MafiEra Review Season 20 |OT| Townie hindsight is 20/20

Sawneeks · Aug 19, 2021

Welcome again to our season-ending review thread! Our review threads are here to discuss the current state of our community and what we want to see changed, altered, or fixed in order to make our games even better for everyone. We have a few points we want to bring up below but please feel free to add anything else you feel is important! But first, thank you to our gamerunners this season!

Thank you:

Transistor GOTY Mafia by Aeleus
Mystery Mafia by lokiduck & Verelios
Scooby-Doo 2 Mafia by Aeleus
Fantasy Star Mafia by MrHedin
Fate/Mafia: Mafioso by lokiduck & Verelios

A reminder that mafia is a time commitment for players and especially gamerunners. If you're unsure if you'll be able to commit to a game fully - just wait! We always have more games coming.
Should we have stricter rules on punishing players for not stopping when a turbo is reached even if the gamerunner is not yet present? How about players who knowingly post after day end?
Should we make a new/bigger reminder about NOT posting Role PMs anywhere unless a gamerunner says it's OK? As an example, should the gamerunner say in the first post of an OM thread (Scum, Lovers, Masons, etc.) if role PMs are allowed to be posted and have this be the default?
Should we increase the sign up window to 72 hours instead of 42 hours? We don't want gamerunners to feel rushed to get sign ups and there have been times where players miss the window of sign ups by 24 hours.
Just as a small community update, MafiEra moderators will take additional steps to intervene on problematic, repeated behavior in games. We don't believe this will be an issue but it's something we want to clarify.

Review threads for games will still be public by default. If a gamerunner wishes to keep their notes/designs private they are more than welcome to do so. It will simply be an opt-in choice.
We will be making a 'quick rules' for new players that highlights a handful of rules in the hopes it curbs our recent rise in Modkills.
We will also be making a default template for role PMs to be used by future games that includes highlighting when a role has the potential for being Modkilled.

In addition to the Permament Replacement List we also have a Notification List for upcoming games! If you would like to be tagged whenever a game sign up begins or you would like to be a replacement for all games you don't play/spectate, please let myself, Aeleus, Dr. Monkey, or cabot know! :>

Permanent Replacements; weemadarthur, TheChuggernaut, lokiduck, Faddy, Zippedpinhead, Reki, jman1954goat, MrHedin

Notification List; Leo, Koldanar, IfGodCouldDie

Who's there?

Dad who?

As we take a Thing to space with some robots on thursday. What a concept!

Natiko · Aug 19, 2021

I don't have strong opinions on what's here - so I'm fine with whatever direction they go.

I think I know every game in the hopper and even I'm not sure what everything in the tease is alluding to lol

EvilChameleon · Aug 19, 2021

With regards to 2, the less strict we make this, the better. So some people were slightly naughty and posted because they missed a non-verbal cue to stop. The world isn't going to end.

Zippedpinhead · Aug 19, 2021

In regards to 2: this should be light hearted and kept to a minimum, but no one should be punished unless they act really bad (as opposed to just not going to bed).

Role PM rule is a rule you only break once, I don't think we need to do anything outside of what we are.

that being said, if a Gamerunner decides to change that rule specifically for their game, then it's their game and they can.

FateShirou · Aug 19, 2021

Sawneeks said:
Should we have stricter rules on punishing players for not stopping when a turbo is reached even if the gamerunner is not yet present? How about players who knowingly post after day end?

dont stop playing till the whistle is my motto

Sawneeks said:
Should we make a new/bigger reminder about NOT posting Role PMs anywhere unless a gamerunner says it's OK? As an example, should the gamerunner say in the first post of an OM thread (Scum, Lovers, Masons, etc.) if role PMs are allowed to be posted and have this be the default?

if people....veteran players make this mistake, then maybe its time to get rid of the rule
besides getting players to sign an EULA or something before playing, how big can you make that notice?

Sawneeks said:
Should we increase the sign up window to 72 hours instead of 42 hours? We don't want gamerunners to feel rushed to get sign ups and there have been times where players miss the window of sign ups by 24 hours.

no reason to have a time specific window?
some sign up take longer, and some take less time

Zippedpinhead · Aug 19, 2021

When does outer mafia come back?

