Massive Russian military buildup near Ukraine

[myth]

Russian demands have included removal of troops and weapons back to 1997 deployments.

Russia issues list of demands it says must be met to lower tensions in Europe | Russia | The Guardian

Contentious security guarantees Moscow is seeking include a ban on Ukraine from entering Nato

amp.theguardian.com

Russia at least does want US weapons out of Ukraine.

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u do know that quote is is about countries like poland and the baltic states, not ukraine

 

[Deleted member 43]

Because the whole theory that anyone who is not supporting selling arms to Ukraine is either a fascist sympathizer or a Russian spy kinda breaks down when you remember that Obama held that position as well, for years, against the screams of Republicans who called him weak.

But it's much easier to call anyone you disagree with a Russian bot (which btw is not an "inflammatory accusation" because reasons).

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Again, show me a quote from Obama about the situation now that echos this point, not one about the situation 8 years ago.

Russian demands have included removal of troops and weapons back to 1997 deployments.

Russia issues list of demands it says must be met to lower tensions in Europe | Russia | The Guardian

Contentious security guarantees Moscow is seeking include a ban on Ukraine from entering Nato

amp.theguardian.com

Russia at least does want US weapons out of Ukraine.

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Their demand is about NATO weapon systems in NATO nations, not any weapons ever sold to any sovereign nation's military.

You are being purposely obtuse.

 

[TortadeJamon]

And these same people dare to call themselves socialists or progressives...

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Why so surprised? Many such people supported the Soviets for decades, and some still try making excuses for them. They're no better than neo-Nazis.

 

[BringBackSonics]

Russian demands have included removal of troops and weapons back to 1997 deployments.

Russia at least does want US weapons out of Ukraine.

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That seems reasonable, what's wrong with the west not agreeing to that

 

[Lausebub]

If Putin wants to invade Ukraine, the Baltics, Finnland and Poland, who are we to tell him not to do that. The US fucked over the middle east so Russia now gets a "invasion of other countries for free card. It's only fair.

/s if that wasn't obvious.

 

[Wilf Netherton]

Again, show me a quote from Obama about the situation now that echos this point, not one about the situation 8 years ago.

Their demand is about NATO weapon systems in NATO nations, not any weapons ever sold to any sovereign nation's military.

You are being purposely obtuse.

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I don't believe that is true. I think Russia has been clear they do not want NATO supplied weapons in Ukraine.

Putin has described NATO membership for Ukraine and the others as well as the alliance's weapons deployments there as a red line for Moscow, warning that he would order unspecified "military-technical measures" if the demands aren't met.

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Russia toughens its posture amid Ukraine tensions

With tens of thousands of Russian troops positioned near Ukraine, the Kremlin has kept the U.S. and its allies guessing about its next moves in the worst security crisis to emerge between Moscow and the West since the Cold War.

apnews.com

 

[excelsiorlef]

I don't believe that is true. I think Russia has been clear they do not NATO supplied weapons in Ukraine.

Russia toughens its posture amid Ukraine tensions

With tens of thousands of Russian troops positioned near Ukraine, the Kremlin has kept the U.S. and its allies guessing about its next moves in the worst security crisis to emerge between Moscow and the West since the Cold War.

apnews.com

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Of course they don't because they want to annex Ukraine

 

[LegendofJoe]

Would u say the same if the roles were nazi germany and czechoslovakia/poland in the 30s?

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I have to say it's pretty alarming to see Russia give the exact same justification for invading countries that Nazi Germany did in the beginning - to protect ethnic Russians and Germans respectively.

 

[UnderNewOwnership]

When it came to foreign policy, especially with Russia, Obama was an idiot.

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This isn't emphasized enough. His foreign policy ideas were terrible. Especially when it came to Putin's Russia.

Like, this mothefucker fabricated a casus belli against a small neighbor out of whole cloth the previous year, and you pull that imbecilic "reset button" stunt?
What the fuck is there to reset?

 

[Deleted member 43]

I don't believe that is true. I think Russia has been clear they do not want NATO supplied weapons in Ukraine.

Russia toughens its posture amid Ukraine tensions

With tens of thousands of Russian troops positioned near Ukraine, the Kremlin has kept the U.S. and its allies guessing about its next moves in the worst security crisis to emerge between Moscow and the West since the Cold War.

apnews.com

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The alliance doesn't have weapons in Ukraine. We have sold or given weapons to Ukraine, those are now their weapons.

