…but did he actually choose? We could go round and round forever lol.
Moments in media where a characters actions are framed as wrong but actually right
- Thread starter DragonSJG
- Start date
That ending was such bullshit! Someone high up must have wanted some sort of ending change because that couldn't have been how the movie was originally supposed to end.
Nah, even before anyone got more context Nagito was extremely in the wrong:
The information painting his class as Despair was given away by Monokuma, his enemy. Had Nagito thought about it rationally he'd realise that he has no way to verify the info and that Monokuma is absolutely not to be trusted. Instead, due to his black-and-white outlook of "Hope and Talent = Good, Everything Else = Worthless" he opted to disregard everything he experienced on the island and set in motion his plans, not realising he'd been played like a fiddle by Monokuma exactly like every previous murderer (except arguably Gundham, who only killed because circumstances demanded that someone had to). Take Hajime. Nagito was in love with the guy at this point, but one glance at a file claiming he's talentless (which turned out to be, ya guessed it, not true!) and he throws a huge tantrum.
Nagito was too blinkered to ever do the right thing and only his talent bailed him out. I imagine it's also the only reason Izuru didn't smother him with a pillow immediately after they got out of VR.
Nagito was too blinkered to ever do the right thing and only his talent bailed him out. I imagine it's also the only reason Izuru didn't smother him with a pillow immediately after they got out of VR.
Against a single dreadnaught and it's fighter compliment they were all wiped out. What were they gonna do for 16 star destroyers and the command ship? Those 6 bombers and a couple fighters were not gonna make a difference.
Kylo and two fighters alone took out most of the fleet in the first place..... which also made the whole chase incredibly stupid at the same time when they just let them go and followed them the entire time instead of launching the over 400+ tie fighters which they had on board the fleet.
This is kinda the issue: the entire chase sequence was deeply stupid. You're telling me they couldn't have launched bombers that could have caught up and done the job? No faster ships they could have used to board the rebel ship? No missiles?
Contrivances galore to facilitate the plot!
Folks nitpick the wrong things in that movie frankly, all I could do was be amazed at how stupid the entire film was with its logic. The dreadnaught firing it's first shot to blow up the base FIRST, instead of the stationary flagship of the Resistance which was there only means of escape. The Dreadnaught who apparently can not maneuver or simply back away from the approaching slow bomber fleet, instead allowing them to attack. The visual guide for the movie makes it worse in that all the defensive weapon turbo lasers on the dreadnaught are on the top of it, the bottom has no turrets, only the giant cannons that take forever to recharge.... so why was everyone attacking the protected side of the dread?
The movie also goes and shows the resistance shuttles flying away from the fleet faster than the capital ships, again why couldn't the fighters do anything? They knew where the ship was at all times, why didn't they try to blockade or send ships out in front of it to intercept over all those days of the stupid chase? Twice in the film they hyperspace jump with pin point accuracy INTO the fleet chase... how the hell then could no one else do this. The FO had days of intel just following them directly, they knew every coordinate there was.
3 tie fighters alone destroyed most of the fleet and disabled the fleet's fighter compliment, they were defenseless. Theres a throw away line about not being able to cover the fighters anymore. Cover from what? The enemy had no fighters to defend itself and three ties alone took on the entire fleet, they had the Resistance dead to rights and instead they get recalled back? What.
It felt like the whole chase was given next to no thought. It's a huge part of my dislike of the film, unlike others complaints, I liked almost the rest of the film outside of the whole stupid fleet chase idea.
Like I keep saying, the stuff with Rey and Luke and Kylo was great but the rest of the movie feels tacked on to give Finn and Poe stuff to do.
Poe was fine cause he seemed like he needed to be put in his place as part of his character development. But Finn deserved so much better. Obviously, so did Rose (and Kelly Marie Tran, by extension).
But the series does portray Jaime's actions as right and the slim few who find out the truth agree with him. It's everything else Jaime did afterwards that was bad.
Poe sat around the whole movie and didn't really do anything. Everything to do with that starship chase just felt horrible and artificial.
To us, the viewers, absolutely... But up until his death he is still derided as the King Slayer.
