Jan 31, 2018
1,430
Always find it funny that people so naively think that if religion magically disappeared one day, all the violence and bloodshed was just as magically stop. As if the actual common thread, aka people themselves, wouldn't find and invent new reasons to hurt each other. Like skin pigmentation for example. Oh wait.

Anyway, this story is horrific and while I'm not a fan of intentionally offending others just for the sake of it, the professor had every right to do what he did and small minded folks need to stop being so goddamned insecure to think they need to defend their god at every turn. Also a shame that because it's a Chechen Muslim, it's terrorism and not a clearly severely mentally ill 18 year old.
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,295
Incredibly weird seeing one post on ERA berating Macron for Islamphobia, and another with some people saying "fuck religion" and calling others people's whole beliefs cancers. Goodness gracious.
 

Davilmar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,295
Here's the thing: All religion is bad. Some people are opressed for their religion.

People using the fact that you follow a minority religion as an excuse to be racist doesn't make religion any less bad. Religion being bad doesn't make racist people any less racist. Both problems exist at the same time.

You are gonna have to define "bad" because it's not gonna be a productive conversation if we throw all beliefs out a window. And while I'm not speaking to you, this conversation reminds of the privileged position many ERA members are when it comes to living in secular or democratic societies. I've seen politics act just as "cancerous" as religious beliefs, and both can be harmful or fulfilling to people. It's almost as if nuance has disappeared from discussions here.

Speaking on the topic of the attack, there is no excuse for beheading a professor for his depiction of the prophet. Full stop. Talking about religion being bad is a judgment placed on those who follow religion, whether you want to acknowledge it or not. Religious people follow their beliefs as a reflection and extension of their identity the same way that my race, status as a minority and being the child of immigrants is an extension and reflection of me as a person. And definitely how I am treated in society. Which in the case of peaceful Muslims will nevitably be worse, and your comment doesn't help a bit.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,193
Always find it funny that people so naively think that if religion magically disappeared one day, all the violence and bloodshed was just as magically stop. As if the actual common thread, aka people themselves, wouldn't find and invent new reasons to hurt each other. Like skin pigmentation for example. Oh wait.
Here's the thing. So, in the 1960s a certain religion decided to do advisory on what is going with abortion in the USA. That group eventually became one of the biggest anti-abortion groups in the United States who actively seek to overthrow a woman's right to control their own body. I think the landscape of America would be 1 100% better without Catholicism. Would it be perfect? People harmouniously dancing in the street to true equality, freedoms, and the joys of life? No. But we can see the effects of the beliefs of religion in action and how it hurts those around us daily.
 

Acetown

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,297
As a European I hope we never again have to experience to the state of fear that we did when ISIS hit it's stride around 2014-15. What a nightmare that was.
 

takriel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,221
As a European I hope we never again have to experience to the state of fear that we did when ISIS hit it's stride around 2014-15. What a nightmare that was.
I remember being fearful of going to a concert in Switzerland of all things. It wasn't a happy time.
 

DFG

Self requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,591
It gets really tiresome when people say, "oh religious people don't take these horrible what to do things in religious books at face value" in threads about horrific actions done and justified by religion. Religious folks need to accept that people are following what is written and that is a problem. Maybe... Just maybe... There needs to be a movement to remove harmful rhetoric from these books. Any reasonable person would go, "yeah, let's remove all the murder stuff, the bigotry stuff, the hateful stuff, the just general mean parts of it"
Except Muslims believe Qoran is the complete word of God and any alteration of it is blasphemy with severe punishment. Any changes to the book is considered a false book.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,432
Here's the thing. So, in the 1960s a certain religion decided to do advisory on what is going with abortion in the USA. That group eventually became one of the biggest anti-abortion groups in the United States who actively seek to overthrow a woman's right to control their own body. I think the landscape of America would be 1 100% better without Catholicism. Would it be perfect? People harmouniously dancing in the street to true equality, freedoms, and the joys of life? No. But we can see the effects of the beliefs of religion in action and how it hurts those around us daily.

