• Ever wanted an RSS feed of all your favorite gaming news sites? Go check out our new Gaming Headlines feed! Read more about it here.
  • We have made minor adjustments to how the search bar works on ResetEra. You can read about the changes here.

Deathbysound

Member
Oct 27, 2017
612
"...My great-grandfather, Nwaubani Ogogo Oriaku, was what I prefer to call a businessman, from the Igbo ethnic group of south-eastern Nigeria. He dealt in a number of goods, including tobacco and palm produce. He also sold human beings. "He had agents who captured slaves from different places and brought them to him," my father told me. Nwaubani Ogogo's slaves were sold through the ports of Calabar and Bonny in the south of what is today known as Nigeria. People from ethnic groups along the coast, such as the Efik and Ijaw, usually acted as stevedores for the white merchants and as middlemen for Igbo traders like my great-grandfather. They loaded and offloaded ships and supplied the foreigners with food and other provisions. They negotiated prices for slaves from the hinterlands, then collected royalties from both the sellers and buyers.

About 1.5 million Igbo slaves were shipped across the Atlantic Ocean between the 15th and 19th Centuries. More than 1.5 million Africans were shipped to what was then called the New World - the Americas - through the Calabar port, in the Bight of Bonny, making it one of the largest points of exit during the transatlantic trade.

_113326807_trans-atlantic_slave_trade_640-nc-002.png


The only life they knew

...It would be unfair to judge a 19th Century man by 21st Century principles. Assessing the people of Africa's past by today's standards would compel us to cast the majority of our heroes as villains, denying us the right to fully celebrate anyone who was not influenced by Western ideology. Igbo slave traders like my great-grandfather did not suffer any crisis of social acceptance or legality. They did not need any religious or scientific justifications for their actions. They were simply living the life into which they were raised. That was all they knew."

Slave trade in the 20th Century

...Acclaimed Igbo historian Adiele Afigbo described the slave trade in south-eastern Nigeria which lasted until the late 1940s and early 1950s as one of the best kept secrets of the British colonial administration.

Working with the British

...My great-grandfather was renowned for his business prowess, outstanding boldness, strong leadership, vast influence, immense contributions to society, and advancement of Christianity. The Igbo do not have a culture of erecting monuments to their heroes - otherwise one dedicated to him might have stood somewhere in the Umuahia region today.

"He was respected by everyone around," my father said. "Even the white people respected him."

For the full article,

Source 1: https://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-africa-53444752

Reddit post by Gigamon2014

"...Slavery was a massively contentious issue throughout West Africa. There was no ideological consistency with slavery as some kingdoms and tribes willingly sold slaves whilst others strongly advocated, fought and died pushing against it.

With the development of the trans-Saharan slave trade and the economies of gold in the western Sahel, a number of the major states became organized around the slave trade, including the Ghana Empire, the Mali Empire, and Songhai Empire.[62] However, other communities in West Africa largely resisted the slave trade. The Jola refused to participate in the slave trade up into the end of the seventeenth century, and didn't use slave labor within their own communities until the nineteenth century. The Kru and Baga also fought against the slave trade.[63] The Mossi Kingdoms tried to take over key sites in the trans-Saharan trade and, when these efforts failed, the Mossi became defenders against slave raiding by the powerful states of the western Sahel. The Mossi would eventually enter the slave trade in the 1800s with the Atlantic slave trade being the main market.[62]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Slavery_in_Africa#:~:text=With the development of the,largely resisted the slave trade.

The Kingdom of Nri and the Independent Igbo States (confederation of independently ruled Igbo states) did not practice slavery, and slaves from neighbouring lands would often flee to these kingdoms in order to be set free.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igbo_people_in_the_Atlantic_slave_trade


There is also the fact that the form on indentured servitude of slavery in the region differed massively from the form of chattel slavery practised in the Americas.

