Stixitnu

Self-requested ban
Banned
Apr 9, 2018
1,079
Think we have known they crunch hard for a while now. If they're being compensated for their long hours I don't see the issue here or at any studio. Long hours are needed to meet deadlines and let's not pretend like these careers don't make REALLY good money. I may come off like I'm a dick but I can't bring myself to care about employee's who willingly applied there and knew about the crunch going in.
 
Mar 29, 2018
7,078
That's what it takes to deliver top-quality games in those 3-ish year dev cycles. The problem is the health decline and eventual culture damage it seems to cause across studios. You always see high-profile members leave over time and it's clearly because their company don't respect their well being and chance to lead a life outside of work and exploits their sense for quality and talent IMO.
Not just high profile talent. The minute anyone has done a few years at studios like this they tend to leave the entire industry. The sector is hemorrhaging talent.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
Think we have known they crunch hard for a while now. If they're being compensated for their long hours I don't see the issue here or at any studio. Long hours are needed to meet deadlines and let's not pretend like these careers don't make REALLY good money. I may come off like I'm a dick but I can't bring myself to care about employee's who willingly applied there and knew about the crunch going in.
24. HOUR. WORK. DAY.

If you don't see the issue here then yeah you're a dick.

Also victim blaming on top of it.
 

Spedfrom

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,155
Naughty Dog is an incredible dev and it's telling that its workers go into the company knowing they'll have these crazy months and are still ok with it. But it's not healthy in the long run and it is not sustainable for the industry as a whole.

Unionizing is essential! And gaming business owners need to find other strategies to get their product done without relying on exhausting work schedules.
 

bear force one

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
4,305
Orlando
Disappointing. Thankfully most of their games don't appeal to me, so I just have to skip out on buying Last of Us 2 or buy used down the road or something...
The scary part is that you'd have to pretty much do that for most big titles as the culture is prevalent.

Unfortunately gamers have shown that boycotts aren't effective. This needs to be taken down systemically.
 

Garrett 2U

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,511
Think we have known they crunch hard for a while now. If they're being compensated for their long hours I don't see the issue here or at any studio. Long hours are needed to meet deadlines and let's not pretend like these careers don't make REALLY good money. I may come off like I'm a dick but I can't bring myself to care about employee's who willingly applied there and knew about the crunch going in.

No issue with 24 hour work day or no days off?
 

DontHateTheBacon

Unshakable Resolve
Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,843
At what point will people realize this story seems to be like 80% of all AAA studios? I'm not sure what to feel after reading this story for the umpteenth time, other than I wish AAA studios were better than they are about this stuff.

But most people don't really seem to care and don't want the quality of their games affected, which sucks.
 

Sheepinator

Member
Jul 25, 2018
28,187
So you think their lying?
What appeared to be a developer already commented on that before, that it's possible say the day of submission, which is a very critical time, and that's about it. Even in the OP it references "some" days total out of the entire project cycle. And once the game is done, they probably get some time to recharge. They might be in the office for 8 hour days while taking long lunches and playing other games, until the workload picks up again for the next game. Maybe they get some additional PTO to take around that time. A game development work cycle tends to start light, plateau during regular production with small peaks for milestones, then a big peak closer to release.
 

collige

Member
Oct 31, 2017
12,772
Think we have known they crunch hard for a while now. If they're being compensated for their long hours I don't see the issue here or at any studio.
They aren't, most game developers are salaried.

Long hours are needed to meet deadlines
They aren't needed long term, it's been shown pretty conclusively that extended crunch is actually bad for productivity
and let's not pretend like these careers don't make REALLY good money.
They don't compared to other areas of software development.
 

tutomos

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,612
I think for those of us who hold Naughty Dog to a high regard must also hold them accountable to the highest standard on this issue.
 

JaseMath

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,565
Denver, CO
When shooting, you have really strict union shit that mandates how many hours you can keep people. It's a lot different when it comes to meeting deadlines in pre and post production though, where there is a fuckton of crunch. I'm pretty confident that nothing is as bad as VFX studios though, those are a fucking nightmare from what I hear.
They are. I've had two friends who have both suffered major bouts of depression because of it. One tried to kill himself.
 

Memento

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
8,129
Imagine if they didnt internally delayed TLOU2 from September 2019 to February 2020 (supposedly)? They would kill themselves
 

J-Skee

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,209
It's so weird to me that this is kind of the trend with Sony's first party studios such as Naughty Dog & Santa Monica Studios, but then you have Media Molecule that says "we don't crunch, that's so 90s".
 