And next, let's ban ideologies (edit: in general -- because apparently this needs qualifying). Are you really not recognizing how absolutely silly and out of touch with reality it is to "ban religion"? Ow the edge. Oh hey, this happened in the early Soviet Union. By a group that used terrorist tactics to destabilize the previous regime and during their reign, by the way. Guess what, shit still sucked and people still practiced in secrecy. Problem solved though! But wait, in Western Europe over the post-war period in the 20th century, major national and social reform was spearheaded by Christian Democrat parties, including foundational work on the EU. Perhaps, religion is but part of the belief systems individuals guide themselves by and perhaps it is political conservatism in general that slows or sets back progress in social issues. I'm not even a religious person, but come on.
 
Last edited:
Oct 28, 2017
2,983
What? Communist movements sought to eliminate race and gender-based barriers for over the past hundred years. In the 60s this was even more of a common point among the communist movements. So my point is that what Malcolm X saw at Mecca, he could have seen as much of in communist movements of the era. It was in no way a religious feature, especially since religion is fundamentally exclusionary anyway.

There was no need to look into religion to see a world united across racial boundaries.

Maybe don't post Soviet propaganda posters uncritically?

Incredibly weird seeing one post on ERA berating Macron for Islamphobia, and another with some people saying "fuck religion" and calling others people's whole beliefs cancers. Goodness gracious.

There's a difference between singling out one particular religion and talking about religion in general
 

sultrines

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
272
And next, let's ban ideologies. Are you reality not recognizing how absolutely silly and out of touch with reality it is to "ban religion"? This happened in the early Soviet Union. Guess what, shit still sucked and people still practiced in secrecy. Problem solved though!

Yes problem solved. No one is having problem with people practicing religion in secrecy, them being used as political tool is the problem.

Also, some ideologies are absolutely banned, try waving the swastika in germany and see how long until you get socked in the face
 

astroturfing

Member
Nov 1, 2017
6,534
Suomi Finland
I remember being fearful of going to a concert in Switzerland of all things. It wasn't a happy time.
i remember when the Bataclan massacre happened and fucking wrecked me mentally, the very next day i went to see American musician Austin Lucas who was touring Finland, and he was devastated because he had lost some musician friend at the attack (tour worker for Eagles of Death Metal iirc), and during his show he came down to the crowd and asked us all to bunch up together and sing along with him to the memory of all who died in Paris the previous night, it was my favorite song by his as well, so it was just surreal emotionally. i'll never forget it.

and then there were so many other horrifying Islamic extremist attacks all over Europe, killing hundreds of people, i was paranoid for a long time even walking around in Finland (probably top 5 safest country in the world), then one day in 2017 i hopped on a bus, got a call from a panicked friend "where are you in Turku, go to a safe place there's an on-going terror attack near the main market, probably many dead!!" and i had just walked through the main market 30min earlier, i walk there all the time. so i'm instantly in total shock, i believed my friend because he doesnt joke around, so i told the other passengers on the bus and to call their loved ones in Turku to stay inside and people started panicking and crying and everything and i just felt completely surreal, like this cannot be happening in our safe little city... but it did. one crazy ISIS wannabe motherfucker targeted a dozen women or so and knifed them brutally in the throat etc, some young lady bled out on the street i used to live on.

the perpetrator was caught alive by our sometimes excellent cops who shot him in the leg and stopped a small mob trying to get to him, and he was brought in for treatment at the hospital i happen to work at, he was there for weeks being treated for the gunshot wound awaiting trial, and i had to walk past his room and stuff... there were cops guarding the room for fear of people rushing the hospital and coming to kill him for revenge, they even asked for my ID when i just walked past. it was a real fear back then, people were fucking furious.

now years later i don't think many even talk about him, or remember his name, which is great. i guess he's rotting in jail now. and luckily there were no copycats or anything, and i dont think nazis or alt-righters got that much of a "boost" from it, i guess it's kind of hard for them when many of the heroes of the attack were brown immigrants, who risked their lives trying to help the stabbed white women.

i just wanted to share, haven't thought about what happened in a while... i still feel so sad for the two Jehova's Witnesses who i often saw standing there near the market, even in the rain, no one caring what pamphlets they were trying to give to people, i didn't care to stop and talk to them either.. but they were human like all of us goddamnit, they did nothing to deserve a sudden butcher knife through their throats.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,432
Yes problem solved. No one is having problem with people practicing religion in secrecy, them being used as political tool is the problem.

