Lucasfilm executive Pablo Hidalgo apologizes for ‘Star Wars’ controversy, changes his Twitter account (Spoilers for Mando Season 2)

[PeskyToaster]

Honestly, I think adults need the things that are "for kids" a lot more than kids do. Adults forget what it means to be a hero and how to be good human beings to one another. They forget those foundational lessons in morality you find in like Mister Roger's and Star Wars and they desperately need them. I'm sure a lot of people don't like modern Star Wars because they grew up to be the bad guys in the end.

Part of why I like The Last Jedi and The Force Awakens is that I felt they had a good lesson to teach, especially after TLJ evolved that lesson which JJ has always struggled to do in his films. He has moments but they often don't build to anything and I felt like TLJ did a great job building on what it needed to and (quite literally in some cases) tossing other moments off the cliff that weren't going anywhere. I felt it's ruminations on failure, how to learn, how to grow, and how to find your place were quite powerful and really obviously necessary for the fanbase who will probably realize that in at least a few years (or more...or never).

Yep, it's a good thing that the people who love TLJ don't constantly make threads on here about it to relitigate how it's the best movie in the series, etc.

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It shouldn't bother anyone if people are positive about something. It's the relentless negativity that brings everything down. Instead of talking about something you don't like, maybe make a thread about something you do?

 

[TheChungusAmongUs]

That's a real problem with a lot of media, not just Star Wars. Even in something as innocuous as the Persona games, you see fans that played Persona 3 and 4 practically demanding that the playable cast in future games should be adults with adult problems when the series has - and always will - be aimed at the teenage demographic exploring themes relevant to teenagers. Some folks just do not like that franchises they enjoy don't grow up with them, as if they would prefer to rob a new generation of the experiences they themselves enjoyed just so those franchises can continue to cater towards them.

Personally I'd be concerned if franchises did grow up with me because then they'd no longer be the thing I fell in love with and it'd get in the way of new people loving them too. Like if they ever reboot Buffy, I hardly want it to be about a 39 year old Buffy Summers (her age if she was 16 in 1997). She should be sixteen dealing with issues actual sixteen year old kids are dealing with today while still retaining the themes of the original show.

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Hundred percent.

Some people are just incapable of letting something go, even though it is clearly not for them.

 

[TheGummyBear]

Oh cute, you again.

You called her a Mary Sue that is never shown to be in the wrong the moment I raised the possibility of her being right over Luke.

I stand by my crititicsm

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Go through the conversation again, I never called her a Mary Sue. I criticised Dave Filoni's writing in an offhand remark. And it upset you.

And now you're trying to make an alt right scalping campaign seem reasonable. Hmmm. 🤔

 

[Harry Potter Obama]

This thread is somehow more of a trash fire now than the "news" it's about

 

[Fj0823]

Go through the conversation again, I never called her a Mary Sue. I criticised Dave Dave Filoni's writing in an offhand remark. And it upset you.

And now you're trying to make an alt right scalping campaign seem reasonable. Hmmm. 🤔

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Yes you didn't call her a Mary Sue just "A character that is always written to be in the right and without flaws" the moment the discussion turned about maybe her being right all along and Luke being wrong. You dismissed any of the key moments were her weaknesses are explored as "something they had to do just because the movies"

And again, if you have a problem. You can discuss it with me directly. I have been very vocal on my criticism of TFA Rey and her perfectness and have praised TLJ for actually making her feel vulnerable and real. So it's not like I'm trying to act all high and mighty.

 

[DeoGame]

Honestly, I think adults need the things that are "for kids" a lot more than kids do. Adults forget what it means to be a hero and how to be good human beings to one another. They forget those foundational lessons in morality you find in like Mister Roger's and Star Wars and they desperately need them. I'm sure a lot of people don't like modern Star Wars because they grew up to be the bad guys in the end.

Part of why I like The Last Jedi and The Force Awakens is that I felt they had a good lesson to teach, especially after TLJ evolved that lesson which JJ has always struggled to do in his films. He has moments but they often don't build to anything and I felt like TLJ did a great job building on what it needed to and (quite literally in some cases) tossing other moments off the cliff that weren't going anywhere. I felt it's ruminations on failure, how to learn, how to grow, and how to find your place were quite powerful and really obviously necessary for the fanbase who will probably realize that in at least a few years (or more...or never).


It shouldn't bother anyone if people are positive about something. It's the relentless negativity that brings everything down. Instead of talking about something you don't like, maybe make a thread about something you do?

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Funnily enough, I agree with your first point but disagree the ST is the best example. Part of the reason I hate TLJ is it seemingly wanted to make Luke Skywalker into a fallen hero instead of maintaining his heroic traits. I feel we as a society have become too cynical and we sometimes need the Luke Skywalkers/Supermans/Captain Americas of the world without sacrificing their morslity for complexity. Idk.

 

[TheGummyBear]

Yes you didn't call her a Mary Sue just "A character that is always written to be in the right ND without flaws"

And again, if you have a problem. You can discuss it with me directly.

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I have a problem, but it is one that should be public. You tried to label me misogynist for criticising the writing and design work of a man, yet you're busy in this thread defending alt-right bullshit.