And, guess what? Russia doesn't have the right to say shit about that, because they are not the master of the sovereign nation of Ukraine.

But if you want to keep going to bat for Russian imperialism, go nuts.

 

[Lidl]

We don't have to send troops (even though we have 8500 at the ready for a possible NATO operation) to dissent and disagree on our role in this conflict. I've already made clear my views on sending weapons to forces that include Nazi/nationalists.

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This is nearly irrelevant in the discussion about a (repeated) looming Russian aggression against Ukraine. Why?

• In 2019 Ukrainians elected a Jewish president
• Between 2016 and 2019 Ukraine had a Jewish prime minister who had been appointed by the previous president
• In the 2019 parliamentary elections the far right party platform (Svoboda, Right Sector and a new party by the founder of the Azov battalion) secured 2.15% of the votes - pretty much all of the Western European countries have a higher turnout for far right
• Ukraine is host to the largest Jewish pilgrimage (to my knowledge) and are progressive in terms LGBTQ rights by Eastern European standards

Now looking at this do you think that a Nazi takeover of Ukraine is imminent?
And if Russia took over Ukraine, do you think that the human rights situation would improve there? Are you aware of the human right situation in Russia or the so called people's republics in Donbas? Is that something that minorities should look forward to in Ukraine?

 

[Forerunner]

Here's What Those 'Bunker-Defeat' Rockets The U.S. Sent To Ukraine Are Actually Capable Of

The M141 Bunker Defeat Munition is a relatively obscure weapon in the U.S. military's arsenal with capabilities beyond what's it name might suggest.

www.thedrive.com

The U.S. government, among others, has been stepping up deliveries of weapons and other military aid to Ukraine amid increasingly worrisome signs that Russia may be about to launch a new invasion of that country. The spotlight has primarily been on shipments of guided anti-tank missiles, especially U.S.-made Javelins and British-supplied NLAWs. Announcements that Latvian and Lithuanian authorities plan to send American-produced Stinger shoulder-fired surface-to-air missiles have also drawn attention, but to a lesser degree. However, the U.S. military has recently highlighted the transfer of pallet loads of a more obscure weapon system with an unusual name that doesn't necessarily reflect its full capabilities: the M141 Bunker Defeat Munition.

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The M141 is a very different weapon from the Javelin, an advanced guided anti-tank missile that has become a hallmark of U.S. military assistance to Ukraine and that you can read more about here. The Bunker Defeat Munition (BDM) is a disposable single-shot launcher preloaded with an unguided 83mm rocket-propelled projectile designed to engage targets at relatively short ranges.

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M141 is derived from Mk 153 Shoulder-Launched Multipurpose Assault Weapon (SMAW), a reloadable shoulder-fired weapon that McDonnell Douglas developed from the Israeli-designed B-300 for the U.S. Marine Corps in the 1980s. The BDM fires a so-called high-explosive dual-purpose (HEDP) round that is similar to the one available for the SMAW, but with a redesigned rocket motor that reduces its range. The M141 has an effective firing range of up to 250 meters, while the latest versions of the SMAW can reliably engage threats out to 500 meters.

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Overall, the BDM is more akin to the most modern variants of the venerable M72 Light Anti-Tank Weapon (LAW), a disposable, single-shot, shoulder-fired launcher pre-loaded with one of a number of types of rockets, including an anti-structure type. For added context, the most recent versions of the shoulder-fired Javelin missile have an effective range of up to 4,000 meters.

However, the M141 definitely still has its uses and could be a handy addition to Ukraine's arsenal. While the weapon was designed to engage enemy fortifications, its HEDP round can be employed against other kinds of structures and fortified positions. For instance, in the early phases of U.S. operations in Afghanistan following the 9/11 terrorist attacks, American troops used BDMs to collapse caves that Taliban militants and Al Qaeda terrorists were using as fighting positions.

