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Inugami

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,995
Yeah I think this is a good time to repost this article from a few months back. These people don't care if you die, they just don't think they'll die and so they don't care if they get covid.
timjwise.medium.com

COVID Anti-Vaxxers Aren’t a MAGA Death Cult — It’s Worse Than That

Deathbed regrets from vaccine resisters speak volumes about the brokenness of conservatism
This. It's literally what OP's coworker thought, and is exactly how they acted.
 
Oct 27, 2017
21,545
Always, antivaxxers only think about themselves. They willfully ignore the fact that not being vaccinated puts everyone around them at risk, and that every time the virus gains a foothold it gives the virus more opportunities to mutate. If they get sick enough to go to the hospital, they put an avoidable burden on the medical system. And of course if they do end up dying themselves, they've caused avoidable grief for their families.
Antivax == selfishness.
That's why I get so sick of hearing NFL quarterbacks and others keep saying it's a "personal choice" to get vaccinated. Fuck that, it's a responsibility everyone has to protect others. Personal choice goes out the window because of that.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,418
Phoenix
That's why I get so sick of hearing NFL quarterbacks and others keep saying it's a "personal choice" to get vaccinated. Fuck that, it's a responsibility everyone has to protect others. Personal choice goes out the window because of that.
Right? If you ever listen to these people bitch about their freedom or personal choice, you'd think they have never heard of laws before. They aren't walking around the neighborhood in the nude for example. Where is the outrage over the freedom to be nude? Like that is how we are born. Why should anybody have to wear clothes?

It's not about freedom or choice at all. Never has been.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,349
New York
I don't really mind "not caring". I mind seeing stuff like "yeah they should die".

I'm on a message board where there are effectively zero anti-vaxxers. Obviously their actions are 1000x worse. But I'm not talking to them right now. I'm talking to y'all.

Gotcha. Yea, I'm not going to co-sign those sentiments. But I'm not going to pretend I don't understand where that frustration comes from.
 

Captain_Vyse

Member
Jun 24, 2020
6,824
I'm at the point where I don't wish ill of anyone (except Trump himself, of course), but I'm all out of sympathy for these people. No more sympathy for adults who choose not to get vaccinated, and don't have a valid medical reason for not getting it.
 

Laephis

Member
Jun 25, 2021
2,570
drug addiction, and how people become addicted to drugs, is a far different path than someone that is antivax. false equivalence.
Yep - I never caught a drug addiction by sitting next to someone on a bus. And there's no vaccine I can take to prevent it. For some reason Covid attracts the dumbest analogies.
 

ZmillA

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,165
I generally agree with the sentiment of the OP, but can we all stop and acknowledge how messed up it is that this is where the world is?

Is there any coming back from this? I know there has been more severe pandemics in the past, but with all the modern things we have these days, surely the effects will be more long lasting.
 

Radd Redd

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,030
This is why I almost had to drag my father, cursing me out, while throwing a couple swings at me, to get his vaccine. Fuck it, he hates me already anyway but it's what my mom would've wanted. Then he acts like we're supposed to be cool now after he got them.🙄
 

Nax

Hero of Bowerstone
Member
Oct 10, 2018
6,676
I've been fighting with my dad for a while now trying to get him to be vaxxed. Some people are just so entrenched in their opinions and misinformed, it becomes harder and harder to convince them they're wrong. These people don't think they're spreading death. And for that reason, I could never wish or take comfort in their death.

Some folks here have no concept of complex situations. It's always the "burn it all down" mentality. A path that leads nowhere.

At the very least, have some tact.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,605
By this logic, you would argue that people that load themselves into a catapult and launches themselves 50 feet into the air and dies from it deserving of life, and we who ridicules them because this clearly falls into the Darwin awards is horrid. I don't know if death by self-owning is deserving of sympathy, especially in a case of starting a super spreader event where even more people will die.
I would argue that, and I do think they're deserving of life, and I am very sad that the state of that person's mind...whether through idiocy, ignorance, or brainwashing...somehow caused them to think catapulting themselves 50 feet into the air was a good idea.

The Darwin Awards are pretty sick, too, man. I don't know how to explain to you that human life has inherent value, even the fucking stupid ones. I'm not saying they deserve a lot of sympathy, I'm saying I don't ACTIVELY WANT THEM DEAD, and I will not laugh and poke fun at a human death, because I think it's funny or deserved or something.
 

NaDannMaGoGo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,968
These people don't think they're spreading death. And for that reason, I could never wish or take comfort in their death.

But they ARE doing just that and that's why they mustn't get any sympathy as the group they are. I'd take comfort in their death insofar, that it means fewer deaths overall. That they mean no harm or, in fact, are convinced it's us who're idiot victims of some conspiracy, does ultimately not excuse that they are spreading the disease as well as making it last that god damned much longer overall.