MrHedin · Aug 19, 2021

#2 - I'm torn on this. When the day ends the day ends and the vast majority of the player base has played long enough to know what to do when the day ends (and obviously there is a distinction between a few seconds late and several minutes late). It has seemed like in this past season people were pushing the boundaries and little too much. That said I really don't know if rises to punishment level and even if it does what an appropriate level of punishment would be.

#3 - I definitely think game runners should make clear in the first post of the chat if PMs can be shared or not.

#4 - I think the 48hrs is sufficient enough. Players have multiple avenues to know a game is being signed up for, you can watch the sign up thread, get pings from Discord, and now get a personalized ping when a game starts sign ups. On a player and runner side, when they game fills up you are ready to go, adding another day could be seen as a form of torture.

lokiduck · Aug 19, 2021

EvilChameleon said:
With regards to 2, the less strict we make this, the better. So some people were slightly naughty and posted because they missed a non-verbal cue to stop. The world isn't going to end.

LOL don't agree with this as a game runner who has had to deal with this nonsense on more than one occasion.

It's one thing if someone didn't reload the page and didn't see the day was over (we've all done that at least once), but if someone does it on purpose they should be warned at the very least.

I don't think we need to have a strict punishment for it at all, but a warning for doing it on purpose seems fine to me.

FateShirou said:
if people....veteran players make this mistake, then maybe its time to get rid of the rule
besides getting players to sign an EULA or something before playing, how big can you make that notice?

Again disagree with this completely.

Posting your role pm in certain places can be completely game breaking and destroy what the creator had intended with the role.

Since it happened in my game I'll give it as an example.

Since my game was bastard the intention was to have masters and servants in the pairs not completely trust each other (hence why we do stuff like the Command Seals as well) since we as game runners wanted a healthy amount of distrust to help with the game and flavor even.

By being able to post your role PM, you will be able to confirm to your partner you are a safe person to trust and this completely tosses Vere and I's intentions with the games out the window.

Posting your PM in the main game thread is game breaking because everyone sees confirmation of your role and that is massively game breaking, this is why we have the rule in the first place.

With OM chats, this sort of game breaking happens to a lesser degree admittedly, but it still can be game breaking like it would have been if we had let Bojack and nin stay in the game.

In a non bastard game like Aeleus' this would have been fine and was even allowed, but in bastard games it's very game breaking.

So I tink in general game runners should just take the extra step to say whether PMs can be posted or not.

MrHedin said:
#3 - I definitely think game runners should make clear in the first post of the chat if PMs can be shared or not.

Agreed. My plan going forward will be to make it clear in all OM threads whether people can post or not their PM. Even if we don't make it an official rule, I plan on doing this to prevent it happening on accident in the future.

Fanto · Aug 19, 2021

Sawneeks said:
Should we have stricter rules on punishing players for not stopping when a turbo is reached even if the gamerunner is not yet present? How about players who knowingly post after day end?

It might be best just to disincentivize it as much as possible. I'd probably leave it up to the gamerunner to determine what is or isn't punishable, since I feel like that can be a case by case thing. I personally wouldn't want to warn an accident for example, but I would want to warn someone who's done it repeatedly, or is brazenly posting after day end or a turbo. And I wouldn't mind replacing/modkilling if the behavior continues.

Sawneeks said:
Should we make a new/bigger reminder about NOT posting Role PMs anywhere unless a gamerunner says it's OK? As an example, should the gamerunner say in the first post of an OM thread (Scum, Lovers, Masons, etc.) if role PMs are allowed to be posted and have this be the default?

I think that's probably a good idea, yeah. Just have it in the OP of those threads as to what the PM sharing rules are.

Sawneeks said:
Should we increase the sign up window to 72 hours instead of 42 hours? We don't want gamerunners to feel rushed to get sign ups and there have been times where players miss the window of sign ups by 24 hours.

Yeah, that seems like a good idea.

