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JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,029
If Ukraine ceded the occupied territories Russia would just launch a new offensive. Russia wants a territorial dispute because they know that will keep Ukraine out of NATO.

As noted several times. Hell, as SFLUFAN further points out, that's also having to trust that the alliance could even all agree to Ukraine's entry in the first place, nevermind the subsequent likelihood that there's never a chance to actually discuss such from repeated Russian incursion - which itself could end up a factor against such a proposal.

It's just so contingent on a bunch of 'ideal' probabilities after that first bitter pill that you'd be hard pressed to convince anyone of it, even if the option is technically there. While on the flip side, there's not really a lot else to be given that would even seem to nominally satisfy Russia's interests that NATO or Ukraine are in a position to really give. It's hard to see what solution they can really bring together
 

Kinan

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
648
There is absolutely no scenario under which ANY form of Ukraine joins NATO, not with NATO membership being contingent upon unanimous consent of all its member states.
Well, without NATO ony way for Ukraine to secure its independence is to become a nuclear power again. We'll never trust another treaty/agreement/memorandum with Russia again, not in 20 years. Everyone would be against another nuclear player though, and it would be huge drain on the economy. It also can only be done if we do not lose east, where our rocket technology/production is based.

So what, that was it for Ukraine? Early 20th century is back and stronger military and readiness to fight means everything? North Korea and China are smiling already, and it is not a good smile. This, right now, is the last chance to save the postWW2 world order. Otherwise all the losses and suffering were for nothing.
 

Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,888
Manchester, UK
User Banned (2 weeks): trolling over a series of posts
I got some messages last night, coincidentally, from old friends in the USA. They were chiding and deriding the German response to all this (of which there surely are areas to criticise), but the weirdest thing I was hearing from them is how they were egging on the idea of getting into armed conflict here. Like as if they wanted it.

The fact that I got these messages out of the blue after not hearing from these people in a while tells me that the american government and media machine are suddenly pushing very hard for armed conflict in a way that I find scary and dumb.

Russia is obviously the aggressor here, yet I am disturbed by the fanatical adherence to war being the answer that I heard from these friends of mine in the USA.

Have you met any Americans?

It's amazing that just months after leaving Afghanistan, so many in the USA (and the UK too tbf) are so keen on getting involved in another foreign war that will definitely go well and improve things for the people who live there this time.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,381
Have you met any Americans?

It's amazing that just months after leaving Afghanistan, so many in the USA (and the UK too tbf) are so keen on getting involved in another foreign war that will definitely go well and improve things for the people who live there this time.
I suspect if you polled Americans you'd be surprised at how low the number that wanted to go to war with Russia would be. We hear from those living in other countries that Americans want war but just about every American in this thread says that they don't and those they know IRL don't. It'd be nice if posters either found real evidence rather than (my American friends) or stopped the "Americans want to go to war with Russia" narrative.
 

RetroRunner

Member
Dec 6, 2020
4,927
Have you met any Americans?

It's amazing that just months after leaving Afghanistan, so many in the USA (and the UK too tbf) are so keen on getting involved in another foreign war that will definitely go well and improve things for the people who live there this time.
Are you referring to offsite discussions? Because so far in 2500 posts I don't think I've seen a single soul advocate for American troops to go into Ukraine to help fight Russia.
 

Lidl

Member
Dec 12, 2017
2,568
i don't know what people are expecting of Germany

1. The state of the Bundeswehr is really bad, we can't even defend ourselves if it was needed
2. Sending weapons to countries in a state of conflict is not legally possible by German law
3. Germany being involved in any conflict that isn't in the role of humanitarian aid is *extremely* unpopular among the German population
4. German soldiers aren't going to be involved in any combat capacity regardless

Even when Germany was involved in Afghanistan because the U.S invoked the NATO treaty, soldiers were barely in any combat roles. Germany's current limits/foreign policiy regarding this isn't based on the pipeline, even if the pipeline didn't exist, all above points would still be the case. There has always been a fuck ton of U.S propaganda that Germany is held hostage by Russian gas, which is false, and the only reason the U.S' propaganda efforts were so is because the U.S has always wanted to sell LNG to Germany. The main reason for Germany's current stance are the above points.