Oct 27, 2017
1,402
24 hour workday!? I shut down mentally after 4-5 hours of work, I can't see how working that long is productive. I'll never be able to relate to workaholics; then they make it worse for everyone else when leadership and managers get pissy that you won't subject yourself to that nonsense.
 

CatAssTrophy

Member
Dec 4, 2017
7,732
Texas
The internal struggle I've always had with these types of stories is that I can't tell if it's something the workers are doing of their own volition, or if they are being made to do it. "Peer pressure" is a pretty wide term and can mean different things depending on the situation.

If I'm at a house part and I'm getting ready to leave, but my buds are telling me "oh don't be a wuss the football game is almost over and our team is winning! you can sleep when you're dead! etc!" I would consider that as "peer pressure".

If I'm in the same situation but I see that there's 20 minutes left on the clock and my team is winning and I really want to see them finish the game because I would miss that moment during my 30 minute drive, and decide it's worth it to stay out a little later that night, I wouldn't consider that peer pressure. Even if my buddies aren't shaming me for leaving, and are instead like "okay drive safe, we're gonna stay so we can watch the end of the game".

I think that's what was meant by the person quoted in the OP saying it's a gray area. I can see how you could be on a team working on a specific thing and have a lot of momentum, and feel like if you just stay a LITTLE longer you'll get over that hump and can feel the relief of finishing that task. That's not to say that's a GOOD or HEALTHY work ethic/mindset/whatever but just that it's something that can happen. So if we *ASSume* that the folks at ND are just working long hours because of THAT, then my question is what could/should ND do about it? If workers are working long hours without being told to or shamed about it, should ND do anything about it? If so, should they make people leave? Would some of them complain that they were getting OT for their work and being forced to go home and thus not get extra money they may need? I'm just very fuzzy on all of this and would really like it if devs themselves could clarify what these situations are like. (I have not yet read Schrier's book)

If a company is coercing/forcing/mandating/enforcing their workers to work more than their standard 40 hours I am absolutely not okay with that, and have worked in some environments that crossed that line in some occasions. If a company allows it's workers to basically set their own hours and work as much as they feel they need to get satisfaction in their work, I am okay with that, but worry about some folks not "knowing when to stop" and allowing their health to suffer. In those cases some protections need to be put in place. Maybe incentives for not going over X amount of hours per week? (allowing for SOME overtime but not a lot) When it comes to peer pressure though I don't have enough management experience to know how to tackle it.

EDIT: I also forgot to mention deadlines- I don't think deadlines are more important than the health/sanity of workers. Period. Games get pushed back all the time, it's okay to me as a consumer to play something later if it means those that made the game happen can see their families and not get put on anxiety meds.
 
Oct 26, 2017
9,859
I have a solution: hire more people...? I'm pretty sure a big and profitable studio like ND can handle this.

Hiring more people is not going to fix the culture. ND is the biggest Sony studio, they do a lot of outsourcing and they dont have budget problems. All Rockstar studios worked on RDR2 and more than 3k people worked on the game but you can ber your ass they crunched on RDR2 too.
 

mael

Avenger
Nov 3, 2017
17,166
I have a solution: hire more people...? I'm pretty sure a big and profitable studio like ND can handle this.
It's probably similar to the GameFreak situation,
you can't solve a scheduling issue by just adding more bodies to the workflow.
It can even prove to be damaging to the project to have way more people working on it, it's why even in the biggest companies you tend to have small teams working on some projects.
And if you add more bodies you can just crunch more people because that's how the management at the studio works.
 

Hucast

alt account
Banned
Mar 25, 2019
3,598
If I had to work more than 10 hours per day multiple times I would quit my job asap.
It's insecurity that keeps people from standing up for themselves. Have seen this plenty in working places and it always surprises me how many people lack awareness of how much power they have and just settle down. But naughty dog sounds like a very rough working place so they might be scared with losing their jobs. This is why unionizing is the answer...
 

1.21Gigawatts

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,278
Munich
Long hours are needed to meet deadlines

If long hours are needed to meet deadlines the project was estimated wrongly. Thats a failure of project management.
Deadlines should be set in a way that regular working hours suffice to make it in time.
And if that doesn't work the deadline should be moved.
And if moving the deadline isn't possible for some kind of economic reasons then the system is set up the wrong way.