Randomless · Aug 19, 2021

2. I'm okay with some posts spilling over as long as it's not egregious. If the day ends at 6:00PM and you rush out a post that hits at 6:01PM, I don't think there should be any consequences. If you have a vote in that post it won't be counted anyway. However if you have multiple posts after 6:00PM then yeah you should re-think what you're doing. I think if a player refuses to stop posting even after being alerted multiple times (like say, Day Ends, then another post saying Please Go To Bed) then there might need to be consequences. A modkill for a first time offender feels harsh even if they were being excessive. A warning would probably be ok. If it's a pattern of behaviour then I think a modkill would be fully justified.

3. As someone who reads all the rules for every game, and even the more general rules and guidelines on OM, I was already fully aware of this rule. I think depending on the game, it would be nice if the gamerunner made this extra clear, but I don't think it needs to be a requirement. I am against removing this as a rule entirely. Posting a role PM can be really game changing, and if you allow the posting of role PMs then fake claiming becomes who can make the most believable role PM instead of the most believable claim, which is something that some people could possibly be good at and others not so good. This also depends on how well you know the gamerunner/designer who wrote the role PMs and if you can emulate their style. That's a whole can of worms that I do not think is worth opening. I'm even against scum being able to post their role PMs, because it can ruin fun roles like scum-traitors. I know gamerunners can already allow or not allow scum to post their role PMs in scum chat on a game-by-game basis, but even preventing it for a specific game can already give you some insight into the design, which I don't really like. For this rule I am happy with the status quo. I think the current enforcement is good. Making it more clear would be nice but is unnecessary. If there's an appetite to prevent posting role PMs entirely, even as scum, I would also support that.

4. I like 48 hours because the game can potentially start sooner :< If someone is late they can always sign up as a replacement, and if they find it becoming a pattern of always being late for sign-ups they can be put on the notification list.

lokiduck · Aug 19, 2021

Fanto said:
It might be best just to disincentivize it as much as possible. I'd probably leave it up to the gamerunner to determine what is or isn't punishable, since I feel like that can be a case by case thing. I personally wouldn't want to warn an accident for example, but I would want to warn someone who's done it repeatedly, or is brazenly posting after day end or a turbo. And I wouldn't mind replacing/modkilling if the behavior continues.

Yeah agree with this.

Vincent Alexander · Aug 19, 2021

#2 is a personal pet peeve of mine in regards to end of day. Not sure how to handle, but it drives me bananas because even on my crappy mobile it is easy to recognize when day ends.

lokiduck · Aug 19, 2021

Randomless said:
I'm even against scum being able to post their role PMs, because it can ruin fun roles like scum-traitors. I know gamerunners can already allow or not allow scum to post their role PMs in scum chat on a game-by-game basis, but even preventing it for a specific game can already give you some insight into the design, which I don't really like.

I believe the common standard for scum traitors is the game runner makes a fake claim PM the scummie can use or at least I thought this was the case for Ephidel?

Or was that just a fake claim. Either case I don't see there being an issue in having a fake pm made for such cases LOL.

Randomless · Aug 19, 2021

lokiduck said:
I believe the common standard for scum traitors is the game runner makes a fake claim PM the scummie can use or at least I thought this was the case for Ephidel?

Or was that just a fake claim. Either case I don't see there being an issue in having a fake pm made for such cases LOL.

Yeah I guess that's a pretty good option, I didn't consider that.

Fanto · Aug 19, 2021

Natiko said:
I think I know every game in the hopper and even I'm not sure what everything in the tease is alluding to lol

Oh, I think I know what one of them is alluding to at least...

👀

Oh, actually I know what a couple more are too lol, I just realized I reviewed the one the format is referencing lol.

lokiduck · Aug 19, 2021

I think I know all of the games running next season except like one (and that may not even be true and may just be a case of me not getting the reference)

👀

(only problem with that is one of the games mentioned, I promised to play in but I'm not sure I have the time to actually play .-.)

Funky Dude Sparks · Aug 19, 2021

pls shorter games lmao

Ephidel · Aug 19, 2021

Sawneeks said:
[*]Should we have stricter rules on punishing players for not stopping when a turbo is reached even if the gamerunner is not yet present? How about players who knowingly post after day end?

At day end when people are spamming their last minute votes and whatnot I think it's probably just to be accepted that some people will "miss"

For a turbo, same. A certain amount of leeway is needed, people will post too many votes, people won't realise enough votes have been reached, the occasional post will slip through.