 

[LastNac]

I'm sure a lot of people don't like modern Star Wars because they grew up to be the bad guys in the end.

Part of why I like The Last Jedi and The Force Awakens is that I felt they had a good lesson to teach, especially after TLJ evolved that lesson which JJ has always struggled to do in his films. He has moments but they often don't build to anything and I felt like TLJ did a great job building on what it needed to and (quite literally in some cases) tossing other moments off the cliff that weren't going anywhere. I felt it's ruminations on failure, how to learn, how to grow, and how to find your place were quite powerful and really obviously necessary for the fanbase who will probably realize that in at least a few years (or more...or never).

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Absolutely beautiful

 

[lunarworks]

They have failed as adults and use this franchises or others as escape fantasy

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That's a bit harsh. It's more that the present is uncomfortable and disappointing in one way or another, and they want to be wrapped in the comforting blanket of nostalgia as insulation from that.

 

[Fj0823]

I have a problem, but it is one that should be public. You tried to label me misogynist for criticising the writing and design work of a man, yet you're busy in this thread defending alt-right bullshit.

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Wait...WHAT!?

I agree.

But it's clear that YouTuber Dude is using this as a grift to generate drama and revenue by antagonizing LFL instead of wanting a meaningful discussion on toxic masculinity.

He LITERALLY uploaded a video saying that if it was a girl crying over Ahsoka (Girls can't like Luke because he's for boys I guess) she would be celebrated as brave instead of attacked like his poor little ass is.

I don't like what Is Pablo said but it's NOTHING next to the shit this asshole is pulling.

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I'd like to see your receipts on me defending the altright

 

[MarcelloF]

Funnily enough, I agree with your first point but disagree the ST is the best example. Part of the reason I hate TLJ is it seemingly wanted to make Luke Skywalker into a fallen hero instead of maintaining his heroic traits. I feel we as a society have become too cynical and we sometimes need the Luke Skywalkers/Supermans/Captain Americas of the world without sacrificing their morslity for complexity. Idk.

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Luke's struggles make him more heroic.

 

[Hagi]

Go through the conversation again, I never called her a Mary Sue. I criticised Dave Filoni's writing in an offhand remark. And it upset you.

And now you're trying to make an alt right scalping campaign seem reasonable. Hmmm. 🤔

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why do you keep saying alt right when it's just some whiney youtuber fanning the flames for views? This ain't some alt right hate campaign it's someone weaponising his followers for easy drama.

 

[ultracal31]

That's a bit harsh. It's more that the present is uncomfortable and disappointing in one way or another, and they want to be wrapped in the comforting blanket of nostalgia as insulation from that.

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It's harsh yes but it's true

Like have you even looked at these loud mouth vocal 'fans'?

 

[Ryan.]

lol at thinking Star Wars was a dying brand that Mando Season 2 fixed.

Meanwhile Jedi Fallen Order was one of the top sold games of the last year, Battlefront 2 saw a resurgence in players that rivaled its launch numbers, the final season of the Clone Wars received overwhelming positivity, and even one of the worst movies in the franchise to the fans made over a billion dollars.

And that's not even everything.

 

[TheGummyBear]

Wait...WHAT!?

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Your first post in the thread can be boiled down to "Okay, the campaign is bad, but what did he expect after his tweet?"

What was it you said? Oh yeah, I can see what you're doing.

 

[ultracal31]

I'm sure a lot of people don't like modern Star Wars because they grew up to be the bad guys in the end.

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Maybe that's what broke a lot of them and lives in their heads rent free:

 

[Fj0823]

Your first post in the thread can be boiled down to "Okay, the campaign is bad, but what did he expect after his tweet?"

What was it you said? Oh yeah, I can see what you're doing.

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Maybe read the whole thread then.

I agree.

But it's clear now that YouTuber Dude is using this as a grift to generate drama and revenue by antagonizing LFL instead of wanting a meaningful discussion on toxic masculinity.

He LITERALLY uploaded a video saying that if it was a girl crying over Ahsoka (Girls can't like Luke because he's for boys I guess) she would be celebrated as brave instead of attacked like his poor little ass is.

I don't like what Pablo said but it's NOTHING next to the shit this asshole is pulling.

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Done with you.

 

[Veelk]

Funnily enough, I agree with your first point but disagree the ST is the best example. Part of the reason I hate TLJ is it seemingly wanted to make Luke Skywalker into a fallen hero instead of maintaining his heroic traits. I feel we as a society have become too cynical and we sometimes need the Luke Skywalkers/Supermans/Captain Americas of the world without sacrificing their morslity for complexity. Idk.

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I would first point out that I don't feel that Luke belongs in that group. He wasn't some incorruptible ball of pureness overall - he was so blaise about morality in the first film that he was casually suggesting that he'd join the Empire just to get off his boring rock of a planet. He has no problem murdering enemies if they stand in his way, including Vader. His only TRUE objection is that he cannot bring himself to regard his family like that, and even that's negotiable if you push the right buttons on him. He's a decent dude, but not one that is marked as some paragon of incorruptible virtue except in that once incident, but so many people remember him for that one incident that they kind of mythologized him into being that. In contrast, Superman and Cap are written to be moral paragons from inception or atleast that's their modern conceit.

