MafiEra Season 23 Review |OT| Unfortunately most of the community was murdered in the last game

[TheChuggernaut]

It is once again time for the review thread! It's been a pretty crazy season with Geno probably running our most ambitious game to date. Last season we tried some new rules that had some varying degrees of success so we're going to try to look at those to see if we can tweak them a bit.

New Replacement Rule
So first off we introduced a new rule this season where a player has to wait 24 hours to officially be replaced after the initial request. We've noticed a lot of issues with the new rule as the season has progressed. The rule was designed to give time to cool off if the reason for replacing out is due to emotions running a bit high, but if someone is replacing out due to another reason, this can instead lead to having to wait a full day for not much reason.

Suggestion
Shorten the time from 24 hours down to 1. We have seen players change their minds about replacing so we do think there's value in having a timer, but the time feels a bit too long for the purpose of the rule. We're hoping to find a time that let's players cool down if things are heated while not getting in the way of filling the slot if it's a slot that is going to need to be filled.

Another possible rule change
So something else we noticed was with another rule we started last season and that rule prevents putting a replacement into a slot in the last 12 hours of the day. This rule was put in place to hopefully prevent a player from replacing in near EoD and getting overwhelmed. Issues we're running into is sometimes it's a player who's been following the game and this prevents them from getting in as soon as they like. The other issues we're seeing with it is that the slot is still there during all of this and things can still happen to it. This can put players in a rough spot that's very hard to get out of when they don't really have a way to defend themselves.

Suggestion
Make the rule more flexible by leaving it up to the gamerunners and the player entering the game. If both are okay with entering the game as soon as possible, this should be an option, but this is another rule we do see value with because this could be an overwhelming situation for a player.

Do not ask another player to switch spots with you if you do not make it into a game
We have a lot of players here with good hearts who will usually step aside if you ask, but also please do not ask players to do that. Other people want to play just as bad as you do and this can make people feel guilty.

Hostility
For the most part, we're pretty happy with the direction this has been going and I think the community has been doing a pretty good job not letting this get out of hand. It's not perfect, but it seems to be progressing to a place it should be. As gamerunners we've been trying to be more proactive this season and step in when we see something get close to a boiling point. If the community has any feedback or suggestions on how we can improve on this front please let us know.

And now for a taste of things to come.

Spoiler

Still ironing some stuff out, but next season you might see a certain bass guitar wielding not really hero, a game where you might have to find your tv remote and your best bowl of surgery cereal, and you'll need to beware the water because there might be something lurking there, not to be confused with another game possibly featuring boats.

 

[MrHedin]

I think with the replacement window the timing needs to be slightly longer than an hour, I would say maybe 4-6? An hour may not always be enough to cool down.

Agree that if the replacement is good to go then they can tag in whenever. However until they officially tag in I wouldn't send them the role. The whole Sneeks thing ended up mechanically weird regardless but if Monkey had not seen the PM ahead of time then it would not have been an issue on that front.

I know one of those games.....

 

[TheChuggernaut]

I think with the replacement window the timing needs to be slightly longer than an hour, I would say maybe 4-6? An hour may not always be enough to cool down.

Agree that if the replacement is good to go then they can tag in whenever. However until they officially tag in I wouldn't send them the role. The whole Sneeks thing ended up mechanically weird regardless but if Monkey had not seen the PM ahead of time then it would not have been an issue on that front.

I know one of those games.....

Click to shrink...

4-6 isn't bad. We could try to air on the side of giving more time at first, and we could make adjustments from there depending on what we're seeing.

As for your second point, I knew I was forgetting something when I was writing that out, but yes I agree. The PM should not be sent until the gamerunner has officially put the replacement into the game.

 

[Randomless]

1 hour of replacement time seems a bit short for me personally, perhaps it would work better for others than myself though. I think 4-6 hours like Hedin said would work better.

As for the replacing in, I think the replacement should be able to replace in whenever most convenient for them, within reason. If the example scenario is a replacement in the middle of a day phase, I think an acceptable range would be anywhere from *immediately*, to *the start of the next night phase* and up to *the start of the next day phase*. However, they should not be given their role PM until they are actually replacing in. The result of this is that other players would need to be okay with potentially having an "empty" slot in the game that is still allowed to be voted for, killed, or otherwise interacted with. I think this is preferable to the existing scenario where a player can replace in and effectively not get to play at all, not even post, and then are spoiled and cannot replace a different player. If a player was very desperate to play, they could choose to only replace in at the start of the next day phase, which assuming their slot survives, would give them at least one day phase to play, the same amount of game time that all players signing up for any Mafia game are allotted. In this situation, if their slot does not survive, they could remain on the replacements list and get the next replacement slot. This would also completely bypass the unspoken rule or etiquette of "not voting for a replacement" or "giving a replacement a chance" which is a common courtesy but not something I believe should be codified as a rule, because sometimes you just need to vote out a slot regardless of the circumstances around it.

