you're supposed to do 3 months....but I guess it depends on the severity. One month did the trick for me.

And if you search for it, guys who have done it swear by it, so I figured it couldn't hurt to try. And like I said, it worked for me. But I should warn you that this theory is not exactly scientifically-driven. But there's really nothing to lose here.

Can't really speak to the bottoming stuff (I'm a top).
 

RatskyWatsky

Are we human or are we dancer?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,931
So is it me, or does no one use protection? When I first started out, so many guys insisted on going raw that I just relented and gave into the pressure. A guy I was with today specifically insisted on no condoms. I declined last week and said OK today lol.

It's just weird that the culture/community is so blasé about STDs.

Idk of many people who are worried about STDs these days. HIV obviously used to be the big one in the gay community but with the availability of PREP/PEP (not to mention the amazing anti retroviral therapies that exist for if you do contract HIV), people feel like they don't have to worry about even that one any more...
 

cbhlvr

Member
Apr 2, 2022
11
Hello, welcome!!

You know i can relate a lot regarding what you are feeling! I was still closeted a year ago but i used to do that thing with pictures and talking with guys… i think that as long as you are feeling comfortable doing it there shouldn't be a problem! It's nice to explore one's sexuality! And regarding your anxiety and depression, have you tried therapy? It has helped me a lot with that, tbh. Wish you the best in your process!!
Hey, thanks for the answer. I never thought that I'd do this kind of thing, but I said something nice onto this guy's post and he came talking to me privately and sent me some spicy pics. This kind of thing had never happened to me before, my heart started to race, it was so... strange but cool at the same time! Then I felt that I should return the favor and took some spicy pics myself and sent it to him. It was scary at first, but then I decided to make some of these pics public, since no one will ever recognize this virgin D anyways, and the response was so wild that I guess I became addicted to this kind of attention. I'm so lonely, and never really felt attractive or desired before, and seeing all these guys saying so many nice and spicy things made my life a little less boring. But, to be honest, I had a scary experience a few days ago. This younger guy in his early twenties came talking to me saying that he really enjoyed my photos, and wanted to talk outside of Reddit. He shared some pics and he was my type, super cute and chubby. But from the start he sounded so needy and naive, asking me to be his friend, asking for a long distance relationship (we live in different continents), saying he wanted us to be more than... well, horny folks that stumbled on the internet. He really seemed to be interested in being part of my life, and hell, I'm not proud of my life at all; I hate to reveal the dark side of me, but damn this boy broke me, I started freaking out, tried to explain things to him, and ended up telling him everything, my life problems, and how he was triggering my anxiety and depression. This was supposed to be nothing more than some kind of horny fun, but there I was, crying in the shower. He never stopped, he wanted to talk to me all the time, asking me if I was alright, and suddenly he said that I was the only person who ever said something nice about his body (f*ck beauty standards!), that I was the only one who kept talking to him and didn't block him, and probably because of that, he confessed that he was in love with me.

Well, f*ck!

Besides pathetic, I'm also very empathetic, and I could never play with other people's feelings. I explained that many times to him, but in the end I had to say that I was really sorry, but I had to cut him from my life for his own sake. I felt bloody AWFUL! I hope that he's alright, but that thing scared me for real. You never know what kind of minefield you're stepping into.

About therapy, I'd love to, but it's something out of my reach for now. Perhaps that's why I vent with strangers on the internet, hahah! But thanks for the tip!
 
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MIMIC

Member
Dec 18, 2017
8,351
I mean I ask about STIs and wear condoms when penetrative sex is performed. Plus I'm on PrEP.

I just ask these days and will wear condoms if he doesn't care.

Idk of many people who are worried about STDs these days. HIV obviously used to be the big one in the gay community but with the availability of PREP/PEP (not to mention the amazing anti retroviral therapies that exist for if you do contract HIV), people feel like they don't have to worry about even that one any more...

