Much Ado About Loot Boxes - former EA Product Manager puts the case for loot boxes

[panda-zebra]

A recent thread discussed the ESA's response to Hawaii's Loot Box proposals, from a gamesindustry.biz article. Down in the comments section, the majority of posts were pro-loot box and from a single person. He's a dev who (I believe) recently had a part in releasing a CCG mobile game) and describes himself on linkedin as follows:

I aim to deliver fun and engaging content to drive user acquisition, retention and monetization.

I am a strong believer in Games as a Service and the free-to-play business model. I think it's crucial to be creatively led and data driven. By driving and implementing an informed iterative process, 'Design, Deploy, Measure, Analyse and Iterate' I've worked to make good games better, more engaging and more profitable.

As it's not common for people in the industry to go into too much detail, I thought this might be thread-worthy, as he's gathered all his thoughts on the matter in a gamasutra blog post. Here's a few excerpts:

I think we need to consider the relevance of why so many are saying loot boxes are the same as gambling; it's because we are looking to conflate it with something that is considered potentially damaging and hence restricted by law.

Click to shrink...

One test we could consider for whether loot boxes are harmful is to see if they are behind a lot of bankruptcies. I really couldn't find any cases of loot boxes being responsible for serious financial harm though it's possible that it's just not recorded in this way.

Click to shrink...

Frankly, parents have got to step up and do more. An iPad isn't a babysitting device, you don't get to ignore your kids because they're busy playing Mario Run. ...

I think the issue of whether loot boxes are suitable for children should be up to the parent. It's not an acceptable excuse for parents to say they don't know the content of a game because that's precisely their responsibility.

Click to shrink...

There's lots more (including a pretty hefty disclaimer) here:Much Ado About Loot Boxes

Thoughts? I'm not massively keen on some of the tactics employed in the post. Equating loot-oriented and lootbox-ridden experiences being one of them. Pokémon GO's incense and loot boxes are two very different things, IMO.

Charge me $4.99 for 10 random chances to do better in my 2nd thread if old/unsuitable/etc.

 

[Deleted member 888]

Man, the industry is going into full-blown defense mode. This is going to get messy.

So before tackling Loot box regulation, I want to touch on what it would entail. We all remember Jack Thompson and others trying to restrict violence in games but I want to look at more recent issues.

Chris Lee, a Hawaii state legislator has argued for and been involved in introducing a bill which would clamp down on loot boxes. Lee has stated that he wants to bring an end to 'pay-to-win' in games which is far more troubling as it suggests a desire for legislative creep beyond loot boxes.

There are lots of games that have 'pay-to-win' or at least positive power reinforcement as main mechanics in a way that benefit rather than hurt the game. In Clash Royale, you are matched with players based on your 'Trophies', they act as a matchmaking score or rank – the number that depicts your relative performance in multiplayer matches. By matching on Trophies on a performance score rather than what access they have to power they manage to keep the game fair because the game's focus is finding a good opponent where both players have a good chance of winning. It's a bit like a handicap score in golf. Facing an opponent who is more powerful is not automatically an unfair competition because skill comes into it. This isn't bad game design, it's levelling the playing field to keep things fun.

In a game where you can earn or buy more power, as an opponent you would have no idea which had been done so, why would it matter? It wouldn't. Even if you could buy a power advantage that couldn't be earned, isn't that the right of the creator to create such a system? Why do we have legislators rushing to try and impinge on the free expression of creating games? As long as every player is informed I really don't see any consumer protection issues.

Click to shrink...

Your industry will not self-regulate. Display your fucking odds and offer some more in-game education around what the boxes are, how your odds work and if there is any variable odd rates/pity timers/etc. No? You "can't" do that? Well, take a seat and enjoy the ride.

You've been told how you stop/stem Government intervention, you won't do it, you reap what you sow.

 

[Silvergun-Blue]

So they're harmless until they cause bankruptcies? It's amazing how overt these people are about how few fucks they give.