---

Another point I'd like to bring up that wasn't listed in the OP is the usage of pronouns in costume games, or rather, the usage of pronouns to solve players in costume games. During the costume modifier of the most recent game, there wasn't much time between the announcement of the modifier and the start of the day phase where a player could request altered pronouns, so many costumes kept the same pronouns as their era accounts. This then lead to some players attempting to solve others by their listed pronouns, for example Aeleus being the only player with they/them pronouns, and the ratio of players with she/her pronouns compared to the players with he/him pronouns being very off thus narrowing down things considerably for people going by she/her pronouns. I personally think solving by pronouns is very gross. We can't stop anyone from doing it in their heads, because admittedly it can reveal certain players like in the above examples, but I don't think this is something we should be writing down in the game thread, so to speak. People's pronouns are a part of their personal identity and it can be uncomfortable to be categorized in this way.

Now, I understand this is not usually an issue, as there is plenty of time for players to request altered pronouns when signing up for a "regular" costume game and that this was potentially a one-off issue. I still think this is something worth bringing up, both to prevent future "one-off" incidents should this type of modifier ever be repeated, as well as to help future new players or just players who are new to costume games and might have missed something when signing up. It is not uncommon for players to not read the rules when signing up for a game. I have been reading some older games lately for design inspiration and I found there was no shortage of new players accidentally getting themselves modkilled for things, such as posting their role PM, which are marked in the rules. I will echo one suggestion I have heard from the esteemed lokiduck, and that is to setup costume accounts with neutral pronouns such as they/them or "any", or even without pronouns at all. If a player chooses to request altered pronouns then they can be changed as needed from there. I think this would avoid repeating this situation and also save potential new players from themselves. Another alternative would just be the gamerunner privately making sure in their role PM to clarify that the players were okay with the listed pronouns for their account and that they are aware they can be changed.

 

[RetroMG]

Another point I'd like to bring up that wasn't listed in the OP is the usage of pronouns in costume games, or rather, the usage of pronouns to solve players in costume games. During the costume modifier of the most recent game, there wasn't much time between the announcement of the modifier and the start of the day phase where a player could request altered pronouns, so many costumes kept the same pronouns as their era accounts. This then lead to some players attempting to solve others by their listed pronouns, for example Aeleus being the only player with they/them pronouns, and the ratio of players with she/her pronouns compared to the players with he/him pronouns being very off thus narrowing down things considerably for people going by she/her pronouns. I personally think solving by pronouns is very gross. We can't stop anyone from doing it in their heads, because admittedly it can reveal certain players like in the above examples, but I don't think this is something we should be writing down in the game thread, so to speak. People's pronouns are a part of their personal identity and it can be uncomfortable to be categorized in this way.

Now, I understand this is not usually an issue, as there is plenty of time for players to request altered pronouns when signing up for a "regular" costume game and that this was potentially a one-off issue. I still think this is something worth bringing up, both to prevent future "one-off" incidents should this type of modifier ever be repeated, as well as to help future new players or just players who are new to costume games and might have missed something when signing up.

Click to shrink...

Thanks for bringing this up. This was discussed in modchat after the costume phase in Mafiera Ultimate was over and it was taken as a sort of "lesson learned." What we should have done is defaulted people to a neutral pronoun instead of to their original pronoun. It's an extremely specific issue that probably won't happen again, but if it does, we'll know to handle it better.

I will echo one suggestion I have heard from the esteemed lokiduck, and that is to setup costume accounts with neutral pronouns such as they/them or "any", or even without pronouns at all.

Click to shrink...

Costume accounts are already genderless by default. Players can go in and adjust them, but at least the ones I've made (which are most of them) have no gender set.
Geno and I discussed setting it on the costume accounts before the costume phase started and making the pronouns visible in the posts (like is done on Era,) but it was right before the phase started and I didn't have time to do it. Looking back, that was fortunate.

 

[TheChuggernaut]

Another point I'd like to bring up that wasn't listed in the OP is the usage of pronouns in costume games, or rather, the usage of pronouns to solve players in costume games. During the costume modifier of the most recent game, there wasn't much time between the announcement of the modifier and the start of the day phase where a player could request altered pronouns, so many costumes kept the same pronouns as their era accounts. This then lead to some players attempting to solve others by their listed pronouns, for example Aeleus being the only player with they/them pronouns, and the ratio of players with she/her pronouns compared to the players with he/him pronouns being very off thus narrowing down things considerably for people going by she/her pronouns. I personally think solving by pronouns is very gross. We can't stop anyone from doing it in their heads, because admittedly it can reveal certain players like in the above examples, but I don't think this is something we should be writing down in the game thread, so to speak. People's pronouns are a part of their personal identity and it can be uncomfortable to be categorized in this way.