People who know the day is over who knowingly and intentionally keep posting just because nobody as told them to stop should probably knock it off though.

FateShirou said:
dont stop playing till the whistle is my motto

Like this?
This is a bad motto.
You know.
Don't make things harder for the gamerunners/watchers/everyone else by knowingly flouting it just because they're not around at the time.

I've seen it happen a few times but I think the game where sense really went out the window for some people was Mystery where people even tried to unvote and shit during the day-has-not-yet-been-locked fluff period and that was just excessive.

Sawneeks said:
[*]Should we make a new/bigger reminder about NOT posting Role PMs anywhere unless a gamerunner says it's OK? As an example, should the gamerunner say in the first post of an OM thread (Scum, Lovers, Masons, etc.) if role PMs are allowed to be posted and have this be the default?

It probably wouldn't hurt to have a note at the start of private threads saying what is permissible in those threads.

Sawneeks said:
[*]Should we increase the sign up window to 72 hours instead of 42 hours? We don't want gamerunners to feel rushed to get sign ups and there have been times where players miss the window of sign ups by 24 hours.

I kinda suspect people popping in once the window has closed will keep happening even if the window is longer.

But whatever people prefer is fine by me.

Sawneeks said:
[*]Just as a small community update, MafiEra moderators will take additional steps to intervene on problematic, repeated behavior in games. We don't believe this will be an issue but it's something we want to clarify.

Uh oh 👀

Randomless said:
I'm even against scum being able to post their role PMs, because it can ruin fun roles like scum-traitors. I know gamerunners can already allow or not allow scum to post their role PMs in scum chat on a game-by-game basis, but even preventing it for a specific game can already give you some insight into the design, which I don't really like.

I would like to introduce you to the concept of providing fake PMs.

lokiduck said:
I believe the common standard for scum traitors is the game runner makes a fake claim PM the scummie can use or at least I thought this was the case for Ephidel?

Or was that just a fake claim. Either case I don't see there being an issue in having a fake pm made for such cases LOL.

Yeah this is what Nat did for me. He was super cool, he warned me right off the bat that scum were allowed to post PMs and said if I wanted to post fakes then he'd review ones I knocked up for formatting errors or if I told him which of my skills I planned to claim he'd do them for me.
I opted for the latter so the flavour style would match and he provided me with "safe" PMs I could share

He even included the same typo that was in all the Foxhound PMs so I could experience the mini heart attack that I'd outed myself before the game even started when I saw it after I'd posted it but before I'd realised it was in theirs too 👀

lokiduck · Aug 19, 2021

Ephidel said:
I've seen it happen a few times but I think the game where sense really went out the window for some people was Mystery where people even tried to unvote and shit during the day-has-not-yet-been-locked fluff period and that was just excessive.

Yeahhhhhhhhh that particular example was bullshit, and I say this not just as the poor gamerunner who had to deal with that nonsense after it happened.

Again 100% fine with people doing it on accident, but if you keep posting on purpose like we've had this season, then you are just making things harder for the game runner and watcher, especially in cases where said people are busy.

For example in fate/mafia... Stan killed Malus at the exact moment I get suddenly extremely busy at work and while Vere and Chuggs were around, everyone kept fucking posting long after they should have stopped and that just should not have happened :I

FateShirou · Aug 19, 2021

Ephidel said:
Don't make things harder for the gamerunners/watchers/everyone else by knowingly flouting it just because they're not around at the time.

if things get too bad about it, we can always do a strike system
x amount of times u do it, get barred from joining the next time

Ephidel · Aug 19, 2021

FateShirou said:
if things get too bad about it, we can always do a strike system
x amount of times u do it, get barred from joining the next time

I mean, that's effectively what they're asking here: if it needs to be formally punishable to stop it happening.

My stance, effectively, is that people really should have enough sense for that not to need to be formally codified.
Saying "oi, knock it off" should be enough.

You make me question my stance.