I still think that falls under the question as laid out by the OP.
It is a longstanding point of debate in Christianity whether people who commit sins are fulfilling a predestined role or whether they are acting of free will.
History of the Calvinist–Arminian debate - Wikipedia
Lucifer did nothing wrong
No matter how you feel about Robb's fuck-ups, Frey broke the guest right. That's one of the most evil sins in Westeros culture, and he was just a monster all-around.
Oh helllllllll nah
No matter how you feel about Robb's fuck-ups, Frey broke the guest right. That's one of the most evil sins in Westeros culture, and he was just a monster all-around.
Yeah that pissed me off. I cheered when that little shit bully got bludgeoned. Fuck her. 😂
I'm with you on this one. I don't know why anyone would have batted an eye at what El did. What those girls were doing was so cruel it felt almost artificial as you said. It almost pulled me out of the show.
yeah, little shit deserved what she got. It went far beyond "just" bullying, it was so cruel and uncomfortable I literally don't blame El for snapping. But basically everybody else did 🤷♂️
I don't think that episode framed her action as wrong. It was pictured like that just to make El's situation as more depressing, not to make her look guilty (for the viewers)
Heck they immediately made it go away afterwards with no fanfare by the ex-government guy.
Yeah, I agree. I don't think it was so much a moral crisis point for Eleven, but a culmination of her inability to fit in at school. Her only friend is the guy whose jealous of her for being his crush's boyfriend. And if that's too dismissive, her only friend she's made since being introduced to the world is the ones she made from having bonded with them over fighting the evil of the Upside Down and US government. Which is itself sad, but here comes little...whatever her name is, with the intent of bullying El, and she has no recourse. She doesn't have any friends to back her up, she doesn't have any way of fighting back. The only way she could have fought back was with her powers, and those are gone now.
So, when she decked her with the roller blades, I think it was as intense as it was because this is the first non-supernatural way that El has performed violence...and it's one that comes with consequences. Once she does that, there's basically no outlet for El except to go back to her original captors and rebuild her powers. It's sad for El, but I don't think we're meant to see it as her reaching any kind of moral bottom. Or atleast I didn't interpret it as such and going by responses in this thread and the ST thread, I don't think anyone else did either.
yes, tbh I kinda debated whether to post that example or not because I didn't think it quite fit, but then I decided to go ahead anyway because I guess I needed to vent. And at this point I think I realize my frustration was less against how it's framed "to the viewer" and more of a frustration against bullying itself. As someone who was bullied in school, this brought back some unpleasant memories/feelings back to the surface and I think it was the general people in the rink's slack-jawed expression of surprise (or, hell, their laughing at El's misery at her bullying, even if they weren't dancing around her specifically alongside that little blonde shit) at El's snapping back as if she hadn't been publicly humiliated by them only minutes ago. Like, did they expect her to just fade away or something? Anyway, apologies for my sort of rambling. I believe it's less a "El's a monster now!" framing and more of a "let's just dial up the cruelty to ridiculous levels now, let's pile upon the misery against the poor kid, eh?" that kinda set me off.
But still, little blonde shit deserved that skate to the face.
Raya and the Last Dragon
Pulling the sword on Namaari when she pulled out the crossbow first and on top of that had proven that she could not be trusted multiple times despite how much the movie wanted to harp on trying to tell Raya to trust the person who's fault all this shit is. Namaari was basically dragged kicking and screaming into doing the right thing by the end. Namaari killed Sisu, not Raya. Raya did nothing wrong.
Pulling the sword on Namaari when she pulled out the crossbow first and on top of that had proven that she could not be trusted multiple times despite how much the movie wanted to harp on trying to tell Raya to trust the person who's fault all this shit is. Namaari was basically dragged kicking and screaming into doing the right thing by the end. Namaari killed Sisu, not Raya. Raya did nothing wrong.
Reading a webtoon.
Main character is training to be a swordman, joins a tournement held by a group of legendary dwarf and he won, because of his potentional without fighting anyone.