Arochukwu, on the other hand, practiced a system of indentured servitude that was remarkably different to chattel slavery in the Americas. Eventually, with Europeans beginning to encroach on Igbo territory, causing the kingdoms to desire weaponry to defend themselves. In order to obtain European goods and weaponry, Arochukwu began to raid villages of the other Igbo kingdoms - primarily those located in the Igbo hinterlands. People would be captured, regardless of gender, social status, or age. Slaves could have been originally farmers, nobility, or even people who had committed petty crimes. [5] These captured slaves would be taken and sold to the British on the coast. Another way people were enslaved was through the divine oracle who resided in the Cave Temple complex. [6] All Igbos practiced divination called Afa, but the Kingdom of Arochukwu was different because it was headed by a divine oracle who was in charge of making decisions for the king. During this time, if someone committed a crime, was in debt, or did something considered an "abomination" (for example, the killing of certain kinds of animals was considered an abomination due to its association with certain deities), they would be taken to the cave complex to face the oracle for sentencing. The oracle, who was also influenced by the British, would sentence these people to slavery, even for small crimes. The victim would be commanded to walk further into the cave so that the spirits could "devour" them, but, in reality, they were taken to an opening on the other side and loaded directly onto a waiting boat. This boat would take them to a slave ship en route to the Americas.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Igbo_people_in_the_Atlantic_slave_trade


Even more on the unique nature of chattel slavery, from National Museums Liverpool.

The English word slave comes from the Middle English sclave which originates in the Old French esclave, which can be found in the Medieval Latin sclavus and this term is related to the Greek sklabos, from sklabenoi, Slavs, of Slavic origin. Now this word sklabenoi is closely linked to the Old Russian Slovene. It is thought that the contemporary word slave is directly related to the Slavic people, many of whom were sold into slavery.

I think that I should point out that Europe also practiced indentureship and serfdom. Neither of these forms of service, one with a time period attached to it, and the other with land attached to it, could be compared to the chattel slavery of Africans.

Serfdom is not the same as slavery. Sometimes this is confused in the minds of the contemporary person. The current usage of the term chattel slavery is not synonymous with serfdom. They have a fundamental difference that brings me closer to my main point.

European serfs were considered to have rights because they were human beings. Enslaved Africans were people who had neither rights nor freedom of movement, and were not paid for their labour because they were seen as 'things'. Aside from food and shelter the enslaver had no responsibility to the enslaved, but would allow the enslaved no space to have responsibility for himself or herself.

Now let us turn the screws a little bit tighter on chattel. One reason I insist on speaking of the enslavement of Africans as chattel slavery rather than slavery is because in the English language it is possible to confuse a certain idea of servitude with slavery. An African who was enslaved had no personal or private rights and was expressly the property of another person to be held, used, or abused as the owner saw fit. Imagine the hell of this predicament and you are on the edge of the nightmare of chattel slavery.

https://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/ideological-origins-of-chattel-slavery-british-world


Very typically British, still trying to somehow make out as if they were somehow unique in their disapproval of slavery beyond the abolition when, in reality, many kingdoms took major issue with the practice during the height of the transatlantic trade. Its even lamer when one learns that it could be argued abolition here had large strategic benefits, much like positive sentiment towards Lincoln's emancipation efforts are tempered by the fact he considered it a move to prevent direct contention with southern states and had intended to have slaves summarily shipped abroad to either Liberia or Australia. I can't exactly say I'm stunned. Never ceases to amaze me how dishonest we have become as a country. Her ancestors were skeezebags, they were considered that then are considered that now. Nigeria has dealt with the same problem for years, selfish assholes with no concept of integrity conspiring with foreign powers to fuck over their neighbours. There is nothing spiritual or traditional about it. Its just typical greed and short sighted human stupidity.

Further reading:

http://ldhi.library.cofc.edu/exhibi...natlanticworld/african_participation_and_resi"

Source 2: https://www.reddit.com/r/unitedkingdom/comments/hzydoh/my_nigerian_greatgrandfather_sold_slaves/

Bonus: My Great-Grandfather, the Nigerian Slave-Trader by Adaobi Tricia Nwaubani on The New Yorker
 
Last edited:

neon/drifter

Shit Shoe Wasp Smasher
Member
Apr 3, 2018
4,076
Being honest here, I got as far as "Resisting Abolition" and man I just... I get the point the author is trying to make but, regardless of slavery being such a norm in your culture, regardless of the difference of the 19th and 21st century...Slavery is just wrong period, and that's not based on the time period from which I'm observing the 19th century. There had to be people from the beginning of slavery that looked at that and knew that it was inherently wrong.

So yeah, I don't think it's so much as judging the past with a modern lens. I think we're judging it with a humane lens that is timeless tbh. Slavery always bad, and who cares if our past "heroes" end up becoming villains if we do look at them with a new light. Times are a-changin' and nobodys legacy is permanent, or in their control after they've passed for that matter.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,722
As a Dutch person I couldn't possibly disagree more with the 'don't judge by current standards' assessment, considering I know for a fact that none of my family was anywhere near the Atlantic slave trade, but I have to accept the branding nonetheless since the history is part of the nation, even if it isn't part of mine directly.