Before I came out, I had no idea how far along the medical community had come with HIV research. I wasn't sexually active so I still thought HIV was a death sentence (and still wondering how Magic Johnson is still alive).
 
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Canucked

Comics Council 2020 & Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,420
Canada
I just ask these days and will wear condoms if he doesn't care.



Before I came out, I had no idea how far along the medical community had come with HIV research. I wasn't sexually active so I still thought HIV was a death sentence (and still wondering how Magic Johnson is still alive).

Keep wearing condoms. If someone refuses there are plenty of hunky sexy guys who are safe out there. There's so much more than HIV out there.
 

NHarmonic.

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,298
So is it me, or does no one use protection? When I first started out, so many guys insisted on going raw that I just relented and gave into the pressure. A guy I was with today specifically insisted on no condoms. I declined last week and said OK today lol.

It's just weird that the culture/community is so blasé about STDs.

I'm trying to get back into the habit of using condoms. And I'm on PReP and get tested every 3 months.


I had the ED thing for a while when I first started out. I even asked my doctor about it. They ran some tests on me and saw that everything was fine. They put me on Viagra and Cialis for a while but it didn't work because my problem wasn't physical. I found it to be psychological and I linked mine with porn induced erectile dysfunction (PIED) Complete self-diagnosis. Before I came out, all I did was watch porn. So when I first got with a guy, my body was so used to 2D images that a 3D person wasn't satisfying (that's the theory, which made sense to me). So in essence, I had to "rewire" my brain's chemistry to be turned on my 3D images. And to do that, I refrained from porn, masturbation and having an orgasm (PMO) for a month. And it worked. It's sort of affiliated with the "no fap" thing, but with PIED, you're supposed to do 3 months....but I guess it depends on the severity. One month did the trick for me.

And if you search for it, guys who have done it swear by it, so I figured it couldn't hurt to try. And like I said, it worked for me. But I should warn you that this theory is not exactly scientifically-driven. But there's really nothing to lose here.

Can't really speak to the bottoming stuff (I'm a top).

Thanks for the advice!

You know, you might be on to something there. 28+ years of only looking at porn for arousal, it might had a bad effect on my psyche… i'll look up onto the PIED stuff.

Still, i'm on the process of experimentation and discovery, so maybe i can't top and i'm just 100% bottom? Might be a possibility.
 

Aarglefarg

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,070
Shame almost no one is talking about Heartstopper on Netflix.

Just finished it and it's a wonderful, lovely show.
I haven't seen Heartstopper, but I recently watched all of the HBO show Our Flag Means Death and it's excellent. It's a comedy about pirates, but its main strength is definitely the storytelling. As is realistic for the setting, It's very queer.
 

Jam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,053
Are there any good studies on mental health within the trans population or a good data break down?

I.e. cases before and after transitioning.

A bigot is arguing that mental health issues increase ten-fold post transition. And I've always read and assumed there was a lot self-affirmation and a decrease in prolonged mental health issues after transitioning?

I'm not naive to think there isn't still a multitude of cases of the issues continuing, or first appearing post-transition but still.
 

Small Red Boy

▲ Legend ▲
Member
May 9, 2019
2,683
Are there any good studies on mental health within the trans population or a good data break down?

I.e. cases before and after transitioning.

A bigot is arguing that mental health issues increase ten-fold post transition. And I've always read and assumed there was a lot self-affirmation and a decrease in prolonged mental health issues after transitioning?

I'm not naive to think there isn't still a multitude of cases of the issues continuing, or first appearing post-transition but still.
There's this review (it looks at recent studies made on the topic of gender affriming therapies) from 2018 https://link.springer.com/article/10.1007/s11920-018-0973-0
The abstract said:

Recent Findings

Although there are some conflicting data, GAHT overwhelmingly seems to have positive psychological effects in both adolescents and adults. Research tends to support that GAHT reduces symptoms of anxiety and depression, lowers perceived and social distress, and improves quality of life and self-esteem in both male-to-female and female-to-male transgender individuals.