Now, I understand this is not usually an issue, as there is plenty of time for players to request altered pronouns when signing up for a "regular" costume game and that this was potentially a one-off issue. I still think this is something worth bringing up, both to prevent future "one-off" incidents should this type of modifier ever be repeated, as well as to help future new players or just players who are new to costume games and might have missed something when signing up. It is not uncommon for players to not read the rules when signing up for a game. I have been reading some older games lately for design inspiration and I found there was no shortage of new players accidentally getting themselves modkilled for things, such as posting their role PM, which are marked in the rules. I will echo one suggestion I have heard from the esteemed lokiduck, and that is to setup costume accounts with neutral pronouns such as they/them or "any", or even without pronouns at all. If a player chooses to request altered pronouns then they can be changed as needed from there. I think this would avoid repeating this situation and also save potential new players from themselves. Another alternative would just be the gamerunner privately making sure in their role PM to clarify that the players were okay with the listed pronouns for their account and that they are aware they can be changed.

Click to shrink...

So we did talk about this in modchat and we came to the conclusion that this was something that can be easily fixed on our end. A regular costume game has players signing up with their pronouns of choice as is and if we do end up running into a weird case where we have a costume game inside of a regular game again we can just have a gamerunner ask if the person prefers the same pronouns or different ones if there is a costume segment soon. I do not want to have us default to any pronouns regardless of what those are though.

 

[Fanto]

Apparently the flavor for my next game is so obscure it couldn't even be teased, perfect lol.

 

[Geno]

I do agree I shouldn't have sent that PM, however due to the possibility of Sawneeks coming back when Salvapot died, she had to be replaced either way, had I not sent that PM, what would you all have done? Wait until Salva's death to replace the slot or replace them there and tell them to wait for Salvapot's death?

 

[TheChuggernaut]

I do agree I shouldn't have sent that PM, however due to the possibility of Sawneeks coming back when Salvapot died, she had to be replaced either way, had I not sent that PM, what would you all have done? Wait until Salva's death to replace the slot or replace them there and tell them to wait for Salvapot's death?

Click to shrink...

I think you just ran into a funky situation tbh. It is what it is, but I do think waiting for the slot to be officially replaced to send the PM would still be good practice in the future.

 

[Geno]

I think you just ran into a funky situation tbh. It is what it is, but I do think waiting for the slot to be officially replaced to send the PM would still be good practice in the future.

Click to shrink...

Yeah agreed with that.

 

[Verelios]

4-6 hours for replacing like Hedin said sounds reasonable.

 

[Randomless]

Thanks for bringing this up. This was discussed in modchat after the costume phase in Mafiera Ultimate was over and it was taken as a sort of "lesson learned." What we should have done is defaulted people to a neutral pronoun instead of to their original pronoun. It's an extremely specific issue that probably won't happen again, but if it does, we'll know to handle it better.


Costume accounts are already genderless by default. Players can go in and adjust them, but at least the ones I've made (which are most of them) have no gender set.
Geno and I discussed setting it on the costume accounts before the costume phase started and making the pronouns visible in the posts (like is done on Era,) but it was right before the phase started and I didn't have time to do it. Looking back, that was fortunate.

Click to shrink...

So we did talk about this in modchat and we came to the conclusion that this was something that can be easily fixed on our end. A regular costume game has players signing up with their pronouns of choice as is and if we do end up running into a weird case where we have a costume game inside of a regular game again we can just have a gamerunner ask if the person prefers the same pronouns or different ones if there is a costume segment soon. I do not want to have us default to any pronouns regardless of what those are though.

Click to shrink...

I think having the gamerunner just be more proactive and clarifying with individuals beforehand is probably the best bet, yeah. This is more something that can be resolved from a leadership perspective and doesn't necessarily need to be codified as a "rule" per se.

I do agree I shouldn't have sent that PM, however due to the possibility of Sawneeks coming back when Salvapot died, she had to be replaced either way, had I not sent that PM, what would you all have done? Wait until Salva's death to replace the slot or replace them there and tell them to wait for Salvapot's death?

Click to shrink...

I agree with Chuggs that this particular case was a rough situation, I don't think there's much you could have done in the moment that would completely alleviate that issue. From reading their scum chat I believe a choice was made to not replace Monkey in immediately, as in she was not able to use her night commands and her scummates had to enter them for her. I think in this specific situation, because of the way the day ended heavily implicating that slot, I would've personally waited for night actions to resolve before handing Monkey the role PM and allowing her in the scum chat. Once actions locked and I saw that Salva ate that slot, I would've given Monkey a heads up that hey, if you choose to replace into this slot, you will be "out" of the game when you are given the role PM. That would avoid spoiling the secrecy of Salva's role while still giving the replacement player a fair heads up. If at that point Monkey chose not to replace in to that slot, I would keep looking for others to replace in there. I understand this could be considered going above and beyond as a gamerunner, and it's much easier to make that call with the full backing of hindsight and its easy to make mistakes in the moment, especially with a game of this size and complexity and you, Geno, handling it all on your own for the most part. This also runs into the issue of the difficulty of finding a replacement who is okay with not playing the game, so it's not a perfect solution by any means.

