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No Rest for the Wicked dev defends early access, says Dark Souls would've benefitted

Dyno

Dyno

AVALANCHE
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,377
Yeah no, the only result of EA in Dark Souls would be me finishing the portion of the game I have access to and then never coming back as I got bored of waiting for it to be finished. I've not even got a problem with EA, but it only really works in either MP focused games or more open ended games like survival/crafting.

And even then one of my favorite series, Subnautica, very almost lost me in the EA period and I didn't return until years after the final release when the sequel was almost finished too.
 
cowbanana

cowbanana

Member
Feb 2, 2018
13,864
a Socialist Utopia
RaspberryRhythm said:
this is so odd, because i powered through and thoroughly enjoyed elden ring from minute 1 through to the end of my first 100% and like 150~ hours

but I couldn't get through more than like 20 minutes of no rest for the wicked because of how shockingly poor it feels to play, but iirc you're really enjoying it?

must be some really different calibrations from person to person i guess in terms of what is acceptable for performance and where the line is drawn of not even bothering etc.

interesting to think about
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I had a 3070 Ti when Elden Ring launched and it was a stuttering mess. Traversal stutters, shader stutters, massive hitches when fighting the first, big mounted knight. After a month of patches the game was simply buttery smooth for me with no further issues.

Now I have a 4070 Ti Super and No Rest for the Wicked is very playable at 2560 x 1600 on "Quality" with a bit of adaptive res scaling. There's only a minor hitch here and there. But I can see it being... troublesome on something like my old 8 GB 3070 Ti. It's early access, I expect things to improve as it nears 1.0 in the future. Optimization happens late in development.

The difference between these games is that Elden Ring launched as a "finished" product. No Rest for the Wicked is an early access title.
 
00Quan[T]

00Quan[T]

Banned
May 12, 2022
2,990
To each their onw my guy. Stop trying to normalize what works for you like it works for everyone.
 
Unfolded

Unfolded

Member
Jun 27, 2023
984
its early access, why people want games on early access be feature complete?

I buy a lot of games on early access and I know they are not feature complete or has good performance but its a way to support devs, its like these kickstart campaign, but you get to play the game before its released.

gamers like to complain about anything.
 
headspawn

headspawn

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,629
calibos said:
They are not wrong, but maybe just use a positive one like Baldurs Gate 3. No need take a shot at one of the other greatest games of all time.
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I think that's fair. Hell, they could've used Ori 1 as an example, considering they made so many changes post launch that they released a completely separate SKU 'Definitive Edition'.
 
Doctor Doggo

Doctor Doggo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,386
This dude wishes his games were half as good. You're comparing your shit to generational games. Fuck out of here
 
calibos

calibos

Member
Dec 13, 2017
2,015
headspawn said:
I think that's fair. Hell, they could've used Ori 1 as an example, considering they made so many changes post launch that they released a completely separate SKU 'Definitive Edition'.
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Very true! I honestly don't think it was meant to be an shot at Dark Souls or anything either. I just think that it comes off that way...
 
Derbel McDillet

Derbel McDillet

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Nov 23, 2022
15,467
Kyuuji said:
That's fine, I just wanted to highlight the context for why it does have a cumulative effect for others.
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Just gonna point out that you glossed over the first half of my post and didn't get called "not worth engaging with" by someone else for it.

See how things are treated differently depending on the messenger.
 
Kyuuji

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,458
Derbel McDillet said:
Just gonna point out that you glossed over the first half of my post and didn't get called "not worth engaging with" by someone else for it.

See how things are treated differently depending on the messenger.
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I didn't gloss over it I'd just already answered it in my earlier post. Again though, it's cool, I was giving the context for why others do see his actions as cumulative and how this feels like another link in a long chain of them. You feel different, no one is mad, it's fine.
 
Slaythe

Slaythe

The Wise Ones
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,903
Can you imagine dark souls coming out and there's already 5000 guides, everybody knows how everything works, the meta, etc...


Way to completely ruin what made the game and its discovery special.
 
oakenhild

oakenhild

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,918
calibos said:
Very true! I honestly don't think it was meant to be an shot at Dark Souls or anything either. I just think that it comes off that way...
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Yea, reading his entire statement, he was just using it as an example of how difficult it can be to make changes post-release. Early access changes a lot in how a game is developed and perceived by the people playing the games as well as the publisher of the game.