 

[Funny Valentine]

While I agree that parents can always do more to monitor their kids' purchases online, a lot of this is just the same generic handwaving we get from industry folks on this subject. Saying "oh lootboxes have never bankrupted anyone" is a pretty flimsy dismissal when there was a Kotaku article about the harmful psychological effects of microtransactions a week or so ago. IIRC it included a story about someone who basically wanted to kill themselves because of how foolish they felt after being compelled to buy currency in a mobile game.

 

[carlsojo]

So they're harmless until they cause bankruptcies? It's amazing how overt these people are about how few fucks they give.

Click to shrink...

He's trying to compare the harm of loot boxes vs. actual gambling using actually measurable data.

 

[Secretofmateria]

I guess im translating this as "but without lootboxes how else can we trick children into using mommy or daddys credit cards irresponsibly?"

 

[Deleted member 1726]

In fact, if we think about it a bit at a higher level isn't buying games just like buying loot? I know that Daniel Cook wrote a humorous tongue in cheek article about 'Coercive Pay-2-Play Techniques' where he covered this

Think how much money you've put into games that you didn't actually enjoy. You had no way of knowing whether you were going to enjoy it before you bought it and with refund systems you generally can't get your money back.

Click to shrink...

I love this line. So games themselves are loot boxes, so we're buying loot boxes to get loot boxes.

I heard you like loot boxes, we need to go deeper.

Really though, what is a Loot box?

While it's simple to understand the notion of a loot box it's surprisingly simple to use the same underlying mechanics in a way to abstract the experience that we wouldn't then easily identify as a loot box.

Let's imagine a Roguelike, say FTL (To clarify FTL is a paid game, and it's amazing) and consider adding a 'pay-to-continue' option when your ship is destroyed, a bit like an old arcade game. Now, given that the content is randomly generated – did you just buy a Loot box? Think about it, you just paid for an unknown outcome, it would be sold to you complete with the knowledge that what is coming is unknown, that's exactly what happens when you buy a Loot box.

Click to shrink...

That's also comedy gold. Continues are loot boxes too.

 

[diablogg]

Yea their gravy trains coming to an end, and soon. I can only wait with popcorn at this point as the ESA, the ESRB and 90% of the big boy publishers basically have said everything is fine and there's nothing wrong with people paying for mock slot machines without any sort of age restriction, oversight or regulation.

 

[Atrophis]

False Equivalence: The Blog Post.

 

[Razor Mom]

IIRC it included a story about someone who basically wanted to kill themselves because of how foolish they felt after being compelled to buy currency in a mobile game.

Click to shrink...

Could you link to this? Not that I don't think there's probably really bad phycological effects to loot box addiction, but killing yourself because you feel foolish seems like it might be a glimpse at an underlying problem rather than causation.

 

[Deleted member 888]

I love this line. So games themselves are loot boxes, so we're buying loot boxes to get loot boxes.

I heard you like loot boxes, we need to go deeper.



That's also comedy gold. Continues are loot boxes too.

Click to shrink...

Really though, what is a Loot box?

While it's simple to understand the notion of a loot box it's surprisingly simple to use the same underlying mechanics in a way to abstract the experience that we wouldn't then easily identify as a loot box.

Let's imagine a Roguelike, say FTL (To clarify FTL is a paid game, and it's amazing) and consider adding a 'pay-to-continue' option when your ship is destroyed, a bit like an old arcade game. Now, given that the content is randomly generated – did you just buy a Loot box? Think about it, you just paid for an unknown outcome, it would be sold to you complete with the knowledge that what is coming is unknown, that's exactly what happens when you buy a Loot box.

Click to shrink...

That reads like an explanation you'd find from a random gamer on Resetera (no offense to any poster directly, I'm just saying it's forum-tier argumentation, not "I'm from the industry", heed my wisdom). Complete fallacy.

