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twister926

Member
Apr 28, 2022
406
I've always been a fan of The Garden Of Earthly Delights.

Hopefully someone would take inspiration from Francisco Goya and Zdzislaw Beksinski
The Medium has some set-pieces inspired by Beksinski's work.

I love Bosch' paintings too - I have The Garden Of Earthly Delights print hanging in my living room :D. What I saw in this thread got me more interested in Metaphor, I like weird art style and SMT/Persona games.
 

duckroll

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,254
Singapore
Fair enough. But even if they are based on something, the art wouldn't be a direct representation of that. I still think it's a different thing to base all your enemies off the designs of one artist and to use famous designs of the exact entity you are depicting.
I just don't think the very specific references to well known renaissance art for the game in general is just trying to be cool or weird. Given the team behind is, it's very possible that it's meant to have a tangible narrative connection between the fantasy world they are in, and the world we are in.
 

joyboy

Member
Jan 1, 2023
97
My thinking as well.
Kinda but not really, they don't seem to suggest they came up with every monster design + it's 500 years old and his works are clearly the theme for the game, it isn't like they just took 1 or 2. I wish they would just outright say "yeah we made monsters based on his art" but I don't think they're just jacking his shit without respect. It seems somewhat tasetful given the quality of art in the game, like a dedication almost.
 

Bansai

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,346
Bosch has been a goldmine for anime/manga so this is not surprising and very nice to see.

I have heard Bosch is also a pretty good detective.

niiice, I wanted to say something about that.



Really loved when the TV show referenced the painter by having a certain antagonist leave vague hints towards the painter Bosch at scenes of crime in an attempt to point at and frame Bosch (the detective).
 

Ashes of Dreams

Fallen Guardian of Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,640
I just don't think the very specific references to well known renaissance art for the game in general is just trying to be cool or weird. Given the team behind is, it's very possible that it's meant to have a tangible narrative connection between the fantasy world they are in, and the world we are in.
I feel like I made it pretty clear I wasn't saying anything negative about Metaphor. Just that "Kaneko did the same thing" doesn't really work imo because there's a difference between using famous/popular depictions of a specific creature you are designing and basing all your enemies on the artwork of one artist. Like the Fish With Legs isn't a known creature in any mythology or demonology as far as I know, so it's not the same thing.
 

Makoto Yuki

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,515
The Medium has some set-pieces inspired by Beksinski's work.

I love Bosch' paintings too - I have The Garden Of Earthly Delights print hanging in my living room :D. What I saw in this thread got me more interested in Metaphor, I like weird art style and SMT/Persona games.

Yo thanks for the heads up! I might have to check out The Medium then!

I will say, even though this is probably just a Persona game with new bells and whistles, the art style is definitely striking, and at least this isn't set in high school.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,638
colin-farrell-in-bruges.gif
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,524
I feel like I made it pretty clear I wasn't saying anything negative about Metaphor. Just that "Kaneko did the same thing" doesn't really work imo because there's a difference between using famous/popular depictions of a specific creature you are designing and basing all your enemies on the artwork of one artist. Like the Fish With Legs isn't a known creature in any mythology or demonology as far as I know, so it's not the same thing.
People gave examples of Kaneko clearly basing it entirely on specific art pieces. In the first place a lot of demons had varying and fluid descriptions and the "common" depictions only exist because of very specific pieces. Like Kaneko's similarities aren't just describing the same creatures, it's feature for feature and pose for pose the same with stuff like that demon with the fiery spoon posted earlier
 

Ashes of Dreams

Fallen Guardian of Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,640
People gave examples of Kaneko clearly basing it entirely on specific art pieces. In the first place a lot of demons had varying and fluid descriptions and the "common" depictions only exist because of very specific pieces. Like Kaneko's similarities aren't just describing the same creatures, it's feature for feature and pose for pose the same with stuff like that demon with the fiery spoon posted earlier
You're not understanding what I'm saying at all but I don't know how to word it any differently than the several times I have already. I did not say that Kaneko was just describing the same creature. I know he based a lot of his art on famous artwork of those creatures. What I'm saying is I don't think that's the same thing as what Metaphor is doing. There's a difference between "I based this design of this demon on this famous artwork of that demon" and "all of our enemies are designs from the artwork of this one artist". As I used in my previous example, Fish With Human Legs isn't an existing demon, as far as I'm aware it's a creation BY that artist, as with all the others Metaphor is using. And while I think both are fine, I do think that's a noticeable enough difference.
 

J-Tier

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
3,741
Southern California
You're not understanding what I'm saying at all but I don't know how to word it any differently than the several times I have already. I did not say that Kaneko was just describing the same creature. I know he based a lot of his art on famous artwork of those creatures. What I'm saying is I don't think that's the same thing as what Metaphor is doing. There's a difference between "I based this design of this demon on this famous artwork of that demon" and "all of our enemies are designs from the artwork of this one artist". As I used in my previous example, Fish With Human Legs isn't an existing demon, as far as I'm aware it's a creation BY that artist, as with all the others Metaphor is using. And while I think both are fine, I do think that's a noticeable enough difference.
I do love Kaneko's work—but it's often derivative of stuff that's even more recent, the demon examples from the Dictionnaire Infernal are just a small sample. So are you critiquing Metaphor for being derivative of one style? If so, we're assuming that the entirety of Metaphor is based on the work of Bosch. And even if it is—it's still pretty cool—as it's based off of his artwork which has existed since the early 1500s. Any work from hundreds of years ago is literally "existing" as a point of historical reference in the context of this discussion.
 