The dwarf promise to make him a sword one uear from now, so he decide to go on a journey with his cat and a friend, when two of the runner-up, two sword master block his way, covered in blood and one toss him the cut head of another contestant.
Saying to him they killed all other contestant and people that want his sword, and if he give to them, they might let him live.
Another person heet saw what happened and called her boss, a frmale knight, what she see is two adult swordmaster, covered in blood, and a cut head of another swordman, pointing their blade at a boy and his cat, and she killed the two swordmaster quickly.
Main chacter then ask a weird question to the female knight, I dont mean to be insulting, but how can you murder them?
Main character is training to be a swordman, joins a tournement held by a group of legendary dwarf and he won, because of his potentional without fighting anyone.
The dwarf promise to make him a sword one uear from now, so he decide to go on a journey with his cat and a friend, when two of the runner-up, two sword master block his way, covered in blood and one toss him the cut head of another contestant.
Saying to him they killed all other contestant and people that want his sword, and if he give to them, they might let him live.
Another person heet saw what happened and called her boss, a frmale knight, what she see is two adult swordmaster, covered in blood, and a cut head of another swordman, pointing their blade at a boy and his cat, and she killed the two swordmaster quickly.
Main chacter then ask a weird question to the female knight, I dont mean to be insulting, but how can you murder them?
Hated minority that has suffered two genocides in a single generation should be made to register with a government frequently infiltrated by or working with people looking to commit genocide on them because a handful of them are really powerful, just like a whole shitton of other people in the world not required to register with the government just because they exist?
That sounds right to you?
What moment are you thinking of? They make it clear that Saturos, Menardi, and Felix were actually attempting to rejuvenate the world, even if they were a bit assholish about it, and they never actually did anything too terrible. Outside of that, Alex was out for power the entire time. The Wise One knew he wasn't putting Isaac and Jenna & Felix's parents in any real danger, and he even warned everyone near the remaining Lighthouses and Sol Sanctum to get them out of harm's way.
Absolutely a monster
But he out tacticianed Robb here
And Robb is responsible
Before we even get to that point there should be some type of doctors check ups to make sure the kids are safe when they go through puberty and have their powers manifest. And of course that way we're going to register what their powers are. So we don't have a 13-year-old kid with the ability to make peoples brains explode going on check. Especially in this day and age of bullying in school shooters.
I feel like in the real world Professor X would actually be OK with this and wanted to be the one to do the registration. Or X Factor. We don't need some real life Quentin Quire to get teased for his dick size and decide to omega level his entire city.
Funny thing is, since these are basically kids being born with guns, I can see the Republicans supporting "no registration "side. Because kids need their ability to shoot lasers out of their eyes to hunt deer or possibly rise up against the socialist government.
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Captain Jellico from Star Trek TNG?
He came in and reorganised the Enterprise into a more efficient ship, he instilled a greater sense of professionalism, and handled a near-war diplomatic crisis with the Cardassians with phenomenal insight and strategy. He was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Yet the episode frames the petulant brat Riker as the hero against the mean Jellico.
I know which one I'd prefer commanding any Starship I was serving on.
He came in and reorganised the Enterprise into a more efficient ship, he instilled a greater sense of professionalism, and handled a near-war diplomatic crisis with the Cardassians with phenomenal insight and strategy. He was brilliant. Absolutely brilliant.
Yet the episode frames the petulant brat Riker as the hero against the mean Jellico.
I know which one I'd prefer commanding any Starship I was serving on.
Wasn't this covered in one of the X-men comics where there's a kid that suddenly manifests a mutant ability just gives off an aura that disintegrates/irradiates everything around them, he's killed thousands of people in a matter of hours just by existing, and it's only going to get stronger. Xavier sends in wolverine to pretty much kill the kid before he's used to stoke anti-mutant sentiment and justify oppression even higher. That was pretty dark.
I always liked the commentary of the Morlocks in the late 80s comics that I read as a kid, that mutants with distasteful minor powers or severe physical mutation are far more vulnerable than some of the Xmen who have cool powers and are attractive people who can hide their abilities, have the tech and funding of a small special ops mercenary group and live in a mansion. I thought the whole 'what if a mutant kid wipes out his own town and will continue to be a walking dirty bomb until they die' to be just kinda nihilistic to the point of 'I don't know how to feel about this' though.
