Win32 is proprietary.
The Microsoft Store does have Win32 apps within it. Just made with the Desktop Converter Tool. It doesn't use all of the APIs of Win32 though.
-
Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
-
We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.
Microsoft ditches Windows 10 S in favor of a new ‘S Mode’
- Thread starter Atheerios
- Start date
Win32 is proprietary.
The Microsoft Store does have Win32 apps within it. Just made with the Desktop Converter Tool. It doesn't use all of the APIs of Win32 though.
The game industry confuses me. I understand mostly targeting Windows due to market share, but why use their proprietary technologies? Almost every other software discipline has abandoned proprietary "standards"
It happened with Adobe Flash, it happened with Internet Explorer. It will happen again with DirectX. It's embarrassing.
There are several projects floating all around to translate D3D/Metal <-> Vulkan. And you know what? Based on id, Vulkan seems pretty sweet to me. They've always had the right attitude towards technology choices. Plenty of others going the Vulkan route too.
If it's because you must use DirectX for UWP, then call Microsoft's bluff. They will write a translation layer for it to get you on the store, or open it up. And most game devs hate UWP anyway so why?
You don't even have to abandon the large install base. Just stop making technology choices that cram everyone into a senseless trap.
It happened with Adobe Flash, it happened with Internet Explorer. It will happen again with DirectX. It's embarrassing.
There are several projects floating all around to translate D3D/Metal <-> Vulkan. And you know what? Based on id, Vulkan seems pretty sweet to me. They've always had the right attitude towards technology choices. Plenty of others going the Vulkan route too.
If it's because you must use DirectX for UWP, then call Microsoft's bluff. They will write a translation layer for it to get you on the store, or open it up. And most game devs hate UWP anyway so why?
You don't even have to abandon the large install base. Just stop making technology choices that cram everyone into a senseless trap.
I don't spend that kind of money for just that reason. I'm like unapersson here vvv.
Except I'd say at this point I'm playing mostly on pc.
Indeed. I think the original title was something like "S mode to be the default", or "Microsoft are killing Win32", or something equally creative, but it got changed... but of course by then the die was cast and new people would pile in based on the first page of replies saying rather than the reality of what's being done.
Oh it's coming. As mobile and desktop os' encroach on each other's turf, it's going to look less smart to volunteer for ms lock-in, and more smart to build cross platform games on proper open standards.
Free would be locking yourself to the store. Ms offers that for free because it will make up on their cut with store purchases. If you want to use apps outside the store they charge you, but that fee is less than it used to be.
Smode does allow win32 through the store.
I would offer the defence that D3D was compelling for years, but OpenGL has been more than serviceable for years now as well... I really feel like there is no excuse :/
I generally agree and hope you are right.
Tooling tooling tooling, if there is one thing Microsoft does well its developers tools.
Because an open standard isn't automatically better than a closed one just because it's open.
That's why directx took off in the first place, and why open standards never caught up with it. Because it was simply much better than the rest.
The only reason why there's a chance of vulkan or any other open standard overtaking directx is because due the mobile explosion having an open cross platform standard does become a very good advantage on its own.
That's just running UWP as a wrapper essentially, and at that point we're just arguing semantics. S Mode would be considerably more restrictive than just preventing side-loaded apps.
Not in practical terms, win32 centennial apps are indeed wrapped, but they have full access to win32 apis even the ones that aren't remapped in uwp.
The fact that they are wrapped in a container do limit some functionality (centennial apps can't create services for example), so stuff like anti viruses wouldn't be suitable but their main advantage is 0 or almost 0 code changes. Depending on your setup the only thing you ever need to do is mark a checkbox in the installer project so anytime it creates a installer for you new build it also creates a new wrapped package that you can submit to the store as is (though by doing that you gain access to the uwp apis and can use them as well)
It is more restrictive as it wouldn't allow to install new browsers, anti viruses etc. But only due the fact that they are not allowed in the store. For example the full Office suite is now available as converted win32 apps in the store, and some fairly capable applications made the jump intact as well (Kodi, Affinity Design, which is like photoshop etc)
You still have to by a windows license , or buy from an OEM who has paid for the license.
Do you have a list of disallowed things in the wrapper (not Store policies, the part regarding i.e. services) handy? This sounds very vague, last time I heard of this it was supposed to be rather restrictive for everything but UI.
Are you sure? I think Ms distributed the S version for free if you wanted.
Though it's possible that the upgrade option is more expensive if you haven't acquired from a OEM, but in that case, worst case scenario you are paying as much as you were before (the OEM version license from OP + the upgrade fee is the same as the previous OEM license ($150) from a google search)
I'll try to find some documentation on that, but at least the information they presented on Build was:
- There are no code changes required to convert desktop apps (it used to take a few extra steps, but what they presented was precisely how you can now just change the installer to make the changes)
- The full win32 api is available to converted apps + uwp apis, and how you could easily migrate your codebase to uwp and keep the win32 funcionality either while you convert or even as a desktop only feature while there isn't a uwp equivalent api.