I guess I might be being tough on this community, so I should maybe go with GameFAQs-tier.

 

[danmaku]

Funny how he tries to shift responsibility to the parents. Of course they need to keep an eye on their children's games, that goes without saying. But if your lootboxes weren't specifically designed to extract money from them, the parents wouldn't need to worry to begin with.

 

[StuBurns]

It's a tough situation. I believe strongly that publishers should be free to make their games as shitty as they like. Parents should also be responsible for what their children play and what they spend money on.

Are loot boxes gambling? I don't know. It's true that they always get something, like in those card collecting games, but in those games, you can always trade the ones you don't want for the ones you do. This is some ugly middle-ground, that personally, I find absurd, and have never engaged in. But the market should reward and castrate publishers. If Acti make more cash from MTs than the actual games, fair enough, clearly enough people like that model that it makes sense to move in that direction.

It's a shame what I enjoy from games is on the way out, but I'm not sure being the old man yelling at clouds is a better outlook. I don't understand people who play competitive games that are perverted by these design elements, but alas.

 

[Deleted member 1726]

Could you link to this? Not that I don't think there's probably really bad phycological effects to loot box addiction, but killing yourself because you feel foolish seems like it might be a glimpse at an underlying problem rather than causation.

Click to shrink...

Well I don't think this is the same article, but this is a guy talking about his addiction to FIFA Ultimate Team packs and the negative effects on his life.

https://www.reddit.com/r/tifu/comments/7vff1j/tifu_ive_kept_a_secret_from_my_girlfriend/

 

[ZeroCoin]

It's pretty easy to understand loot boxes guys. If you make money from loot boxes, it all makes perfect sense how they are in no way like gambling. Glad we have someone that really gets them to explain them to us.

 

[Deleted member 1726]

That reads like an explanation you'd find from a random gamer on Resetera (no offense to any poster directly, I'm just saying it's forum-tier argumentation, not "I'm from the industry", heed my wisdom). Complete fallacy.

I guess I might be being tough on this community, so I should maybe go with GameFAQs-tier.

Click to shrink...

Are my shits loot boxes? I mean, I never know what's going to come out.

 

[ukas]

Funny how he tries to shift responsibility to the parents. Of course they need to keep an eye on their children's games, that goes without saying. But if your lootboxes weren't specifically designed to extract money from them, the parents wouldn't need to worry to begin with.

Click to shrink...

Victim blaming knows no bounds.

 

[GarthLordOfTheSith]

What it reads like is "man who essentially makes loot boxes tries to defend his job."

Sorry, loot boxes are shit.

 

[Gold Arsene]

The industry has shown they give zero fucks about consumers. There going to continue manipulating and exploiting people with zero self regulation.

If the government steps in I don't want to hear a single damn complaint from any of these people. They had there chance to turn this ship around and have demonstrated that money is all that matters.

 

[FF Seraphim]

The government is going to come down hard on them if they keep trying to say everything is fine...

 

[Deleted member 888]

Are my shits loot boxes? I mean, I never know what's going to come out.

Click to shrink...

LOL, 10/10.

https://burningannie.com/features/shitlist.html

To be fair some of the RNG on that list are far worse than others.

 

[adrem007]

I honestly dont know what is worse, that he really believes it or that he is just trying to lighten the devs greed. I mean that FTL fragment is pure madness

 

[Eumi]

"Lootboxes don't cause bankruptcy so they're harmless" is possibly the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.

Par for the course for lootbox defence.

 

[Deleted member 1726]

The industry has shown they give zero fucks about consumers. There going to continue manipulating and exploiting people with zero self regulation.

If the government steps in I don't want to hear a single damn complaint from any of these people. They had there chance to turn this ship around and have demonstrated that money is all that matters.

Click to shrink...

I believe they should've stuck with the traditional microtransaction.

You want this weapon/piece of clothing/animal, here it's $3.99, knock yourself out.