If I don't mean ill while driving a bus full of people towards a cliff that is great and all, but you'd probably still want to stop me at any cost right then. And if I die in the process, before taking anyone with me, then that'd be a great outcome.

Of course, ideally, these fucking anti-vaxxers (my mom is among them, btw) would just see reason. But you really can't stress the ideally enough, there.
 

rjinaz

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
28,418
Phoenix
As tragic as a covid death is, it actually can lead to others getting vaxed. Finally last week, my elderly parents got the covid vaccine. After enough of their friends had died from it, I guess they figured they might as well, even if they still argue that they didn't need to but at least people will shut up about it.

I didn't think they ever would. But I think that 4th funeral finally did it for them.
 

Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
As tragic as a covid death is, it actually can lead to others getting vaxed. Finally last week, my elderly parents got the covid vaccine. After enough of their friends had died from it, I guess they figured they might as well, even if they still argue that they didn't need to but at least people will shut up about it.

I didn't think they ever would. But I think that 4th funeral finally did it for them.

And people surviving can have the opposite effect, hardening them against vaccinations and discouraging others.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
I would argue that, and I do think they're deserving of life, and I am very sad that the state of that person's mind...whether through idiocy, ignorance, or brainwashing...somehow caused them to think catapulting themselves 50 feet into the air was a good idea.

The Darwin Awards are pretty sick, too, man. I don't know how to explain to you that human life has inherent value, even the fucking stupid ones. I'm not saying they deserve a lot of sympathy, I'm saying I don't ACTIVELY WANT THEM DEAD, and I will not laugh and poke fun at a human death, because I think it's funny or deserved or something.
Your position is a fair one to have. I am coming more from the utilitarian/consequentialist belief that their death will result in less death overall like other posters have posited. I take no joy in their demise, but I sure am glad that they are unable to continue to wantonly go contribute to more deaths because of how contagious Covid has been especially the delta and now reported omicron turn out to be.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,605
Your position is a fair one to have. I am coming more from the utilitarian/consequentialist belief that their death will result in less death overall like other posters have posited. I take no joy in their demise, but I sure am glad that they are unable to continue to wantonly go contribute to more deaths because of how contagious Covid has been especially the delta and now reported omicron turn out to be.
Numerically I don't think that's true. There's no way one anti-vaxxer's death equates to one saved pro-vax life. You could try weighting pro-vax lives as worth more, but that's problematic as well.

I would pull the switch on the Trolley Problem, but I don't think it equates.

And even then, I wouldn't revel in it. It would still be sad.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
Numerically I don't think that's true. There's no way one anti-vaxxer's death equates to one saved pro-vax life. You could try weighting pro-vax lives as worth more, but that's problematic as well.

I would pull the switch on the Trolley Problem, but I don't think it equates.
Strictly speaking in the case in the OP, I'd say yes the numbers would add up that his demise is a net positive in the world. The coworker doesn't appear to have thought out the consequences of his actions, leading to his own death, and potentially many others because the wedding is a super-spreader event.

You could be right with some anti-vaxxers that are just skeptics of the vaccine and just avoids being in public and everyone. But, I would argue that those that spreads misinformation about the vaccine would ultimately end up causing more deaths, and to these people, I have little to no sympathy towards since they are willing or unwilling agents of death.
 
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Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
Numerically I don't think that's true. There's no way one anti-vaxxer's death equates to one saved pro-vax life.

There's really no way you could determine that with napkin math. Whenever someone dies, other people's behavior may change. It's just a question of what they do differently and how many people are affected.

For instance, if Trump had died, it's possible thousands of people would have become more cautious and lots of lives would have been saved.

Fairly difficult to estimate the direction and magnitude of this effect for the "average" anti vaxxer.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,605
Strictly speaking in the case in the OP, I'd say yes the numbers would add up that his demise is a net positive in the world. The coworker doesn't appear to have thought out the consequences of his actions, leading to his own death, and potentially many others because the wedding is a super-spreader event.

You could be right with some anti-vaxxers that are just skeptics of the vaccine and just avoids being in public and everyone. But, I would argue that those that spreads misinformation about the vaccine would ultimately end up causing me deaths, and to these people, I have little to no sympathy towards since they are willing or unwilling agents of death.
It might be a net positive to all others on the planet, but only if you *don't count the death of the person in question as a negative*.

This is chilling logic. You cannot be happy about a death because you think the world is better with them dead. That's what murderers think. That's what dictators think.

Edit: Trump isn't quite the same, it's pretty easy to make a case that even including his death as a single sad life lost, the world would be a far, FAR better place. His reach was exponentially far greater than any random anti-vaxxer. Also, I think he's actively evil, not *just* an idiot.