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The biggest debate about this ends up being human nature. Which can be applied to many real world controversies as well.
If we give children powers, will they use them to get an advantage over people, will they hide them, will it make them popular, will it make them bullied and hated, and will they use them to hurt people?
It's like "what if kids are born with guns" and everyone is going to have a different opinions on it and argue over it.
Flash war portrayed wally as wrong but his kids were out there and he finally got his family back after being told to give up by Barry.
I feel like I could do a whole essay about this pertaining to just one season of the MTV show The Challenge. I know blah blah, reality tv, blah blah. But there's a difference when it comes to competition reality shows where the audience more has an understanding of the balance of real vs editing/manufactured stuff. But there was a season called The Ruins which basically was the downfall of two guys that basically had a vice grip on MTV and production solely due to their likeability/charisma and overall presence on the show. But the whole season portrays one guy as the villain who is opposing them and then you see a whole uncomfortable season of "the good guys" basically bullying girls the entire season and then later one of the women files claims of sexual assault and all this other stuff comes out of the season. It was just a strong show of how a person coming off as likeable and charismatic while also being good at the show/game can have a complete grip on production especially when it comes to things like editing or how things are portrayed. The whole season is basically portrayed as one villain from previous season(mostly rightfully he was a piece of shit in a lot of times) thats sole goal is to come in and mess with these "good guys" and ruin the game for them. Then after the season unfolds and everything comes out it becomes clear on retrospect that maybe the villain was right and was kinda doing some good things in this season, but was edited as the crazy bad guy just trying to disrupt the "cool kids group".
Hell Johnny Bananas was part of these two guys main crew, and involved IN THIS SEASON, while shown in other seasons to also be a complete piece of shit, and he's still gone on to have a successful long career both in The Challenge and out with his own show. He scated by doing the same stuff simply because he wasn't named in the sexual assault charges.
Hell Johnny Bananas was part of these two guys main crew, and involved IN THIS SEASON, while shown in other seasons to also be a complete piece of shit, and he's still gone on to have a successful long career both in The Challenge and out with his own show. He scated by doing the same stuff simply because he wasn't named in the sexual assault charges.
I like the way you have completely side-stepped the issue of the frequent attempted lynchings of mutant adults and children that would only be exacerbated by having every mutant child exposed through the registration act.
And that's not even getting into the government sanctioned lynchings by way of giant murder bots.
And Xavier already has every mutant on the planet "registered". That's literally what Cerebro does.
Registration wouldn't have prevented this, the kid's powers were deadly from the moment they manifested.
An old school Road Rules/Real World Challenge one.
Sarah Greyson from Road Rules was portrayed as a complete whiny, bitchy worm who punch WAY above her weight in elimination challenges.
But tbh, her team just plain hated her, and finding out she was eliminating people, used her as a one woman suicide squad. Which was fucked, but it worked.
She was absolutely right to hate her team.
Sarah Greyson from Road Rules was portrayed as a complete whiny, bitchy worm who punch WAY above her weight in elimination challenges.
But tbh, her team just plain hated her, and finding out she was eliminating people, used her as a one woman suicide squad. Which was fucked, but it worked.
She was absolutely right to hate her team.
When I said "before we even get to that point" I meant that before we get to the horrifying things that happen after Uncanny #1 started, a compassionate system would have to be in place and it would, despite the large amount of criticism likely and justifiably leveled against it, include registration. The coming out of mutantdom in today's world would also be different than if mutants emerged in the real world 1963. Either way, the real and fake worlds both can't be trusted with not being hateful fucks. We'll have protests and lynchings either way. We can hopefully have a compassionate government but elect Trump again or DeSantis and the Sentinels are coming. We'll have the 700 Club hosting Senator Kelly or Bastion whether registration is in place or not.
We would need assured free healthcare, counseling, not just a small private network of schools in rural New York but affordable schools across the globe, with free public schools a necessity. Schools, preferably with a set curriculum and oversight by Xavier or pre-Krakoa Muir aisle, would need to know what care is required for the kids.