But more importantly, I don't think having these characters as models actually does what people think it does. It doesn't make leaders who are morally incorruptible. It makes leaders who use the image of moral incorruptibleness as a marketing strategy. It happens all over. When I played Ghost of Tsushima, I did a bit of digging on where the cultural mythology of the 'honorable samurai' comes from, and it's not anywhere based in history, but it didn't just come out of nowhere either. It was specifically created by the japanese government as propoganda so that they'd be able to convince their soldiers that the only honorable way to serve their country is to fight to the death. And it just so happens that their core military strategy included having pilots intentionally fly their planes into enemy military points. And that's how it works.

This happens over and over and over and over again. The war in iraq. The Vietnam war. Any time the government wants recruits to fight and die for their conflict, they moralize it. "Don't you want to be a hero?" And they do that because they KNOW that people yearn for a hero figure exactly like you describe, a 'good guy' who doesn't compromise, who has all the answers and is able to win against evil. And then they say "That's us, become one of us and go kill the evil motherfuckers!"

This isn't about realism exactly. I'm not a moral nihilist that thinks there is no true way of being good in the world and I don't think fantasizing about being a hero is something you inherently shouldn't do. But I do know that "Hero" is a myth that has it's hooks deep into the human psyche and it's one that many shitty people prey on. So, more often than not, I am supportive of media that questions, criticizes or even outright denies that.

Maybe heroes, incorruptible good guys in real life exist. Personally, I think they do in some sense. I've met people who I think are genuinely just....good and influence peoples lives in a good way, sometimes even saving them. Idk if that makes them heroes, but I do believe in good people. But it's clear heroes aren't saving the world now and they haven't in many occasions in the past. Instead, what happens more often than not, ghouls go around wearing their faces because they know it's a way to get you to trust them unconditionally. So I'm not telling you to not appreciate heroes. But media that complicates your relationship with them does more good than media that sells you on an uncomplicated fantasy of them.

 

[TheGummyBear]

Maybe read the whole thread.

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I did, and I feel that you gave the youtuber the benefit of the doubt. You went to bat for those out for a scalp, similar to those who went out for James Gunn.

And it isnt a good look for someone who accuses a guy of misogyny over criticism of a character written and designed by men.

 

[PeskyToaster]

Funnily enough, I agree with your first point but disagree the ST is the best example. Part of the reason I hate TLJ is it seemingly wanted to make Luke Skywalker into a fallen hero instead of maintaining his heroic traits. I feel we as a society have become too cynical and we sometimes need the Luke Skywalkers/Supermans/Captain Americas of the world without sacrificing their morslity for complexity. Idk.

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I guess it depends. I don't see him as a fallen hero but as someone who stumbles, learns, and then shows off his true mastery of the Force (which is not cutting down droids or anyone else with a lightsaber, that's padawan stuff). All of those heroes you mentioned have those moments in their history, moments of doubt, weakness, and failure. It's not the lack of those weaknesses that make them heroes but how they overcome or even use those weaknesses to do good. And I believe a hallmark of the OT (which The Last Jedi continues) is that even our teachers and mentors learned from someone else. Luke is now a master but he isn't infallible. Obi-Wan is Luke's wise master but still learns from Yoda and has THE failure for the series in Anakin that he tries to rectify with Luke. Even Yoda, as the wisest master and greatest teacher, allows his pupils to become embroiled in a war, doesn't see the betrayal in their midst, and can't prevent the fall of the Jedi.

I guess I'm not really talking about the youtuber drama at the center of this thread but youtuber drama is like under

 

[Deleted member 7051]

That's a bit harsh. It's more that the present is uncomfortable and disappointing in one way or another, and they want to be wrapped in the comforting blanket of nostalgia as insulation from that.

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This is somewhat important too. These movies are escapism, right? Not all movies are escapism, but Star Wars definitely is. It allows us to turn off all the real world problems we have, to distract ourselves with adventures in a galaxy far, far away.

So it does kinda suck that we already live in such a disappointing world only to find that Star Wars no longer offers refuge from it. Instead, the heroes of our childhood - from a time when life wasn't so crappy - are now themselves living pretty crappy lives, too.

Worse yet they're dying in them. Not in glorious battle or surrounded by loved ones, but quietly and alone. I've barely started my 30s and this franchise, which used to fill me with optimism and hope, is now reminding me of my own mortality and how, when I die, nobody will even notice. You don't think I already know that? I don't need Star Wars reminding me.

 

[Fj0823]

I maintain my position that TLJ Luke is brilliant but TFA didn't create any meaningful background to Luke that makes us feel for his loss or understand him.

Luke just shows up and the movie becomes "And BTW I failed at everything I tried to do after the OT", and works a GREAT story from there

But that's too much to ask for audiences, no different than Alien 3. We needed to come to love that temple, we needed to know Ben and we needed to see this taken away from us so that Luke's fall feels earned and his broken spirit is understandable. "Show don't tell" is the mantra that everyone raised against the prequels yet conviniently forgets here

This was bad enough and I blame TFA for it. But I still thought it was done really well in TLJ

But to me the breaking point was TROS. TROS made it so not only Luke failed after the OT...He failed in the OT. His father's sacrifice? His refusal to fight? Defeating the Emperor? The victory celebration? All according to Sheev's keikaku (note: Keikaku means plan)

And now all his triumphs are hamfisted into Rey, who at this point is barely a character and more a collection of callbacks despite the huge character potential she got from TLJ.