Just because there are reasons for what people did, doesn't mean they did good things. I appreciate the topic btw, even I know Era will mostly ignore it because of the discomfort this brings to everyone involved.
 

geomon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,007
Miami, FL
I wonder what my ancestor(s) from Senegal would say about this article....you know, if they weren't slaves I mean.
 

Aureon

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,819
I judge by the standards of the time, but also by effort put into moving them forward.

This is utter and complete garbage.

Assessing the people of Africa's past by today's standards would compel us to cast the majority of our heroes as villains, denying us the right to fully celebrate anyone who was not influenced by Western ideology.
You can hold up people as heroes without forgetting the dark sides.

"Fully Celebrating" historical figures who more likely than not got a role in the history books through violence and conquest is a weird concept anyway.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
This is so stupid. Slavery is evil, period. Who the fuck cares whether or not someone considers your long dead great grandfather a bad person? Why is she caping so hard lmao?
 

Catshade

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,200
If we can judge the slaves' suffering by today's values, we can judge the slavers' atrocities by today's values.

edit: and if you judge your ancestors' heroic actions by modern standard, you should also judge their repugnant actions by the same standard.
 

VariantX

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,934
Columbia, SC
Enslaving people was evil then, evil now, and it'll be evil in the future.

Evil doesn't change throughout the times, our tolerance and acceptance of it does.
 

papermoon

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,907
Nwaubani Ogogo died sometime in the early 20th Century. He left behind dozens of wives and children. No photographs exist of him but he was said to have been remarkably light-skinned.
Is she bragging about this? Or am I reading this wrong?
 

Famassu

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,186
We don't need hero worship of historic people if that means praising slavers or downplaying atrocities of the past, no matter how different life was back then. If life was so horrible that people needed to enslave their peers to get ahead in life, then maybe let's not look at the (people of the) past with any fondness but celebrate whatever steps forward we have taken since.
 

ibyea

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,164
No to this article, just no. And I don't understand this desire to worship heros. Hero worship is a problem when examining the totality of a person's legacy.
 

Jibreel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
344
Being honest here, I got as far as "Resisting Abolition" and man I just... I get the point the author is trying to make but, regardless of slavery being such a norm in your culture, regardless of the difference of the 19th and 21st century...Slavery is just wrong period, and that's not based on the time period from which I'm observing the 19th century. There had to be people from the beginning of slavery that looked at that and knew that it was inherently wrong.

So yeah, I don't think it's so much as judging the past with a modern lens. I think we're judging it with a humane lens that is timeless tbh. Slavery always bad, and who cares if our past "heroes" end up becoming villains if we do look at them with a new light. Times are a-changin' and nobodys legacy is permanent, or in their control after they've passed for that matter.

I think most people at the time would admit it was not a state that they themselves would ever aspire to be in. Though its quite clear that every society prior to the industrial revolution just accepted it as a reality of life. Its one of the reasons why when anti abolitionists debated abolitionists they were able to appeal to authority referencing the "giants" of Western philosophy because not a single one of them, be it Plato, Aristotle, Augustine or Aquinas, ever preached against slavery.
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
It would be unfair to judge a 19th Century man by 21st Century principles. Assessing the people of Africa's past by today's standards would compel us to cast the majority of our heroes as villains, denying us the right to fully celebrate anyone who was not influenced by Western ideology. Igbo slave traders like my great-grandfather did not suffer any crisis of social acceptance or legality. They did not need any religious or scientific justifications for their actions. They were simply living the life into which they were raised. That was all they knew.

peak moral relativism
 

Convasse

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,832
Atlanta, GA, USA
The natural law dictates that mankind has inalienable rights. The great thinkers in the bronze age understood this. I don't see how you could argue that slavers of any ethnic persuasion should be held to a different standard because of today's woke culture.
 

nampad

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,238
Interesting article, surprised that there was so much intra tribe slave trading (Igbos trading Igbos). I would have thought that that number would have been lower and the enslavement would focus on other (enemy) tribes.

Btw, you just shared the whole article. Let the outlet get some traffic...
 

kilner

Member
Oct 28, 2017
202
Assessing the people of Africa's past by today's standards would compel us to cast the majority of our heroes as villains, denying us the right to fully celebrate anyone who was not influenced by Western ideology.