I think the easiest way to prevent this situation was to change Salva's actual role in some way, either the role itself or some of the stipulations on it like the secrecy.

 

[lokiduck]

One suggestion I got but forgot to mention when we were planning the review thread, was maybe in larger more chaotic games (basically anything like Geno's game), we should have longer night phases so people have more time to cool off and take a break from the game if they want to).

Another one I def want to bring up is a suggestion to all game makers to consider making overrides only useable 24 hours into a day phase, or at least not active on day one.

After Mary Gary and Mafiera Mafia, I've been thinking more about Overrides, and while I don't want to make it an official rule or anything, I just think might be a good idea because it might lead to cases where a player unfairly gets taken out before they are even able to post.

 

[MrHedin]

One suggestion I got but forgot to mention when we were planning the review thread, was maybe in larger more chaotic games (basically anything like Geno's game), we should have longer night phases so people have more time to cool off and take a break from the game if they want to).

Another one I def want to bring up is a suggestion to all game makers to consider making overrides only useable 24 hours into a day phase, or at least not active on day one.

After Mary Gary and Mafiera Mafia, I've been thinking more about Overrides, and while I don't want to make it an official rule or anything, I just think might be a good idea because it might lead to cases where a player unfairly gets taken out before they are even able to post.

Click to shrink...

Yeah the overrides later in the day is a good idea. I think we also have talked about that we should frown upon D1 vigs and overrides too or if they are there then definitely can't be used in the first 24 hours just so people can actually play the game.

 

[Zookfoodle]

As someone who was given a override and used it on day 1, I concur with the logic you shouldn't be able to use it too early. Maybe even make a new sort of override (like a public alignment check) that allows for some counterplay / shenanagins, but still fulfills the power fantasy of putting someone on the chopping block

 

[lokiduck]

Yeah the overrides later in the day is a good idea. I think we also have talked about that we should frown upon D1 vigs and overrides too or if they are there then definitely can't be used in the first 24 hours just so people can actually play the game.

Click to shrink...

As someone who was given a override and used it on day 1, I concur with the logic you shouldn't be able to use it too early. Maybe even make a new sort of override (like a public alignment check) that allows for some counterplay / shenanagins, but still fulfills the power fantasy of putting someone on the chopping block

Click to shrink...

Yeah in general D1 day vigs and Overrides shouldn't be allowed at the very least, but 24 hour sin general I think helps with having that sort of role while making it still making it fair for the player getting yeeted to be able to be speak first.

I am also all for special conditions needing to be done to unlock the override sort of like the role Darkside had in Garlic Monkey. He had to post three gifs/pics a day for two days straight so it prevented him from being able to use it day 1 (and at all in the end :<) so that's way more fair to him and other players than just having it at the start.

 

[malus]

I don't think a specific rule against d1 overrides/vigs is necessary, but it should definitely be discouraged during review.

 

[Zippedpinhead]

Replacement cooling off period should be a bit longer than an hour BUT I understand it being less than a day.

I'm torn on day 1 overrides and vig shots. If it's your one move and someone is absolutely intent on you going out day 1, then it sucks to not be able to use your ability.

But it really throws a damper on the game to be shot and knocked out an hour into the first day.

 

[TheChuggernaut]

I don't think a specific rule against d1 overrides/vigs is necessary, but it should definitely be discouraged during review.

Click to shrink...

Yeah this is where I'm at with it and I don't think how we handle overrides or day vigs needs to be uniform even. Something we can take a look at in review and kind of play with it a bit from there, but I don't think a rule needs to go down about it.

 

[Terraforce]

I don't think a specific rule against d1 overrides/vigs is necessary, but it should definitely be discouraged during review.

Click to shrink...

+1 to this. Don't think it needs to be a set rule. Feels too restrictive. But being discouraged is fine.

 

[lokiduck]

I wasn't asking for a set rule. As I said it was merely a suggest to game makers and reviewers to keep it in mind going forward.

 

[malus]

I wasn't asking for a set rule. As I said it was merely a suggest to game makers and reviewers to keep it in mind going forward.

Click to shrink...

Agree with that. It could also be added to the guide for reviewers on Outer Mafia. Similar to the passage about Jesters.

 

[Alexem]

I'd certainly agree with updating the guidance on overrides. How best to implement a restriction will probably depend on the style of game, but I think that putting a limit on how early they can be used, whether that's after the first twelve hours or from D2 onward, should be considered good practice.