That was the moment I realized I hated the ST. But it certainly wasn't because it tried to be "adult" I've mentioned several instances of heroic characters losing everything or straight up becoming villains that have been very well regarded by modern audiences because they actually do the legwork of making you care for their losses

 

[Deleted member 27771]

Worse yet they're dying in them. Not in glorious battle or surrounded by loved ones, but quietly and alone. I've barely started my 30s and this franchise, which used to fill me with optimism and hope, is now reminding me of my own mortality and how, when I die, nobody will even notice. You don't think I already know that? I don't need Star Wars reminding me.

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Part of getting older is making peace with the above and finding your own path towards it - that's what growing up is.

Retreating to the familiar to coddle you isn't going to do you many favors as you try to navigate adult life.

 

[TheGummyBear]

I maintain my position that TLJ Luke is brilliant but TFA didn't create any meaningful background to Luke that makes us feel for his loss or understand him.

Luke just shows up and the movie becomes "And BTW I failed at everything I tried to do after the ST", and works a GREAT story from there

But that's too much to ask for audiences, no different than Alien 3. We needed to come to love that temple, we needed to know Ben and we needed to see this taken away from us so that Luke's fall feels earned and his broken spirit is understandable. "Show don't tell" is the mantra that everyone raised against the prequels yet conviniently forgets here

This was bad enough and I blame TFA for it. But I still thought it was done really well in TLJ

But to me the breaking point was TROS. TROS made it so not only Luke failed after the OT...He failed in the OT. His father's sacrifice? His refusal to fight? Defeating the Emperor? The victory celebration? All according to Sheev's keikaku (note: Keikaku means plan)

And now all his triumphs are hamfisted into Rey, who at this point is barely a character and more a collection of callbacks despite the huge character potential she got from TLJ.

That was the moment I realized I hated the ST.

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Episode 9 is a disaster, but constant callbacks? No character of their own? Sounds like a Filoni job. Heck, we just had Dark Troopers in Mandalorian.

And it gets away from the point of the thread, Hidalgo was forced to retract a statement making fun of chuds.

 

[MarcelloF]

This is somewhat important too. These movies are escapism, right? Not all movies are escapism, but Star Wars definitely is. It allows us to turn off all the real world problems we have, to distract ourselves with adventures in a galaxy far, far away.

So it does kinda suck that we already live in such a disappointing world only to find that Star Wars no longer offers refuge from it. Instead, the heroes of our childhood - from a time when life wasn't so crappy - are now themselves living pretty crappy lives, too.

Worse yet they're dying in them. Not in glorious battle or surrounded by loved ones, but quietly and alone. I've barely started my 30s and this franchise, which used to fill me with optimism and hope, is now reminding me of my own mortality and how, when I die, nobody will even notice. You don't think I already know that? I don't need Star Wars reminding me.

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I completely disagree. I've had plenty of failures and struggles in my life, seeing Luke fuck up so badly and still eventually overcome it and be a hero is much more inspiring than otherwise. TLJ's themes of learning from failure instead of letting it bring you down are great and important, especially for kids.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

I maintain my position that TLJ Luke is brilliant but TFA didn't create any meaningful background to Luke that makes us feel for his loss or understand him.

Luke just shows up and the movie becomes "And BTW I failed at everything I tried to do after the ST", and works a GREAT story from there

But that's too much to ask for audiences, no different than Alien 3. We needed to come to love that temple, we needed to know Ben and we needed to see this taken away from us so that Luke's fall feels earned and his broken spirit is understandable. "Show don't tell" is the mantra that everyone raised against the prequels yet conviniently forgets here

This was bad enough and I blame TFA for it. But I still thought it was done really well in TLJ

But to me the breaking point was TROS. TROS made it so not only Luke failed after the OT...He failed in the OT. His father's sacrifice? His refusal to fight? Defeating the Emperor? All according to Sheev's keikaku (note: Keikaku means plan)

That was the moment I realized I hated the ST.

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This is honestly one of the reasons why I liked seeing Luke show up in The Mandalorian and hope we see a lot more of him in the future. Going from Return of the Jedi to The Last Jedi is a pretty dramatic and very sudden shift with absolutely no real explanation. One minute he's about to rebuild the Jedi Order, the next he's living on a rock in the middle of nowhere waiting to die and take the Jedi Order with him.

Having Luke appear in material set between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens will allow us to see Luke, through his many struggles across the decades, build the Jedi Order that we know he will eventually lose. The more invested we are in what he creates, the more his inevitable loss of it will resonate.

Lucasfilm needs to show us how Luke ended up on Ahch-To, not just tell us that he did.

 

[Lifejumper]

I completely disagree. I've had plenty of failures and struggles in my life, seeing Luke fuck up so badly and still eventually overcome it and be a hero is much more inspiring than otherwise. TLJ's themes of learning from failure instead of letting it bring you down are great and important, especially for kids.

