Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
9,224
I decided to try out "Classic Marathon" on Steam! I'm only a few missions in (currently on the mission The Rose) but I'm thoroughly enjoying it and I think it warrants a discussion.

So the Marathon trilogy is a trilogy of classic (like real, gun-at-the-center-of-the-screen-ass classic) first person shooters by Bungie, predating their Halo series. I'm not a Halo guy, I think I played the campaign in the first game a long time ago, but my understanding is that the Halo series could be considered a spiritual successor to the Marathon trilogy, with at least once concept (AI rampancy) seemingly transplanted wholesale.

The first thing that sticks out about Marathon is how it handles narrative. Much like other classic shooters of the era, the narrative is not presented in a modern, traditional way. There are no cutscenes, no real dialogue, there's not even an opening text crawl when you start a new game. You're dropped right into the first level with no context. Instead, the narrative is presented through terminals, some obvious on the critical path, others quite hidden) in which your characters communicates with the various AIs running the spaceship you're currently on (the titular "Marathon"). So far, it's been pretty straightforward (getting told the current status on the ship and your next objective), but I've already run into a few terminals that have some weird stuff written on them. I know Marathon's story is still discussed and debated by the community to this day, so I'm really excited to dig into it.

I personally love this style of storytelling. It reminds me of games like Metroid Prime or FROM's games, where it's up to the player to explore and put the pieces together, the narrative working in tandem with the interactivity of the medium. I think a lot of modern games could learn from it. I don't necessary think every game should be like it, but I think it's as valid of a storytelling method for this medium as big cinematic blockbuster stories are, and in some ways could be even more satisfying.

The level design is bonkers. Shooters of this era have a reputation for being big mazes, and Marathon is absolutely an example of that. To steal a phrase from Tim Rogers, the levels in Marathon are "headachy nightmares", and I love it. The map is absolutely a necessity in this. I also think it's really interesting how exploration is rewarded in this game. In many classic-era shooters, health packs are found on the ground. Marathon, though, places healing stations on the walls of specific areas of the levels, and, far as I know, they can never run out of healing. Save consoles are similarly placed throughout, with no manual saving otherwise (no quicksave or quickload, which is very unique for that time). This gives each level a bit of a metroidvania feel, in that you want to remember where the healing stations and save stations are so you can make your way to them when needed.

The only downside (though it's more of a mid-side, it's not really *bad*) is the combat itself. The guns feel great so far (only have two right now). Bungie has a reputation for shooting just feeling good, and I think Marathon shows that they could do that even way back in 1994. But the enemy design is very basic, and so far it's pretty easy to mow them down. It feels like a weird middle ground between a classic shooter and a modern shooter. It doesn't have the precision aim of a modern shooter, but it doesn't have the speed and intensity of something like DOOM. I'm still early on so this could definitely change.

Any Marathon fans here? Are my impressions insane ramblings to you? I'd love to get thoughts from series fans and newcomers alike.
 

devSin

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,205
It really nailed the feeling of fighting your way through an alien-infested ship. The levels are claustrophobic and intricate (lots of corridors and elevation changes).

The gunplay is great, but obviously there's been 30 years of iteration in the genre, so of course it's not going to match current games. The use of physics was really good for the time (there's a lot of grenade hopping and rocket jumping that you can do, and some of the secrets depend on it).

The story as told isn't too complex (more inscrutable than especially deep), but it's told well and really goes off the rails by the third game. As the AIs start to take center stage, the terminal entries will really pick up; it's a wild ride.

The sequel let you dual wield shotguns. Don't sleep on it when it gets released.
 
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Spehornoob

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
9,224
It really nailed the feeling of fighting your way through an alien-infested ship. The levels are claustrophobic and intricate (lots of corridors and elevation changes).

The gunplay is great, but obviously there's been 30 years of iteration in the genre, so of course it's not going to match current games. The use of physics was really good for the time (there's a lot of grenade hopping and rocket jumping that you can do, and some of the secrets depend on it).

The story as told isn't too complex (more inscrutable than especially deep), but it's told well and really goes off the rails by the third game. As the AIs start to take center stage, the terminal entries will really pick up; it's a wild ride.