- There are some stuff that are either forbidden or that the system tricks the app into think it broke free of the container but it didn't.
Mind you the wrapper for win32 apps might be the same as uwp, but in the very least they allow more apis to break through the container than they do with uwp. (In fact some of the uwp changes from last year was allowing uwp to have some of those breaking points)
You could get it free for a while, but not any more.
As far as pricing goes, you're right, nothing has become more expensive for anyone. Home And Home S are cost the same to OEMs and are free to upgrade. Upgrading from Pro S to Pro would just get you back to the normal price.
Some can argue that the $50 Pro upgrade scheme is... manipulative. They are using a discount to bait OEMs to ship with S turned on. Then they are hoping that Pro users will try it out, and that the $50 savings will get them to stay.
They basically looked at the Home conversation rate and came up with a way to try push the Prosumer market in the same direction.
Personally, I don't think it's a big deal. Perhaps some Pro Users actually get what they need out of the option and save some cash. If they don't like it, they are right back where they were, no harm no foul.
It should, but it still doesn't seem to have lol.
"Sony are going to revoke all digital game licenses every generation"
"Valve are going to enforce always-on DRM"
Well they're not, but they could, and that seems to be the basis of people saying that MS will default to S and will completely remove any and all abilities to run Win32 programs. It's just beyond crazy how far some people will go to spread conspiracy theories about MS and Windows. It's nuts just how deep that hatred seems to be, where they'll lie through their teeth to try and make other people scared. It's the definition of FUD.
Are you still adamant that S mode will be on by default, even though the people that wrote the article have explicitly said that it's not true?
As I mentioned earlier, I was using "default" in a semantically different way.
Am I saying The only way to aquired Windows will be with S enabled? No.
I'm saying that OEMs will have the option of shipping Windows with S enabled "by default" and MS is insentivinzing them to do so by offering a discount.
The same guy who wrote that tweet wrote this:
He's explicitly statingthat MS is pushing for the OS to be shipped with S enabled. His tweet is disputing the notion that it will be mandatory for every device/license sold, which I never suggested.
I'm not sure why your trying to paint me as some anti-MS conspiracy theorist, because I'm largely in favor of everything here.
Last edited:
Their developer tooling is generally great, yes. I agree with gravitating towards Microsoft technologies in the past as DX smoked anything else years ago. It's a little different now though and looks much less painful to close the gap. Microsoft does offer some great cross platform tools too these days, which is great.
It just seems like it's finally time to end the aging exclusive relationship with Microsoft's proprietary technology. There's never been a better time and it's still not happening.
Really?
Seems pretty clear cut to me.
Anyway, of course MS want to push S mode. It gets people using their store, and it guarantees that all computers are up to date with the latest version of windows and security patches, which would be fantastic. What they aren't, and likely never will do, is forcing S by default.
Have you read any of the linked articles in the OP or even the last few pages of comments? For consumers this does nothing other than make it potentially cheaper to get windows. Oh noes, the horror.
I don't understand what it is with you.
When I said windows will ship with S by default, Im referring to the fact that there will be SKUs that have S already turned on . This WILL happen.
These tweets are refuting is the idea that all licenses will have S turned on initially, Which is not a claim I've ever made.
I mean look at the damn tweet.
He's clarifying that not all versions will have it default. Some inevitably will because MS is making it cheaper to ship it that way. I feel like you are being willfully obtuse at this point, considering we appear to be on the same side of the debate.
Again, I never said they were forcing anyone. I never said this was a bad thing. I said windows 10 will be shipping with SKUs that have it already turned on.
Last edited:
If Mobile OSes and Desktop OSes are encroaching turfs, then all you're doing is swapping a lock in with another one. It's not going to help Linux Gaming at all. TBH Linux gaming is all but a fantasy.
I'm sorry but you are twisting what you said.
I then said that where S would have been shipped, 10 + S mode enabled will now be shipped, and that is really the extent of the changes. You said that is not true, and that S mode will be enabled by default.
I'm not trying to paint you as a conspiracy theorist or anything, but you were 100% wrong and misleading people here. You can't go around saying "MS will enable S mode by default and anyone that doesn't want it will have to pay an extra $50", and then turn around and say that by "default" you mean "if you buy the version that has S mode enabled". It's not "by default" if the default setting isn't enabled. You can't deny that is what you said on multiple occasions.
Anyway, moving on cause this is going in circles.
I wish that MS would give consumers a way to kind of force a win32 program that they've downloaded to run fully sandboxed UWP style. I'd love to be able to do that for like the 2 win32 programs that my parents use, and get them on S so they can't get viruses, which they very often do unfortunately.
