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Nerokis

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,571
navigating around Mass Effect's DLC as a console gamer who still found the entire concept somewhat foreign was an experience

wait, what's this Cerberus Network thing? okay, connected my console to the internet, what am I looking at here? etc.

in the end, Mass Effect 2 is one of my favorite games of all time, I've played through it again and again, and still haven't experienced any of the DLC (including having Zareed and...Kasumi...? as characters)

EA's resistance to making all the DLC even minimally accessible has always seemed like some messy-ass bullshit, and especially in tension with Bioware's emphasis on story-relevant additional content
 

Yu Narukami

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,154
Wasn't he only DLC if you bought a used copy? I think Kingdom of Amalur had the same thing with the Arena.
 

Dragon1893

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,448
And Leviathan has the most crucial lore exposition in the franchise. The fact that it's dlc is complete bullshit.
 

Foxnull

Alt-Account
Banned
May 30, 2019
1,651
It really was a shame. You could easily tell he wasn't just another DLC character, he had so much crucial information it's not even funny. And you could just unlock him by changing a line in the .ini-file on PC, so he was probably cut out of the game to be sold seperately.
 

Majora85

Member
Nov 21, 2017
1,105
I strongly suspect Bioware themselves had little to do with it. As a developer or storyteller you generally don't want crucial chunks of your story carved out of the finished product. It reeks of EA interference.
 

JAGMASK

Member
Jan 3, 2018
422
I remember on pc you could change a 0 to a 1 in the.ini file and Javik would be unlocked without paying. That's what I did anyway 🤫
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,406
ME3's DLC was definitely a product of its time, both from a pricing and structure perspective. As a massive fan of the first two games, I really did enjoy 3 until the last half hour or so. I think it soured people to such an extent that they think the rest of the game was also bad in hindsight, but I cannot agree. Despite the nonsense pricing/distribution of the DLC, I do believe that it improved ME3 to such an extent that it can stand as a fully satisfying conclusion to the trilogy.

That being said, however, I do think that each DLC (aside from Citadel) should have been part of the base game: 1) Javik provided so much additional lore and context that fully wrapped up the Prothean storyline; 2) Leviathan provided critical story context to the origin of the Reapers and their motivation (plus the whole Lovecraftian vibe to it was awesome); and 3) Omega gave a satisfying view/conclusion to what happened on the asteroid during the war. A location as important as Omega regulated to essentially a conversation with Aria and some resource mission was extremely disappointing, but the DLC corrected that (even if it was probably the weakest of the major dlcs). Citadel is of course one of the best pieces of fan service ever.

Man, I want to replay these games again.

I feel like ME3 was an excellent game up until the final moments... it's amazing how such an ending soured the overall experience for me.

Had I played Leviathan, I think I would have been much less disappointed by the end.

I had Javik for my first playthrough and I cant imagine the game without him. Ensuring that only a minority of players get to experience such an essential character is unthinkable. It's clear that a mountain of work went into the narrative WITH HIM, and too many people missed it. If I was on Bioware, the fact that so many people would be missing the best parts of my work would bother me.
 
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monmagman

Member
Dec 6, 2018
4,126
England,UK
I mean,most of the Mass Effect dlc was essential story stuff,Leviathan had the whole origin of the Reapers stuff.....luckily like most games I waited for all the dlc to release before playing,but the base game woud have been a pretty different experience for sure.
I think it's the only game I've played where so much essential stuff was included as dlc though....rather shitty overall.
 

DarkSlayer

Member
Jan 18, 2018
45
Pakistan
Javik's DLC was something you could probably live without. To this day I've never seen how the 2008 Prince of Persia ends because the real ending was pushed out as a DLC.
 

Kaim Argonar

Member
Dec 8, 2017
2,275
No matter what they said, that was cut out from the main game because of how much they tried to destroy / get additional money from second hand sales back then.

It was a shitty thing to do.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,406
IIRC a companion needed to be cut for the game to meet its release date. The VS, Tali, Liara, and Garrus obviously could be cut for DLC. Vega couldn't because he existed to be an exposition bot for new players. EDI couldn't because she's a member of the cast anyway. That left Javik. I don't even like Bioware anymore, but I don't see what else they could've done short of delaying the game again. I guess you could go super cynical and say that the devs were just lying. But given how turbulent the game's development was and how Bioware games have always clearly had cut content I see no reason to not believe them.