Also, some ideologies are absolutely banned, try waving the swastika in germany and see how long until you get socked in the face

The point was banning ideologies in general. About as irrational and unproductive as banning religion in general. If your reasoning is that religion guides people to do bad things, then them being guided by it in secrecy makes no practical difference.
 
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subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,193
And next, let's ban ideologies. Are you reality not recognizing how absolutely silly and out of touch with reality it is to "ban religion"? Ow the edge. Oh hey, this happened in the early Soviet Union. By a group that used terrorist tactics to destabilize the previous regime and during their reign, by the way. Guess what, shit still sucked and people still practiced in secrecy. Problem solved though! But wait, in Western Europe over the post-war period in the 20th century, major national and social reform was spearheaded by Christian Democrat parties, including foundational work on the EU. Perhaps, religion is but part of the belief systems individuals guide themselves by and perhaps it is political conservatism in general that slows or sets back progress in social issues. I'm not even a religious person, but come on.
Ban ideologies? No. It's to ban terrible ideas.

I wish to ban hatred against minorities, to ban hatred against the LGBT+ community, to ban hatred that causes harm in all walks of life. Like, if anyone here disagrees with that then they've got some real serious problems they need to reflect on. You should want to help one another. If someone tells you, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't kill this person because of X" then you should listen. The one thing that never surprises me about religion is the backward games they will play to keep obviously horrendous, hateful, and bigoted language within their texts. I've yet to movements that go, "You know what? Let's not fuck over others" and that's the thing: religion is designed for that so it would never work,.
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
Ban ideologies? No. It's to ban terrible ideas.

I wish to ban hatred against minorities, to ban hatred against the LGBT+ community, to ban hatred that causes harm in all walks of life. Like, if anyone here disagrees with that then they've got some real serious problems they need to reflect on. You should want to help one another. If someone tells you, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't kill this person because of X" then you should listen. The one thing that never surprises me about religion is the backward games they will play to keep obviously horrendous, hateful, and bigoted language within their texts. I've yet to movements that go, "You know what? Let's not fuck over others" and that's the thing: religion is designed for that so it would never work,.
Almost like you want us to love our neighbour and act as the good samaritan?
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,193
Almost like you want us to love our neighbour and act as the good samaritan?
If that was the reality, but we know all that jazz is contradictory to whatever is in the texts. How about we keep the love thy neighbor stuff and remove anything that could cause the neighbor harm for really dumbass reasons?
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
If that was the reality, but we know all that jazz is contradictory to whatever is in the texts. How about we keep the love thy neighbor stuff and remove anything that could cause the neighbor harm for really dumbass reasons?
Maybe humans aren't being assholes because of books, but are using their interpretation of books to justify being asses.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,193
Maybe humans aren't being assholes because of books, but are using their interpretation of books to justify being asses.
So what? We should let asshole books exist in earnest?

It is so remarkable that folks REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY don't want to go, "hey let's remove this hateful shit from our religion".

LIKE WHAT BENEFIT EXISTS TO KEEPING ALL THAT SHIT IN THERE AND TEACHING IT TO KIDS?
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,432
Ban ideologies? No. It's to ban terrible ideas.

I wish to ban hatred against minorities, to ban hatred against the LGBT+ community, to ban hatred that causes harm in all walks of life. Like, if anyone here disagrees with that then they've got some real serious problems they need to reflect on. You should want to help one another. If someone tells you, "Hey, maybe we shouldn't kill this person because of X" then you should listen. The one thing that never surprises me about religion is the backward games they will play to keep obviously horrendous, hateful, and bigoted language within their texts. I've yet to movements that go, "You know what? Let's not fuck over others" and that's the thing: religion is designed for that so it would never work,.