Summary

Clinically, prescribing GAHT can help with gender dysphoria-related mental distress. Thus, timely hormonal intervention represents a crucial tool for improving behavioral wellness in transgender individuals, though effects on cognitive processes fundamental for daily living are unknown. Future research should prioritize better understanding of how GAHT may affect executive functioning.
GAHT is gender afirming hormone therapy. It goes more in depth in the article on what the studies say if you want more depth. I don't agree with all the terminology it uses, to be expected from a Psychiatry Journal, but for your question specifically is a good answer I think.
 

cbhlvr

Member
Apr 2, 2022
11
Sigh, deleted everything from Reddit. It was taking a heavy toll on my mental health. Sometimes it was great, other times, hell. I can't navigate people. I guess I'm beyond broken.
 

T002 Tyrant

Member
Nov 8, 2018
9,055
Are there any good studies on mental health within the trans population or a good data break down?

I.e. cases before and after transitioning.

A bigot is arguing that mental health issues increase ten-fold post transition. And I've always read and assumed there was a lot self-affirmation and a decrease in prolonged mental health issues after transitioning?

I'm not naive to think there isn't still a multitude of cases of the issues continuing, or first appearing post-transition but still.

They did a study recently on over 9000 13-17 year olds and gender affirming medical care reduced the suicide rate by 40% from what I remember.

At the moment social media sucks. Even surrounded by people who love me, the mix of apathy from cis friends on Facebook and the comments sections just make me feel like the loneliest person in the world.

I wish I knew some Trans people I could add on Facebook so I could feel less alone.
 

Zeroing

Banned
Apr 9, 2022
66
Hello everyone :)

  • Your gender? - Male
  • Your sexual orientation? - homosexual
  • Where Are You From? - Portugal
  • Where Do You Live? - currently I've moved to a tiny Portuguese island called Madeira.
  • How Old Are you? 34
  • Profession or Career interest? - I'm a graphic designer and I also do art
  • Favorite video game(s)? - hmm hard to choose but I value creativity, Journey, hohokum, the last of us etc.
  • What are your hobbies (other than gaming)? Photography and paragliding
 

Canucked

Comics Council 2020 & Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,420
Canada
Hello everyone :)

  • Your gender? - Male
  • Your sexual orientation? - homosexual
  • Where Are You From? - Portugal
  • Where Do You Live? - currently I've moved to a tiny Portuguese island called Madeira.
  • How Old Are you? 34
  • Profession or Career interest? - I'm a graphic designer and I also do art
  • Favorite video game(s)? - hmm hard to choose but I value creativity, Journey, hohokum, the last of us etc.
  • What are your hobbies (other than gaming)? Photography and paragliding
Hello!
 

RatskyWatsky

Are we human or are we dancer?
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,931
Hello everyone :)

  • Your gender? - Male
  • Your sexual orientation? - homosexual
  • Where Are You From? - Portugal
  • Where Do You Live? - currently I've moved to a tiny Portuguese island called Madeira.
  • How Old Are you? 34
  • Profession or Career interest? - I'm a graphic designer and I also do art
  • Favorite video game(s)? - hmm hard to choose but I value creativity, Journey, hohokum, the last of us etc.
  • What are your hobbies (other than gaming)? Photography and paragliding

Hi, welcome!
 

Zeroing

Banned
Apr 9, 2022
66
So, I use this forum and another one. Well things got weirder on the other forum once I fully put it out there my sexual orientation. I made a Male appreciation thread, it got deleted and no reason was given, there's like 3 threads about female appreciation threads - soft porn.

Cannot make homoerotic jokes because mods delete everyone and the reason given is always "hypersexualization", straight guys are allowed to make jokes about female parts all the time. But what was worse was a mod using a photo of a guy shoving another one when someone said on a thread that he liked the thread I made about male appreciation ...