This doesnt really make much sense because all of his character was on the disc on day one. All that was downloaded was a key to unlock the character and the two exclusive missions

And even if they couldnt make the release date, there was no need to charge extra to access him.
 
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Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
Cry me a river. At least what you get for that extra price was great content. And nope, it was not integral to the story.

There was a Javik earlier in the plot that was cut for time because the first draft of ME3's cut was heavily iterated because of bad writing choices and over-ambition of scope. Instead Javik's original role became the Vendetta VI in the final game and Javik became a squad mate
(first draft: you would go to Thessia REALLY early and Kai Leng steals Javik, and Cerberus has it until the penultimate mission where you learn that the Citadel is the real Catalyst. He wasn't a squad mate originally.)

So you can pack all your conspiracies that this was made for the final package and sold as DLC. The truth is they used the Certification period for the main game's release to finalize and polish this DLC and that was also when early mock reviews and evaluations came in internally when BioWare got their first wave of backlash against the incongruencies of the ending to the game, and they actually used From Ashes to foreshadow it better, realizing that it lacked context.
 
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Anoxida

Member
Oct 30, 2017
2,548
Both Leviathan and Citadel DLC too. Citadel DLC alone made me go from ranking ME3 as the worst of the trilogy to nearly taking the no.1 spot from ME2, it's the perfect sendoff and the game shouldn't honestly be played without it. Best DLC ever made.
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
And Leviathan has the most crucial lore exposition in the franchise. The fact that it's dlc is complete bullshit.
The fact that they wrote it after reading all the feedback for the initial controversy is the real bullshit here. The original ME1 codex writer (the one that wrote Leviathan of Dis) even said he never intended it to be some Reaper origin thing, just that he saw it as a myth from a previous cycle describing the Reapers or something.
 

Dandy

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,470
So basically DLC should never tie into the main story, involve anything interesting from the setting, or be impactful/compelling in any way.

Basically, stick to Pinnacle Station tier DLC, please.
 
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Sha_96

Member
Jan 22, 2019
669
They spend 2 full games hyping up the protheans and in the 3rd game we get one casually as DLC...
I played the full edition with all DLC so I didn't realize he wasn't in the base game until later, I was shocked how shitty that move was but it's EA afterall ...
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,831
Yep, I remember being extremely upset about it. It actually soured me enough to not buy any dlc or replay the game. Maybe if they were to do a re-release with everything included..
 

Megawarrior

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,355
The peak when everyone was still trying to figure out how to cut pieces of the game to sell as dlc. It was horrible.
 

EatChildren

Wonder from Down Under
Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,037
I'll maintain that story woes and climax aside, Mass Effect 3 is an absolutely fantastic game otherwise. The encounter design and combat feel is just wonderful, and a series high as far as I'm concerned. The campaign is super long and, weird story beats aside, takes you on an exciting journey that generally does a great job of capturing the feel of an enormous galactic war. The voice acting and character writing is great, and the game is loaded with memorable moments.

It also has one of my favourite multiplayers of all time. That, in a stroke of irony, actually had really fucking magnificent post launch support.
 

GroundCombo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
203
It also has one of my favourite multiplayers of all time. That, in a stroke of irony, actually had really fucking magnificent post launch support.

I played over 500 hours of it on PS3 back in the day. A few weeks back, one of my friends brought it up and a few hours later we were playing it again on fresh PC accounts; going on 100h now, still no Cerberus Harrier. I'd explode if they remastered the multiplayer part and fixed the netcode bugs. Andromeda's revamp wasn't bad, but it lacked the oomph of ME3 and jetpacks ruined the flow.

(on topic: even the DLC couldn't save the ending trainwreck. Javik did make the rest of the game better.)
 

Asbsand

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
9,901
Denmark
I feel like ME3 was an excellent game up until the final moments... it's amazing how such an ending soured the overall experience for me.
I found especially the first two missions egrigious but mostly just Earth. Now, it gets the basic points across, that is the themes: We cannot fight alone, we must band together, war is hell, people must be saved. That's all good but the continuity is not good. I like that they reflect on whether you played Mass Effect at all before, whether your played only ME1/2 or if you played Arrival but a lot of the flavor dialogue there is really bad continuity of characterization.