I'm never going to give any weight to U.S criticism of pipeline because of the ulterior motives the U.S has always had with it

New York Times is spewing USA state department propaganda. If the pipeline didn't even exist, the policy and strategy of Germany will be practically the same, this an issue that is much further detached and has to do with cultural changes and expectations than anything else. Imagine if Germany had the second or third strongest army in the world (which it could), and would be forceful in Europe, imagine how much people would lose their minds then. It's a catch 22 issue, New York Times would be running opposite bullshit if Germany actually did invest and grow it's military to be the security force of Europe
1. You have plenty of idle hardware laying around

2. Much against law, very impossible
www.bbc.com

Germany to supply arms to Kurds fighting IS in Iraq

Germany will send enough weapons to equip 4,000 Kurdish fighters defending areas of northern Iraq against Islamist militants.

3. Didn't matter too much for your past governments when it fit their geopolitical goals
www.dw.com

Combat Troops – DW – 03/24/2009

Ten years ago, German fighter planes participated in NATO air strikes against Serbian targets. As the bombs dropped, Germany’s armed forces joined in their first modern combat mission.

4. Your military is currently at least involved in Mali & against pirates near the Red Sea and both of those missions entail combat if necessary

To me the main issue here is that a) your country's policy for more than a century has been to connect to Russia directly (either in a friendly fashion or by conquest), more or less disregarding the countries between you and them and b) your political class is infected with Russia money
 
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Newlib

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,822
Have you met any Americans?

It's amazing that just months after leaving Afghanistan, so many in the USA (and the UK too tbf) are so keen on getting involved in another foreign war that will definitely go well and improve things for the people who live there this time.

I don't think I have seen any American clamoring for war. Instead, all I have heard is we should be doing everything to support the Ukraine short of sending troops.

I have yet to see what people think the US should do instead of what it is doing.
 

Thorn

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
24,446
I've not seen anyone going "FUCK YEAH WAR WITH RUSSIA" but it seems people are bouncing back and forth between "Biden is too weak on a response" and "Biden is being a Warhawk."

So there's no winning.
 

SFLUFAN

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,419
Alexandria, VA
Well, without NATO ony way for Ukraine to secure its independence is to become a nuclear power again. We'll never trust another treaty/agreement/memorandum with Russia again, not in 20 years. Everyone would be against another nuclear player though, and it would be huge drain on the economy. It also can only be done if we do not lose east, where our rocket technology/production is based.

So what, that was it for Ukraine? Early 20th century is back and stronger military and readiness to fight means everything? North Korea and China are smiling already, and it is not a good smile. This, right now, is the last chance to save the postWW2 world order. Otherwise all the losses and suffering were for nothing.

I'm going to give you a hard truth: yes, that was it for Ukraine and the post-WWII/post Cold War world order.

There really is no domestic political will in either the United States or Western Europe to shed blood on behalf of Ukraine and the most Kyiv is going to get from the West is a few weapons systems and the international relations equivalent of "thoughts and prayers".

The only viable and realistic way forward is to reach some type of accommodation with Moscow, because the West isn't riding in to save the day.

I'm sorry, but that's reality.
 

myth

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jul 15, 2021
283
There really are people that would let Russia just invade a European country, huh?
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
Have you met any Americans?

It's amazing that just months after leaving Afghanistan, so many in the USA (and the UK too tbf) are so keen on getting involved in another foreign war that will definitely go well and improve things for the people who live there this time.
This situation seems to exist entirely in your head.
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,088
Arkansas, USA
I advocated for a substantial deployment of American troops to NATO countries in Eastern Europe. If we aren't going to take the sovereignty/security of Ukraine seriously it calls into doubt the viability of NATO entirely. Which was founded for the precise purpose of curtailing USSR/Russian aggression. If it isn't going to fulfill that purpose then NATO might as well be disbanded. Which is exactly what Putin wants to happen by the way.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,963
Have you met any Americans?