Anyway. I am done with the other forum. Apologies for letting this all out...But this just happened once again and kinda triggered me...
 
Jan 11, 2018
9,868
So, I use this forum and another one. Well things got weirder on the other forum once I fully put it out there my sexual orientation. I made a Male appreciation thread, it got deleted and no reason was given, there's like 3 threads about female appreciation threads - soft porn.

Cannot make homoerotic jokes because mods delete everyone and the reason given is always "hypersexualization", straight guys are allowed to make jokes about female parts all the time. But what was worse was a mod using a photo of a guy shoving another one when someone said on a thread that he liked the thread I made about male appreciation ...

Anyway. I am done with the other forum. Apologies for letting this all out...But this just happened once again and kinda triggered me...

Which forum? Name and shame them! :D
 

Small Red Boy

▲ Legend ▲
Member
May 9, 2019
2,683
So, I use this forum and another one. Well things got weirder on the other forum once I fully put it out there my sexual orientation. I made a Male appreciation thread, it got deleted and no reason was given, there's like 3 threads about female appreciation threads - soft porn.

Cannot make homoerotic jokes because mods delete everyone and the reason given is always "hypersexualization", straight guys are allowed to make jokes about female parts all the time. But what was worse was a mod using a photo of a guy shoving another one when someone said on a thread that he liked the thread I made about male appreciation ...

Anyway. I am done with the other forum. Apologies for letting this all out...But this just happened once again and kinda triggered me...
Yeah this place is good in that respect.
 

Zeroing

Banned
Apr 9, 2022
66
These are the recent ones.

p.png

-------------
p.png

-------------

then I started getting a a lot of these!

p.png

I do not think I am more sexual than the other people there so that made me wonder... that the "rules" are only applied to some.
 
Oct 27, 2017
2,852
Columbus, OH
The last time I looked at the old place out of curiosity I saw about three transphobic threads (including the involvement of a token passable enby-hating truscum) before I noped out forever.
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
No surprises regarding the old place.

Oh well, better to focus on positive things here. Take care everyone and have a nice week-end!
 

NHarmonic.

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,298
The old place quickly metasticised as soon as this place broke apart.

Yeah. Not surprising though, considering gamers and the alt-right community have a lot of common ground.

On topic, I'm here at 2:00 am and i don't know how to fight this urge to message the guy that broke with me… like i don't know how to deal with this feeling anymore… therapy has helped but i still find myself longing for his voice, longing to know how he's doing, if he's doing okay, if he is happy…

It's sad, but holy shit never knew you could feel that much…
 

hateradio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,768
welcome, nowhere
It's sad, but holy shit never knew you could feel that much…
You just have to step outside of yourself and feel how he feels.

At some point you cared for someone, but something stopped you from completely falling in love.

I think you have to do some active positive reinforcement.

Think of things that you do like to do whenever you want to text him.

Eg, say you love poetry.


Whenever you get the urge to text him, make yourself write an ENTIRE poem before you can text him. Then make it two poems, then three, etc.

So you spend time doing something that you actually like.

Over time, your mild obsession will fade. You'll meet someone new, too, possibly.
 

LetsEatSnacks

Member
Oct 18, 2020
1,817
United States
Hello. First time posting here so figured I'd start with a greeting from South Dakota.

Anyhow, something has been crossing my mind lately and I'm curious what other folks' take is on the subject matter: I'm pushing 40 years old and ever since I was young, I've been attracted almost exclusively to older men. I remember when I was even really little I'd like to see the family man "dads" in the locker room and never really cared about people my age. Now that I'm older, I still feel that way but don't really know how to counter the usual rhetoric that I have "daddy issues" when in reality, its just always been a natural attraction to men in what I consider their prime (distinguished, older, etc). Now that I am reaching "dad" age by most young gay men's standards, I cringe because I still feel like that young guy who is attracted to older men yet get approached by twinks more than anyone.