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For Ukraine's military, M141s could give small units additional immediate firepower, especially against troops and light vehicles in urban areas that might be using structures for cover. BDMs might be useful for groups ambushing convoys of unarmored support and supply vehicles, or conducting raids against enemy encampments, missions that Ukrainian troops might find themselves increasingly engaged in should Russian forces push deep into the country's territory. It is important to note that this weapon does have a significant backblast while firing, which precludes it from being employed from inside confined spaces, such as a room inside a building, forcing the user to expose themselves at least to some degree.

Beyond their utility against various different target sets, the M141s have the benefit of being easier to train personnel to use compared to more complex guided missile systems, such as Javelin. This relative ease of use also opens up the possibility of distributing them on a wider basis and utilizing them, where appropriate, in lieu of missiles, helping to preserve stocks of those weapons for higher-priority targets.

Regardless of how Ukraine might issue its new M141s and employ them, the most important thing is that, despite their name, they are not limited to engaging bunkers and similar fortifications. While the BDM is in no way a substitute for anti-tank guided missiles, they are still very much multi-purpose weapons that could give even small continents of Ukrainian troops additional capabilities and capacity to engage a variety of targets in any future conflict.

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[sacrament]

I don't believe that is true. I think Russia has been clear they do not NATO supplied weapons in Ukraine.

Russia toughens its posture amid Ukraine tensions

With tens of thousands of Russian troops positioned near Ukraine, the Kremlin has kept the U.S. and its allies guessing about its next moves in the worst security crisis to emerge between Moscow and the West since the Cold War.

apnews.com

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All the better to eat them then. The demands are completely unreasonable, and requests to have the west disengage with a democratic country which actively wants to engage with the west is farcical.

So who cares what one man baby wants - his precious ego is going to get thousands of people killed. And that's some total bullshit, and you defending that as though Ukraine or NATO is suddenly going to leap up and attack Russia is stupid.

 

[cyress8]

Russia at least does want US weapons out of Ukraine.

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The thing that is an issue with me. Ukraine is its own country which could and should be able to do this even if not under the pressure of Russia.

 

[BossAttack]

I don't believe that is true. I think Russia has been clear they do not want NATO supplied weapons in Ukraine.

Russia toughens its posture amid Ukraine tensions

With tens of thousands of Russian troops positioned near Ukraine, the Kremlin has kept the U.S. and its allies guessing about its next moves in the worst security crisis to emerge between Moscow and the West since the Cold War.

apnews.com

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Russia: "Hey you, a free sovereign nation. Do not accept any military equipment or enter into any defensive alliances against us!"

Ukraine: "Um, who are you to tell us what to do? And why? Are you planning to invade us?"

Russia: 😏

 

[YamchasRevenge]

The "Ukraine is a Nazi state" argument doesn't hold water when the country elected a Jewish president in a landslide.

 

[excelsiorlef]

The thing that is an issue with me. Ukraine is its own country which could and should be able to do this even if not under the pressure of Russia.

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I'm pretty sure if Russia demanded Western Countries ban gay marriage or else.... this dude would declare our refusals an act of aggression and war against Russia lol

 

[Lausebub]

That seems reasonable, what's wrong with the west not agreeing to that

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How is that reasonable? Those countries are not Russian puppet states anymore. If Russia would stop annexing and intervering into their neighboring countries, those countries probably wouldn't even think about joining Nato. The only reason why Finnland and Sweden are now strongly considering joining Nato is Russia amassing over 100k troops around the Ukrainian border.

 

[Guts Of Thor]

The alliance doesn't have weapons in Ukraine. We have sold or given weapons to Ukraine, those are now their weapons.

And, guess what? Russia doesn't have the right to say shit about tha, because they are not the master of the sovereign nation of Ukraine.

But if you want to keep going to bat for Russian imperialism, go nuts.

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I'm glad you pointed this out. Who gives a fuck what Putin demands? Fuck him, he has absolutely no power in telling Ukraine what they can and cannot do.

 

[kmfdmpig]

How is that reasonable? Those countries are not Russian puppet states anymore. If Russia would stop annexing and intervering into their neighboring countries, those countries probably wouldn't even think about joining Nato. The only reason why Finnland and Sweden are now strongly considering joining Nato is Russia amassing over 100k troops around the Ukrainian border.

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Bring Back Sonic is messing with the other poster, I'm fairly sure.

Why should anyone outside of Russia give a damn what Putin prefers? Fuck Putin and what he wants.