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ding ding ding ding

 

[Fj0823]

This is honestly one of the reasons why I liked seeing Luke show up in The Mandalorian and hope we see a lot more of him in the future. Going from Return of the Jedi to The Last Jedi is a pretty dramatic and very sudden shift with absolutely no real explanation. One minute he's about to rebuild the Jedi Order, the next he's living on a rock in the middle of nowhere waiting to die and take the Jedi Order with him.

Having Luke appear in material set between Return of the Jedi and The Force Awakens will allow us to see Luke, through his many struggles across the decades, build the Jedi Order that we know he will eventually lose. The more invested we are in what he creates, the more his inevitable loss of it will resonate.

Lucasfilm needs to show us how Luke ended up on Ahch-To, not just tell us that he did.

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Agreed 100%

I want Luke to have his own set of accomplishments given the current state of affairs. If he, for example takes down Thrawn and delays the resurrection of the Empire, no one can take that from him. Same as him training Grogu

It makes the whole ST much more palatable. I want Luke as a character to be more than "The dude who failed at everything he set out to do but died buying time for Rey to succeed in the exact same endeavors".

With all these said, anyone who wants to "erase" the ST can FOH, that's not how Star Wars rolls

 

[TheGummyBear]

I completely disagree. I've had plenty of failures and struggles in my life, seeing Luke fuck up so badly and still eventually overcome it and be a hero is much more inspiring than otherwise. TLJ's themes of learning from failure instead of letting it bring you down are great and important, especially for kids.

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Exactly. As someone on the autism spectrum, my feelings of guilt can be extremely intense. And yet TLJ Luke suggested that we can make up for our failures, be the better person.

I connected to that depression and aspire to that redemption.

 

[ultracal31]

Exactly. As someone on the autism spectrum, my feelings of guilt can be extremely intense. And yet TLJ Luke suggested that we can make up for our failures, be the better person.

I connected to that depression and aspire to that redemption.

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my buddy who's really into the old EU still maintains "luke wouldn't do -blank-!" despite the fact TLJ literally spells out what happened and why

 

[lunarworks]

I would first point out that I don't feel that Luke belongs in that group. He wasn't some incorruptible ball of pureness overall - he was so blaise about morality in the first film that he was casually suggesting that he'd join the Empire just to get off his boring rock of a planet. He has no problem murdering enemies if they stand in his way, including Vader. His only TRUE objection is that he cannot bring himself to regard his family like that, and even that's negotiable if you push the right buttons on him. He's a decent dude, but not one that is marked as some paragon of incorruptible virtue except in that once incident, but so many people remember him for that one incident that they kind of mythologized him into being that. In contrast, Superman and Cap are written to be moral paragons from inception or atleast that's their modern conceit.

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This right here is why Luke is such a good self-insert for those fans. He's just a completely average nerdy dude who gets caught in the whirlwind of fate and goes on an epic adventure.

This is somewhat important too. These movies are escapism, right? Not all movies are escapism, but Star Wars definitely is. It allows us to turn off all the real world problems we have, to distract ourselves with adventures in a galaxy far, far away.

So it does kinda suck that we already live in such a disappointing world only to find that Star Wars no longer offers refuge from it. Instead, the heroes of our childhood - from a time when life wasn't so crappy - are now themselves living pretty crappy lives, too.

Worse yet they're dying in them. Not in glorious battle or surrounded by loved ones, but quietly and alone. I've barely started my 30s and this franchise, which used to fill me with optimism and hope, is now reminding me of my own mortality and how, when I die, nobody will even notice. You don't think I already know that? I don't need Star Wars reminding me.

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Sure, you don't need Star Wards reminding you, but to react so badly to that reminder as some fans have shows there's underlying personal issues that need to be addressed.

Hell, my life hasn't turned out the way that I expected. There have been times when I just wanted to run away from it all. I've shut out people and places from my life. So, I look at Luke more sympathetically in that regard.

 

[Veelk]

I completely disagree. I've had plenty of failures and struggles in my life, seeing Luke fuck up so badly and still eventually overcome it and be a hero is much more inspiring than otherwise. TLJ's themes of learning from failure instead of letting it bring you down are great and important, especially for kids.

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There are a few cyberpunk (the genre, not the game) essays I've seen around where the writer has noted that traditional, common sense writer rules say that the person with the most agency is the one the audience relates to. But (atleast in regards to talking about capitalism, as the cyberpunk genre does) the characters who are trapped within their fates are the ones who we feel there is a connection to. Because in real life, we don't choose the fate of the world, atleast not on our own.

And to move this in the greater fiction catergory, what we now consider a well rounded character was in the past considered an anti-hero. Not that they were of questionable morals, but that they were not, effectively, perfect. Like, spider-man used to be considered a MASSIVE anti-hero because he had so many problems, from being bullied to having to pay rent to not saving Gwen, but now if someone used that term to describe spider man now, they'd be like "no, spider-man's just a straight hero, anti-heroes are like the punisher and shit"

I think it's just a straight fact of life that we do not relate to idealized heroes, not because people are morally compromised necessarily, but because no one person has any more of a grasp on life than anyone else. Everyone fucks up and stumbles and fails and those that say they don't talk out their ass.

If you want to tell a real story, you have to acknowledge that, I think.

 

[Fj0823]

This right here is why Luke is such a good self-insert for those fans. He's just a completely average nerdy dude who gets caught in the whirlwind of fate and goes on an epic adventure.