 

[lokiduck]

Agree with that. It could also be added to the guide for reviewers on Outer Mafia. Similar to the passage about Jesters.

Click to shrink...

Yeah that would be a good idea

 

[Fanto]

Don't really have much to add myself I think, I agree with what's been proposed so far.

 

[jman1954goat]

Im personally for the replacement window being short as possible. I absolutely hate the rule of waiting to be replaced and think If someone is positive they want out let them out ASAP

(I wanna preference everything that follows by saying I'm responsible for my bad actions during the game that I'm referencing and I'm not trying to excuse what I did.)

During the game I was banned one of the things that sent me spiraling during one of my mental break downs was the feeling of being trapped.

I was losing my shit because I could not get out of the game and I felt I was letting everyone down.

I wish in that scenario were I was losing my damn mind there was no barrier to exiting.

1 hour of replacement time seems a bit short for me personally, perhaps it would work better for others than myself though. I think 4-6 hours like Hedin said would work better.

Click to shrink...

4-6 hours for replacing like Hedin said sounds reasonable.

Click to shrink...

Even 4-6 would have been to long for me I when I was mid panic attack. (I have not been formally diagnosed but I don't know a better term.)

Yes my mental health issues are unique but I feel replacement is a personal choice that should be handled case by case.

Let The players who want a window before being replaced opt in to having it but let players who knows for there own mental health that if the need to be instantly Yanked out the game let them get out.

It's hard to get across the real distress I felt in that moment were I was not allowed to exit. I was shaking and crying and thought the sky was falling etc.

 

[jman1954goat]

MrHedin

Would you be apposed to opting in to the 4-6 hour window? Or opting out and being eligible to be replaced instantly?

I'm super anxious and shaking right now just thinking about being "trapped" in a game.

Like I actually literally feel like throwing up right as I type this thinking about finding myself in another scenario were I can't instantly replace out.

 

[jman1954goat]

Small issue.

The main mafia era linked in the first post of games is often several seasons out of date.

It would be helpful to have a game thread link to the current mafia era ot instead of one from months or years ago.

 

[jman1954goat]

So first off we introduced a new rule this season where a player has to wait 24 hours to officially be replaced after the initial request. We've noticed a lot of issues with the new rule as the season has progressed. The rule was designed to give time to cool off if the reason for replacing out is due to emotions running a bit high

Click to shrink...

I think different players are different.

Sometimes people need cooling off but even for a purely emotions based replacement I think the option to leave immediately is Valid and should be respected.

Like I know myself and if I'm depressed and panicking keeping me in the game is torture.

The rule is supposed to help the Player and it's doing the opposite in my case.


You have to look at things case by case and not have a stagnant "you can't replace yet."

My overall suggesting is let players choose before the game if the want a cooloff or if the want to leave right away

 

[TheChuggernaut]

I think different players are different.

Sometimes people need cooling off but even for a purely emotions based replacement I think the option to leave immediately is Valid and should be respected.

Like I know myself and if I'm depressed and panicking keeping me in the game is torture.

The rule is supposed to help the Player and it's doing the opposite in my case.


You have to look at things case by case and not have a stagnant "you can't replace yet."

My overall suggesting is let players choose before the game if the want a cooloff or if the want to leave right away

Click to shrink...

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. You're still able to replace out and that will be respected, it's just a time where if you think that you rushed a bit in asking for a replacement you have the chance to change your mind. If it's not something you see changing, you don't have to play the game in that time period.

 

[MrHedin]

MrHedin

Would you be apposed to opting in to the 4-6 hour window? Or opting out and being eligible to be replaced instantly?

I'm super anxious and shaking right now just thinking about being "trapped" in a game.

Like I actually literally feel like throwing up right as I type this thinking about finding myself in another scenario were I can't instantly replace out.

Click to shrink...

As Chuggs said, its the window that you have to change your mind. If you decide to replace and have no intention of coming back then just let the game runner know, close the browser, and walk away. You don't play for those 4-6 hours, you walk away from the game. Maybe after that calm down time you are ready to come back in and play and maybe not, but that time is there for you to walk away and get some distance from the game for a bit.

 

[jman1954goat]

I think you're looking at this the wrong way. You're still able to replace out and that will be respected, it's just a time where if you think that you rushed a bit in asking for a replacement you have the chance to change your mind. If it's not something you see changing, you don't have to play the game in that time period.

Click to shrink...

As Chuggs said, its the window that you have to change your mind. If you decide to replace and have no intention of coming back then just let the game runner know, close the browser, and walk away. You don't play for those 4-6 hours, you walk away from the game. Maybe after that calm down time you are ready to come back in and play and maybe not, but that time is there for you to walk away and get some distance from the game for a bit.

Click to shrink...

I understand this rationally but unless im officially replaced and see the red text that I'm officially gone I still feel trapped.