Re: napkin math, about 7,000 people die per day of COVID...there might be, give or take, a billion anti-vaxxers for one reason or another. The numbers don't add up, at least as an average.
 

Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
This is chilling logic. You cannot be happy about a death because you think the world is better with them dead.

Despite your temperature change I don't really mind discussing this sort of thing.

Like "would you go back in time to kill baby hitler" is nearly an icebreaker given how often it's brought up.

Moral decision making needs to take into account that some people's behavior endangers many other people.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
It might be a net positive to all others on the planet, but only if you *don't count the death of the person in question as a negative*.

This is chilling logic. You cannot be happy about a death because you think the world is better with them dead. That's what murderers think. That's what dictators think.

Edit: Trump isn't quite the same, it's pretty easy to make a case that even including his death as a single sad life lost, the world would be a far, FAR better place. His reach was exponentially far greater than any random anti-vaxxer. Also, I think he's actively evil, not *just* an idiot.
I am counting the person who dies because of COVID as a negative. What makes you think that had they lived, especially the cowoker of the OP, would not host other super spreader events. What makes you think he hasn't already hosted many in the past and somehow avoided the analogical bullet?

I am simply thinking about the numbers of 1 person = 1 point. If a person can spread the disease, and he is eliminated from circulation and is not spreading the disease, then that is a net positive even if we minus one from circulation. Poisoning of the mind with misinformation is another cause for concern. If they are also taken out of the equation due to their own selfish and idiotic actions, then I would not have much sympathy for them either.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,605
Despite your temperature change I don't really mind discussing this sort of thing.

Like "would you go back in time to kill baby hitler" is nearly an icebreaker given how often it's brought up.

Moral decision making needs to take into account that some people's behavior endangers many other people.
These are outsized examples (Trump, Hitler) that have incredibly far reaching effects, and also are clearly rooted in pure hatred, enmity, and evil. Trump *knows* the vaccine is effective, he got it immediately. He isn't ignorant of its effects. But he and his ilk (Hannity, etc.) have stirred up incredible anti-vax sentiment. The average anti-vaxxer is basically just a susceptible rube, and it isn't the same calculation.
I am counting the person who dies because of COVID as a negative. What makes you think that had they lived, especially the cowoker of the OP, would not host other super spreader events. What makes you think he hasn't already hosted many in the past and somehow avoided the analogical bullet?

I am simply thinking about the numbers of 1 person = 1 point. If a person can spread the disease, and he is eliminated from circulation and is not spreading the disease, then that is a net positive even if we minus one from circulation. Poisoning of the mind with misinformation is another cause for concern. If they are also taken out of the equation due to their own selfish and idiotic actions, then I would not have much sympathy for them either.
Because it simply doesn't make sense. Far fewer people die, have died, and almost certainly will die in sum total than there are anti-vaxxers in the world. So their deaths cannot be saving one life each, on average. It doesn't make sense. And that's assuming literally every single COVID death can be traced back to an anti-vaxxer, which wasn't the case minimum for at least the first ten months of COVID.
 

Nothing Loud

Literally Cinderella
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,998
It might be a net positive to all others on the planet, but only if you *don't count the death of the person in question as a negative*.

This is chilling logic. You cannot be happy about a death because you think the world is better with them dead. That's what murderers think. That's what dictators think.

Edit: Trump isn't quite the same, it's pretty easy to make a case that even including his death as a single sad life lost, the world would be a far, FAR better place. His reach was exponentially far greater than any random anti-vaxxer. Also, I think he's actively evil, not *just* an idiot.

It's just run-of-the-mill utilitarian ethics, which has moral flaws with considering each person with an imbued amount of good or bad based on utility to the greater good. It's not outrageous or "chilling logic," it's just one way to solve the victim-on-the-train-tracks ethical problem, and it's insufficient and inadequate as a greater ethical philosophy.

Having said that, there's no need to feel empathy for these people, as the Medium article succinctly argues. Maybe one can take the position that all human life has inherent value to the world, but it's easy to dispute that when antivaxxers are basically bioterrorists spreading death with their very mouths, both by spoken misinformation words AND viral particles. What value is there to any of us spending a single neuron caring about what happens to them when they themselves don't care what happens to the people around them enough to get a vaccine? Why contribute to my daily cognitive exhaustion thinking about or caring about these people when there are people out there like my disabled mother and disabled grandmother that have been heavily affected by COVID despite being fully vaccinated that deserve my actual limited reserve of empathy and effort to care? The fact that antivaxxers die of COVID is just an outcome of their choices, and I don't need to waste a moment caring about that.