 

[Koukalaka]

How is that reasonable? Those countries are not Russian puppet states anymore. If Russia would stop annexing and intervering into their neighboring countries, those countries probably wouldn't even think about joining Nato. The only reason why Finnland and Sweden are now strongly considering joining Nato is Russia amassing over 100k troops around the Ukrainian border.

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The fact that Finland is even at the "vaguely considering it" stage is a huge failure of statecraft for the Russian Government.

 

[TortadeJamon]

Russia: "Hey you, a free sovereign nation. Do not accept any military equipment or enter into any defensive alliances against us!"

Ukraine: "Um, who are you to tell us what to do? And why? Are you planning to invade us?"

Russia: 😏

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Where you're making your mistake is with that bolded sentence... Russia doesn't see Ukraine as a free sovereign nation, it sees it as part of historical Russia. Like Germany with Austria and historically German areas like the Sudetenland during the Nazi era.

 

[Anton Sugar]

Because the TOP propaganda topic for Russian disinformation is for discussions about neo-nazi's in Ukraine on the Internet. Having "concerns" is good enough for them and how propaganda spreads (think 7 degrees of kevin bacon but with info).

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Well, I'm never really on Twitter except to RT memes and all the sources I've been looking at have been from the last few years.

Shit, I even think it's possible for someone who is pro-US intervention to say "yeah, the neo-Nazis that are a battalion of the Ukrainian military, are a fucking problem". I'm not putting my head in the sand over it because, as I noted, "US provides aid to extremist insurgents" has been a recipe for disaster, FOR the US. It's not like I'm under the delusion that Russia is invading Ukraine to fight the Nazis.

You said nobody should aid Ukraine, why not then? Do you not agree the country is being bullied right now?

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I don't think "this country is being bullied, we should help them" is a good position to argue from, because countries being "bullied" happens all the time and we don't do shit.

Not a single person in this thread or in the Biden administration is advocating for war with Russia. Not a single person.

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This is only correct if you don't think "we need to send troops" is not advocating for war. Because posters in this thread have advocated for sending troops, or at least bemoaned letting Russia get away with whatever action they might take.

 

[Ensorcell]

I don't think "this country is being bullied, we should help them" is a good position to argue from, because countries being "bullied" happens all the time and we don't do shit.

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Who is we? NATO is made up of more than one country. It's a collective alliance that sees Russian aggression barreling towards it.

 

[myth]

I don't think "this country is being bullied, we should help them" is a good position to argue from, because countries being "bullied" happens all the time and we don't do shit.

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Would u say the same if it was Nazi germany?

 

[Anton Sugar]

Who is we? NATO is made up of more than one country. It's a collective alliance that sees Russian aggression barreling towards it.

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Apologies--I live in the United States and my references to "we" are for the USA.

I did catch now that you claimed that I thought no one should help Ukraine, which again, I never said.

I'm speaking with knowledge that the majority of US interventions (of which there are many) have been failures, mistakes, and/or exploitative. These sorts of interventions are rarely morally imperative and there are more often ulterior motives and/or unforeseen consequences. Like I said, I don't like Obama, but I do agree with his general sentiment of not getting involved.

This is nearly irrelevant in the discussion about a (repeated) looming Russian aggression against Ukraine. Why?

• In 2019 Ukrainians elected a Jewish president
• Between 2016 and 2019 Ukraine had a Jewish prime minister who had been appointed by the previous president
• In the 2019 parliamentary elections the far right party platform (Svoboda, Right Sector and a new party by the founder of the Azov battalion) secured 2.15% of the votes - pretty much all of the Western European countries have a higher turnout for far right
• Ukraine is host to the largest Jewish pilgrimage (to my knowledge) and are progressive in terms LGBTQ rights by Eastern European standards

Now looking at this do you think that a Nazi takeover of Ukraine is imminent?
And if Russia took over Ukraine, do you think that the human rights situation would improve there? Are you aware of the human right situation in Russia or the so called people's republics in Donbas? Is that something that minorities should look forward to in Ukraine?

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Isn't this kind of the equivalent of "we had a Black president, so how could we have a problem with white nationalists in the US"?

Alsooooo, again, never said or inferred that there will be a Nazi "takeover" of Ukraine.