Why should humans adapt to an economic logic and not the other way around?
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Most of era were up in arms about RDR2 crunch, so for the sake of consistency I hope yall equally outraged about ND crunch.

By law aren't people who use a screen require breaks every 2hours?
Because of eye strain and stuff.
They should at least get 1. 5hr break to be had any way they like
 

HMD

Member
Oct 26, 2017
3,301
I remember a company I interned at had the same peer pressure problem. One of the higher ups was shouting at a fresh employee for not doing as much work as his other colleague, who was staying at work till 10pm almost every other day.

Funny thing is that same guy would not allow us interns to stay past 6pm.

I was even offered a job there after my internship but I noped right out of there.
 

Gradon

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,559
UK
Think we have known they crunch hard for a while now. If they're being compensated for their long hours I don't see the issue here or at any studio. Long hours are needed to meet deadlines and let's not pretend like these careers don't make REALLY good money. I may come off like I'm a dick but I can't bring myself to care about employee's who willingly applied there and knew about the crunch going in.

QA are lucky if they make anything above minimum wage, and they get the brunt of crunch.

So yeah you're just a victim blaming dick.
 

SPRidley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,306
I have a friend at a game dev that is doing auto crunch on himself, no one is pressuring him at the company and he is the only one do in it (its a small one) but he is doing it because he feels he have to finish all of his animation work this month there before having a more normal schedule. Its just his work ethic because i know him well and now absolutely nobody is forcing him to do this but himself, and at the same time he is also no forcing anyone to follow his steps.

Not tryibg to defend crunch here (much less naughty dog because im not that big of a fan of them either), as someone that has had crunch it takes life out of you, but sometimes crunch is more of grey tones than Era thinks
 

perfectchaos007

It's Happening
Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,336
Texas
As an hourly employee I haven't experienced this. It's funny how when you're salary you're expected to work long days/nights but if you're hourly they make sure you go home after your 8 hour day so they don't have to pay you overtime. Maybe it's time for unions in other industries to make their employees hourly. That would quickly put an end to crunch culture
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,910
Las Vegas
I just came across this recently, but at least it's not bad as shit that's going on at From Software.
Same salary as a janitor (30k) and 15 hour work days on average during non-crunch periods. Imagine how bad crunch must be.


Ultimately a lot of improvement needs to happen in a lot of places.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Speaking of crunch, there are loads of jobs which require crunch.

Video game makers are paid very well, so there extra work is rewarded, they get paid more then cooks, nurses, firemen etc, I'm sure some of them "crunch" just as much as video game makers, but they get paid less.
 

AtomicShroom

Tools & Automation
Verified
Oct 28, 2017
3,103
Surely someone cannot work solidly for 24 hours.

If it were me I'd spend entire hours at a time slacking off, going for food, having breaks. When will companies learn that time spent and amount of quality time spent are not the same thing.

I get more work done in a solid, dedicated 8 hours than in 12 hours where I feel tired and phase in and out of concentration

Not solidly, no. But when all was required of us was to do walkthroughs of a game we already knew by heart inside out, then yeah I can do that for 24h.
 

Wiped

Banned
Nov 2, 2017
2,096
Speaking of crunch, there are loads of jobs which require crunch.

Video game makers are paid very well, so there extra work is rewarded, they get paid more then cooks, nurses, firemen etc, I'm sure some of them "crunch" just as much as video game makers, but they get paid less.

This is a very good point.

As a trainee journalist on a small town paper I crunched every week for hours on end. Monday and Tuesday you would work 8am to 10pm truing to finish all your work.

I have friends now who are nurses who work wel over hours on an almost daily basis and they get paid much less than games devs.
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
I just came across this recently, but at least it's not bad as shit that's going on at From Software.
Same salary as a janitor (30k) and 15 hour work days on average during non-crunch periods. Imagine how bad crunch must be.


Ultimately a lot of improvement needs to happen in a lot of places.
wait., I remember Miyazaki was interviewed about working conditions and he was full of praise . That dont sound right?
 

Edgar

User requested ban
Banned
Oct 29, 2017
7,180
Well I guess that totally makes it ok then./s
its not that its ok, its just not unique to video games . People work their ass off in real life to pay the bills and have a little bit of relaxation. Im not gonna blame those people that they dont care about the conditions of people behind their video games
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
Well I guess that totally makes it ok then./s

I just think it's like "welcome to the world"

If people agree to do an average of 70hrs a week, then that's there choice, no one is forcing them to. I'm sure theres people who are willing and happy to do 80hr weeks.