Sure, you don't need Star Wards reminding you, but to react so badly to that reminder as some fans have shows there's underlying personal issues that need to be addressed.

Hell, my life hasn't turned out the way that I expected. There have been times when I just wanted to run away from it all. I've shut out people and places from my life. So, I look at Luke more sympathetically in that regard.

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Agreed, execution aside, the absolute ADORATION these types demand for their childhood heroes is disgusting.

If there is one fucking talking point I detest is the whole "disrespects the character". Like they want the writing , the narrative , the characters all to "respect" a character because their deeds should be deified and they will go to extreme lenghts to defend the "honor" of a fictional character including going after real humans.

We saw it with TLOU2. Hell remember when Dragon Ball had those female Saiyans from an alternate universe that had no way of knowing Goku talked back to him and told him he wasn't shit? That was some really nasty BS cause"those disrespectful bitches should know who they're talking to", made my blood boil.

Also, If any character was disrespected by these movies it was my boy Finn ):

 

[Deleted member 7051]

I completely disagree. I've had plenty of failures and struggles in my life, seeing Luke fuck up so badly and still eventually overcome it and be a hero is much more inspiring than otherwise. TLJ's themes of learning from failure instead of letting it bring you down are great and important, especially for kids.

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Except he didn't overcome anything. He died, alone, on the rock he claimed as his grave. The Jedi Order was gone, everything he thought he had ever accomplished was in truth a failure. The Empire never fell, Palpatine never died... everything he had ever done was, ultimately, meaningless. Even his death achieved nothing but give the Resistance a few extra minutes to escape. It was nice seeing Luke be more like himself by the end of The Last Jedi, but the sequel trilogy is easily the most cynical direction you could have ever taken Luke Skywalker as a character and I don't see how that's meant to be inspiring at all. It's not even just Luke, either. Han goes back to being a smuggler instead of making more of himself and the Republic that Leia helped bring back wanted nothing to do with her. All three of them would die alone, never having achieved the thing they had hoped they would. Literally the only person from the original trilogy who succeeded at life was Lando.

 

[Hagi]

There are a few cyberpunk (the genre, not the game) essays I've seen around where the writer has noted that traditional, common sense writer rules say that the person with the most agency is the one the audience relates to. But (atleast in regards to talking about capitalism, as the cyberpunk genre does) the characters who are trapped within their fates are the ones who we feel there is a connection to. Because in real life, we don't choose the fate of the world, atleast not on our own.

And to move this in the greater fiction catergory, what we now consider a well rounded character was in the past considered an anti-hero. Not that they were of questionable morals, but that they were not, effectively, perfect. Like, spider-man used to be considered a MASSIVE anti-hero because he had so many problems, from being bullied to having to pay rent to not saving Gwen, but now if someone used that term to describe spider man now, they'd be like "no, spider-man's just a straight hero, anti-heroes are like the punisher and shit"

I think it's just a straight fact of life that we do not relate to idealized heroes, not because people are morally compromised necessarily, but because no one person has any more of a grasp on life than anyone else. Everyone fucks up and stumbles and fails and those that say they don't talk out their ass.

If you want to tell a real story, you have to acknowledge that, I think.

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This is why Peter resonates with people so much in that he's just as messed up as everybody else but rises above that to do whatever he can to help people often to his detriment.

It'a kind of why I think the escapism argument some fans use is weird because you don't need some paragon of virtue perfect character as the focal point of Star Wars like they want. Luke has been deified to fit that role but like you said earlier he wasn't really like that in the original trilogy.

 

[Veelk]

Agreed, execution aside, the absolute ADORATION these types demand for their childhood heroes is disgusting.

If there is one fucking talking point I detest is the whole "disrespects the character". Like they want the writing , the narrative , the characters all to "respect" a character because their deeds should be deified and they will go to extreme lenghts to defend the "honor" of a fictional character including going after real humans.

We saw it with TLOU2. Hell remember when those female Saiyans from an alternate universe that had no way of knowing Goku talked back to him and told him he wasn't shit? That was some really nasty shit since "those bitches should know who they're talking to"

If any character was disrespected by these movies it was my boy Finn ):

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They way I think of it is that it is a fundamental misuse of fiction.

We aren't meant to 'respect' like they're real people who accomplished real deeds because they aren't and they haven't. They're puppets we animate to tell us a story. And while there is a part of our lizard brain that can't tell the difference between real life and fiction, we still have to know it is different and understand our use of fiction that way.

If you want to 'respect' a fictional character, you don't do it by giving them easy wins where they can relish their victories and be happy. That's not respecting them, that's just fellacioing the fans of them.

You do it by creating a meaningful story around them. To use your TLoU2 example, Joel's character was respected by having the consequences of his actions in the last game be so fully realized that he is an ever present ghost in the main character's life throughout the whole game, regardless of his physical presence there. That's respect.

 

[Fj0823]

They way I think of it is that it is a fundamental misuse of fiction.

We aren't meant to 'respect' like they're real people who accomplished real deeds because they aren't and they haven't. They're puppets we animate to tell us a story. And while there is a part of our lizard brain that can't tell the difference between real life and fiction, we still have to know it is different and understand our use of fiction that way.