FateShirou · Aug 19, 2021

Ephidel said:
I mean, that's effectively what they're asking here: if it needs to be formally punishable to stop it happening.

yes if someone does it on purpose than it should be warned
ex me in transistors
i hammered and kept posting, 100% wrong and i should be punished

i think a 3 strike system is good
and i should be given the first strike for that

Ephidel said:
Saying "oi, knock it off" should be enough.

don't we already do that?

Ephidel said:
You make me question my stance.

I dont care about moving up this totem pole so im not going to mince my words

Natiko · Aug 20, 2021

lokiduck said:
I believe the common standard for scum traitors is the game runner makes a fake claim PM the scummie can use or at least I thought this was the case for Ephidel?

Or was that just a fake claim. Either case I don't see there being an issue in having a fake pm made for such cases LOL.

Yeah, I tried to do everything I could to make sure Ephi wouldn't just be outted instantly while also not tipping everyone off that something was up (of course I goobered a bit still but ah well)

lokiduck · Aug 20, 2021

Natiko said:
Yeah, I tried to do everything I could to make sure Ephi wouldn't just be outted instantly while also not tipping everyone off that something was up (of course I goobered a bit still but ah well)

Yeah :D It's a great solution to the scum can usually post role pms thing LOL.

RetroMG · Aug 20, 2021

Zippedpinhead said:
When does outer mafia come back?

Unless someone points out something that's horribly broken that I've missed, the site is back online now.

weemadarthur · Aug 20, 2021

I don't have a strong opinion on these issues. People should not be line toeing on rules. Flay and eviscerate them all.

Wait that sounds strong. But i'll just live by conclusion.

TheChuggernaut · Aug 20, 2021

MrHedin said:
#2 - I'm torn on this. When the day ends the day ends and the vast majority of the player base has played long enough to know what to do when the day ends (and obviously there is a distinction between a few seconds late and several minutes late). It has seemed like in this past season people were pushing the boundaries and little too much. That said I really don't know if rises to punishment level and even if it does what an appropriate level of punishment would be.

I think the best solution is probably just leaving it up to gamerunner discretion. I don't think a hard set in stone rule really works for this, because people make mistakes, and I don't think that should be treated the same as someone deliberately trying to get around the rules. For example, I think Terraforce(?) posted a while after the day ended in this last Fate game, but it was really clear from reading those posts that he was posting as he was catching up with the thread and genuinely didn't know the day had ended. That's not something I would even give a warning for.

AllThingsPurple · Aug 20, 2021

The end of day thing, is it not already punishable? I know I've been warned about it before. I agree with chuggs though, leave it to game runner discretion.

As far as sign ups go, I think the current window is fine imo.

The role pm thing is whatever. I always assume as default you can't and if ask if unsure.

HPSauce · Aug 20, 2021

lokiduck said:
Yeahhhhhhhhh that particular example was bullshit, and I say this not just as the poor gamerunner who had to deal with that nonsense after it happened.

Yeah that was a load of crap.

AllThingsPurple · Aug 20, 2021

HPSauce said:
Yeah that was a load of crap.

Which you started.

Ephidel · Aug 20, 2021

Natiko said:
Yeah, I tried to do everything I could to make sure Ephi wouldn't just be outted instantly while also not tipping everyone off that something was up (of course I goobered a bit still but ah well)

You were great ^^

HPSauce · Aug 20, 2021

AllThingsPurple said:
Which you started.

I literally didn't but go off I guess

AllThingsPurple · Aug 20, 2021

HPSauce said:
I literally didn't but go off I guess

Okay.

You posted 3 times after hammering before I even showed up.

You hammer.

Then you gloat.

Then you start talking information on the game about whether you had a bomb on you or not.

So yeah you did. Like to sit here and call it bullshit when if you just hammered and stopped posting the whole thing might have not happened its laughable.

Mafia can be an emotionally charged game, so yes I responded to someone choosing to open wolf after hammering happened. It wasn't smart but it was 100% in response to you.

HPSauce · Aug 20, 2021

AllThingsPurple said:
Okay.

You posted 3 times after hammering before I even showed up.

You hammer.

Then you gloat.

Then you start talking information on the game about whether you had a bomb on you or not.

So yeah you did. Like to sit here and call it bullshit when if you just hammered and stopped posting the whole thing might have not happened its laughable.