Of course, banning hate and anti-social actions, parties and movements while safeguarding human dignity is the most important thing modern governments do. Maintaining that and expanding on it, however, does not have to come at the cost of religious thought, even though much of it is obviously rooted in a history of division and bloodshed. Saying it's banned won't be a magical off-button for the problems of modern society. Focusing on religious doctrine alone in the aftermath of terrorist attacks is overlooking so many other aspects that led to radicalization that was at the source of it. It's largely an instrument to radicalize and justify the action. Secular terrorism grounded in ideology will replace it.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,193
Of course, banning hate and anti-social actions, parties and movements while safeguarding human dignity is the most important thing modern governments do. Maintaining that and expanding on it, however, does not have to come at the cost of religious thought, even though much of it is obviously rooted in a history of division and bloodshed. Saying it's banned won't be a magical off-button for the problems of modern society. Focusing on religious doctrine alone in the aftermath of terrorist attacks is overlooking so many other aspects that led to radicalization that was at the source of it.
So in a sense:

"let's not try 'cause why bother it's the government's job to curb hateful shit"
 

Joni

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,508
So what? We should let asshole books exist in earnest?

It is so remarkable that folks REALLY REALLY REALLY REALLY don't want to go, "hey let's remove this hateful shit from our religion".

LIKE WHAT BENEFIT EXISTS TO KEEPING ALL THAT SHIT IN THERE AND TEACHING IT TO KIDS?
I think the banning of books is something you have in common with a lot of hateful regimes. Have you read the Bible, the Quran? Do you know of classes where they teach kids that hateful stuff instead of the helping people? And maybe, why don't you target those teachers?
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,193
I think the banning of books is something you have in common with a lot of hateful regimes.
I never SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BANNING BOOKS.

I said remove the hateful shit.

Do you agree? Yes or no?

That's all there is to it. A Bible with less hateful shit is good. A Quran with hateful shit is good. Tanakh is better with less hateful shit.

These aren't things that are debatable. You are either for the hateful stuff or you are not. If someone argues to see someone die use X religion as the cudgel for the reason for, to stay silent or to passively ignore / accept that is a failure.

Religious people NEED to actually accept this on a more surface level that a lot of horrendous shit is written in their texts. If Catholics are taught in church that being gay is evil then I EXPECT those against those teachings to stand up and say, "SHUT THE FUCK UP". But considering we don't get a lot of that we have to concede people just tow the religious party line AND THAT IS A PROBLEM.

But that really doesn't happen because from what we know is that religion is really good at being a victim.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,432
So in a sense:

"let's not try 'cause why bother it's the government's job to curb hateful shit"

No, not even close. If you look at the literature on terrorism, radicalization, ideological extremism and so forth, it is clear as day that it's not religion as such that's the root cause of the issue; it's a multidimensional problem that's composed of social exclusion, unemployment, undiagnosed mental health issues, poor integration, disenfranchisement, racism and a lot of other factors, which are exploited by agents who instrumentalize religion to gain allies for their cause. These are factors that governments can work on, unlike erasing a core belief system from many people's minds.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,193
No, not even close. If you look at the literature on terrorism, radicalization, ideological extremism and so forth, it is clear as day that it's not religion as such that's the root cause of the issue; it's a multidimensional problem that's composed of social exclusion, unemployment, undiagnosed mental health issues, poor integration, disenfranchisement, racism and a lot of other factors. Factors that governments can work on, unlike erasing a core belief system from many people's minds.
It isn't a "core" belief system because you are indoctrinated to believe it.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
Always find it funny that people so naively think that if religion magically disappeared one day, all the violence and bloodshed was just as magically stop. As if the actual common thread, aka people themselves, wouldn't find and invent new reasons to hurt each other. Like skin pigmentation for example. Oh wait.
That strawman argument lmao

No one said religion is the cause of all violence and bloodshed in the world
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,156
Limburg
A lot of people in this thread showing their ignorance on a variety of topics. The only reason this beheading happened was fundamentalist religion. People saying fuck religion are on the right side historically and morally. This is abhorrent and barbaric and has no place in modern society I don't care what cartoons depict it doesn't fucking excuse this shit. Trying pinhole atheists and make this about China is really desperate when there is only one group committing these atrocities in the name of a fucking dusty old book.
 