If you want to 'respect' a fictional character, you don't do it by giving them easy wins where they can relish their victories and be happy. That's not respecting them, that's just fellacioing the fans of them.

You do it by creating a meaningful story around them. To use your TLoU2 example, Joel's character was respected by having the consequences of his actions in the last game be so fully realized that he is an ever present ghost in the main character's life throughout the whole game, regardless of his physical presence there. That's respect.

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Perfectly said.

 

[AnimaRize]

Yep, it's a good thing that the people who love TLJ don't constantly make threads on here about it to relitigate how it's the best movie in the series, etc.

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is this sarcasm

 

[lunarworks]

Except he didn't overcome anything. He died, alone, on the rock he claimed as his grave. The Jedi Order was gone, everything he thought he had ever accomplished was in truth a failure. The Empire never fell, Palpatine never died... everything he had ever done was, ultimately, meaningless. Even his death achieved nothing but give the Resistance a few extra minutes to escape. It was nice seeing Luke be more like himself by the end of The Last Jedi, but the sequel trilogy is easily the most cynical direction you could have ever taken Luke Skywalker as a character and I don't see how that's meant to be inspiring at all. It's not even just Luke, either. Han goes back to being a smuggler instead of making more of himself and the Republic that Leia helped bring back wanted nothing to do with her. All three of them would die alone, never having achieved the thing they had hoped they would. Literally the only person from the original trilogy who succeeded at life was Lando.

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If that's your takeaway, then it's a very shallow takeaway painted by a need for physical accomplishments. You said it right there, he gave them time to escape. Self-sacrifice for the survival of the next generation. That is a phenomenally noble action. His legend also spread throughout the galaxy after that event, inspiring people with mythologized versions of his feats. The idea of such feats being accomplished through the force even began to awaken the force in others. Unfortunately, that extremely rich vein of possibilities was completely ignored by JJ, who retreated into "Lightsaber go WHRRRR!" territory.

 

[Fj0823]

If that's your takeaway, then it's a very shallow takeaway painted by a need for physical accomplishments. You said it right there, he gave them time to escape. Self-sacrifice for the survival of the next generation. That is a phenomenally noble action. His legend also spread throughout the galaxy after that event, inspiring people with mythologized versions of his feats. The idea of such feats being accomplished through the force even began to awaken the force in others. Unfortunately, that extremely rich vein of possibilities was completely ignored by JJ, who retreated into "Lightsaber go WHRRRR!" territory.

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I'm firmly in the

Camp regarding personal character victories and styling over some fools

 

[Hagi]

is this sarcasm

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the need to ask this is funny given the topic of the thread

 

[AnimaRize]

Exactly. As someone on the autism spectrum, my feelings of guilt can be extremely intense. And yet TLJ Luke suggested that we can make up for our failures, be the better person.

I connected to that depression and aspire to that redemption.

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My take away was different from yours because the full message that now lukes full story gives, is it doesn't matter if you try to be better, it doesn't matter if you try to make the world the world a better place, it doesn't matter if you try for anything better, because by the end you will grow old, bitter alone, no family, no friends, no spouse, no children and you will actively shove people away and they will care about you and the stuff you did after you die alone away from everyone you love. That is what lukes story is thanks to tlj.

the need to ask this is funny given the topic of the thread

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sarcasm isn't that easy to determine in written form, especially when it comes to that movie

 

[Veelk]

If that's your takeaway, then it's a very shallow takeaway painted by a need for physical accomplishments. You said it right there, he gave them time to escape. Self-sacrifice for the survival of the next generation. That is a phenomenally noble action. His legend also spread throughout the galaxy after that event, inspiring people with mythologized versions of his feats. The idea of such feats being accomplished through the force even began to awaken the force in others. Unfortunately, that extremely rich vein of possibilities was completely ignored by JJ, who retreated into "Lightsaber go WHRRRR!" territory.

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It's worth noting that one of the recurring themes of the movie is 'Hope' which people need to believe in. It says people need to do it even when they have no reason to, but it's hardest to do so then. That's why the Resistance, when they made it into the hide out planet, tried to call for help and their message got through...but no one responded because they didn't have a reason to believe.

Luke becoming a legend that motivates people to stand to the first order is effectively the answer to the Resistance's problem. If the next movie had been made with TLJ's set up in mind, the Resistance would have survived not just because it was saved both physically by Luke and Rey, but the legends of Luke and Rey would inspire people to rise up. The next time the Resistance called for help, they would be answered because the galaxy had the legends of Luke to believe in.

But yeah, sure, he didn't go fwoosh-fwoosh with the laser sword and take out the Walkers or whatever the fuck their called, so who cares about that shit.

 

[Deleted member 7051]

This is why Peter resonates with people so much in that he's just as messed up as everybody else but rises above that to do whatever he can to help people often to his detriment.

It'a kind of why I think the escapism argument some fans use is weird because you don't need some paragon of virtue perfect character as the focal point of Star Wars like they want. Luke has been deified to fit that role but like you said earlier he wasn't really like that in the original trilogy.