When I'm mid game freaking out it's really important for my brain to recognize I'm fully gone with no chance to come back or I'm gonna keep panicking and feeling terrible.

I'm not trying to exaggerating when I say it feels like torture to to still be in the game even tho I'm technically not playing.

 

[jman1954goat]

When I need replacement most I'm not operating with a fully rational brain I'm dealing with a mid meltdown brain.

This is why it's even more important that I fully get out of the game ASAP

 

[jman1954goat]

Sorry I'm posting so much.

I've been waiting to get this off my chest for 3 months and it's really important to me.

 

[*Splinter]

When I need replacement most I'm not operating with a fully rational brain I'm dealing with a mid meltdown brain.

This is why it's even more important that I fully get out of the game ASAP

Click to shrink...

That sounds rough jman, sorry to hear you had to go through that.

I guess the question then is should this cooling off period be opt-in or opt-out. Either way it's ultimately gotta be down to the player in question, right?

 

[Sorian]

I think making the cool down thing for a replacement an opt-in/opt-out kind of defeats the purpose since the original point was people opting out of the game when not in sound mind and then wanting back in, we'd run into the same issue I think.

I understand your point jman but think of it like an administrative thing, from your perspective, you are out of the game and done, no obligations but the gamerunner has to follow some detailed steps for replacement. That's on them, not on you at all.

For specific timings, I really have no preference, I assume it's a number that will be tweaked over a few seasons, maybe even let gamerunners choose their own timer between 1 and 24 hours this season (that they choose pre-game) and keep it uniform throughout that singular game, we can re-visit and see what felt best. I do agree that role PM should not go out to a player until the literal words "X has replaced Y" have been posted to the thread. It's ok if the person does a bunch of reading up trying to scum hunt before they get the PM and then find out they are scum. That's some great cover they have now when they come into the game

As far as costumes go, is there a reason we even let the players choose pronouns? The whole point is to be costumed as your person, we know that Thresh is a he, it doesn't matter if Sawneeks (just pulling examples here) is the one behind Thresh because the point is that you are playing an anonymous game. Why even let people choose the pronouns (even if they are going to lie for cover) when all that does is "gamify" the pronouns? Pronouns should just match the fake costume, done.

 

[TheChuggernaut]

That sounds rough jman, sorry to hear you had to go through that.

I guess the question then is should this cooling off period be opt-in or opt-out. Either way it's ultimately gotta be down to the player in question, right?

Click to shrink...

Well I think the issue that we run into for that is that we want it to be uniform. No one is signing up for games with the intention of replacing out so we're trying to find a sweet spot where a player that might change their mind will have time to do so, but a player that isn't going to change their mind won't be impacting the game too much. It's also a rule that would be enforced regardless of the reason for replacing out.

 

[Sorian]

I understand your point jman but think of it like an administrative thing, from your perspective, you are out of the game and done, no obligations but the gamerunner has to follow some detailed steps for replacement. That's on them, not on you at all.

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Just to add, it's the same idea as how they can't announce the replacement in the last 24 hours or whatever the rule is. You are officially replaced out privately but the thread doesn't know yet. It's the same idea.

 

[jman1954goat]

I think making the cool down thing for a replacement an opt-in/opt-out kind of defeats the purpose since the original point was people opting out of the game when not in sound mind and then wanting back in, we'd run into the same issue I think

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I'm saying opt out before the game not at the time of replacement

, you are out of the game and done, no obligations but the gamerunner has to follow some detailed steps for replacement. That's on them, not on you at all.

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But I still feel in trapped and paralyzed even tho "the ball is out of my court"

I'm freaking out thinking on how ill fuck up next. The relief of getting the official red text that I'm replaced is so important to calming down.

Well I think the issue that we run into for that is that we want it to be uniform. No one is signing up for games with the intention of replacing out so we're trying to find a sweet spot where a player that might change their mind will have time to do so, but a player that isn't going to change their mind won't be impacting the game too much. It's also a rule that would be enforced regardless of the reason for replacing out.

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I understand the want to make things uniform for game runners. that's why I hoping you'll consider allowing players to Opt out of the cooldown in the rules.

Does it hurt that much to give a player the option to opt out when the system is hugely detremintal to them?


I don't think freeing people to leave if the really want to will tax gameerunners to much.

Having a rigid inflexible system is arguably more detremintal if special situations arise.

 

[lokiduck]

I think making the cool down thing for a replacement an opt-in/opt-out kind of defeats the purpose since the original point was people opting out of the game when not in sound mind and then wanting back in, we'd run into the same issue I think.

I understand your point jman but think of it like an administrative thing, from your perspective, you are out of the game and done, no obligations but the gamerunner has to follow some detailed steps for replacement. That's on them, not on you at all.