Instead they added a layer of bullshit with RNG that kept people on a treadmill trying to get that one item they want, all the while adding further items to the pool to dilute their chances of pulling the item they want.

 

[G-X]

1. Our industry that we support, grew up with, love, some of us work in, is exploiting a predatory practice that in itself is dangerous for those if not properly identified.
2. The only "creep" going on here is publishers push for mxt in all facets in gaming while also maintaining this ridiculous idea of set prices. Your game can't sustain on a 60.00 msrp? Charge 80. All AAA games need to be 70? Cool start charging it, let the market decide.
3. Playing the jack Thompson card? Really? That's like Trump saying he can't possibly have colluded with Russia because remember McCarthyism?
4. This industry's big players are going to make the most loyal of us turn them, and they very well may find themselves on the other side of the aisle in public discourse.

 

[night814]

Oof so loot boxes are fine because the companies using them in their games aren't losing money, just the players are.....

 

[Poutine Runner 2049]

This idiot wants to blame parents while companies like EA keep destroying sensible game design in pursuit of additional revenue through skinner boxes.

What these companies are doing isnt sustainable and will bleed the industry dry. Too bad that won't matter to these suits who will just move to another industry and brag about driving up spreadsheet figures without ever realizing the true impact of their heinous greed.

 

[Animal Liberation Ⓥ]

He's trying to compare the harm of loot boxes vs. actual gambling using actually measurable data.

Click to shrink...

Well there is no actual measurable data for loot boxes yet (since they are in their infancy), so....

It is what we call a disingenuous comparison.

This idiot wants to blame parents while companies like EA keep destroying sensible game design in pursuit of additional revenue through skinner boxes.

What these conpanies are doing isnt sustainable and will bleed the industry dry. Too bad that won't matter to these suits who will just move to anothet industry and brag about driving up spreadsheet figures without ever realizing the true impact of their heinous greed.

Click to shrink...

Well said.

 

[Filament Star]

One test we could consider for whether loot boxes are harmful is to see if they are behind a lot of bankruptcies. I really couldn't find any cases of loot boxes being responsible for serious financial harm though it's possible that it's just not recorded in this way.

Click to shrink...

Don't we have plenty of stories about this? Like the guy that spent all his money on Fifa boxes?

 

[Schreckweg 5000]

Using Mario Run as example. Thats funny.

 

[Hella]

There is no defense: Loot Boxes Are Designed To Exploit Us. A fantastic article from Kotaku's Heather Alexandra. Best to read the whole thing, but here's a key excerpt:

When you go to a casino, they give you chips. When I log into Fire Emblem Heroes, they give me orbs. This isn't a problem that started with Shadow of Mordor. It is something that has been a cornerstone of games for years now. Pull that lever and you'll realize that these boxes are designed to fuck you over and take your cash. For every person who can step away, plenty of people can't. It's a system that preys on addiction, built upon mountains of research on how best to trick people into letting companies rob them.

I still play my gacha games. I still play Overwatch. I write about those games here. I think they're fun. But we need to acknowledge what loot boxes are. They're slot machines in everything but name, meticulously crafted to encourage player spending and keep them on the hook.

The problem isn't just that games cost more to make or that loot boxes might affect multiplayer balance. The problem is that I can't delete these games. The problem is that I'm not the only one. And that's exactly what publishers are counting on.​

I don't know how anyone can disagree. Monetisation around loot loxes is a toxic design mentality that is antithetical to making a game satisfying (and thus fun). For things to improve, loot boxes cannot continue.

 

[Redcrayon]

Ian Griffiths said:
One test we could consider for whether loot boxes are harmful is to see if they are behind a lot of bankruptcies. I really couldn't find any cases of loot boxes being responsible for serious financial harm though it's possible that it's just not recorded in this way.

Click to shrink...