Mafia can be an emotionally charged game, so yes I responded to someone choosing to open wolf after hammering happened. It wasn't smart but it was 100% in response to you.

We ain't gonna agree so let's just drop it.

AllThingsPurple · Aug 20, 2021

HPSauce said:
We ain't gonna agree so let's just drop it.

No. I want to understand how in your mind, open wolfing after hammering is acceptable? How you can call it bullshit despite being heavily involved in it.

I wasn't going to say anything about the incident because yes I know I was involved and it wasn't my best moment, but then to see you call it out like you weren't involved is rubbing me the wrong way. So please explain how you didn't play a pretty big part in it?

AllThingsPurple · Aug 20, 2021

Honestly open wolfing after hammering is baiting other players and in my opinion far more egregious than most incidents of posting after end of day.

Neki · Aug 20, 2021

I'd just like to add if you're ever unsure of something regarding role PMs or any game questions, just PM the gamerunner. You won't get punished for asking questions and I'm sure many gamerunners would rather get a couple of questions rather than having to modkill someone over breaking rules. At worst the gamerunner will just tell you that they can't explicitly answer the question.

For Metal Gear Solid Mafia, me and Ambulance/Vere were masons but our alignments were not explicitly stated. I just asked Natiko if that was on purpose and it was and it was all good.

In Transistor Mafia, me and Leo were lovers and we were explicitly allowed to copy/paste our full role PM meaning we knew each other alignments. I asked Aeleus anyways before doing it because in some games it's allowed and some games it's not.

If you're ever not 100% sure, just pm the game maker and just be safe. Game makers just want everyone to have a good time.

HPSauce · Aug 20, 2021

AllThingsPurple said:
No. I want to understand how in your mind, open wolfing after hammering is acceptable? How you can call it bullshit despite being heavily involved in it.

I wasn't going to say anything about the incident because yes I know I was involved and it wasn't my best moment, but then to see you call it out like you weren't involved is rubbing me the wrong way. So please explain how you didn't play a pretty big part in it?

My role in that was bullshit too, I shouldn't have done what I did. You talk about Mafia being an emotionally charged game? That works both ways. Everyone here knows how low I can get playing this stupid game. I shouldn't have acted how I did.

That's all I'm going to say.

I'm. Dropping. It.

Alexem · Aug 20, 2021

With regards to posting after a hammer, I think a lot depends on the subject and context of the post-hammer messages. It's understandable that a few posts might get made right after the hammer if their writers didn't have time to refresh the thread before posting - that's understandable, especially if EoD's approaching. A shitpost or two might be expected too, as long as they stop quickly and aren't intended to promote immediate further discussion. If people are still attempting to actively discuss the game after the last vote has been cast (and it's known to have been the last one), then it doesn't seem unreasonable for the game runner to issue warnings as they deem necessary.

As for modkill possibility warnings, I don't think there's any harm in making that explicit in role PMs - anything that helps minimise the risk of an accidental infraction can't hurt.

AllThingsPurple · Aug 20, 2021

HPSauce said:
My role in that was bullshit too, I shouldn't have done what I did. You talk about Mafia being an emotionally charged game? That works both ways. Everyone here knows how low I can get playing this stupid game. I shouldn't have acted how I did.

That's all I'm going to say.

I'm. Dropping. It.

That's fine and I accept that, just wasn't a fan of the way you hand waved it before. I'll drop it too.

Hawthorn · Aug 20, 2021

This was a great season, really enjoyed all the games I played in.

Re posting PM's in private threads, I think the standard should be don't post them until the gamerunner says it's ok, even in the mafia thread. That said I think mafia should be allowed to share their PMs in most cases, with traitor roles being handled the way Natiko handled Ephi's role. It's important for mafia to be able to share information to strategize and people are not always great at summarizing their own role PMs.

I also think that the "no posting role PMs" rule should be slightly rewritten to make it clear that it's ok to share your role name and to repeat short phrases such as command names, "two-shot", etc. I can't think of a specific example, but I remember seeing newer players being hesitant to claim at all because they weren't sure what info they were allowed to share from their role pms.

About posting after the end of the day, I'm fine with leaving that to the gamerunner discretion. I don't think it should be a hard and fast strike/warning/modkill system the way some of our rules are, but people should also be reasonable about it and stop posting once they realize the day is done.