The sequel let you dual wield shotguns. Don't sleep on it when it gets released.
Oh I definitely plan to check it out. I'm having a great time so far.

I went and revisited the trailer for the new Marathon as well as the thread on reactions to it and now I can definitely more fully understand peoples' trepidation toward the newer game being an extraction shooter. With that said, I do think a PvPvE game like that *could* be an interesting follow up, if the level design is good enough and they pack each area full of environmental storytelling and bits of lore.
 

ArcticWolf

Member
Nov 29, 2022
792
Marathon is great, I love it and while it never got popular enough to completely enter mainstream consciousness like Doom or even System Shock I do think its genuinely important for FPS game design. It occupies this unique table of "Shooters thinking far beyond Doom while Doom was still fresh" with the likes of Skynet, Strife, Outlaws, and Powerslave. I'll add that a lot of what's interesting about Marathon is that it narratively justifies its gaminess (The Marathon is confusing because it's not a built ship but one of Mars' moons hollowed out from mining/ There are so many weapons despite an unarmed crew because the Marathon is actually a Trojan Horse for a coup by old Mars revolutionaries/ The player character is so powerful because... well I'll let you figure that one out) whereas when you get to Infinity and let's just say Infinity revels in being a meta headcase and I love it for that.

Going to say the flaw that most point out is the level Colony Ship For Sale. Cheap! is really a problem with the entire episode of Durandal because most of the problems given have simple instruction text solutions that are just not given because Durandal is just so whacky! LIke Habe Quiddam is rather simple in its solution but two points make it irritating one of which is taking a gamble that an otherwise one way move isn't one way. By contrast the episode after it is considerably simpler and its directions much more straight forward.

By the way if you want a hint on Colony Ship For Sale. Cheap! but don't wanna use grenade jumping: The order of the platform switches indicate in seconds how long they should be engaged when rising from the ground.
 
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Ingueferroque

Banned
Dec 26, 2023
1,786
New York, NY
Nice to see the Steam release bring new players to Marathon. I can't wait for you to experience Marathon 2.
To me, the games only get better with time.
 
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Spehornoob

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
9,224
By the way if you want a hint on Colony Ship For Sale. Cheap! but don't wanna use grenade jumping: The order of the platform switches indicate in seconds how long they should be engaged when rising from the ground.
So I just did this the old fashioned way without knowing about it beforehand and it gave me an achievement lol

You know its a really good idea for a puzzle but who the hell decided the spread the switches throughout the level?
 
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Spehornoob

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
9,224
Finished my first run last night. Really enjoyed it. I think the gameplay hasn't aged well in some respects but the atmosphere and storytelling devices are great. I know there's a ton of lore I missed so I'm gonna try and do a secrets/lore run sometime soon.

Gonna wait for Marathon 2 to hit Steam before I play it because I don't want to burn myself out but I'm really glad I dove into this. I know the upcoming multiplayer game is a bit controversial, but I'm interested in it and I hope they can find a way to throw lore and environmental storytelling into the maps.
 

ascii42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,838
Besides the trilogy, there's an amazing world of custom scenarios, too. Marathon Infinity came with the tools to make them. I never made anything in-depth, but I had fun messing around with making maps back in the day.
 
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Spehornoob

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
9,224
Besides the trilogy, there's an amazing world of custom scenarios, too. Marathon Infinity came with the tools to make them. I never made anything in-depth, but I had fun messing around with making maps back in the day.
Oh man I bet there's some wild fan made scenarios out there.
 

eyeball_kid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,392
Marathon was really ahead of its time in many ways. It was the first or almost first FPS game that I know of that had mouse support for aiming (Duke Nukem came a year later), dynamic lighting (I think), as well as secondary fire modes for weapons. But it was the story and haunting atmosphere that really grabbed me at the time. Glad to hear you had a good time with it.

This first game was not released on Windows back in the day, as Bungie at the time was a Mac-only developer. Sadly, without the eyes of the PC audience on it its breakthroughs weren't really noticed by PC players or other developers until Marathon 2 showed up on Windows 95, and even then it didn't sell well on PC.