DFG

Self requested ban
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,591
That strawman argument lmao

No one said religion is the cause of all violence and bloodshed in the world
It just reads a lot like what Americans say about gun control.
I never SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BANNING BOOKS.

I said remove the hateful shit.

Do you agree? Yes or no?

That's all there is to it. A Bible with less hateful shit is good. A Quran with hateful shit is good. Tanakh is better with less hateful shit.

These aren't things that are debatable. You are either for the hateful stuff or you are not. If someone argues to see someone die use X religion as the cudgel for the reason for, to stay silent or to passively ignore / accept that is a failure.

Religious people NEED to actually accept this on a more surface level that a lot of horrendous shit is written in their texts. If Catholics are taught in church that being gay is evil then I EXPECT those against those teachings to stand up and say, "SHUT THE FUCK UP". But considering we don't get a lot of that we have to concede people just tow the religious party line AND THAT IS A PROBLEM.

But that really doesn't happen because from what we know is that religion is really good at being a victim.
How do you purpose to Muslims to change their book when their core belief is that the book is the complete word of God and final religion, and any changes are simply seen as blasphemy and never accepted?
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,432
It isn't a "core" belief system because you are indoctrinated to believe it.

Not necessarily. Religious thought, belief in higher beings and supernatural forces and, more broadly, magical thinking comes as naturally to people as breathing, and, again, there is literature on the subject. Organized religion is a byproduct of this.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,193
Not necessarily. Religious thought, belief in higher beings and supernatural forces and, more broadly, magical thinking comes as naturally to people as breathing, and, again, there is literature on the subject that supports this. Organized religion is a byproduct of this.
It actually isn't. You are not born with this belief. You are indoctrinated by those who already have been. To deny this is to accept the absurdity of religion.

But I have ask clearly:

Do you want the hateful parts of religion removed from the religious texts and teachings? Would you welcome and champion those who wish to reform these teachings?
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,193
It just reads a lot like what Americans say about gun control.

How do you purpose to Muslims to change their book when their core belief is that the book is the complete word of God and final religion, and any changes are simply seen as blasphemy and never accepted?
They just do?

We need to stop this stuff. A lot of people in well off countries have access to resources and information that can debunk what they know. They just don't care. That's a problem. We need to stop holding religion as some kind of actual authority and targeted community in these areas. A lot of religious people live in countries of wealth and good standards of living but still choose to follow and acknowledge hateful rhetoric.

Like, I've met Christians in Vancouver, Canada who go, "I don't know about gay people" and my response? "Go fuck yourself" at a certain point you cannot give these people leverage. You just cannot. To do so is a betrayal to a lot of people.
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,432
It actually isn't. You are not born with this belief. You are indoctrinated by those who already have been. To deny this is to accept the absurdity of religion.

But I have ask clearly:

Do you want the hateful parts of religion removed from the religious texts and teachings? Would you welcome and champion those who wish to reform these teachings?

To respond to the first part, religion is indeed a social construct as you're implying and as such it's taught. However, the underlying gravitation towards it and the human tendency to rationalize how things work in supernatural, non-observable terms is not taught. We do this all the time, whether we're religious or not. Some package it in a broader belief system, others don't.

As for the second, I would personally not mind religious groups to reform these texts for modern circumstances, no. I think that's probably a good thing. But in such a theoretical situation, I think it'd also be valuable to be mindful of these texts having been different at some point and discussing why things changed so as to not forget that, rather than pretending these parts never existed at all. I have no horse in the race though. Not religious. Not a fan of organized religion either. But I can recognize that banning it in general is counter-productive.
 

anamika

Member
May 18, 2018
2,622
They just do?

