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bulbasort

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
383
www.resetera.com

The Rush to Redefine “Defund the Police”

https://newrepublic.com/article/158104/rush-redefine-defund-police Activists started saying "defund the police" to ACTUALLY mean "defund the police". As in, remove funding from them. It's a radical slogan for a radical goal, but this is a moment where radical action is necessary. It might be a...
 

Eidan

AVALANCHE
Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,597
This entire discussion makes me wish the left was more receptive to using dog whistles for political gain.
 

Titik

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,490
Ok let's say I concede that point. Why aren't politicians adopting the ideas in repacking into slogans they find electorally viable? We can say disinvest in the Police or whatever works o don't care as long as the ideas are adopted and supported but that isn't happening. We're handwringing about the phrase being bad and sucking oxygen out of the movement by doing so.
Because language matters in politics.
 

soul creator

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,010
so what term should I use if I do feel as strongly about police departments the way right-wingers feel about planned parenthood
 
Oct 27, 2017
17,973
It's not bad branding. Funding is an actual tangible issue that is coming into play this month, with no federal funding assistance being given to the states. It will be a choice between the schools or the police in many areas. Give it a few weeks.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
This entire discussion makes me wish the left was more receptive to using dog whistles for political gain.
Like I said I'm down. I'm not attached to the phrasing I just want politicians to use whatever dog whistles they can to communicate to me that they support the idea in itself. I'm still waiting on this.
 

Muu

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
1,980
as a statement for a protest I think 'defund the police' is great. Remember from 2010 to 2020 when every politician with a (R) on their name was wanting to get rid of Obamacare? It had momentum, and while actually getting rid of it without replacing it with something would be a dumb move people assumed there was some kind of master plan behind it (there wasn't, but that's a different story).

It's a strong statement, but over the last two weeks the police have only gone to make it seem like a reasonable option.
 

Dehnus

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
1,900
It's clearly defined wedge issue. "Defund the police" is going to be hijacked by the GOP to misrepresent its purpose. It's already happening.
Yup, a black man saying that is a death sentence for whatever cause they wish to champion. And the NAACP simply can't say it without major consequences. That is why we must say it so we can act like a shield for their work.
 

Eidan

AVALANCHE
Avenger
Oct 30, 2017
8,597
No, absolutely not. BLM was also misconstrued when it was introduced but you don't compromise your message. Stick with it. Now BLM is far more accepted and we haven't given an inch.
The movement can stick with it. But for politicians, different phrasing is the best way to keep soft support on their side AND get things done.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
Because language matters in politics.
I think you missed my point. Let my restate. Politicians can adopt the ideas of Defunding the Police with out invoking that exact phrasing. Except what they're doing is saying they don't support the IDEA being communicated by the phrase and were left here hand wringing over whether or not the phrasing is electorally viable to use. The phrase isn't the problem. They can use what ever phrase they want as long as the ideas are adopted. They're politicians it's their job and literal expertise to do this kinda shit. Except that's not happening at all. Nothing is being offered and it's not for a lack of phrasing
 

discotheque

Member
Dec 23, 2019
3,862
I mean look how this is kind of turning into a shitshow. Shouldn't that be proof enough that this slogan doesn't work? Swallow your pride and change it. Jesus.

I don't think changing the slogan is going to happen at this point, the best thing to do is to work on explaining and nuancing it (which fortunately smart people like AOC are already doing).
 

El Bombastico

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
36,102
I don't think changing the slogan is going to happen at this point, the best thing to do is to work on explaining and nuancing it (which fortunately smart people like AOC are already doing).

...But America's full of dumb people, who vote, and who won't listen to the smart people's explanation for variety of reasons.
 

Loud Wrong

Member
Feb 24, 2020
14,481
The politicians can use whatever wording they want as long as they carry the ideals. Why the fuck do the protestors also need to be the politicians marketing team lol
Protesters can say whatever they want. I'm referring to people who get pissed off that politicians are not parroting their misguided slogan.
 

malyse

Community Resetter
Member
Nobody including liberals understand what defund the police means
I guess call me Nobody then, because I sure as hell know what it means.


It means that the police gets less money and everything else gets more.



It means that we stop defunding the arts and school and medicare and social security and start defunding the police.

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It means incredibly lopsided budgets like San Bernadino don't exist in the future.

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I guess my question is: how does anyone not understand what is meant by defund the police?