That's one test we could consider, before we realise that something doesn't need to destroy a lot of people's lives before we consider its implications. I'd test for the destructive addiction that is the extreme consequence of the behavioural psychology involved in lootbox monetisation schemes before I tested for bankruptcy, and that would show up an awful lot earlier as ten seconds on a search engine would do it.
https://www.google.co.uk/amp/s/mashable.com/2017/12/01/19-gaming-gambling-addict.amp

I think we need to consider the relevance of why so many are saying loot boxes are the same as gambling; it's because we are looking to conflate it with something that is considered potentially damaging and hence restricted by law.

Click to shrink...

Alternatively, we are looking to conflate it with another industry that offers free gaming to draw new players in, fixes the odds and offers just enough of a hook to keep playing through the drip-feed of smaller rewards. Funnily enough, that's considered potentially damaging when aimed at children which is why the gambling industry isn't allowed to do it.

 

[caff!!!]

loot boxes? free expression? give me a fucking break sunshine, AAAA games are demo tested into that goop neo eats in the matrix.

 

[Zappy]

"Lootboxes don't cause bankruptcy so they're harmless" is possibly the stupidest thing I've heard in a while.

Par for the course for lootbox defence.

Click to shrink...

It would be stupid, but isn't quite what he said.

I'm not sure his proposition to measure based on actual harm inflicted makes sense, given he switches from talking addiction of gambling to "harm".

But still he didn't quite say what you're implying.

 

[Deleted member 1726]

There is no defense: Loot Boxes Are Designed To Exploit Us. A fantastic article from Kotaku's Heather Alexandra. Best to read the whole thing, but here's a key excerpt:

When you go to a casino, they give you chips. When I log into Fire Emblem Heroes, they give me orbs. This isn't a problem that started with Shadow of Mordor. It is something that has been a cornerstone of games for years now. Pull that lever and you'll realize that these boxes are designed to fuck you over and take your cash. For every person who can step away, plenty of people can't. It's a system that preys on addiction, built upon mountains of research on how best to trick people into letting companies rob them.

I still play my gacha games. I still play Overwatch. I write about those games here. I think they're fun. But we need to acknowledge what loot boxes are. They're slot machines in everything but name, meticulously crafted to encourage player spending and keep them on the hook.

The problem isn't just that games cost more to make or that loot boxes might affect multiplayer balance. The problem is that I can't delete these games. The problem is that I'm not the only one. And that's exactly what publishers are counting on.​

I don't know how anyone can disagree. Monetisation around loot loxes is a toxic design mentality that is antithetical to making a game satisfying (and thus fun). For things to improve, loot boxes cannot continue.

Click to shrink...

100% spot on.

 

[Evolved1]

Well all I can do is not buy products from these people and support politicians who are trying to hold them accountable. That's what I'll do. I used to buy some of this stuff out of a misguided notion I was supporting devs who were taking risks on "fair" monetization models... but people were right, slippery slope. I read this horseshit in the OP and sorry, **** these jerks. It was a wedge strategy the whole time.

 

[Deleted member 1849]

Don't we have plenty of stories about this? Like the guy that spent all his money on Fifa boxes?

Click to shrink...

Yup. That guy got himself into thousands of pounds of debt from a long term gambling habit trying to get the most from FIFA Ultimate Team.

There are many instances of loot boxes causing serious financial harm.

 

[Animal Liberation Ⓥ]

There is no defense: Loot Boxes Are Designed To Exploit Us. A fantastic article from Kotaku's Heather Alexandra. Best to read the whole thing, but here's a key excerpt:

When you go to a casino, they give you chips. When I log into Fire Emblem Heroes, they give me orbs. This isn't a problem that started with Shadow of Mordor. It is something that has been a cornerstone of games for years now. Pull that lever and you'll realize that these boxes are designed to fuck you over and take your cash. For every person who can step away, plenty of people can't. It's a system that preys on addiction, built upon mountains of research on how best to trick people into letting companies rob them.