Sawneeks said:
Just as a small community update, MafiEra moderators will take additional steps to intervene on problematic, repeated behavior in games. We don't believe this will be an issue but it's something we want to clarify.

I'm completely fine with how everything this season was handled and feel very grateful to our mods for their volunteer work, I have no idea how you find the time! I wouldn't want to see an increase on censuring behavior, because I feel that mafia as a game inherently has some conflict to it and I like that conflict in our threads is generally given room to breathe and to play out. Of course this requires everyone to have a sense of where the line is, which is not necessarily a given. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I really appreciate our current level of moderation as seen this past season and wouldn't want too many changes to it.

Looking forward to the next games! The hints are cryptic to me, but I can't wait to play :-D

lokiduck · Aug 20, 2021

Neki said:
I'd just like to add if you're ever unsure of something regarding role PMs or any game questions, just PM the gamerunner. You won't get punished for asking questions and I'm sure many gamerunners would rather get a couple of questions rather than having to modkill someone over breaking rules. At worst the gamerunner will just tell you that they can't explicitly answer the question.

For Metal Gear Solid Mafia, me and Ambulance/Vere were masons but our alignments were not explicitly stated. I just asked Natiko if that was on purpose and it was and it was all good.

In Transistor Mafia, me and Leo were lovers and we were explicitly allowed to copy/paste our full role PM meaning we knew each other alignments. I asked Aeleus anyways before doing it because in some games it's allowed and some games it's not.

If you're ever not 100% sure, just pm the game maker and just be safe. Game makers just want everyone to have a good time.

:blobyes:

If you aren't sure just ask the gamerunners. They may not answer, but it's better to be safer instead of getting modkilled, especially when that's the last thing the game runners want either.

MrHedin · Aug 20, 2021

lokiduck said:
:blobyes:

If you aren't sure just ask the gamerunners. They may not answer, but it's better to be safer instead of getting modkilled, especially when that's the last thing the game runners want either.

Yeah I think it needs to be a two pronged approach. If you're not sure be sure to ask your gamerunner before you do anything. And then gamerunners definitely should be in the practice of making sure it's clear in the first post of any chat they setup.

Sawneeks · Aug 20, 2021

Probably should have clarified #2 on my end, sorry about that. It's more focused around people who actively skirt the "no more talking" bit of day end and not the few posts that happen during the flurry of activity before day end/turbo.

A turbo happening and then a gamerunner not being present to stop the game is another big one. If everyone is aware that the turbo limit has been reached but no one has officially come in to stop the game....where should we be on that? Let it slide or stop it?

Funky Dude Sparks said:
pls shorter games lmao

We do have 1 (hopefully 2) mini mafias people want to run this season.

Ephidel said:
At day end when people are spamming their last minute votes and whatnot I think it's probably just to be accepted that some people will "miss"

For a turbo, same. A certain amount of leeway is needed, people will post too many votes, people won't realise enough votes have been reached, the occasional post will slip through.

People who know the day is over who knowingly and intentionally keep posting just because nobody as told them to stop should probably knock it off though.

Like this?
This is a bad motto.
You know.
Don't make things harder for the gamerunners/watchers/everyone else by knowingly flouting it just because they're not around at the time.

I've seen it happen a few times but I think the game where sense really went out the window for some people was Mystery where people even tried to unvote and shit during the day-has-not-yet-been-locked fluff period and that was just excessive.

It probably wouldn't hurt to have a note at the start of private threads saying what is permissible in those threads.

Yeah, this was more what we were alluding to with that rule. It's just figuring out what that punishment would like look. Just a warning?

Hawthorn said:
This was a great season, really enjoyed all the games I played in.

Re posting PM's in private threads, I think the standard should be don't post them until the gamerunner says it's ok, even in the mafia thread. That said I think mafia should be allowed to share their PMs in most cases, with traitor roles being handled the way Natiko handled Ephi's role. It's important for mafia to be able to share information to strategize and people are not always great at summarizing their own role PMs.