Ashes of Dreams

Fallen Guardian of Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,640
I do love Kaneko's work—but it's often derivative of stuff that's even more recent, the demon examples from the Dictionnaire Infernal are just a small sample. So are you critiquing Metaphor for being derivative of one style? If so, we're assuming that the entirety of Metaphor is based on the work of Bosch. And even if it is—it's still pretty cool—as it's based off of his artwork which has existed since the early 1500s. Any work from hundreds of years ago is literally "existing" as a point of historical reference in the context of this discussion.
I'm not critiquing Metaphor at all come on I've said this in every post :l

I'm just disagreeing it's the same thing, for the reasons I've stated.
 

ResetGreyWolf

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,436
How are you all only finding out about Bosch now? He's an incredibly famous and talented artist. We go through his art as part of junior high school in Sweden
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
It was in response to people claiming it was the same thing. I don't think it is.

It's different because what, Kaneko used demons with preexisting names?

I dunno, it's still directly lifting historical art. Maybe the whole thing wouldn't be such a funny nitpick to me if SMT related series didn't already have a long history of fans complaining about something in its art and then get really defensive when it's pointed out Kaneko did the same thing. At least in this case you're not trying to trash on a newer artist, but it's still just kind of tiring to see.
 

Ashes of Dreams

Fallen Guardian of Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,640
It's different because what, Kaneko used demons with preexisting names?

I dunno, it's still directly lifting historical art. Maybe the whole thing wouldn't be such a funny nitpick to me if SMT related series didn't already have a long history of fans complaining about something in its art and then get really defensive when it's pointed out Kaneko did the same thing. At least in this case you're not trying to trash on a newer artist, but it's still just kind of tiring to see.

Again, I don't know how to word this any better than I already have several times. I think there is a difference between a game that uses figures from all across mythology, religion, folklore, and pop culture using previous famous depictions of those figures as a basis for their design... and a game using the artwork of a single artist that was not depicting pre-existing figures for it's creatures. It's not the same thing. I think people were slightly inaccurate to say it was the same thing. There's no deeper analysis here on my part, I'm not criticizing Metaphor, and I'm not defending Kaneko's honor. I just think there is a clear distinction there and thus understand why one might like one approach but not the other.

If you, or anyone else, disagrees and think it is the exact same thing, then that is fine. But all the responses I've gotten have either been saying I said something I didn't or asking me to say it again. I don't think what I said is that radical of a thing. But you clearly have some kind of pre-existing hangup about a previous conversation you had with people. Not interested in that at all. I love basically all of the major Atlus artists. I have Masayuki Doi's autograph on a SMT IV poster. I have bought several of Shigenori Soejima's artbooks. Whatever beef you have with Kaneko Only Fans is irrelevant to me. I just don't think what Metaphor is doing with it's art is the same thing as what Kaneko did with his art.
 

Rutger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,449
Again, I don't know how to word this any better than I already have several times. I think there is a difference between a game that uses figures from all across mythology, religion, folklore, and pop culture using previous famous depictions of those figures as a basis for their design... and a game using the artwork of a single artist that was not depicting pre-existing figures for it's creatures. It's not the same thing. I think people were slightly inaccurate to say it was the same thing. There's no deeper analysis here on my part, I'm not criticizing Metaphor, and I'm not defending Kaneko's honor. I just think there is a clear distinction there and thus understand why one might like one approach but not the other.

If you, or anyone else, disagrees and think it is the exact same thing, then that is fine. But all the responses I've gotten have either been saying I said something I didn't or asking me to say it again. I don't think what I said is that radical of a thing. But you clearly have some kind of pre-existing hangup about a previous conversation you had with people. Not interested in that at all. I love basically all of the major Atlus artists. I have Masayuki Doi's autograph on a SMT IV poster. I have bought several of Shigenori Soejima's artbooks. Whatever beef you have with Kaneko Only Fans is irrelevant to me. I just don't think what Metaphor is doing with it's art is the same thing as what Kaneko did with his art.

Like I said, i didn't think you were attacking other artists like some Kaneko fans love to do, so it wasn't entirely directed at you.

But still, I don't really see a difference. The line of inspiration to a Renaissance artist's depictions of hell in this game seems as clear to me as SMT directly lifting various demon designs, it's both fitting and inspired. I wasn't paying too close attention to the thread after my earlier response, but that's what I was thinking then is all.
 

DirtyLarry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,114
Very influenced is sure one way to put it.
Also wild to me so many people apparently have never heard of Bosch...
He is like the OG of fantasy art and The Garden Of Earthly Delights is legit one of the most famous triptych paintings ever. One of my personal all time favorite paintings.
Will actually keep on eye out for this game when it is released.
 

Yonafunu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,292
Most interesting thing about this thread is how many people don't know Bosch. It's not that many, but it's still more than I'd expect.