For specific timings, I really have no preference, I assume it's a number that will be tweaked over a few seasons, maybe even let gamerunners choose their own timer between 1 and 24 hours this season (that they choose pre-game) and keep it uniform throughout that singular game, we can re-visit and see what felt best. I do agree that role PM should not go out to a player until the literal words "X has replaced Y" have been posted to the thread. It's ok if the person does a bunch of reading up trying to scum hunt before they get the PM and then find out they are scum. That's some great cover they have now when they come into the game

As far as costumes go, is there a reason we even let the players choose pronouns? The whole point is to be costumed as your person, we know that Thresh is a he, it doesn't matter if Sawneeks (just pulling examples here) is the one behind Thresh because the point is that you are playing an anonymous game. Why even let people choose the pronouns (even if they are going to lie for cover) when all that does is "gamify" the pronouns? Pronouns should just match the fake costume, done.

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The problem with that is while some people do not care what pronouns are used for them, some people do and it's rude to just assume everyone will be okay with using their costumes pronouns, which is why pronouns are still a thing in costume games. We will never have costume account pronouns decided by the character not the players pronouns, because the player's preference is what's important.

 

[lokiduck]

I understand this rationally but unless im officially replaced and see the red text that I'm officially gone I still feel trapped.


When I'm mid game freaking out it's really important for my brain to recognize I'm fully gone with no chance to come back or I'm gonna keep panicking and feeling terrible.

I'm not trying to exaggerating when I say it feels like torture to to still be in the game even tho I'm technically not playing.

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I understand that this is a issue specific for you, but we can't change a rule to fit one specific person, especially when it's for specific circumstances that have occurred in the past.

Replacing out officially is done as a courtesy mainly for people in the game and the game runner so the runner knows to get a replacement ready to go and players know what is happening with that slot. Usually when a player replaces out, they just put the entire game behind them and don't post again.

Hell in the past, we have people just stop posting in the past that are then forced to be replaced later, which is what happened in the first game you even placed with the neutral slot. The player disappeared without a word so I was forced to replace because of not making the post count.

We have the replacement system in place to try and encourage players that want out to officially let the game runner know, but because again people in the past have regretted signing out two early, we have put in the waiting rule before it's official.

 

[TheChuggernaut]

I'm saying opt out before the game not at the time of replacement


But I still feel in trapped and paralyzed even tho "the ball is out of my court"

I'm freaking out thinking on how ill fuck up next. The relief of getting the official red text that I'm replaced is so important to calming down.

I understand the want to make things uniform for game runners. that's why I hoping you'll consider allowing players to Opt out of the cooldown in the rules.

Does it hurt that much to give a player the option to opt out when the system is hugely detremintal to them?


I don't think freeing people to leave if the really want to will tax gameerunners to much.

Having a rigid inflexible system is arguably more detremintal if special situations arise.

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I get that you're looking at it the way you but I'm going to ask you not to because this just isn't a very healthy way to look at the game. All the time between requesting a replace out and actually be replaced is simply time to change your mind. Nothing more or less. You don't need to play or look at the game during this time and you especially don't if you have no intention of playing in the game again. Again, I see what you're saying about the opt in/opt out, but it completely defeats the point of the rule.

 

[*Splinter]

Sorry to keep weighing in when I'm not even playing at the moment but I think jman has described pretty well the harm this rule causes them (and let's not assume this situation only applies to jman). This also sounds quite a lot worse than someone replacing out and then regretting it later, although that may be a more common occurrence.

It probably comes down to a conversation between the person subbing out and the gamerunner, but if that person needs an assurance that they no longer have access to the game then this rule shouldn't stand in the way of that.

 

[lokiduck]

Sorry to keep weighing in when I'm not even playing at the moment but I think jman has described pretty well the harm this rule causes them (and let's not assume this situation only applies to jman). This also sounds quite a lot worse than someone replacing out and then regretting it later, although that may be a more common occurrence.

It probably comes down to a conversation between the person subbing out and the gamerunner, but if that person needs an assurance that they no longer have access to the game then this rule shouldn't stand in the way of that.

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We are having a discussion about modifying the rule, because the wait time was deemed too long of a waiting period, which is why we are considering the 4-6 hour period.

In most games it won't matter if a replacement subs in immediately or 6 hours after the fact especially since people sometimes sub out at odd times when no replacement might respond.

For example, in the game Jman subbed out in it was 3am my time and most people were asleep. A replacement wouldn't have subbed in immediately anyways.

 

[TheChuggernaut]

Sorry to keep weighing in when I'm not even playing at the moment but I think jman has described pretty well the harm this rule causes them (and let's not assume this situation only applies to jman). This also sounds quite a lot worse than someone replacing out and then regretting it later, although that may be a more common occurrence.

It probably comes down to a conversation between the person subbing out and the gamerunner, but if that person needs an assurance that they no longer have access to the game then this rule shouldn't stand in the way of that.