 

[excelsiorlef]

This is only correct if you don't think "we need to send troops" is not advocating for war. Because posters in this thread have advocated for sending troops, or at least bemoaned letting Russia get away with whatever action they might take.

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One liar

Two that or is doing some amazing heavy lifting

You guys want boots on the ground... or well you don't want Russia to just have no pushback in any form

 

[BossAttack]

Where you're making your mistake is with that bolded sentence... Russia doesn't see Ukraine as a free sovereign nation, it sees it as part of historical Russia. Like Germany with Austria and historically German areas like the Sudetenland during the Nazi era.

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Of course, merely highlighting the ridiculousness of the position some posters are defending.

 

[Typhon]

Would u say the same if it was Nazi germany?

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Has Ukraine invaded any countries lately? Do they have death camps I'm not aware of?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Has Ukraine invaded any countries lately? Do they have death camps I'm not aware of?

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Myth is pointing out the stupid logic of it's none of anyone's business

 

[Deleted member 43]

Apologies--I live in the United States and my references to "we" are for the USA.

I did catch now that you claimed that I thought no one should help Ukraine, which again, I never said.

I'm speaking with knowledge that the majority of US interventions (of which there are many) have been failures, mistakes, and/or exploitative. These sorts of interventions are rarely morally imperative and there are more often ulterior motives and/or unforeseen consequences. Like I said, I don't like Obama, but I do agree with his general sentiment of not getting involved.

Isn't this kind of the equivalent of "we had a Black president, so how could we have a problem with white nationalists in the US"?

Alsooooo, again, never said or inferred that there will be a Nazi "takeover" of Ukraine.

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This is not a military intervention.

The lawful government of Ukraine has asked for help in terms of needed materials and supplies to defend their rightful sovereignty, and the US and allies have responded.

The only one who had a problem with this is Russia, because they want to invade and annex Ukraine and want an easier time doing it.

 

[Royalan]

This thread is generating a large number of reports and will be locked during review.

 

[B-Dubs]

OK, let's try this again.

 

[kmfdmpig]

Kiev's mayor is unimpressed by Germany's support, unsurprisingly.

Germany offers Ukraine helmets, Kyiv's Klitschko 'speechless'

Germany will supply 5,000 military helmets to Ukraine to help defend against a possible Russian invasion, it said on Wednesday - an offer Kyiv mayor and former world champion boxer Vitali Klitschko dismissed as "a joke" that left him "speechless".

www.reuters.com

 

[Nobleman Swerve]

Kiev's mayor is unimpressed by Germany's support, unsurprisingly.

Germany offers Ukraine helmets, Kyiv's Klitschko 'speechless'

Germany will supply 5,000 military helmets to Ukraine to help defend against a possible Russian invasion, it said on Wednesday - an offer Kyiv mayor and former world champion boxer Vitali Klitschko dismissed as "a joke" that left him "speechless".

www.reuters.com

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So long as Germany remains chained to Russian gas I wouldn't expect anything more from them.

 

[UnderNewOwnership]

Kiev's mayor is unimpressed by Germany's support, unsurprisingly.

Germany offers Ukraine helmets, Kyiv's Klitschko 'speechless'

Germany will supply 5,000 military helmets to Ukraine to help defend against a possible Russian invasion, it said on Wednesday - an offer Kyiv mayor and former world champion boxer Vitali Klitschko dismissed as "a joke" that left him "speechless".

www.reuters.com

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Only helmets? Not even bulletproof armor? Wtf...

 

[Koukalaka]

Kiev's mayor is unimpressed by Germany's support, unsurprisingly.

Germany offers Ukraine helmets, Kyiv's Klitschko 'speechless'

Germany will supply 5,000 military helmets to Ukraine to help defend against a possible Russian invasion, it said on Wednesday - an offer Kyiv mayor and former world champion boxer Vitali Klitschko dismissed as "a joke" that left him "speechless".

www.reuters.com

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Not exactly a game-changer - although I remember back in 2014 the Ukranians even lacked modern combat helmets and body armour - they bought or were sent a ton of surplus UK kevlar and uniforms (DPM and the newer pattern) and a lot of them wound up looking like squaddies.

 

[maabus1999]

So long as Germany remains chained to Russian gas I wouldn't expect anything more from them.