The tone of ME3 moreso than ME2, even when you run with an import-save is that of "As you know, EXPOSITION ABOUT STUFF YOU ALREADY KNEW", and not even dialogue you'll hear if you don't have a save import. It's like BioWare fixated so much on the new player first design that it seeped into even their "old time player" writing. It's shit like Anderson in seriousness asking "Is this (the Reapers) what Shepard warned us about?" In ME1 he was the guy who put the whole Reaper myth on us and took it so seriously, and he's now asking as if he's not even sure what it is? Then there's the "defense comittee" that is bad no matter if you played previous games or not. Like, they all look like they're about to cry and all they ask is "what should we do!?" to Shepard, there's just zero realism. The higher ups of Earth's defense is facing an unknown threat and they don't even have any of the expected gruff military "We must face the enemy!" or anything? The whole scene is played up for silly melodrama in a really patronizing way, and then when everything is already kind of egrigous you get the scene with the Vent Kid, then you get a scene where Shepard says completely stupid things like "We can't leave Earth, the fight is here!" as if he hasn't already seen how unstoppable a single Reaper was. (and there's implied to be thousands of them just within a hundred miles"

And on Mars you get stupid conversations with Ashley or Kaidan acting like schoolchildren about your time spent with Cerberus even if you resolved that Horizon encounter pretty mutually in ME2, and they also portray the new centerpiece of the plot, the Crucible in this matter-of-fact "Oh by the way, we had this weapon that will defeat the Reapers all along!" way, really nonchalantly.

But yes, after that the real ME3 story takes over and becomes mostly really good. Everything from the Turian Moon mission, the side-plots, the Citadel and all the way to, I would say, Cerberus HQ the plot is quite strong again, even though there's occasionally a sense of "What are we actually doing this for?" (because the Crucible is never developed, it keeps being "We don't know anything about it, except MAYBE it can defeat ALL THE REAPERS".

So yeah, I think ME3 is a mess. The central core of its plot is really shitty all the way, and the ending just takes an extra step attempting to introduce some overly misguided denoument, reaching for the series to have some deep and profound message about some IRL issue like "What if our electronics are dangerous to us!??" but it's as if everything around the central plot is very solid, and it makes for an awkward campaign IMO.
 

burialsociety

Member
Feb 7, 2018
301
This doesnt really make much sense because all of his character was on the disc on day one. All that was downloaded was a key to unlock the character and the two exclusive missions

And even if they couldnt make the release date, there was no need to charge extra to access him.
Yeah, so part of the content was on the disc but the rest of it needed to be finished after the game had gone gold. How does that in any way contradict what I said? Unfinished content sitting on discs for games like these isn't new, e.g. it's there for Torment, KOTOR 2, and even the previous two Mass Effect games. If you look at the early leaks, Javik's role in the game was entirely different to what we eventually got, so it was obviously reworked into something different that couldn't be finished prior to the game going gold. I already said later in the thread that charging for the DLC was a dumb move. It should've been free for new copies like Shale and Zaeed were.
 

Orangecoke

Member
Jan 14, 2019
1,812
Back then, most EA games had to have some sort of "day 1 DLC" to attach to main game sales. It was an upsell that folks could pitch to you at Gamestop (via download cards) etc. That has largely gone away due to the fact that, yes, it was shitty.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,406
Yeah, so part of the content was on the disc but the rest of it needed to be finished after the game had gone gold. How does that in any way contradict what I said? Unfinished content sitting on discs for games like these isn't new, e.g. it's there for Torment, KOTOR 2, and even the previous two Mass Effect games. If you look at the early leaks, Javik's role in the game was entirely different to what we eventually got, so it was obviously reworked into something different that couldn't be finished prior to the game going gold. I already said later in the thread that charging for the DLC was a dumb move. It should've been free for new copies like Shale and Zaeed were.

It contradicts what you said because the character was done before the game was pressed, and the two levels were done by day 1.


You mentioned later in the thread that they shouldnt have charged, but in the comment I quoted you said "I don't see what else they could've done short of delaying the game again". Well... I guess you do know what else they could have done. No one would have complained if all of the content was part of a free, day 0 update.
 

Garlador

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
14,131
Javik's DLC was something you could probably live without. To this day I've never seen how the 2008 Prince of Persia ends because the real ending was pushed out as a DLC.
PoP 2008's DLC isn't really much of an "ending" as people claim. It's more like a very inessential epilogue that doesn't resolve squat and still has the big badguy out there. It just has Elika go "I need to find my people" after hours of roaming around and running off.