This person is misinformed or deluding themselves to excuse the actions of their ancestor. There were plenty of African societies that didn't partake in slavery during that time period and prior.
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,573
This person is misinformed or deluding themselves to excuse the actions of their ancestor. There were plenty of African societies that didn't partake in slavery during that time period and prior.
yep. The idea that slavery is morally wrong and disgusting is not something western society came up with, it's literally an idea as old as slavery itself because it turns out the question of "is it ok for us to own other human beings" is not a particularly weird question for people to ask when surrounded by people who are owned.
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
Such an odd take to try and handwave it away as just something that was part of the culture. Plenty of Cultures in Africa at the time and other locations had nothing to do with slavery and would not consider it acceptable. Her lame attempt at an excuse could easily be applied to White Slavers who grew up with slavery existing who as children were gifted their own slaves etc. "Its just the culture"
 

Aaronrules380

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
22,573
I think most people at the time would admit it was not a state that they themselves would ever aspire to be in. Though its quite clear that every society prior to the industrial revolution just accepted it as a reality of life. Its one of the reasons why when anti abolitionists debated abolitionists they were able to appeal to authority referencing the "giants" of Western philosophy because not a single one of them, be it Plato, Aristotle, Augustine or Aquinas, ever preached against slavery.
I mean it shouldn't shock us that famous historical philosophers of antiquity were not anti slavery because a precondition to being one was being a wealthy individual with the time and resources (not to mention training and education) necessary to leave a recorded history. People in power tended to be the ones abusing such systems, so no shit they didn't speak up against shitty systems that benefitted themselves
 

Mona

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
26,151
Such an odd take to try and handwave it away as just something that was part of the culture. Plenty of Cultures in Africa at the time and other locations had nothing to do with slavery and would not consider it acceptable. Her lame attempt at an excuse could easily be applied to White Slavers who grew up with slavery existing who as children were gifted their own slaves etc. "Its just the culture"

i wonder if they extend the same courtesy to white slavers in the west
 

Salty_Josh

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,942
No photographs exist of him but he was said to have been remarkably light-skinned
Looooooooooooooooool
"He was respected by everyone around," my father said. "Even the white people respected him."
No shit he was literally a slave trader
The Igbo do not have a culture of erecting monuments to their heroes - otherwise one dedicated to him might have stood somewhere in the Umuahia region today
And it would be torn down into the dirt where it belongs

Man fuck that writer
 

Kitsunebaby

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,699
Annapolis, Maryland
You know, I'm pretty down with moral relativism. But regardless of norms, it takes a complete lack of empathy to deny a person their autonomy. I'm quite content to shit on your heroes if they purposefully enslaved others. We really shouldn't have heroes anyway.
 

Deleted member 57578

User requested account closure
Banned
Jun 7, 2019
283
I don't see how you could argue that slavers of any ethnic persuasion should be held to a different standard
Agreed, but:
The great thinkers in the bronze age understood this.
Which bronze age thinker wrote anything explicitly supporting the inalienable rights of mankind? I understand "inalienable rights" to mean that individual persons (i.e. not the 'collective') have rights that are not granted and cannot be revoked by laws or rulers.

Actually come to think of it, who would you even call a great thinker of the bronze age?
 

Deleted member 2210

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,366
Fuck her ancestors, and if I find out any of my ancestors were like this man too, then they too can go fuck themselves.
 

Convasse

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,832
Atlanta, GA, USA
Agreed, but:

Which bronze age thinker wrote anything explicitly supporting the inalienable rights of mankind? I understand "inalienable rights" to mean that individual persons (i.e. not the 'collective') have rights that are not granted and cannot be revoked by laws or rulers.

Actually come to think of it, who would you even call a great thinker of the bronze age?
Fair play, sir. I exaggerated unnecessarily. I should have used antiquity instead. I was thinking of philosophizing on the concept of natural law by Aristotle, St. Paul, St. Augustine, as the earliest well-known references.
 

Tuorom

Member
Oct 30, 2017
10,987
" he should not be judged by today's standards or values "

What the hell are you talking about it wasn't that long ago! 1885 is only ~140 years ago hellooooooo, it isn't 900 AD.
In 29 years, WW1 starts.
The Civil Rights movement starts in 69 years.

" can never stop a trade ordained by God "

Sounds like the kinds of assholes we have today.

" My great-grandfather was renowned for his business prowess, outstanding boldness, strong leadership, vast influence, immense contributions to society, and advancement of Christianity "

He is now renowned for his betrayal of neighbours, outstanding sadism, cowardice, greed, selfishness, immense subtractions from society, and making Christianity more of a joke than it already is.
 