It's amazing that just months after leaving Afghanistan, so many in the USA (and the UK too tbf) are so keen on getting involved in another foreign war that will definitely go well and improve things for the people who live there this time.
What are you even talking about? People just see a nation struggling and want to help somehow. The random shitty weirdos with a tank fetish are just that, shitty weirdos, and are not in any way normal or common.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,381
I've not seen anyone going "FUCK YEAH WAR WITH RUSSIA" but it seems people are bouncing back and forth between "Biden is too weak on a response" and "Biden is being a Warhawk."

So there's no winning.
Russia is on the verge of invading an independent country so, of course, several Era members need to try to figure out how that's really the fault of the US. It's bizarre. There are a ton of legitimate and valid reasons to critique the US. The Ukraine situation is not one of them.
 

BossAttack

Member
Oct 27, 2017
43,040
I don't understand why the Ukranians are being so unreasonable. Geez, just cede away your sovereign territory to Russia under threat of overwhelming firepower. Putin just wants to be able to protect Russians, he's not going to take the whole territory. And really, historically Ukraine has been part of Russia, so in reality they are just taking back land that has historically been under Russian control since the time of the Tsars. We mustn't forget how Russia was thoroughly embarrassed by the Fall of the Soviet Union and forced to accept unequal terms and land loss as a result of the collapse due to Western pressure. The West really should be grateful Putin is only seeking so little.😕

I think I've heard this album before.
 

Kinan

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
648
I'm going to give you a hard truth: yes, that was it for Ukraine and the post-WWII/post Cold War world order.

There really is no domestic political will in either the United States or Western Europe to shed blood on behalf of Ukraine and the most Kyiv is going to get from the West is a few weapons systems and the international relations equivalent of "thoughts and prayers".

The only viable and realistic way forward is to reach some type of accommodation with Moscow, because the West isn't riding in to save the day.

I'm sorry, but that's reality.

So it is for Ukraine to save the world this time, huh? We'll do our best. At least this time we'll not have Poland attacking from the back.
 

Timmm

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,888
Manchester, UK
Why can't era help itself?

Ukraine has been begging for help for 8 years now.

Are you referring to offsite discussions? Because so far in 2500 posts I don't think I've seen a single soul advocate for American troops to go into Ukraine to help fight Russia.

I don't think I have seen any American clamoring for war. Instead, all I have heard is we should be doing everything to support the Ukraine short of sending troops.

I have yet to see what people think the US should do instead of what it is doing.

I suspect if you polled Americans you'd be surprised at how low the number that wanted to go to war with Russia would be. We hear from those living in other countries that Americans want war but just about every American in this thread says that they don't and those they know IRL don't. It'd be nice if posters either found real evidence rather than (my American friends) or stopped the "Americans want to go to war with Russia" narrative.

I don't think many Americans are pro-war (especially after Iraq/Afghanistan), this is different than the "fanatical adherence to war being the answer" in the other post that I responded to though - which, unless you think Dictator is making things up - seems to have actually happened

I do think many politicians and those in the media are pro-war though: hence the change in rhetoric recently - they know this would not be popular but need to sell it as being "humanitarian" or something, much like how suddenly there were a load of articles about women's rights in Afghanistan just when the troops were being withdrawn
 

RetroRunner

Member
Dec 6, 2020
4,927
I don't think many Americans are pro-war (especially after Iraq/Afghanistan), this is different than the "fanatical adherence to war being the answer" in the other post that I responded to though.

I do think many politicians and those in the media are pro-war though: hence the change in rhetoric recently - they know this would not be popular but need to sell it as being "humanitarian" or something, much like how suddenly there were a load of articles about women's rights in Afghanistan just when the troops were being withdrawn
So to be clear you think American politicians want American troops on the ground in Ukraine to fight Russia?
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
I advocated for a substantial deployment of American troops to NATO countries in Eastern Europe. If we aren't going to take the sovereignty/security of Ukraine seriously it calls into doubt the viability of NATO entirely. Which was founded for the precise purpose of curtailing USSR/Russian aggression. If it isn't going to fulfill that purpose then NATO might as well be disbanded. Which is exactly what Putin wants to happen by the way.
NATO is a defensive alliance, of which Ukraine is not a member. It is not a core responsibility of NATO to protect non-members from attack.
I don't think many Americans are pro-war (especially after Iraq/Afghanistan), this is different than the "fanatical adherence to war being the answer" in the other post that I responded to though - which, unless you think Dictator is making things up - seems to have actually happened