I also think that the "no posting role PMs" rule should be slightly rewritten to make it clear that it's ok to share your role name and to repeat short phrases such as command names, "two-shot", etc. I can't think of a specific example, but I remember seeing newer players being hesitant to claim at all because they weren't sure what info they were allowed to share from their role pms.

About posting after the end of the day, I'm fine with leaving that to the gamerunner discretion. I don't think it should be a hard and fast strike/warning/modkill system the way some of our rules are, but people should also be reasonable about it and stop posting once they realize the day is done.

I'm completely fine with how everything this season was handled and feel very grateful to our mods for their volunteer work, I have no idea how you find the time! I wouldn't want to see an increase on censuring behavior, because I feel that mafia as a game inherently has some conflict to it and I like that conflict in our threads is generally given room to breathe and to play out. Of course this requires everyone to have a sense of where the line is, which is not necessarily a given. I guess what I'm trying to say is that I really appreciate our current level of moderation as seen this past season and wouldn't want too many changes to it.

Looking forward to the next games! The hints are cryptic to me, but I can't wait to play :-D

Hmmm, good point on the Role PM posting bit.

5. Unless explicitly told otherwise, players may not directly quote or post screenshots of any PMs, posts, conversations, or any other type of document that was not made in this thread.
6. Players are allowed to lie, within reason, about any game-related material such as the content of a role PM.

Technically we could probably remove "other type of document" too since people post spreedsheets, graphs, and even art without issue. How does something like this sound?

5. Unless explicitly told otherwise, players may not quote or repost their conversations or posts that were not made in this thread. This includes the majority of their role PM.

Not a big fan of ''majority'' here but my tired brain isn't getting any better words right now.

Sawneeks · Aug 20, 2021

Natiko said:
I think I know every game in the hopper and even I'm not sure what everything in the tease is alluding to lol

honestly? me neither and i wrote them

MrHedin · Aug 20, 2021

Sawneeks said:
Technically we could probably remove "other type of document" too since people post spreedsheets, graphs, and even art without issue. How does something like this sound?

5. Unless explicitly told otherwise, players may not quote or repost their conversations or posts that were not made in this thread. This includes the majority of their role PM.

Not a big fan of ''majority'' here but my tired brain isn't getting any better words right now.

That reminds me about the poll rac put up in my game. It seemed like people were split on if that was acceptable or not.

Hawthorn · Aug 20, 2021

Sawneeks said:
5. Unless explicitly told otherwise, players may not quote or repost their conversations or posts that were not made in this thread. This includes the majority of their role PM.

I would say: "Unless the gamerunner explicitly states otherwise, players may not quote or repost conversations or posts from outside of this thread. Players may NOT quote significant portions of their role PMs."

Make it clearer that it refers to any conversations, not just the players' own, and add some capital letters for emphasis? "Significant" is vague, but I think that's pretty much how the rule is, it's down to what's reasonable.

lokiduck · Aug 20, 2021

Sawneeks said:
A turbo happening and then a gamerunner not being present to stop the game is another big one. If everyone is aware that the turbo limit has been reached but no one has officially come in to stop the game....where should we be on that? Let it slide or stop it?

I personally would prefer to have a general rule of people stopping once they see that turbo/day end has happened. I'm also fine with it being up to the game runner as well as some may be more fine with it than others, but I would like at the very least a reminder to stop posting once you are aware the day has ended (aka it's fine to post on accident).

FateShirou · Aug 20, 2021

Hawthorn said:
Make it clearer that it refers to any conversations, not just the players' own, and add some capital letters for emphasis? "Significant" is vague, but I think that's pretty much how the rule is, it's down to what's reasonable.

won't it be easier if its either
A) you can post ur entire role PM
or
B) you cant post ur entire role PM

to avoid the inbetween misinterpretations

Hawthorn · Aug 20, 2021

FateShirou said:
won't it be easier if its either
A) you can post ur entire role PM
or
B) you cant post ur entire role PM

to avoid the inbetween misinterpretations

Yeah, but the actual rule is that you can post information from your role PM, you just can't extensively quote it. Like you can say your role-name, you can explain what your powers are, and it's ok if some language overlaps there. You just can't quote the whole thing, or most of the whole thing. I think that should be just slightly more explicit.

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