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Macron scolds teenager for calling him “Manu” instead of “Mr President”
- Thread starter ZiggyPalffyLA
- Start date
It's uncivil to address people you don't know by cute little nicknames, I don't know how hard this is to grasp. (And I doubt it's that much different in the US)
If the kid had called him "Monsieur" and Macron had the same reaction, then we could talk, but "Manu" really ? If a random person did the same thing to me I would seriously raise my eyebrows. We're not buddies.
I don't think I'd have been as polite to any conservative elected official in the UK. Cameron and May would both get only foulness from me and if I ever see Trump in person he'd get the worst
I didn't know we had so many French people here. I assumed this thread would die quickly due to it's lack of relevance. But maybe everyone just believes that etiquette should be universal across cultures (Japanese threads will be interesting...)
I mean, personally I find it weird how Americans use "Mr President" (it just sounds odd to me to substitute President where a proper surname should be). I doubt people would get upset and make a 10+ page thread if "Dubya" Bush had corrected a kid for using that nickname, so why get upset at Macron?
French has a requirement for understanding formality built-in to it's language with the tu/vous stuff. It's up to them to decide what is polite and what is pompous formality.
I mean, personally I find it weird how Americans use "Mr President" (it just sounds odd to me to substitute President where a proper surname should be). I doubt people would get upset and make a 10+ page thread if "Dubya" Bush had corrected a kid for using that nickname, so why get upset at Macron?
French has a requirement for understanding formality built-in to it's language with the tu/vous stuff. It's up to them to decide what is polite and what is pompous formality.
Some American members here on ERA (and on GAF in the past) always need to tell foreigners the best way to do things, even though they're completely ignorant about the other persons culture. Because 'everyone' knows that the best way is, of course, the way Americans do things. American exceptionalism is so deeply ingrained in them that they don't seem to realise what they're doing.
I wouldn't say they don't teach politeness, they just have a different concept. There's no distinction between a formal and informal you like there is in French (vous/tu) or German (Sie/du). Also, it's more common to address people by their first name rather than by Mr./Mrs. X over there. I would never say du to a person I've just met, especially when they're older than me and/or a person of authority (teacher, professor, boss, head of state,...), unless they offer it. It's something different when talking about them and they're not present, though.
But I wouldn't call Macron Mr. President or Merkel Mrs. Chancellor but Mr. Macron/Mrs. Merkel. It's always fun when people try to explain your culture to you or why the way you do something in your country is wrong, though.
Yes, I agree, I wouldn't call them by the titles either, but I wouldn't just go "Hey Angie!".
Seems like people are conflating respect to a person you don't personally know to respect to a "superior" figure.
You use Mr/Mrs and « vous » to any person you don't personally know, regardless of where they're from.
For exemple my middle school teachers used to say « vous » to their students because we're not friends, there's a level of distance between the two. Same with your cashier or someone you just met.
It has nothing to do with being authoritarian, just basic courtesy etiquette.
You use Mr/Mrs and « vous » to any person you don't personally know, regardless of where they're from.
For exemple my middle school teachers used to say « vous » to their students because we're not friends, there's a level of distance between the two. Same with your cashier or someone you just met.
It has nothing to do with being authoritarian, just basic courtesy etiquette.
I live in France. Like others have said, "vous" is in the language for addressing people you don't know personally or for keeping things formal or for addressing more than one person.
Even if Macron is in the process of arse fucking us all here, you still don't address people that you don't know like that in France. You don't say "ca va manu" to someone that you don't know.
Even if Macron is in the process of arse fucking us all here, you still don't address people that you don't know like that in France. You don't say "ca va manu" to someone that you don't know.
i don't mind the correction, it's basic courtesy in the french language.... What i do mind is posting it on twitter and showing it to everyone was reaaaaally stupid, that's the asshole part here! The teenager was maybe a bit dumb but macron is way worse in my point of view!
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How much of this thread is Americans projecting hard on one president because they can't stand their own. On second thought, didn't need the modifier.
"politician worship" Over fucking formal titles? Really. Guys, being a bit rude doesn't make you or the teen revolutionaries, let's get serious.
"politician worship" Over fucking formal titles? Really. Guys, being a bit rude doesn't make you or the teen revolutionaries, let's get serious.
I saw this more as the kid trying to provoke Macron. He was singing the socialist anthem and called him Manu in a kind of mocking way, during a comemmoration of an incredibly important event for France in WW2. It's understandable that a president wouldn't take that shit lightly.
Meanwhile the pussy grabbing Cheeto exists and is embarrassing the American nation (heck, the world) at any given moment.
This? Don't even care to comment.
This? Don't even care to comment.
Personally I think Macron could have scored easy PR win points for being cool and relaxed with the younger generation. Being polite is important in Europe But Macron could have shown humility and understand that this is just a kid that wanted to try something cool. Doesn't matter if he sings a revolution song or anything. He can play along his approach with using Manu will still correcting him slightly and telling him to keep it in mind in the future. After that he could go back to the ceremony and be "President". Seems to me like he was too cold hearted and didn't understand how he could have used this situation.
"Manu" isn't even a bad nickname, things like this garner you a lot of points with the people you rule, make you seem approachable, friendly and close to the people.
The posting was over the top too and people already posted an article on how the kid now doesn't want to go do school because he gets bullied because of it. To me it makes look Macron like a bad ruler who doesn't understands the people he rules... .