I do think many politicians and those in the media are pro-war though: hence the change in rhetoric recently - they know this would not be popular but need to sell it as being "humanitarian" or something, much like how suddenly there were a load of articles about women's rights in Afghanistan just when the troops were being withdrawn
Who are these politicians and who in the media are advocating for the US to go to war with Russia?

This is a fantasy. It isn't happening.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,241
There really are people that would let Russia just invade a European country, huh?
I can only speak for myself, but my view isn't so much as we should just let them do it as it is me just accepting that NATO and the US are not going to war with Russia over this. There is a difference between the two.


NATO has already said that they will not be deploying NATO troops to Ukraine and the US is not going to fight Russia directly without NATO. So the best that we can hope for is that Russia either backs off or holds off long enough for Ukraine to receive more foreign aid to help alleviate the inevitable humanitarian crisis.


It absolutely ridiculous and unfair that Ukraine has been out into this position though. I don't think you will find anyone in here that would disagree with that.
 

maabus1999

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,990
If Ukraine is attacked, while a direct military intervention won't happen from the west to start, they definitely will continue funneling weapons to Ukrainians ala Afghanistan. Western Ukraine has borders with NATO countries plus some of that terrain is fairly rugged allowing guerilla tactics to be used, even against a massive Russian force (which I doubt they want to keep there).

While Russia may seize the country quickly, the conflict will not be over for years until Russia withdraws if the West so chooses to support the Ukrainians.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,381
When did I say that?
I don't think that many of us can make heads or tails of what you're saying. Are you saying that sending weapons is bad? No one is saying "here's a javelin - take some preemptive shots at Russian tanks". If the weapons are supplied there'd still be the hope that they're not needed or used. It seems smarter to supply them, given the reality that they may well be needed, than to withhold them and make it that much harder for Ukraine to defend itself.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
I know that, but Russia invading a sovereign European country that happens to not be a member of NATO is nonetheless a situation of high importance to every member country (as well as the ones that are not).
Of course it is, but NATO not defending a non-member from attack doesn't invalidate the reason for NATO to exist. If anything it validates the importance of actually being a member.
 

Newlib

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,822
I can only speak for myself, but my view isn't so much as we should just let them do it as it is me just accepting that NATO and the US are not going to war with Russia over this. There is a difference between the two.


NATO has already said that they will not be deploying NATO troops to Ukraine and the US is not going to fight Russia directly without NATO. So the best that we can hope for is that Russia either backs off or holds off long enough for Ukraine to receive more foreign aid to help alleviate the inevitable humanitarian crisis.


It absolutely ridiculous and unfair that Ukraine has been out into this position though. I don't think you will find anyone in here that would disagree with that.

The West has sold out the Ukrainians numerous times throughout its history. What's one more for old time's sake?
 

Stop It

Bad Cat
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,352
So let me get this straight.

Russia wants to assert that they respect sovereign rights and that foreign interventions in places like Belarus when it comes to the failure of democracy is unacceptable.

But they also want the right to tell Georgia and Ukraine what alliances they can join.

Putin can either accept that he wants to meddle with other countries rights, or he doesn't. Pick one.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
You are trying to force an statement I am not saying.

Being pro-war and wanting direct involvement of American soldiers in a war are not the same thing.
…so you saying the US wants a war between Russia and Ukraine?

Because no, they don't. The only one who seems to want a fight here is Russia, as this entire affair is a provocation of their own design.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,241
The West has sold out the Ukrainians numerous times throughout its history. What's one more for old time's sake?
Nobody is selling out anybody. NATO and the US are shipping billions of dollars in military equipment to Ukraine to try and help. And if Russia does make a move then regardless of the outcome there with be economic repercussions for Russia.