I guess I'm mostly asking if there are other guys here who have had a natural attraction to older men who wouldn't consider themselves to have "daddy issues" in the typical way the phrase is used. I sometimes feel alone/ like I'm crazy because I feel this way and other gay friends don't really believe it.
 

NHarmonic.

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,298
You just have to step outside of yourself and feel how he feels.

At some point you cared for someone, but something stopped you from completely falling in love.

I think you have to do some active positive reinforcement.

Think of things that you do like to do whenever you want to text him.

Eg, say you love poetry.


Whenever you get the urge to text him, make yourself write an ENTIRE poem before you can text him. Then make it two poems, then three, etc.

So you spend time doing something that you actually like.

Over time, your mild obsession will fade. You'll meet someone new, too, possibly.

Thank you for the advice…
It's just that i miss him so much. First time i've ever fallen in love, and now this silence… it hurts that he doesn't want to talk anymore, he doesn't want anything to do with me… and i've done nothing wrong, i just gave him all my love…

I don't know what else can i do, but i still get teary eyed while remembering the good times… i feel so dumb for letting myself be so vulnerable….
 

hateradio

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,768
welcome, nowhere
Thank you for the advice…
It's just that i miss him so much. First time i've ever fallen in love, and now this silence… it hurts that he doesn't want to talk anymore, he doesn't want anything to do with me… and i've done nothing wrong, i just gave him all my love…

I don't know what else can i do, but i still get teary eyed while remembering the good times… i feel so dumb for letting myself be so vulnerable….
It happens.

Sometimes things aren't exactly what they seem.


Sounds like it's time to watch that old movie 500 Days of Summer.
 

cbhlvr

Member
Apr 2, 2022
11
Now that I am reaching "dad" age by most young gay men's standards, I cringe because I still feel like that young guy who is attracted to older men yet get approached by twinks more than anyone.
I feel your pain, bro. xD

I'm into fat guys, and although I feel young and people usually don't believe that I'm almost 40, I get called daddy by younger guys on Reddit all the time, and it's killing me. Hell, I never got the chance to be a "son", ffs, and now these boys want me to be their daddy?! ARGH! xD
 

Arcus Felis

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,123
Yeah, you reach a point where you end up in a weird place. But heh, you gotta accept your new daddy status.
 

Isabella420

Banned
May 9, 2022
164
Name (Isabella)
Your gender? MtF Demigirl Your sexual identity? (Preferred pronouns?) Any, even "he", (I think i'm not male) and "it", if you don't use derogatorily, that is. Your sexual orientation? Pan or Sexual Fluid AKA Abrosexual
Where Are You From? MI, USA
Where Do You Live? MI, USA
How Old Are you? 18
Favorite Type of Music? Metal mainly, but I like a wide range of music genres, including electro, lofi, casual rock, rap, pop, 80's pop, OST, and SOME country songs.
Profession or Career interest? Music making, Game Dev, TV show producer, Fashionista
Favorite video game(s)? Minecraft, Sleeping Dogs, it really fluctuates over time though, but mainly GTA like games
What are your hobbies (other than gaming)? Music listening and TV watching (EX: Amphibia, South Park, Simpsons, Family Guy, Spongebob, Married... With Children, Owl House, Big City Greens, Invader Zim. Basically a wide variety of Television)
I just want a place to fit in and find out more about myself and make some friends, I guess, Just dealing with a lot of shit RN.
Also can I vent on here about some shit i'm going through?
 
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MasaDrew

Member
Jun 20, 2019
624
Thank you for the advice…
It's just that i miss him so much. First time i've ever fallen in love, and now this silence… it hurts that he doesn't want to talk anymore, he doesn't want anything to do with me… and i've done nothing wrong, i just gave him all my love…

I don't know what else can i do, but i still get teary eyed while remembering the good times… i feel so dumb for letting myself be so vulnerable….