"Manu" isn't even a bad nickname, things like this garner you a lot of points with the people you rule, make you seem approachable, friendly and close to the people.
The posting was over the top too and people already posted an article on how the kid now doesn't want to go do school because he gets bullied because of it. To me it makes look Macron like a bad ruler who doesn't understands the people he rules... .
Really the correcion is not really that horrible, it's the basics. As a president you're meant to show some authority to have the title respected. People would think he's weak if any little brat can defy him and be all "sup dude", that's standard.
Now where the douche bag macron personality show its truth, is when he adds the little thing about making a living and all. Even before he tweeted about it. There is a difference between correcting a cocky kid and giving him an humiliating lesson in front of tvs.
Now where the douche bag macron personality show its truth, is when he adds the little thing about making a living and all. Even before he tweeted about it. There is a difference between correcting a cocky kid and giving him an humiliating lesson in front of tvs.
That depends entirely on culture and is not uniform in all of Europe.
Everybody found it normal to address our university professors by first name in Barcelona but you should see the faces of people during my year in France when I accidentally did the same. You would think I was stabbing the guy to death. Coincidentally the guy's name was Guy. :P
And we share a border so it's not like we are in totally opposite parts of the continent.
Obviously not a negative statement or anything, don't take it the wrong way. A lot of European language have polite forms to address others in higher positions. In the end it was bad form all around from Macron and it hurt the kid. Should have been much cooler and relaxed with a kid. I could maybe understand someone that is 25+ or whatever but the kid is 14. We had nicknames based on behavior for our teachers around that age, never malicious but it was still good fun.
I did the same, first name with teachers and professors, not all but a lot, it often just depends on what they like. It certainly isn't bad to be close to the people you are teaching.
Teaching him is okay, but he went about it the wrong way. Just looks bad if you are in a ruling position.
They come in all types. Lotta jaded lifers in my school for sure as I m sure public University didn't t pay awesome. One of them even told the entire class that he was a misathrope. Nice dude all around that one.
Of course. Catalan does have formal and informal forms of speech like French. The differences is that here we only use formal for people we don't know or for the elderly. Use formal to speak to someone you know who is under 60 and they'll look at you weird even if they sit higher than you in whatever hierarchy both persons are in.
Conversely, it's the opposite in French where you are supposed to vouvoyer almost everyone unless given permission to do otherwise and last names are the norm instead of first names.
It's just curious that being neighbours we have such a different view on the same aspect of language.
If I ever become President I'll just have everyone refer to me as Senpai.
Spain's manners being shit doesn't excuse it. I've heard collegues adress the Dean or the head of a department they didn't know by their first name or nickname..
Showing some respect isn't that hard, specially in languages like french, spanish or german which have specific words to do it.
This happening in France I don't disagree that a degree of formality is expected. Monsieur En Marche could have corrected the kid without acting like an asshole, though.
I wasn't speaking about Spanish manners, either. And here informality is not considered bad manners, no matter your view on it.
Of course it's bad manners, even if the students don't do it. I've been in a university in Bcn too, and in catalan you have both
vostè and vos.
Using formal pronouns is expected in certain circumstances , be it at the university or addressing the Head of state.
Kinda seems like this might a reason why some think "The French are stuck up" or something along those lines. I have heard people saying something like this.
Can't get over hit how people forget that the kid is 14, would it be different if he was like 10 or 25?
Personally there is a time and space for polite space. Sometimes being more casual will benefit you more then being cold, distanced and very polite. Choose the right thing for the right situation.
You are entitled to your opinion. In mine, it's not bad manners here to be informal. It has nothing to do with being a student. Nobody uses formal language among coworkers. There's plenty of customers that will tell you to stop addressing them formally.
I do know vos and vostè exist. After all, I'm the official maintainer of a Catalan language package for a piece of FOSS and the use of vos when addressing the user in a computer program is the agreed upon standard.
There is a bit of truth to what you are saying but it's a misunderstanding from their part. French people are not cold for using vous and last names. And when a foreigner uses tu or a first name in France does not mean they are being purposefully impolite, usually they are just not used to the local mores.
Not really.
Maybe if he was like 5 or something but as soon as you're in school people expect that you address others in a fitting way. It's not like people get mad but they may tell you to use the formal pronoun when addressing them from now on.
That has nothing to do with being "stuck up" it's just the way it is in some countries.
Exactly this.
That said, yes, this part was kind of dickish/petty. I don't disagree with people objecting to that part.
But a lot people in this thread don't even go there and just object to the simple concept of civility or etiquette to begin with, and frankly, that just seems childish to me. Do they call their teachers or their bosses "bro" or something? Hell, I call my bosses by their first names, but I wouldn't call them by cute nicknames (like calling him "Patty" if his name was Patrick or something), it's common politeness.
I generally agree but I have a curious anecdote. I was talking to my boss regarding a meeting we were about to have with one of our customers and she used a nickname for one of our customer's bosses (let's use your Patty example for convenience).
So I asked her, "Are you friends with him?" and she responded "No, but everyone calls him Patty. I'm not entirely sure but I've heard he doesn't like the name Patrick so be sure to call him Patty." and I was like "LOL, OK?". Patty turned out to be a great guy who was very affable but you can bet I never called him Patrick. :D
He even used Patty for his corporate email address.