We need to stop this stuff. A lot of people in well off countries have access to resources and information that can debunk what they know. They just don't care. That's a problem. We need to stop holding religion as some kind of actual authority and targeted community in these areas. A lot of religious people live in countries of wealth and good standards of living but still choose to follow and acknowledge hateful rhetoric.

Like, I've met Christians in Vancouver, Canada who go, "I don't know about gay people" and my response? "Go fuck yourself" at a certain point you cannot give these people leverage. You just cannot. To do so is a betrayal to a lot of people.

Reminds me of when LGBTQ education/lessons were stopped in Birmingham schools after protests from parents. These are well off parents fully integrated into British society who still don't want their children to learn tolerance and acceptance of LGBTQ folks.
www.theguardian.com

Birmingham school stops LGBT lessons after parents protest

Hundreds of children withdrawn from Parkfield community school for day

A primary school that taught pupils about homosexuality as part of a programme to challenge homophobia has stopped the lessons after hundreds of children were withdrawn by parents in protest. Parkfield community school in Saltley, Birmingham, has been the scene of weekly protests over the lessons, which parents claim are promoting gay and transgender lifestyles.

On Friday about 600 Muslim children, aged between four and 11, were withdrawn from the school for the day, parents said. The school would not confirm the number. Last month, the Guardian reported that the assistant headteacher of the school was forced to defend the lessons after 400 predominantly Muslim parents signed a petition calling for them to be dropped from the curriculum.

Andrew Moffat, who was awarded an MBE for his work in equality education, said he was threatened and targeted via a leaflet campaign after the school piloted the No Outsiders programme. Its ethos is to promote LGBT equality and challenge homophobia in primary schools.
And then you have evangelical Christians in the US who want to ban abortion and introduce creationism and intelligent design instead of evolution in schools.
Religion is fundamentally flawed. Ancient religious scripts have no place in today's world.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,193
To respond to the first part, religion is indeed a social construct as you're implying and as such it's taught. However, the underlying gravitation towards it and the human tendency to rationalize how things work in supernatural, non-observable terms is not taught. We do this all the time, whether we're religious or not. Some package it in a broader belief system, others don't.

As for the second, I would personally not mind religious groups to reform these texts for modern circumstances, no. I think that's probably a good thing. But in such a theoretical situation, I think it'd also be valuable to be mindful of these texts having been different at some point and discussing why things changed so as to not forget that, rather than pretending these parts never existed at all. I have no horse in the race though. Not religious. Not a fan of organized religion either. But I can recognize that banning it in general is counter-productive.
You say these things like, "Yeah, I agree with it being reformed" but then say things like, "I think it'd also be valuable to be mindful of these texts having been different at some point and discussing why things changed so as to not forget that, rather than pretending these parts never existed at all. "

Like, the grand majority of people who learn this aren't unimpressionable historians learning about the past.


Like, you even say religion is a rationlization of human misunderstanding of life, but then you go, "I think it'd also be valuable to be mindful of these texts having been different at some point and discussing why things changed so as to not forget that, rather than pretending these parts never existed at all" which is again problematic because you don't realize, again, that they're not historians.

Kids do not need to be inundated with hateful rheotiic.
 

sultrines

Banned
Jan 4, 2018
272
It just reads a lot like what Americans say about gun control.

How do you purpose to Muslims to change their book when their core belief is that the book is the complete word of God and final religion, and any changes are simply seen as blasphemy and never accepted?
declaring all hadith as dhaif/ innacurate would be a nice first step. The vast majority of the problem with islam comes from hadith
 
Oct 28, 2017
2,983
If that was the reality, but we know all that jazz is contradictory to whatever is in the texts. How about we keep the love thy neighbor stuff and remove anything that could cause the neighbor harm for really dumbass reasons?


I never SAID ANYTHING ABOUT BANNING BOOKS.

I said remove the hateful shit.

