Molly Ringwald revisits the films of her youth in the age of #MeToo
- Thread starter BrokenFiction
- Start date
Is that homophobic or basically just saying Putin owns him in a dominate way? I mean, I don't use the phrases, but I just never saw them that way.
Always thought those who said such things were likening Trump to a whore (in hindsight still problematic in a way), but i totally see the homophobic connotations.
Why would implying homosexuality be considered an insult unless there is something wrong with it? It is homophobic, no question. Same as calling Trump a faggot.
A lot of things have changed tremendously since the 70s and 80s.
Fuck even from the 90s.
If you are 25+ you are young and yet were old enough to see amazing progress in the LGBT movement. Not that it is done, but the speed in which things were accomplished was amazing.
I don't judge people from the era the same way I judge someone from today because I am 40 and I have evolved and adapted a lot of views myself in that time.
Fuck even from the 90s.
If you are 25+ you are young and yet were old enough to see amazing progress in the LGBT movement. Not that it is done, but the speed in which things were accomplished was amazing.
I don't judge people from the era the same way I judge someone from today because I am 40 and I have evolved and adapted a lot of views myself in that time.
I agree with you.
I think those posters just suck at the English language more so than they are homophobic (or at least I would like to hope so).
No it isn't. The last sentence. I see where you're coming from and I'm not gonna push hard on this, but really that last sentence, no.
OK so in that case it is an attack on his masculinity. Implying gay men can't be masculine.
How is calling a man a cock sucker not the same as calling them a faggot or a queer? It is implying a weakness or negative trait, based on their sexual interaction with other men.
You know, stuff like this makes me wonder what movies/tv today we're going to look back on in 30+ years and just cringe at.
But then, just like Molly says, you just don't even think about these things as you're living through them. So maybe it's impossible to be cognizant of these issues while you're in the process?
Ultimately these films are a snap shot of their time, it's important to look back at certain cultural touchstones and re-examine problematic elements. Just remember though that at the time these movies were considered progressive.
Does this mean as we progress as a society that movies that we consider progressive are going to someday be looked upon as dated and problematic? It's quite possible that there's no avoiding that and maybe it's actually a good thing that we've come along enough to look back and see the problems of the past.
But then, just like Molly says, you just don't even think about these things as you're living through them. So maybe it's impossible to be cognizant of these issues while you're in the process?
Ultimately these films are a snap shot of their time, it's important to look back at certain cultural touchstones and re-examine problematic elements. Just remember though that at the time these movies were considered progressive.
Does this mean as we progress as a society that movies that we consider progressive are going to someday be looked upon as dated and problematic? It's quite possible that there's no avoiding that and maybe it's actually a good thing that we've come along enough to look back and see the problems of the past.
R-rating wasn't really enforced much for high school age kids. Comedies like Porky's, Zapped, Revenge of the Nerds and slasher horror films were all aimed squarely at high school students despite being rated R. An R rating wasn't seen as a barrier to box office success then and many of the top grossing films of the year would be rated R. Robocop had an entire toy line and that's a movie that needed edits to avoid an X rating (can't remember if NC-17 existed in '87).
I think it started turning sometime in the '90s but it was The Matrix followed by Columbine that immediately made legislators (and therefore) Hollywood take a hard look at how R-rated movies were being marketed to non-adults and how lax theaters were at letting them in. Hollywood and theater owners had to curb that behavior before the government intervened.
Yes for the bolded, no idea where you're getting the rest, specially cause we live in an era where masculine gay imagery is more prominent than ever.
In general i feel people don't intent the homophobic connotations but basically arent expressing with words that lack the connotation because, when it comes to trump, people want to cram the most profanity possible in their insults giving that edgy and homophobic feeling.
I do say people should be saying "Putin owns Trump" in a way that doesn't sound Homophobic.
I don't think it's as strong as those slurs but I think your second sentence is right.
Thanks for posting this, OP. Great, great read. As someone who considers Ferris Bueller's Day Off his favorite movie, this was a fascinating and necessary reflection on Hughes' work and 80's pop culture in general.
I don't think they are calling him a cock sucker in a positive way. It is like a elementary school kid calling another kid a faggot. It is to imply weakness. It is an insult rooted in decades of abuse towards gay people. It is disgusting and should be dealt with. Using homosexuality as an insult is bigoted.
This is derailing so I think it should end here.
I sent this video to the woman in the video via Facebook sometime back. She had said others have also pointed it out before and found it humorous.
I wish I still had the message.
Back on topic...
The thing about Hughes is that given the time in which these movies were made the behavior of some of the characters is exactly as you would have expected then to be (example: Bender under the table). I'm not sure that is being exploitative as much as it is a reflection of reality.
The connotation is that he's in Putin's pocket and his lapdog. The slurs you're piling on are primarily coming from you. These aren't phrases I use either way, and I get how it can be viewed as homophobic, hence why I don't use it, but they're not synonyms.
Even past that. I just rewatched American Pie 1 & 2 on Netflix before they left last week and they came out in 1999 and 2001 and ho boy, I forgot some of the awful shit in there. American Pie 1 is especially bad with the camera and internet streaming stuff.
In the example of Putin/Trump, it's more like saying Trump is submissive to Putin. The insult being that HE would find that intolerable, not that it is inherently insulting to be sexually submissive. It's the same reasoning behind calling him out as a draft dodger. You might think the draft was horrific and not blame your art professor for taking a long ski trip to British Columbia, but aggressive wannabe He-men who got out of fighting because they had a sore foot are a different story.
As someone who has sucked a dick or two on my way through life, I think there's a difference between that kind of insult and, say, the careless use of cocksucker. The target is the persons hypocrisy; they aren't living up to their own shitty ideas of manhood. It's not the suggestion that the act is bad or shameful, or that a person who would do that is shameful.