Check out Docker. fiddly to set up if you're not a tecchie but will give you that isolation for win32.
Yeh I'm looking in to docker at work so might have a closer look at dockerizing individual programs. Thanks for the idea!
I'm not twisting anything. Your misinterpreting what I said, and perhaps I could have been more clear. But I know what I meant.
At the end of the day, there will be SKUs that ship with S on "by default". and now that S is a simply a Mode that saves OEMs, not a seperate version of windows, they actually have an incentive to ship it PCs this way. THIS is the change. The setting IS enabled. There's nothing misleading about it.
Saying it's on by default is 100% misleading because it's only on when the PC would have shipped with S. This is a replacement for S. It's not on by default. That's not how "default" works.
You don't say that something is the default when it's an option. That's literally the opposite of default lol. You wouldn't say that, for example, self driving is on by default in Tesla's just because they sell a model with it, because it's an option.
Last edited:
If you want to deal with facts, you have to admit that's speculation (I mean, if that implies it won't be more commonplace than S and target the same market)
I'm not saying it will replace 10, but I'm convinced they phased S out because it wasn't used enough by OEM. Probably because they feared that customers would see S as a cheap alternative to a full Windows.
With S mode, they can say "it's a full Windows 10 with just a secure mode active by default for your protection, that you can remove in a heartbeat if you prefer". Far easier to sell...
I really believe that they ditched S for S mode so that it's becoming FAR more common on computers.
I think the simpler and more realistic scenario is that they just wanted to have 1 code base/SKU.
It being a replacement for S isn't speculation lol.
Of course they want people to use S...they want Store revenue, but giving owners the ability to turn that off should be free in my opinion, at least for Home owners it is. And a way out should be possible which it is. Every company wants you in a walled garden and their platform. MS with Windows is no different. I do believe that majority of Home Users would benefit from S mode than not. PC gamers is a small amount and they can figure they way out or never even get that Windows version with it enabled.
Like Zedox, I think the target is to boost their store.
I don't buy the single base, because remove the upgrade button and change the label, and you have S and 10 for basically free from Microsoft side. But perception is that S is a cheap alternative for customers.
Well, you have a discount when you buy the computer, I think it's ok toy pay back the discount when you unlock.
I think S mode > normal should be free, S > pro and normal > pro may cost something, and you should be able to take any road.
No, but some might say that Teslas have self-driving off by default. Often, the cheaper, less advanced option is considered "default" - which describes S. And it's a more apt now description since it's a mode and not a seperate version of Windows - as Home S Home Pro / Pro S and Pro users pay for the exact same license.
We're arguing semantics here!
When have I ever used 100%? I Literally used the word optional in my post. You're weirding me out bro. You're right, let's Be done with this.
That's exactly how it is. lololol.
I know right? Jeez.
I'm glad this ended up being, frankly, benign news as far as gaming is concerned. This is a reasonable strategy for not supporting a whole separate sku for a subset of bulk licensing for PC manufacturers, and a way to make the sticker price for low-end devices appear lower.
Anyone who's actually been installing Windows 10 on hardware recently has probably appreciated there being a single installer (you can grab it from the official site) that you can plug any valid key into and it just boots into the appropriate mode (Home/Pro/Etc), or allows you to buy one directly after intalling if you want. Most PCs I've run into seem to have a legacy license for either Home or Pro that the installer sees right away, as well. Including S so it's legitimately an all-in-one that fits on a small thumb-drive is really useful, from an office setup perspective.
Anyone who's actually been installing Windows 10 on hardware recently has probably appreciated there being a single installer (you can grab it from the official site) that you can plug any valid key into and it just boots into the appropriate mode (Home/Pro/Etc), or allows you to buy one directly after intalling if you want. Most PCs I've run into seem to have a legacy license for either Home or Pro that the installer sees right away, as well. Including S so it's legitimately an all-in-one that fits on a small thumb-drive is really useful, from an office setup perspective.
When you buy computer with S mode, you don't need to choose home or pro, you're offered the choice when you switch S off? If so, that's nice...
Last edited:
You are not even following the conversation lol. Maybe sit back and read a bit?
Not exactly. When you buy a computer with Home or Pro, in either case S mode might be enabled.
Turning off S mode in Home is free
Turning off S mode in Pro is $50.
Yes, that was my understanding. So that NOT exactly how it is (so no lololol ;) )
I wish Pro was akin to a mode, too, that you can easily unlock (at a cost). Possibly by downloading the missing tools, but not a OS change. And certainly not, when you buy a computer, being stuck with the OEM choice.
Should you be offered the choice, that's a nice solution.
great news. sounds like they listened to the feedback
I though you could do that now on Windows 10?
Check Settings > Update & Security > Activation