Do you agree? Yes or no?

That's all there is to it. A Bible with less hateful shit is good. A Quran with hateful shit is good. Tanakh is better with less hateful shit.

These aren't things that are debatable. You are either for the hateful stuff or you are not. If someone argues to see someone die use X religion as the cudgel for the reason for, to stay silent or to passively ignore / accept that is a failure.

Religious people NEED to actually accept this on a more surface level that a lot of horrendous shit is written in their texts. If Catholics are taught in church that being gay is evil then I EXPECT those against those teachings to stand up and say, "SHUT THE FUCK UP". But considering we don't get a lot of that we have to concede people just tow the religious party line AND THAT IS A PROBLEM.

But that really doesn't happen because from what we know is that religion is really good at being a victim.

That's not how religion works.

If you honestly believe that Jesus was the son of god, or that Moses, Muhammad, or others were prophets who preached god's word, and that the holy texts are the only sources for what they teached... then you can't just go in and change everything.

You can put things in context, and say that the holy texts were written by humans of the time and influenced by their biases, and we need to interpret the texts to find out what they mean to us today.
That's what historical criticism of the bible does, and due to it for example today's Protestant churches in Europe are pretty progressive.

(I'm not religious by the way. But I left the church because I didn't believe in it, not because of any negative experiences. I know a lot of people for whom religion is a very positive force)
 

.exe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,432
You say these things like, "Yeah, I agree with it being reformed" but then say things like, "I think it'd also be valuable to be mindful of these texts having been different at some point and discussing why things changed so as to not forget that, rather than pretending these parts never existed at all. "

Like, the grand majority of people who learn this aren't unimpressionable historians learning about the past.


Like, you even say religion is a rationlization of human misunderstanding of life, but then you go, "I think it'd also be valuable to be mindful of these texts having been different at some point and discussing why things changed so as to not forget that, rather than pretending these parts never existed at all" which is again problematic because you don't realize, again, that they're not historians.

Kids do not need to be inundated with hateful rheotiic.

Extending this line of thought to the study of world history would imply we never learn about past injustices. Recognizing things changed and internalizing the reasons for it is how you make sure that conditions don't regress. The children angle is an entirely different dimension to the issue. I personally wouldn't want religious precepts forced upon my kids, but that's also different from knowledge about religion and its history, which is useful in grounding your understanding of why the world is the way it is alongside broader historical knowledge.
 

Clefargle

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,156
Limburg
That's not how religion works.

If you honestly believe that Jesus was the son of god, or that Moses, Muhammad, or others were prophets who preached god's word, and that the holy texts are the only sources for what they teached... then you can't just go in and change everything.

You can put things in context, and say that the holy texts were written by humans of the time and influenced by their biases, and we need to interpret the texts to find out what they mean to us today.
That's what historical criticism of the bible does, and due to it for example today's Protestant churches in Europe are pretty progressive.

The religious texts have been changed before, and they can be changed again. The "canon" has been decided by councils of different denominations over the centuries. If religious people want their holy book to survive modernity, they can take another pass at it themselves and figure out which parts god meant literally and metaphorically. If they don't want to do that, then why should we entertain their Bronze Age nonsense?
 

Boltar

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1
Anyway, this story is horrific and while I'm not a fan of intentionally offending others just for the sake of it
This was absolutely not the case. It was about educating future adults about freedom of speech, teaching them that being confronted to other beliefs and opinions is part of life, that it's not ok to react with violence when you don't agree with something. It was also about helping young minds to develop critical thinking, have measured reactions and not blindly follow any dogma. It was also about teaching an important event of recent French history and you can't teach it without showing it (same with racism, WW2...). All that also to ensure that these kids become balanced adult who can live in a secular country and take criticism of a religion without being personaly "offended" under false pretense. (Same way you don't say gay people just living their life are "offending" radicalized christians "for the sake of it")

This is is all part of the official Education curriculum. And the teacher showed the utmost respect towards Muslim kids by telling them they could leave the class for a while if they didn't want to see the caricatures.