One problem I have with some of the language policing going on with the left is they sometimes treat people like they're all idiots. Like, even if they themselves can distinguish the subtleties of use, the concern is that others won't be able to and it will enflame a problematic correlation. But I think people can see the difference between saying Trump sucks Putin's dick versus Trump is a faggot.
Last edited:
Me just now "American Pie isn't that ba ... oh ..., that was messed up. Damn, they even sent her home after that. "
Great article. I love how she asks questions about how you reconcile works of art that you both love but oppose (as she puts it). It's a tougher but more thought provoking task to put thought into your perspective than the standard "it's problematic, denounce it". Especially when, as she mentions, even though John's movies are full of things that can't be excused, they also provided people who felt marginalized something to identify with at that time.
American Pie's entire plot begins around the idea of a dude doing what Aziz Ansari got called out for, only not succeeding and being irritated by that fact.
I hate having to say "well that was how it was back then" but yeah that's how it was back then.
Not excusing it, but yeah, I think the take away is we learn from that and we don't emulate it. But I don't think as a whole it invalidates the movies entirely.
Then again I'm biased and the Breakfast Club is one of my most beloved movies of all time. I acknowledge its faults, but I'm not looking for perfection.
Fun fact: Fast Times was based on a non-fiction book.
Written by Cameron Crowe, who went undercover as a high-school student.
It is using homosexuality as an insult. Full stop. By your logic, someone telling Trump to put on a dress and high heels wouldn't be transphobic, but rather an attack on Trumps own transphobia. Either way it is a disgusting way to insult someone.
It isn't policing anyone's language, anymore than the moderation already does that when people use homophobic language. Using cock sucker as an insult is absolutely homophobic and rooted in bigotry.
By criticizing their actual actions? Not by implying they are gay.
It absolutely is. Not sure why some people are arguing otherwise.
Yeah, that's not the implication or the point of the statement. That's your takeaway, which is logical, but you going "ITS THE SAME AS CALLING HIM A F*GGOT" is where we're going, "woah woah, no one said that." It's not dog whistle homophobia. Still not great thing to say, it definitely has the connotation, but you're arguing an intent that's not really there.
Nah, calling a man a cock sucker is no different than calling them a faggot. It is used to insult and immasculate. How is it not homophobic? How can you consider it OK? Tell that to a gay kid who was called cock sucker and bullied his whole life.
You keep equating things without acknowledging the leap you're taking. Also, I never said it was okay, I actually said the opposite.
The leap from cock sucker to faggot? It isn't a leap. It is barely a step.
Yeah, it's kinda complicated going back to some of these films, especially when you were watching the shit out of them growing up.
Great read.
Great read.
Say what... please don't ruin Christmas Vacation for me with this :(
The things that were considered "normal" back then. At summer camp in the '80s, when I was 10 or 11, my cabin did a panty raid on the girls cabin of our age, orchestrated by our camp counselor. (I refused to join in on the raid itself, though I did sneak out into the night with them.)
No disciplinary action at all. It was just a twisted rite of passage for boys.
There will be countless movies made these days that we'll look back on 30 years from now with the same discomfort we do with 80s movies now.
The context of the Trump/Putin jokes though have no bearing on their sexuality. The joke isn't about how they're two men, it's about how one is performing a submissive act to the benefit of the other which obviously goes down in hetero relationships too. You keep trying to shoehorn in the fact that it's two guys makes it homophobic but that's not the point of those jokes. It's like someone making a murder joke about OJ and then you call them racist for making a joke about a black guy even though the fact he's black has nothing to do with it.
The context of the Trump/Putin jokes though have no bearing on their sexuality. The joke isn't about how they're two men, it's about how one is performing a submissive act to the benefit of the other which obviously goes down in hetero relationships too. You keep trying to shoehorn in the fact that it's two guys makes it homophobic but that's not the point of those jokes. It's like someone making a murder joke about OJ and then you call them racist for making a joke about a black guy even though the fact he's black has nothing to do with it.
I watched Breakfast Club a year or two ago with my tween son, and I was surprised at some of the stuff in it. And it's probably the least-offensive of the Hughes movies. It's still dear to me, but not without me acknowledging that it has some big problems. The homophobic slurs and the treatment of the girls primarily.
Oh man that'd be a weird one to watch with my dad. I remember watching Wedding Crashers with my mom and wanting sprint out of the room a few times.
It is nothing like that.
Well he is using homophobic language. I don't assume someone is a homophobe just because they use homophobic language, but it isn't a good look. Then again he is a parody of conservatives, so maybe he is portraying his character as a homophobe.
Great article. I haven't been able to bring myself to watch a lot of the old movies I loved as a kid.
No it's not, and I say that as a bi man.
No it's not, and I say that as a bi man.
Steven Colbert possibly has a blind spot in his how his actions propagate the use of a word that perpetuates an implied prejudice against a historically vulnerable and marginalized group, yes. But there's a context and scale of the usage.
I don't know if you necessarily refuting the statement you were replying to?
Very good read. These movies can be both celebrated while also being examined with honesty. Something can have had a positive impact on your childhood while also having very poorly aged aspects. Critical looks into our nostalgia are very important, I think, since nostalgia is quick to blind folks to this sorta stuff.
Pop Culture Detective on Youtube has some good examinations of a lot of 80s movies and tropes in a similiar vein.
Pop Culture Detective on Youtube has some good examinations of a lot of 80s movies and tropes in a similiar vein.
Seems like you've got a history of seeing bigotry where there is none.
https://www.resetera.com/threads/i-think-i-found-a-hate-symbol-in-my-video-game.25214/
Gee, a harmless joke about what I honestly saw as a hidden pepe. Great comparison. I love that you dug through my post history and that is what you came up with.