Then we can get into politics.
What the hell are you even on about? This topic is about "Moments in media where a characters actions are framed as wrong but actually right" not "hypothetically, how can we rewrite everything to make a moment in media right?"
I got on a tangent a bit but the point is that mutant registration in the comics and movies is seen as bad but I say it's necessary.
Okay, then address the issue I pointed out without going into a hypothetical where none of it exists. Because if you can't, then mutant registration is, and remains, wrong
With Eleven and ST 4. I don't know, I can't see the escalation of violence from being picked on to attacking with a weapon as in any way right. She could have killed her. I do think it was supposed to show her inability to get along in this world, but more that the only way she knows how to deal with conflict is violence. I would feel differently is she punched the girl in the face. Real world, she should be in jail for doing that. I can empathize with her feelings but her actions were massively wrong.
Mordin and the genophage in Mass Effect. It's a brutal, horrific solution but the game makes it absolutely clear that the Krogan are an uncontrollable threat to the universe, and are still just as bad as they were when it was applied. The genophage is the alternative to genocide, and at least preserves their culture for a long time.
Then in Mass Effect 3 suddenly (despite how ME2 went) its made absolutely clear that curing the genophage is the only moral, acceptable answer. No matter your choices Mordin has changed his mind. Even though the conditions where the Krogan *don't* resume being a threat are actually really hard / impossible to achieve without a very specific set of actions being taken over the last game.
The Krogan arent going to stop being a galaxy level threat, and you unleash them without any answer or solution to hand.
Then in Mass Effect 3 suddenly (despite how ME2 went) its made absolutely clear that curing the genophage is the only moral, acceptable answer. No matter your choices Mordin has changed his mind. Even though the conditions where the Krogan *don't* resume being a threat are actually really hard / impossible to achieve without a very specific set of actions being taken over the last game.
The Krogan arent going to stop being a galaxy level threat, and you unleash them without any answer or solution to hand.
Even if it weren't, how would Robb jilting a Frey justify mass murder?
From a logical/clinical standpoint, this is true; physically attacking someone because they were a bully is very, very bad and exactly the sort of stuff that escalates into horrific violence in schools in the real world. We know, as adults, that it shouldn't happen, and that mockery is a very different thing from physical violence.
However, in the context of the show, it was jarring to see kids, including Eleven's friends, treat it as a massive, completely over-the-top transgression. Will in particular. He had seen how Angela basically tortured Eleven for months, likely, culminating in a group shaming captured on video in front of her boyfriend. I guess you could say the same for Mike, but he had been told Angela was a friend, so maybe he was just in shock. Will though? For it to be a "what have you done!?" instance? Nah. No, for "friends of a perpetually bulled kid" I'd've expected cheering or backing up or something other than "abject shock and horror" when they get back at the bully.
One could argue the show doesn't frame it as wrong, in that she got her record expunged pretty much right after, but for 100% of her fellow high school characters to be like "Oh wow how could you ever do such a thing" is weird.
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I'm glad I'm not alone.
Thanks for spoilering your post--I haven't finished S4 yet and it would've sucked to have been spoilered randomly :)
I can agree with that.
Will and Mikes response wasn't very supportive, especially as kids that have been bullied as well. I just wouldn't consider El in the right.
I thought they originally framed the lighting of the beacons to bring the end of the world in the beginning only later to realize it was actually a good thing?
They do, but as early as the start of The Lost Age they're letting us know that what Saturos, Menardi, and Felix are actually after is rejuvenating the world. It gets expanded on more once the two groups make it through Jupiter Lighthouse and everything is laid bare when the group makes it to Prox.
I guess I took the intent of the thread as the people saying a group is wrong are never told or shown that what the character(s) in question are doing is actually the correct thing.
Depends on the book. In Mathew he just betrays Jesus, but in other book they mention he is possessed by satan at the time. So in those he doesn't really betray Jesus it's Satan doing it.
Also in Acts 1:18 he buys a field and then explodes.