I still play my gacha games. I still play Overwatch. I write about those games here. I think they're fun. But we need to acknowledge what loot boxes are. They're slot machines in everything but name, meticulously crafted to encourage player spending and keep them on the hook.

The problem isn't just that games cost more to make or that loot boxes might affect multiplayer balance. The problem is that I can't delete these games. The problem is that I'm not the only one. And that's exactly what publishers are counting on.​

I don't know how anyone can disagree. Monetisation around loot loxes is a toxic design mentality that is antithetical to making a game satisfying (and thus fun). For things to improve, loot boxes cannot continue.

Click to shrink...

Completely agree. Good post.

 

[esserius]

This guy is defending selling loot boxes to children... wow. And blaming the parents too. Double whammy of misplacing blame and selling stuff to kids who don't know any better.

 

[OldMuffin]

Wait wasn't there something recently where this guy was addicted to the card lack system or whatever in fifa to the point where he was ruined financially and his girlfriend left him? If so there you go, loot boxes ruin lives.

 

[Richietto]

Every time these people open their mouth they just make themselves look even more terrible. I guess they gotta at least try to defend this shit. At this point government legislation is almost a guarantee. Also we really gonna blame the parents for your exploitative practices??? And wait and see if there are people who have gone bankrupt??? Lmao these people are a trip.

 

[Demacabre]

Wait. He's right. We should all wait until someone declares bankruptcy from loot boxes before this officially is a problem. That's the metric from publishers/developers. /s

 

[Deleted member 32309]

It only tells us profit matter more than precautionary principle for him.
He can think what he want...let's hope we will legislate otherwise (for change).

 

[Luchashaq]

Fuck the games industry, if you want all the benefits of gambling you have to take the drawbacks.

If that is what you need to remain profitable (LOL) just retire/close up shop because your company is worthless.

 

[boris_feinbrand]

Seems like they are starting to feel the heat a bit?

 

[Deleted member 888]

Pachter agrees!



Also here is Ian completely misrepresenting Chris Lee



Regulation doesn't = banning, but please, say it is so you can play the victim.

THE END OF ALL THESE GAMES! THE END.

I mean, you could just be transparent about your odds and explain loot boxes properly to consumers, but no, being that honest would be too hard.

 

[Animal Liberation Ⓥ]

Fuck the games industry, if you want all the benefits of gambling you have to take the drawbacks.

If that is what you need to remain profitable (LOL) just retire/close up shop because your company is worthless.

Click to shrink...

For real!

Pachter agrees!



Also here is Ian completely misrepresenting Chris Lee

Click to shrink...

This is my shocked face. -.-

 

[esserius]

Pachter agrees!



Also here is Ian completely misrepresenting Chris Lee



Regulation doesn't = banning, but please, say it is so you can play the victim.

THE END OF ALL THESE GAMES! THE END.

I mean, you could just be transparent about your odds and explain loot boxes properly to consumers, but no, being that honest would be too hard.

Click to shrink...

Oh no... the game industry might have to take a small measure of responsibility for all their shitty practices... what a nightmare...

 

[Gold Arsene]

Seems like they are starting to feel the heat a bit?

Click to shrink...

I had this theory in another thread about why people seem more defensive then usual about this subject.

It used to be that no one in the government cared or knew enough about lootboxes to do anything. "Nothing will come of this" was a pretty common rallying cry. My guess is they thought if they ignored it everyone would forget about it in a few months.

Now however it's clear that this isn't going away. It's why people in the industry are trying to spin this like they care and why certain fans are trying there hardest to discredit anyone talking negatively about lootboxes. See the Jimquisition threads or the recent thread about CD Projekt Red.

It's been made clear that this isn't going away.

 

[Deleted member 5621]

I really like how lootboxes apologists can't ever come up with a logic argument as to why lootboxes are a positive addition to games. They keep trying to deflect legitimate criticisms and doing false equivalencies.