I still wonder if EA pays any attention to this feedback. People love Mass Effect - in SPITE of their attempts to nickel-and-dime its fanbase to death and carve out essential parts of the story for extra cash.

They're still charging FULL PRICE for all this DLC in some case, even 10 years later.
 

burialsociety

Member
Feb 7, 2018
301
It contradicts what you said because the character was done before the game was pressed, and the two levels were done by day 1.
IIRC the character model and mission banter were on the disc. The mission and the rest of his dialogue were included in the download. Once again, it shows that all of the content wasn't finished prior to the game going through its certification and manufacturing process.
 

Uthred

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,567
That wasn't as bad as many other things done since honestly. Capcom sold Asura's Wrath ending as DLC basically. Thats probably worse alone.

They sold its ending as DLC because it did so poorly they knew they werent getting a sequel. Not ideal but better than no ending.

Javik was whatever. The story was so beyond broken after 2 that no amount of characters, DLC or otherwise, would save it. So good on them if they made a few bucks by selling the one character who was meant to sorta tie with the story as it was in ME1, but the fact that he's optional means the plot itself should work without him and doesn't get much better with him (which was the case).

Yep the story was fucked as soon as they idiotically greenlit putting a Dirty Dozen in as the middle part of a trilogy that was selling itself on its legacy elements.
 

MDSVeritas

Gameplay Programmer, Sony Santa Monica
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
1,026
This thread just reminded me how much I've been itching to do a full series replay as I've never gotten a single Shepard through the whole trilogy and I wanted to do that before playing Leviathan and Citadel, or grabbing Javik. I hear they're all really damn good too, ach!
 
Nov 14, 2017
4,928
As well as Javik, the entire back 1/3 of the game was basically empty and you could see where the DLC would fit in. There was a certain point in the story where it was like 'right! time to end now!' and it felt super abrupt. It wasn't until years later when I played it with all the DLC that had been released (especially Citadel!) that it felt like a complete package.
 

Draxyle

Member
Oct 27, 2017
15
It's still the reason I've never touched ME3 – it was so absurdly offensive to me from a storytelling perspective. How do you write a character-based story that allows for a central party member to be cut out on a whim?
 

dunkzilla

alt account
Banned
Dec 13, 2018
4,762
I was in the middle of studying for exams and bought ME3 late so got the like super deluxe version for like 20 quid. Never realised he was paid DLC.

Also that first hot dog looks way WAY better than the second.
 

lorddarkflare

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,266
I'll maintain that story woes and climax aside, Mass Effect 3 is an absolutely fantastic game otherwise. The encounter design and combat feel is just wonderful, and a series high as far as I'm concerned. The campaign is super long and, weird story beats aside, takes you on an exciting journey that generally does a great job of capturing the feel of an enormous galactic war. The voice acting and character writing is great, and the game is loaded with memorable moments.

It also has one of my favourite multiplayers of all time. That, in a stroke of irony, actually had really fucking magnificent post launch support.

The bolded cannot be overstated.

They sold its ending as DLC because it did so poorly they knew they werent getting a sequel. Not ideal but better than no ending.



Yep the story was fucked as soon as they idiotically greenlit putting a Dirty Dozen in as the middle part of a trilogy that was selling itself on its legacy elements.

I have always felt this. I know people loved how Mass Effect 2 was structured, but it always felt like they set themselves up for failure for 3.
 

spacer

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,968
Javik was inconsequential to the series. Yeah having a Prothean squadmate is cool, but he was ultimately irrelevant.

The bigger dick move was making Arrival a separate DLC instead of part of ME2.
 

Mansa Mufasa

Member
Jun 17, 2019
1,363
Toronto
Oh man, suddenly realizing I'm still unhappy about how EA handled all of the Mass Effect DLC. I still can't believe I had to pay extra to find out what Liara was up to in Mass Effect 2.

I think there is a substantial difference between those two cases. EA has done a lot of shit but Lair of the shadow broker I won't hold against them
 

Lyre

Alt Account
Banned
Feb 12, 2020
2,996
London
Noooo no no no no, it's not even the worst thing that Electronic Republicans have done.

Who remembers Dragon Age where they tried to shark you out of money while you're in your camp?

Jokers.
 

IvorB

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,995
I dunno... that second hot dog looks a little too much to me. Is that chilli con carne and guacamole on there? Must be a US thing I reckon. First one is classic and maybe just needs some Ketchup.