I repeat, this was not the case of someone "offending" others "for the sake of it".

Also a shame that because it's a Chechen Muslim, it's terrorism and not a clearly severely mentally ill 18 year old
No.
1) It's terrorism because it's an act of terror made in the name of ideology. You don't know anything about the killer's mental state.
2) it all started because of scumbag radicalized parents trying to stir shit out of nothing, leaked the teacher's personal info clearly calling for violence against him, they even involved a radical imam who was out to get him. The teacher had already received multiple death threats from every side.
No matter who the actual killer was, this was radicalized islam through and through. This was terrorism, period.
 
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Biggersmaller

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,966
Minneapolis
This will result in a lot of "not all religion" talking points being made. Unfortunately, this enables a lot of bad behavior to be considered cultural. Labeling a beheading fundamentalist allows institutionalized sexism, homophobia, and domestic abuse to be relatively moderate...because "Hey! the vast majority don't approve of terrorism, so let's celebrate their heritage!"

And it isn't just Islam - it's traditional Catholicism, Chassidism, and the American Evangelical movement. Their everyday bigotry and abuse simply slows human progress.

Chiming in to agree that the "imagine no religion" crowd would be sorely disappointed in the results if such a thing were even possible.

Dangerous people would find other arbitrary things to attach to for the justification of senseless violence. Hell, they already do.

This is the NRA's response to gun control. Why bother? People will still be bad!
 
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NunezL

Member
Jun 17, 2020
2,722
A lot of people in Paris paying hommage to the teacher. That's heartwarming at least

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riverfr0zen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,173
Manhattan, New York
I want to know exactly how an 18 year old literally took it on themselves to go and behead another person.

Was the 18 year old already radicalized? Did he go into an online enclave, and they encouraged him to the action? Did he go his parents, and his dad told him to do it? What was different about this kid compared to his other Muslim peers? Upbringing? Background?

There have to be particular vectors for this occurrence and for me just throwing blanket assertions like "fundamentalist religion" or "oppressing government" will never find any meaningful solution in themselves. What I see in the news is that links are being investigated to organized terrorism, with the arrest of 10 people.

A lot of people in this thread showing their ignorance on a variety of topics. The only reason this beheading happened was fundamentalist religion. People saying fuck religion are on the right side historically and morally. This is abhorrent and barbaric and has no place in modern society I don't care what cartoons depict it doesn't fucking excuse this shit. Trying pinhole atheists and make this about China is really desperate when there is only one group committing these atrocities in the name of a fucking dusty old book.

Thanks, but as a lifelong atheist, this Sam Harris stance is fucking garbage. Have some respect for the situation -- why do you need to assert how "right" your stance is at this point? What is it that you think will happen? Like all of a sudden, after over ~3000 years of organized religion, the world will suddenly see how "right" you are and everyone will change?

If you can't navigate the discussion without relying on blanket assertions like this as a foundation you aren't achieving anything. You aren't being any better than the whataboutisms.


This will result in a lot of "not all religion" talking points being made. Unfortunately, this enables a lot of bad behavior to be considered cultural. Labeling a beheading fundamentalist allows institutionalized sexism, homophobia, and domestic abuse to be relatively moderate...because "Hey! the vast majority don't approve of terrorism, so let's celebrate their heritage!"

And it isn't just Islam - it's traditional Catholicism, Chassidism, and the American Evangelical movement. Their everyday bigotry and abuse simply slows human progress.

In any massive globally distributed religion with an historic dimension, it is cultural though. Many aspects, no doubt, infused through fundamentals of the religion, but it is the properties of the resulting culture that generally contribute to the outcomes.

When you say "Their everyday bigotry and abuse simply slows human progress", you must realize that the majority of human progress so far has occurred in the context of organized religion existing. Especially as an atheist you should understand that nobody knows what humanity without any religion existing would look like, so why must we deal with issues like this under the auspices of some high falutin' vision that one day it can be attained? Cos even if it can, it won't be in time to solve this problem.