Selling them out would be turning a blind eye completely and there being no repercussions at all.
 

myth

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Jul 15, 2021
283
I can only speak for myself, but my view isn't so much as we should just let them do it as it is me just accepting that NATO and the US are not going to war with Russia over this. There is a difference between the two.


NATO has already said that they will not be deploying NATO troops to Ukraine and the US is not going to fight Russia directly without NATO. So the best that we can hope for is that Russia either backs off or holds off long enough for Ukraine to receive more foreign aid to help alleviate the inevitable humanitarian crisis.


It absolutely ridiculous and unfair that Ukraine has been out into this position though. I don't think you will find anyone in here that would disagree with that.
well i also wasnt talking about sending troops as of now, but we should be funding ukraines defenses immediately.
 

Sidebuster

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,408
California
People who don't want the U.S.A/E.U./NATO to do anything to help Ukraine are the same people who lay down and expose their neck at the first sign of a threat think everyone else should do the same and it's morally right.

I don't want any wars, but I do want the U.S.A (or E.U. / NATO for that matter) to defend any country that asks for help in their own defense (of their already, long established borders) and for America to leave/stop as soon as they're asked. It's not rocket science. It's helping a country defend itself from hostile invaders in a time where there should be no such thing.
 

poklane

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,959
the Netherlands
The biggest problem for NATO as an organization when it comes to these wars started by Russia is that Russia back in 2014 showed the world for the third time that they can in fact stop a country from joining NATO by invading them. They did it with Moldova in the 90s, they did it with Georgia in 2008 and they did it again in 2014 with Ukraine.
The North Atlantic Treaty needs to be amended to give countries with territorial disputes and ongoing conflicts a way into NATO.
 

LegendofJoe

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,088
Arkansas, USA
Of course it is, but NATO not defending a non-member from attack doesn't invalidate the reason for NATO to exist. If anything it validates the importance of actually being a member.

If the Baltics and other former Societ bloc countries lose faith in NATO because of a lack of care for what is happening to Ukraine then it will weaken NATO, substantially I think. That's why I think member countries should take action to give them no reason to doubt the future of NATO. And as you said it would likely encourage counties that aren't members such as Finland to join.

The goal should be deterrence from further aggression.
 

Coyote Starrk

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
53,241
If the Baltics and other former Societ bloc countries lose faith in NATO because of a lack of care for what is happening to Ukraine then it will weaken NATO, substantially I think. That's why I think member countries should take action to give them no reason to doubt the future of NATO. And as you said it would likely encourage counties that aren't members such as Finland to join.

The goal should be deterrence from further aggression.
What action do you think they should take?
 

orochi91

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,825
Canada
Ukraine is basically a write-off at this point, but this incident should motivate all non-NATO countries in the region to join the alliance ASAP.

There's literally no downside to it.
 

excelsiorlef

Bad Praxis
Member
Oct 25, 2017
73,330
Have you met any Americans?

It's amazing that just months after leaving Afghanistan, so many in the USA (and the UK too tbf) are so keen on getting involved in another foreign war that will definitely go well and improve things for the people who live there this time.

Ukraine isn't Iraq or Afghanistan
 
May 14, 2021
16,731
Have you met any Americans?

It's amazing that just months after leaving Afghanistan, so many in the USA (and the UK too tbf) are so keen on getting involved in another foreign war that will definitely go well and improve things for the people who live there this time.
This is a stupid observation based in zero facts.
 

Deleted member 43

Account closed at user request
Banned
Oct 24, 2017
9,271
If the Baltics and other former Societ bloc countries lose faith in NATO because of a lack of care for what is happening to Ukraine then it will weaken NATO, substantially I think. That's why I think member countries should take action to give them no reason to doubt the future of NATO. And as you said it would likely encourage counties that aren't members such as Finland to join.

The goal should be deterrence from further aggression.
And NATO is taking steps to help Ukraine, short of actually committing troops to its defense. Because it's not a NATO member. If it were a NATO member, things would be very different, as the Baltic nations are well aware, as it's not their borders that are currently surrounded by 100,000 Russian troops.
 
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