Besides the trilogy, there's an amazing world of custom scenarios, too. Marathon Infinity came with the tools to make them. I never made anything in-depth, but I had fun messing around with making maps back in the day.

Not only could you make new levels in Infinity's Forge editor, but you could also modify the weapons and physics. I had some great local LAN sessions with friends using custom weapons.
 
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Spehornoob

Spehornoob

Member
Nov 15, 2017
9,224
I'm not an expert in either Marathon or Halo lore, so I'm talking a bit out of my ass here, but here is one thing I find interesting as a relative noob to both series.

Halo and Marathon share a number of plot points (and I think it was confirmed at one point that Halo was very early on intended to take place in the Marathon universe?). But they have very different tones, and could almost be described as different kinds of sci-fi altogether.

Like, Halo is very Heinlein-esque. Not so much in a fashy way (at least not on surfaceimpression), but it's very militaristic and hoo-rah space marines. It's a war story. Master Chief is a kickass soldier and his violence is generally portrayed as the righteous sort (again, this is my surface level knowledge, I don't know how much deep lore there is that may deconstruct that).

Marathon is pretty grim throughout though. It's more philosophical and is exploring what an evolution of AI could look like. I'd argue there's even some elements of satire in the BoBs. They're the descendants of the poorer folks who couldn't afford to go into Stasis on the Marathon, so they're seen as expendable and they're probably going to get comically turned into bloody messes in the crossfire between the main character and the Phor. In contrast to the Master Chief, the Marathon's main character's penchant for violence just makes him a blunt instrument for the AIs to use for their own ends. I think the terminals also hint at some corporate influence on the setting. It's almost Gibson/Cyberpunk-esque, just without many of the stylistic elements of the genre.

I don't know much about Destiny, but my understanding is that it's more Science Fantasy a la Star Wars. So I guess Bungie just really likes different types of sci-fi.
 
Mar 20, 2018
87
I grew up in a Macintosh house, so yes I was all about Marathon. See my avatar pic for Marathon's predecessor from Bungie - Pathways into Darkness.

I remember using a physics editor for Marathon to show my physics class how the variables altered the mechanics of the game.
 

ArcticWolf

Member
Nov 29, 2022
792
I'm not an expert in either Marathon or Halo lore, so I'm talking a bit out of my ass here, but here is one thing I find interesting as a relative noob to both series.

Halo and Marathon share a number of plot points (and I think it was confirmed at one point that Halo was very early on intended to take place in the Marathon universe?). But they have very different tones, and could almost be described as different kinds of sci-fi altogether.

Like, Halo is very Heinlein-esque. Not so much in a fashy way (at least not on surfaceimpression), but it's very militaristic and hoo-rah space marines. It's a war story. Master Chief is a kickass soldier and his violence is generally portrayed as the righteous sort (again, this is my surface level knowledge, I don't know how much deep lore there is that may deconstruct that).

Marathon is pretty grim throughout though. It's more philosophical and is exploring what an evolution of AI could look like. I'd argue there's even some elements of satire in the BoBs. They're the descendants of the poorer folks who couldn't afford to go into Stasis on the Marathon, so they're seen as expendable and they're probably going to get comically turned into bloody messes in the crossfire between the main character and the Phor. In contrast to the Master Chief, the Marathon's main character's penchant for violence just makes him a blunt instrument for the AIs to use for their own ends. I think the terminals also hint at some corporate influence on the setting. It's almost Gibson/Cyberpunk-esque, just without many of the stylistic elements of the genre.

I don't know much about Destiny, but my understanding is that it's more Science Fantasy a la Star Wars. So I guess Bungie just really likes different types of sci-fi.

Pretty spot on though in a way Marathon is also Heinlein-esque with The Moon is a Harsh Mistress as well. Down to the revolt on Mars against Earth due to unfair economic treatment that basically folds in on itself due to political corruption by the MIDA party going full corrupt autocrats after gaining power (Which is how the TMHM ends too with Libertarians hijacking a Socialist revolt) that also used the colony's AI to assist in the revolution It's revealed in Marathon 2 that Durandal is Traxus which is why he pursued Strauss in Marathon 1.