EZxoRNXWAAAbCEk

EZzey77XgAE_sGB

EZq6liFXsAcEM0x

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EZyIr1bWAAUXPx5


Yeah. Defund the police.
 

discotheque

Member
Dec 23, 2019
3,862
...But America's full of dumb people, who vote, and who won't listen to the smart people's explanation for variety of reasons.
Yeah but the damage is already done on that front. Trying to force a new slogan down everyone's throat isn't going to stop Trump from tweeting "BIDEN WANTS TO DEFUND AND ABOLISH ALL POLICE!!!"
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,569
Protesters can say whatever they want. I'm referring to people who get pissed off that politicians are not parroting their misguided slogan.

It's not misguided. Defund the Police takes 30 seconds of explaination to make sense. All these people are not pissed at politicians simply because they wont say these key words. The politicians are not acknowledging that the system is broken and they need to drastically reduce these world conquest sized budgets and put this money into helping marginalized communities and getting people trained on deescalation and mental health. Reducing police funding is pivitol as well as redefining the role of officers to be something other than assholes bothering minorities. What politicians are saying that the laws and reach that allow the police to exploit these people need to go the fuck away?

What politician is addressing these points specifically? Fine, dont say "Defund the Police". What the fuck of worth are they saying? I would say not much.
 

Deleted member 6230

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Banned
Oct 25, 2017
6,118
Thats a pretty bad comparison. There is no positive benefit to slavery, it is 100 percent wrong. Policing is like 50 percent good/50 percent bad. You still need some form of policing in the world to enforce laws/ facilitate services.
Slavery did have a benefit for slaves masters and other stakeholder in that society. That's why it lasted generations and took a war to end.
 

Royalan

I can say DEI; you can't.
Moderator
Oct 24, 2017
12,098
I don't think changing the slogan is going to happen at this point, the best thing to do is to work on explaining and nuancing it (which fortunately smart people like AOC are already doing).

A more immediate thing we can also do is not attack leaders who choose not to use that specific phrase.

(Not aimed at you specifically, of course.)
 

Forsaken82

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,934
im not surprised people are scared of the term "Defund the Police" because they imagine a world like Robocop where a megacorp like OCP runs law enforcement and public safety while keeping police running on the bare minimum.

I look forward to robots like Ed 209 being the future of law enforcement
 

Dultimate

Member
Oct 27, 2017
652
The messaging is getting out, it's being explain and there is a momentum behind it even without a perfect phrase to go with it.

I understand there is some consternation about defunding but don't act as if whatever slogan/phrase used in it's place is not going to need explaining. It doesn't matter what you label it you will have to convince a large swath of the population that the intent to take/reallocated funds away from the police is a good thing. No. Matter. What.
 

Thatonedice1

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,112
Working on that also.
Except it's not just GOP that doesn't understand what it means, it's everyone. Just shows it's a bad slogan.

Uh this isn't only the GOP. It's a garbage tag line and rightfully causes a shit ton of confusion.

I'm well aware it's not the GOP! Guys thats the point I was making. They always do whatever they want, screw the messaging. While we are busy being concerned about the feelings of the cops that get hurt by people calling them on their shit.

This is literally the same as concern trolling. They are making liberals and progressives bicker among themselves. It's been the GOP and conservative playbook for years now. Why are we always falling for it?????
 
Mar 3, 2019
1,831
Slavery did have a benefit for slaves masters and other stakeholder in that society. That's why it lasted generations and took a war to end.
Would it shock you to learn that the bolded was disputed at one point in time?

No doubt, no arguing there, maybe I worded that wrong. Some sort of policing element has to exist in the world, while slavery doesn't have to exist as you can see once it was abolished, the world kept going. I guess it just doesn't sit right with me to equate "abolishing police" with abolishing slavery, just feels like it belittles how fucked up slavery was.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,118
No doubt, no arguing there, maybe I worded that wrong. Some sort of policing element has to exist in the world, while slavery doesn't have to exist as you can see once it was abolished, the world kept going. I guess it just doesn't sit right with me to equate "abolishing police" with abolishing slavery, just feels like it belittles how fucked up slavery was.
I agree that we need an institution in society that solves crimes and cases as well as some form of community security. The current police isn't that. In fact they are spectacularly bad at the aforementioned things
 

Thatonedice1

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,112
Working on that also.
Thats a pretty bad comparison. There is no positive benefit to slavery, it is 100 percent wrong. Policing is like 50 percent good/50 percent bad. You still need some form of policing in the world to enforce laws/ facilitate services.

This is somehow the opposite of Pete Buttigieg saying "People that did slavery didn't know it was wrong" and somehow just as bad. Like you guys know people were arguing the "positives" about slavery at the time right? That's why it took a fucking war to end it. Some of you guys are so afraid of being to "radical" that you prefer to do nothing instead of something it feels like.
 