Heart break is never easy but that first one always stings the worst. What helped me through my first was hobbies, and reminding myself objectively of things I was unhappy with in the relationship and that I deserved better. The hardest loop to break out of is romanticizing the good parts. While those should be cherished things ended for a reason. Lessons are there for both sides and we're going to find what we want for ourselves elsewhere.

I feel your pain, bro. xD

I'm into fat guys, and although I feel young and people usually don't believe that I'm almost 40, I get called daddy by younger guys on Reddit all the time, and it's killing me. Hell, I never got the chance to be a "son", ffs, and now these boys want me to be their daddy?! ARGH! xD

Im there too. And also this time around of being single i'm getting matched up with a alot of divorcees along with the young guys.

My last relationship of 9 months ended recently. He came to terms with being Aromantic and also romantic touch repulsed. We care about each other alot but we both felt that even trying to somehow meet in the middle either of us would be unhappy. We've decided to end the romantic part of our relationship and in 3 months continue a platonic relationship if possible. Its a hard pill to swallow, but more manageable than usual. I haven't spoken with him since the break and he recently posted a haircut vid on tiktok which made me miss him. Things will be alright though.

I'm back to being single. But things feel a bit different this time around. I'm very cognizant of my boundaries and I recognize other guys behavior very fast. Have had some fun and just going with it. Going out regularly again is exhausting though XD
 

WhySoDevious

Member
Oct 31, 2017
8,467
I wish the Kids in the Hall had had the freedom with their original show as they have with the new one.

I wouldn't have minded some full frontal nudity back then.

Now? Not so much.
 

cbhlvr

Member
Apr 2, 2022
11
Im there too. And also this time around of being single i'm getting matched up with a alot of divorcees along with the young guys.

My last relationship of 9 months ended recently. He came to terms with being Aromantic and also romantic touch repulsed. We care about each other alot but we both felt that even trying to somehow meet in the middle either of us would be unhappy. We've decided to end the romantic part of our relationship and in 3 months continue a platonic relationship if possible. Its a hard pill to swallow, but more manageable than usual. I haven't spoken with him since the break and he recently posted a haircut vid on tiktok which made me miss him. Things will be alright though.

I'm back to being single. But things feel a bit different this time around. I'm very cognizant of my boundaries and I recognize other guys behavior very fast. Have had some fun and just going with it. Going out regularly again is exhausting though XD
Sorry to hear that. Must be painful af, but I hope you'll get over it, bro!
 

NHarmonic.

▲ Legend ▲
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,298
Heart break is never easy but that first one always stings the worst. What helped me through my first was hobbies, and reminding myself objectively of things I was unhappy with in the relationship and that I deserved better. The hardest loop to break out of is romanticizing the good parts. While those should be cherished things ended for a reason. Lessons are there for both sides and we're going to find what we want for ourselves elsewhere.



Im there too. And also this time around of being single i'm getting matched up with a alot of divorcees along with the young guys.

My last relationship of 9 months ended recently. He came to terms with being Aromantic and also romantic touch repulsed. We care about each other alot but we both felt that even trying to somehow meet in the middle either of us would be unhappy. We've decided to end the romantic part of our relationship and in 3 months continue a platonic relationship if possible. Its a hard pill to swallow, but more manageable than usual. I haven't spoken with him since the break and he recently posted a haircut vid on tiktok which made me miss him. Things will be alright though.

I'm back to being single. But things feel a bit different this time around. I'm very cognizant of my boundaries and I recognize other guys behavior very fast. Have had some fun and just going with it. Going out regularly again is exhausting though XD

Thank you for the advice bud.

It's exactly as you say, it's difficult to cherish something that at the same time hurts so much, though. I need time to process everything and let him go… but one part of my heart still feels for him. This first breakup in my life has been such a challenge…

Hope you feel better from your breakup, btw! Hope you heal soon and find someone that gives you what you need :)