It's kinda of like saying "being a cook is hard, the kitchen is 40°c, all the lifting is tiring, the company is at fault"
 

JayWood2010

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,120
"The truth [is] they don't tell you that you have to work X amount of hours," the developer said. "But you have to get your work done. And the amount of work is just impossible for any person. It is just way too much. And if you don't hit the goals you will be fired. So I guess you don't have much of a choice."

This type of stuff is just terrible, and i dont think its good for people in the community to defend this type of stuff. I dont care if Naughty Dog is first party or not, you shouldnt defend it. The game industry needs to make some changes. Do i think we should boycott developers that do this? No, because that is disregarding all their hard work, but i do think as a community we should be actively trying to bring awareness over issues like this.
 

Hucast

alt account
Banned
Mar 25, 2019
3,598
I just think it's like "welcome to the world"

If people agree to do an average of 70hrs a week, then that's there choice, no one is forcing them to. I'm sure theres people who are willing and happy to do 80hr weeks.

It's kinda of like saying "being a cook is hard, the kitchen is 40°c, all the lifting is tiring, the company is at fault"
This just reads as "this is life so suck it up". Pretty good stance there bro
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,862
Most of era were up in arms about RDR2 crunch, so for the sake of consistency I hope yall equally outraged about ND crunch.

By law aren't people who use a screen require breaks every 2hours?
Because of eye strain and stuff.

They should at least get 1. 5hr break to be had any way they like
Usually it's 1h and 45 mins, it's strain and focus loss combined. That's why it's mandatory to get up and take a break at my place after 2h max.
 

Gold Arsene

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
30,757
I just think it's like "welcome to the world"

If people agree to do an average of 70hrs a week, then that's there choice, no one is forcing them to. I'm sure theres people who are willing and happy to do 80hr weeks.

It's kinda of like saying "being a cook is hard, the kitchen is 40°c, all the lifting is tiring, the company is at fault"
What utter callous bullshit.

First off we know that these people are being pressured to do this.

Second just because shits bad doesn't mean it has to be that way. Guess we shouldn't ask for improvements in medicine since we were so used to leaches.

Finally, and I can't stress this enough, 24 hour work day.


Fuck out of here with your "welcome to the world" horseshit. Just say you don't care about people's working conditions as long as you get your games.
 

Moebius

Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,439
This is why I didn't get into the game industry. It doesn't make sense. Why would I choose to work 12-24 hours a day?
 

EssCee

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,130
Curious as to what industries people ITT work in - this is not a problem solely with video game developers

If anyone has ever worked for an accounting firm and been in their tax or assurance practice then they're VERY familiar with these type of work hours. During "busy season", which occurs every year, associates and seniors can work up to 60-80 hours a week for months at a time. Unfortunately it's the nature of the business and line of work you're in but it's almost impossible to minimize the hours in a more manageable schedule/timeframe. These employees are typically rewarded by having very relaxing summer hours/longer vacation time. Same as the video game industry when they've released a game.

Also, if it's not mandated from the top and their employees genuinely want to put in the extra time and effort into creating something special, then don't blame ND or that particular employee for doing so.
 
Feb 10, 2018
17,534
This just reads as "this is life so suck it up". Pretty good stance there bro

No it does not.
What I'm saying is true.
There are always going to be Somone who wants something more and is willing to work for it.
And people agree to these work circumstances.
The most sensible thing is to look closely at the contract, very closely, if you don't like it, negotiate or look for another position, the thing is there are people who are willing to do accept these "crunch" allowing contracts.

The average wage for a videogame programmer is $83,484 a year.
 

Hucast

alt account
Banned
Mar 25, 2019
3,598
Curious as to what industries people ITT work in - this is not a problem solely with video game developers

If anyone has ever worked for an accounting firm and been in their tax or assurance practice then they're VERY familiar with these type of work hours. During "busy season", which occurs every year, associates and seniors can work up to 60-80 hours a week for months at a time. Unfortunately it's the nature of the business and line of work you're in but it's almost impossible to minimize the hours in a more manageable schedule/timeframe. These employees are typically rewarded by having very relaxing summer hours/longer vacation time. Same as the video game industry when they've released a game.

Also, if it's not mandated from the top and their employees genuinely want to put in the extra time and effort into creating something special, then don't blame ND or that particular employee for doing so.
Dude have you even read the article? It's been quoted through the whole thread. Nothing about the quotes says that they genuinly want it