Fulminator

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,208
defund the police is a tag line that people are already behind and is fairly easy to understand

the problem isn't with the messaging, the problem is that people don't necessarily understand or care what is wrong with the current police institution. Change the tag line all you want, but you will still see many people who say they don't understand because they don't understand how large and systemic the problem is, or they just don't agree with the messaging at all. Any tag line you come up with is going to be heavily scrutinized, but diluting it by saying 'rebuild' or 'reform' or whatever, is only going to make it easier for politicians and the like to skirt around making actual systemic changes that provide real results.
 

UberTag

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
15,474
Kitchener, ON
out of curiosity, what is the opposite of "defund the police"?
Probably what Joe Biden said yesterday about how police unions really want to reform themselves and should be given more money to do that (i.e. this money will be magically spent to ensure cops can remain local to the people they police instead of on bribes and military equipment).

defund the police is a tag line that people are already behind and is fairly easy to understand

the problem isn't with the messaging, the problem is that people don't necessarily understand or care what is wrong with the current police institution. Change the tag line all you want, but you will still see many people who say they don't understand because they don't understand how large and systemic the problem is, or they just don't agree with the messaging at all. Any tag line you come up with is going to be heavily scrutinized, but diluting it by saying 'rebuild' or 'reform' or whatever, is only going to make it easier for politicians and the like to skirt around making actual systemic changes that provide real results.
This poster gets it.
 

Shibi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
383
Defund has a distinct and well known political meaning. People aren't going to stick around to hear a new definition when they know what "Defund X" generally means. It's counterproductive to the movement and should be abandoned.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
Reform the police is a better way to put it and it can include defunding them. Defund is too hard to explain to dumb folks whereas reform doesn't sound as scary.
 

Zornack

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,134
defund the police is a tag line that people are already behind and is fairly easy to understand

the problem isn't with the messaging, the problem is that people don't necessarily understand or care what is wrong with the current police institution. Change the tag line all you want, but you will still see many people who say they don't understand because they don't understand how large and systemic the problem is, or they just don't agree with the messaging at all. Any tag line you come up with is going to be heavily scrutinized, but diluting it by saying 'rebuild' or 'reform' or whatever, is only going to make it easier for politicians and the like to skirt around making actual systemic changes that provide real results.

Demilitarize didn't seem to have this problem. I don't understand the need to defend this bad slogan. It's a call for something other than the language being used. It's bad.
 
Oct 26, 2017
17,448
Defund the police is the worst way of putting it if you actually want effective legislation to be passed, it can be weaponized so easily against the cause. Demilitarize, reappropriate funds, and invest in community policing are three much more effective points.
 

Sixfortyfive

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
4,615
Atlanta
A more immediate thing we can also do is not attack leaders who choose not to use that specific phrase.
That's fine. People can say what they want to push forward an agenda in whatever way they feel is most effective.

But I don't for a second believe that this argument is only about the messaging. It's extremely difficult for me to believe that this is just a messaging problem and not representative of actual resistance to substantial reform at its very core. There is way too much goodwill afforded to a political class that frankly hasn't earned it. Pleas from people asking us to acknowledge that "you gotta play chess not checkers" when there's precious little evidence that anyone is actually interested in "playing chess" in the first place.

Democratic-majority city councils are still, at this very moment, forking over even more money to their police departments hand-over-fist.

And the best that some Democratic politicians can muster are proposed laws... against things that are already illegal and which the police just ignore anyway.

I for one would really like to hear less consternation over optics and more actual, concrete progress. I don't care how it's dressed up.

Whining over the messaging just comes across to me as an excuse to cover-up and excuse the inevitable failings and shortsightedness of our supposed leaders. I'm already mentally bracing myself for this song and dance to repeat during the next round of mass riots in the next presidential administration.
 

FliX

Master of the Reality Stone
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
9,914
Metro Detroit
I'm sorry but trying to compare black lives matter to defund the policy is asinine. Did republicans try and twist BLM? Sure but at least it actually makes sense and people understand it. Nobody including liberals understand what defund the police means.
John Oliver succinctly stating what defund the police means it's really not that hard.


People understand what Black Lives Matters means, they can if they want to understand what Defund the Police means.
To think the GOP would not spin the same yarns about "restructure public safety" seems naive to me at best.
 

Deleted member 4346

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
8,976
We need better leadership in our communities. It's very obvious at this point. That's my takeaway from the last few years. The people in the streets are facing a crisis and our leadership is cowardly and co-opted, not equal to the magnitude of events in the world today.