GameAddict411

Member
Oct 26, 2017
8,582
I would love to know how someone can justify kidnapping people and selling them as survival of the fittest. Any decent human being will have enough empathy to know it's wrong. Local beliefs and cultures be damned. I don't care what era it is, but that straight up fucked. The rest of the essay made my skin crawl.
 

RDreamer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,114
It's hard to judge people for some things with a modern lens, sure, but slavery isn't one of them. You can't really say, "well, people were fine with it" because the slaves were people not fine with it. You're essentially denying them value and humanity to say that it was just different morals then.
 

Hakimy

Member
Nov 9, 2017
551
Well she is using the same excuse that billions of people use as an excuse for their religion (Christianity, Islam, etc...). When you tell them how their religion didn't prohibit slavery and was fine with it they say "oh people were fine with it back then and it was a normal act" or "it was a business deep rooted in society and cannot be removed" and some will say that while the religion didn't prohibit slavery it encouraged people to free slavery (though it failed if you look at history). So if you ask how can she thinks this way, you should realize that sadly billions think this way too when they try to excuse people they cherish or ideologies they believe in.
 

Kapryov

"This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,166
Australia
Handwaving slavery as "being normal" in the past is doing a great disservice to the heroes that fought against it back then.
 

antonz

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,309
Well she is using the same excuse that billions of people use as an excuse for their religion (Christianity, Islam, etc...). When you tell them how their religion didn't prohibit slavery and was fine with it they say "oh people were fine with it back then and it was a normal act" or "it was a business deep rooted in society and cannot be removed" and some will say that while the religion didn't prohibit slavery it encouraged people to free slavery (though it failed if you look at history). So if you ask how can she thinks this way, you should realize that sadly billions think this way too when they try to excuse people they cherish or ideologies they believe in.
That's the crazy thing about it. She attacks the fact whites used religion etc. as an excuse to justify slavery. She is basically saying Slavery is cool just because it was and people who use excuses were weak
 
OP
OP
Deathbysound

Deathbysound

Member
Oct 27, 2017
612
The thread has been edited and shortened.

I have also included a bonus article for those interested.
 

Mivey

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,916
Pretending that slavery was an accepted and morally neutral fact of life is utter bullshit. Trading with human lives was never something universally seen as a normal, and acceptable thing. Any ancient writing to the contrary is just an oppressor wanting to soothe their conscious. That's not "Western Ideology" it's basic human compassion, across all cultures, ethnicities, religions, creeds and across time too.
 

olag

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
2,106
As an African, fuck this person and fuck their slave trader family.

That's all this whole topic deserves.
 

Skade

Member
Oct 28, 2017
8,900
I mean... Slavery is a thing that took place all over the world in pretty much all civilizations at some point or another since, at least, the beginning of recorded history.

We most likely all had at least one ancestor, distant or not, that was either a slave or a slaver, and we all probably have both.

Beating yourself up because someone in your family took part in slave trading seem a bit ridiculous. It's your ancestor who did wrong, not you.
 
Being honest here, I got as far as "Resisting Abolition" and man I just... I get the point the author is trying to make but, regardless of slavery being such a norm in your culture, regardless of the difference of the 19th and 21st century...Slavery is just wrong period, and that's not based on the time period from which I'm observing the 19th century. There had to be people from the beginning of slavery that looked at that and knew that it was inherently wrong.

So yeah, I don't think it's so much as judging the past with a modern lens. I think we're judging it with a humane lens that is timeless tbh. Slavery always bad, and who cares if our past "heroes" end up becoming villains if we do look at them with a new light. Times are a-changin' and nobodys legacy is permanent, or in their control after they've passed for that matter.
The idea that people just didn't know that slavery was wrong is completely bunk and nothing would make me happier than to see the notion dismantled
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
It was also the beginning of a relationship of mutual respect with the colonialists that led to Nwaubani Ogogo being appointed a paramount chief by the British administration.
As a paramount chief, Nwaubani Ogogo collected taxes on behalf of the British and earned a commission for himself in the process.
He presided over cases in native courts. He supplied labourers for the construction of rail lines. He also willingly donated land for missionaries to build churches and schools.
No photographs exist of him but he was said to have been remarkably light-skinned.

...

"He was respected by everyone around," my father said. "Even the white people respected him."

I WONDER WHY

fuck this uncle tom