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Best thing Germany could do to support Ukraine is announce an initiative to greatly reduce their use of gas for heating. As mentioned earlier, 40% of the Russian governments revenue comes from EU energy purchases.

 

[kmfdmpig]

Best thing Germany could do to support Ukraine is announce an initiative to greatly reduce their use of gas for heating. As mentioned earlier, 40% of the Russian governments revenue comes from EU energy purchases.

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Agreed. Or they could preemptively say that if Russia invades they'll pursue alternatives with no plan to go back to Russian gas, which the US apparently worked with other countries to arrange for them. Throw off the Russian shackles while simultaneously providing an extra deterrent for Russian aggression.

 

[sacrament]

Not exactly a game-changer - although I remember back in 2014 the Ukranians even lacked modern combat helmets and body armour - they bought or were sent a ton of surplus UK kevlar and uniforms (DPM and the newer pattern) and a lot of them wound up looking like squaddies.

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What amounts to construction helmets probably isn't really the right thing... However, yes, body armor, proper helmets, even trenching and maintenance equipment would be appreciated I am sure. If they are unwilling for whatever reason to supply weapons then defensive and entrenchment support for the backlines would likely be welcomed. Particularly since so many folks appear to volunteer and civilian trainees. There are options here that don't cross significant lines that can be helpful.

A horrible outcome, but possibly the best, is getting Russia into a protracted engagement with Ukraine where anything like rations and medicine will be essential for Ukraine to withstand the attrition can also be planned for.

 

[UnderNewOwnership]

There are options here that don't cross significant lines that can be helpful.

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Very true. The right non-military supplies, in the right amounts, can be as useful as guns and bullets.

 

[BringBackSonics]

Progressive Caucus doesn't think the west is not trying diplomacy. Who needs Russian state media when you have some do the work for you

 

[El Bombastico]

Progressive Caucus doesn't think the west is not trying diplomacy. Who needs Russian state media when you have some do the work for you

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God, so many Useful Idiots...

 

[excelsiorlef]

Progressive Caucus doesn't think the west is not trying diplomacy. Who needs Russian state media when you have some do the work for you

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We need non violent diplomacy... no sanctions though that's non violent warfare

 

[maabus1999]

Progressive Caucus doesn't think the west is not trying diplomacy. Who needs Russian state media when you have some do the work for you

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Diplomacy is great but the more troops, sanctions, lethal aid comment is just off the mark. For one sanctions haven't been implemented, two, allies are nervous to what is going to be probably over 150,000 mobilized troops near their borders, and three, lethal aid only started months in mass after it was obvious Russia was going to continue building up forces. Diplomacy has gone on for months. Also seems to overlook Russia has done incursions since 2014 to support the "resistance fighters". There has been no meaningful attempts at diplomacy from Russia.

 

[Beer Monkey]

Productive diplomacy requires two sides acting in good faith. Progressive Caucus siding with the bad faith actor on this.

 

[Mivey]

Wait, they even take issue with the threat of sanctions if Russia invades? Now that's some impressive clownshoes. 🤡

 

[KillLaCam]

I got some messages last night, coincidentally, from old friends in the USA. They were chiding and deriding the German response to all this (of which there surely are areas to criticise), but the weirdest thing I was hearing from them is how they were egging on the idea of getting into armed conflict here. Like as if they wanted it.

The fact that I got these messages out of the blue after not hearing from these people in a while tells me that the american government and media machine are suddenly pushing very hard for armed conflict in a way that I find scary and dumb.

Russia is obviously the aggressor here, yet I am disturbed by the fanatical adherence to war being the answer that I heard from these friends of mine in the USA.

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Yeah. I have friends who basically never ever talk about international issues basically prodding on about international conflict in Ukraine like they're excited for something to happen. It's odd to see.

 

[excelsiorlef]

Wait, they even take issue with the threat of sanctions if Russia invades? Now that's some impressive clownshoes. 🤡

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Everyone just needs to make some compromises....the US will agree to do nothing , Ukraine will try a new colour scheme and flag and Putin will agree to never retire and remain as leader


There everyone wins right?

 

[excelsiorlef]

Yeah. I have friends who basically never ever talk about international issues basically prodding on about international conflict in Ukraine like they're excited for something to happen. It's odd to see.

Click to shrink...

You have weird friends