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I don't think anyone ever wanted a "virtue perfect character" out of Luke in the sequel trilogy and him turning his back on the galaxy is actually fine, but it wasn't written well. Mark Hamill's portrayal of a Luke Skywalker that had given up was fantastic, but we weren't shown how he got there and the sequel trilogy went out of its way to really dig the screws in by telling us he never actually did anything we thought he did. It's one thing to deconstruct the legend but another thing entirely to tell us the legend was built on a lie. It wasn't just that he had lost the Jedi Order he tried so hard to rebuild, it was his own actions that cost him it. It would've been better if Luke had been off-world somewhere when Ben showed up with the Knights of Ren and killed everyone, y'know?

You mention Peter Parker, but would people be happy if he walked into Miles Morales' room in the middle of the night with a loaded gun while he was sleeping and fired off a round? No. Yet if you properly wrote a story about something happening to Peter Parker that made him just give up on being Spiderman, as he has done in the past, people would love it. They did that in the Raimi movies, remember? Peter asking "What about what I want? Don't I get to be happy?" hit pretty hard, but in the end he realised he has the power to help others and not using it would be wrong.

 

[Ryan.]

Whoever keeps defending SW Theory after now going on Geeks and Gamers is just going to the get the side eye from a lot of people here from now on

 

[AnimaRize]

It's worth noting that one of the recurring themes of the movie is 'Hope' which people need to believe in. It says people need to do it even when they have no reason to, but it's hardest to do so then. That's why the Resistance, when they made it into the hide out planet, tried to call for help and their message got through...but no one responded because they didn't have a reason to believe.

Luke becoming a legend that motivates people to stand to the first order is effectively the answer to the Resistance's problem. If the next movie had been made with TLJ's set up in mind, the Resistance would have survived not just because it was saved both physically by Luke and Rey, but the legends of Luke and Rey would inspire people to rise up. The next time the Resistance called for help, they would be answered because the galaxy had the legends of Luke to believe in.

But yeah, sure, he didn't go fwoosh-fwoosh with the laser sword and take out the Walkers or whatever the fuck their called, so who cares about that shit.

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i don't care if he took out the sword and started destroying walkers, his kylo ren confrontation is fine, the story of what it means to get that is the problem tlj negated everything luke did everything luke was and why he was so inspirational to begin with to have that moment, the luke we get in the movie is bitter alone with no accomplishments, he as didn't recreate a better jedi order, he didn't bing peace to the galaxy he didn't make the galaxy better despite fighting. luke is the last jedi in 30 years he had no other students that completed his training and went to make the galaxy better before kylo killed or corrupted them all. The republic he fought so hard restore is destroyed the empire is worse than it has ever been. that is issue

 

[ultracal31]

Whoever keeps defending SW Theory after now going on Geeks and Gamers is just going to the get the side eye from a lot of people here from now on

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I do believe he tried to defend them as "they were always nice to ME!" when he was on here

he knows what they are and still grift cause that's who he is

 

[Deleted member 7051]

If that's your takeaway, then it's a very shallow takeaway painted by a need for physical accomplishments. You said it right there, he gave them time to escape. Self-sacrifice for the survival of the next generation. That is a phenomenally noble action. His legend also spread throughout the galaxy after that event, inspiring people with mythologized versions of his feats. The idea of such feats being accomplished through the force even began to awaken the force in others. Unfortunately, that extremely rich vein of possibilities was completely ignored by JJ, who retreated into "Lightsaber go WHRRRR!" territory.

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Right. You can wax poetic all you like but it doesn't actually matter what you or Rian Johnson hoped Luke's sacrifice would mean because, in the end, it didn't mean anything. That's the reality of it, that Luke's big moment at the end of The Last Jedi achieved nothing. In a way that's rather in-keeping with the lessons and themes presented before Rise of Skywalker even came out, insofar as what we hope would happen isn't what will really happen and reality is so often disappointing.

 

[MarcelloF]

Whoever keeps defending SW Theory after now going on Geeks and Gamers is just going to the get the side eye from a lot of people here from now on

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I love that Kathleen Kennedy is in the thumbnail, despite having nothing to do with this. The glowing red eyes really bring it home. It's complete self-parody at this point.

 

[AnimaRize]

I don't think anyone ever wanted a "virtue perfect character" out of Luke in the sequel trilogy and him turning his back on the galaxy is actually fine, but it wasn't written well. Mark Hamill's portrayal of a Luke Skywalker that had given up was fantastic, but we weren't shown how he got there and the sequel trilogy went out of its way to really dig the screws in by telling us he never actually did anything we thought he did. It's one thing to deconstruct the legend but another thing entirely to tell us the legend was built on a lie. It wasn't just that he had lost the Jedi Order he tried so hard to rebuild, it was his own actions that cost him it. It would've been better if Luke had been off-world somewhere when Ben showed up with the Knights of Ren and killed everyone, y'know?

You mention Peter Parker, but would people be happy if he walked into Miles Morales' room in the middle of the night with a loaded gun while he was sleeping and fired off a round? No. Yet if you properly wrote a story about something happening to Peter Parker that made him just give up on being Spiderman, as he has done in the past, people would love it. They did that in the Raimi movies, remember? Peter asking "What about what I want? Don't I get to be happy?" hit pretty hard, but in the end he realised he has the power to help others and not using it would be wrong.

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you've hit the nail on the head