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Thanks for weighing in! Discussion and other perspectives about this are good so don't feel like you need to apologize. Talking and discussing it with the game runners is something we probably will end up doing but when a player making a quick choice when they're not caught up in what they're feeling is kind of what we're hoping to avoid with the rule so it feels like if we're going to do that there's not much point in the rule in the first place which might not be a bad discussion to have either

 

[Sorian]

The problem with that is while some people do not care what pronouns are used for them, some people do and it's rude to just assume everyone will be okay with using their costumes pronouns, which is why pronouns are still a thing in costume games. We will never have costume account pronouns decided by the character not the players pronouns, because the player's preference is what's important.

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Can't have it both ways, either the games are anonymous which means pronouns need to be anonymized too or the games aren't anonymous which means pronouns are going to be a part of the solving equation.

 

[lokiduck]

Can't have it both ways, either the games are anonymous which means pronouns need to be anonymized too or the games aren't anonymous which means pronouns are going to be a part of the solving equation.

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The only way we can do having pronouns being anonymous is if everyone is okay with not using pronouns at all then and only referring to people by their character names, which is completely doable I guess. That or everyone using neutral pronouns if they feel they have to (but as was already addressed not everyone likes neutral pronouns.

Not having specific pronouns listed might lead to people just accidentally defaulting to some pronoun and mostly likely the pronouns of the character which again causes an issue.

This is why I lean towards us using everyone's preferred pronouns and maintain that solving via pronouns is gross and rude.

 

[Hawthorn]

About pronouns in costume games: I think that we can address all the concerns by allowing players to choose their pronouns but making it clear that it's ok/normal if you choose to use different pronouns than usual for the costume game. In scooby-do mafia I chose to use male pronouns because it doesn't bother me to be referred to with them, even though they're not accurate, and I liked the idea of disappearing into the vast sea of he/hims that you see on every player list. Other players may feel differently, with the result that any given player MAY have their usual pronouns, but also may not. The uncertainty over whether a player may be using different costume pronouns, even though they may not be, introduces enough doubt that pronoun-based solving isn't practical, but nobody is made uncomfortable by having to have pronouns they don't want used for them. Sounds like that is the plan going forward, so I'm good with it.

About cool-off periods for replacements: I'm for them (sorry Jman). The fact of the matter is that, as long as players are allowed/encouraged to quit the game immediately & stop posting/interacting if they need to, the question of when to solicit the replacement/add the highlighted text is no longer about the departing player but about the game state going forward.

I am also a really big fan of the new rule about not discussing plans to potentially replace out.

I think that we definitely need to encourage taking breaks from game play if needed, and playing more casually in general. If a mafia game is seen less as "this is a serious commitment I must prioritize above all else" we will imo have fewer fights/emotional breakdowns and more signups.

 

[jman1954goat]

understand that this is a issue specific for you, but we can't change a rule to fit one specific person, especially when it's for specific circumstances that have occurred in the past.

Replacing out officially is done as a courtesy mainly for people in the game and the game runner so the runner knows to get a replacement ready to go and players know what is happening with that slot.

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I don't want a rule change just for me. I don't think I'm the only player who doesn't like the cooldown rules. (Probably the loudest/ most impacted tho)

I'm not looking at one past situation, I'm thinking of different scenarios were different kinds of people would want to be replaced faster than "normal"

Replacement is a courtesy for the players and I appreciate it greatly (I don't think I could play at all without replacements)

The cooldown is a nice new feature that helps people who may have regrets but different people are different and what's helpful to some is hurtful to others.

As long as individuals opting out is not a hugely detrimental to game runners I don't see the harm allowing it besides strick adherence to binary rules at all cost even when there's a negative human element.

Again, I see what you're saying about the opt in/opt out, but it completely defeats the point of the rule.

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I heavily disagree. The point of the rule is to be helpful to players who may experience regret by making in the moment decision.

If anyone ops out BEFORE even needing to be replaced because they know themselves and what's best for there needs or mental health I don't see this clashing with the goal.

If the rule is harming someone making exceptions to make players feel better should be taken.

The entire point of these rules is to help players have a good time playing mafia

The point should be to make the experience as good for the players as possible and the spirit of helping the players play how they want whether that's a cooldown safety net or guaranteed immediate exit should be the point.

 

[*Splinter]

Can't have it both ways, either the games are anonymous which means pronouns need to be anonymized too or the games aren't anonymous which means pronouns are going to be a part of the solving equation.

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We can lock things down with rules as much as possible but ultimately these games run on trust. Solving via outside factors (pronouns, activity, etc) is just poor sportsmanship. Don't go looking for it and don't mention if you happen to spot it.

Hawthorn has the best solution here though. Highlight the option to play under different pronouns and pronoun solving (even by accident) becomes less viable.