Spending energy wishing them dead? Maybe a bit extreme, as anger against circumstances you can't control just causes self-suffering. But it's not something I can't understand. I completely understand where that anger comes from.
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,605
It's just run-of-the-mill utilitarian ethics, which has moral flaws with considering each person with an imbued amount of good or bad based on utility to the greater good. It's not outrageous or "chilling logic," it's just one way to solve the victim-on-the-train-tracks ethical problem, and it's insufficient and inadequate as a greater ethical philosophy.

Having said that, there's no need to feel empathy for these people, as the Medium article succinctly argues. Maybe one can take the position that all human life has inherent value to the world, but it's easy to dispute that when antivaxxers are basically bioterrorists spreading death with their very mouths, both by spoken misinformation words AND viral particles. What value is there to any of us spending a single neuron caring about what happens to them when they themselves don't care what happens to the people around them enough to get a vaccine? Why contribute to my daily cognitive exhaustion thinking about or caring about these people when there are people out there like my disabled mother and disabled grandmother that have been heavily affected by COVID despite being fully vaccinated that deserve my actual limited reserve of empathy and effort to care?
I mean, that's fine. No one said you had to feel sympathy.

I'm arguing against people saying they either *should* die or they feel happy about it.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
User Banned (1 Week): Inflammatory Commentary
I mean, that's fine. No one said you had to feel sympathy.

I'm arguing against people saying they either *should* die or they feel happy about it.
It makes me smile whenever I read about one dying.

At the end of the day, you can't reason with them. The only solution to their idiocy is a huge number of them dying. Every time it happens the needle shifts just the teeniest bit back towards rationality. It's the only way forward.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
Because it simply doesn't make sense. Far fewer people die, have died, and almost certainly will die in sum total than there are anti-vaxxers in the world. So their deaths cannot be saving one life each, on average. It doesn't make sense. And that's assuming literally every single COVID death can be traced back to an anti-vaxxer, which wasn't the case minimum for at least the first ten months of COVID.
I don't understand this suggestion that more people that have died and continue to die are not anti-vaxxers. If we define what anti-vaxxers are loosely, it is the people who refuses to get vaccinated despite how easy and available it is. We are literally having 95+% of people that have died since the vaccine is freely available and will continue to die from COVID are people who refuse to get vaccinated against it. You don't hear too many cases of vaccinated people dying. Sure there are some fringe cases, but that is like 1 out of 100 thousands or 1 per million (for fully vaccinated individuals with moderna or pfizer).
 

Feep

Lead Designer, Iridium Studios
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
4,605
It makes me smile whenever I read about one dying.

At the end of the day, you can't reason with them. The only solution to their idiocy is a huge number of them dying. Every time it happens the needle shifts just the teeniest bit back towards rationality. It's the only way forward.
I mean yeah dude this is pretty fucked, sorry
 

Nothing Loud

Literally Cinderella
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,998
I mean, that's fine. No one said you had to feel sympathy.

I'm arguing against people saying they either *should* die or they feel happy about it.

Maybe we agree.

Feelings are feelings, though, and they naturally happen to us as human minds, so I don't necessarily think that all of the people happy that antivaxxers are dying should be reprimanded for being honest that they themselves are feeling natural relief when one of these bioterrorists go down.

I just think that it should end there. Feel empathy, feel disappointment, feel relief if you need to, but don't unnecessarily spread hate, violence, or cruelty to people. That, in contrast, can easily be argued as ethically ineffective and immoral.

Obviously, no one deserves to die for ignorance and mistakes, especially if there's remorse; if you are progressive and agree that the death penalty is unnecessarily cruel and indignant to human life, the belief in these should be congruent.

But feeling the instinct of relief when one dies because of their terrible actions that hurt others? I don't judge people for that. I do criticize thoughts and actions though, as those can be controlled in response to emotions we naturally have.

I guess that's where I'm landing on this issue right now.

It makes me smile whenever I read about one dying.

At the end of the day, you can't reason with them. The only solution to their idiocy is a huge number of them dying. Every time it happens the needle shifts just the teeniest bit back towards rationality. It's the only way forward.

Yo, even if the only way we get past this crisis is that all the antivaxxers die of COVID, these are NOT the kinds of thoughts you should allow yourself to type out or think out loud. Control yourself and your ethics, please.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
I mean yeah dude this is pretty fucked, sorry
4XbB6HC.gif
 

Darkgran

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,264
Can we get an update OP?

I hope he isn't taking up a bed that someone who has an emergency will need.
 

molnizzle

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
17,695
Yo, even if the only way we get past this crisis is that all the antivaxxers die of COVID, these are NOT the kinds of thoughts you should allow yourself to type out or think out loud. Control yourself and your ethics, please.
I don't see what's so unethical about it. I do agree that the death penalty is unnecessarily cruel and indignant to human life, but this isn't human beings killing each other here. These people did it to themselves.
 
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