Zukkoyaki said:
My man kicked the From Cult hornet's nest
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LOL, so true.
 
Strittles

Strittles

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,777
He managed to take a fairly reasonable, lukewarm opinion and defended it in such a terrible way.
 
Mr Delabee

Mr Delabee

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,165
UK
I just hope the current staff aren't working themselves to death for these dudes. The game has had 4 patches out in under a week, two of which launched on a weekend.
New Glassdoor reviews for Moon are still shocking and it seems nothing has changed.
 
fourfourfun

fourfourfun

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,715
England
Not sure comparing to the universally praised Dark Souls 1 is the right hill to die on here, especially since that praise came despite things like Blighttown performance, certain features (covenants) being a bit too obtuse and the odd janky section. One of those games where, actually, the vision and bravery to try something actually endeared people to the product.

Hell, OG FFVII really had the aura of "we're learning our new hardware" about it and that terrible translation, but still that resonated as a GOAT.
 
The_Noobiablos

The_Noobiablos

Member
May 24, 2021
1,426
On the one hand...yeah. Like I'm not going to say Dark Souls wouldn't have benefited from it.

EDIT: Eh, reading again, it's not as bad sounding as I initially read it. Honestly, I've been way harsher with some of the stuff I've said about certain aspects of FS's games (still my favorite shit ever, but I'll put Malenia on blast any day).
 
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JorSneezy

JorSneezy

Member
Oct 17, 2019
407
Yeah, this guy is a douche. He also defended his studio's crunch in an egotistical ways. So him taking random shots at Dark Souls, a game that helped create an entirely new genre, is not that surprising.
 
AstralSphere

AstralSphere

Member
Feb 10, 2021
9,171
The irony of defending something which is used to support the industry by somebody who has a history of openly not supporting other developers, and in said defence takes a shot at another developer.
 
Mukrab

Mukrab

Member
Apr 19, 2020
7,599
ozumas said:
I just think the Early Access model, the vast majority of times, is paying for being a tester and not getting a polished product.
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And there is nothing wrong with that. Its not misleading. You know what you're paying for. Dont want to be a glorified beta tester, wait for full release.
 
Xtortion

Xtortion

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,661
United States
Mukrab said:
And there is nothing wrong with that. Its not misleading. You know what you're paying for. Dont want to be a glorified beta tester, wait for full release.
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If it's a game you know you're interested in, you can also pick up the early access version for a reduced price and you'll have it when 1.0 drops. It seems like a good way for devs to get some cash flowing in without having to ship a final product.
 
iksenpets

iksenpets

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,526
Dallas, TX
Early access makes perfect sense for a game pushing a lot of systems unfamiliar to the dev, and initial poor performance makes sense — most early access games aren't graphics tech showpieces in the way this one is — but that Dark Souls line immediately makes you sound like you're arguing more from delusional hubris than any actual thought out plan
 
construct

construct

Saw the truth behind the copied door
Member
Jun 5, 2020
8,030
東京
weird, it's kind of like each of his moments of being a jerk are not living in a vacuum and if you look at the context as a whole it's easy to paint him as a jerk
 

Atom

Member
Jul 25, 2021
11,591
My guy I'm sure Fromsoft was aware of the issues with the second half of the game.

It seems like a weird strat to try and market a game to a demographic by tearing down probably the most beloved games for that demographic.
 
ABK281

ABK281

Member
Apr 5, 2018
3,021
Even Lost Izalith is more enjoyable than the portion of this game I played before refunding. But hey, hopefully the early access helps that!
 
Mukrab

Mukrab

Member
Apr 19, 2020
7,599
Xtortion said:
If it's a game you know you're interested in, you can also pick up the early access version for a reduced price and you'll have it when 1.0 drops. It seems like a good way for devs to get some cash flowing in without having to ship a final product.
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Yeah i love early access. I wouldnt personally buy a single player game in early access. I dont see the appeal for those types of games, but clearly it worked for baldurs gate 3 so..

and by single player i mean campaigns, for replayable games like roguelikes, strategy games etc i love it too.
 
-Tetsuo-

-Tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,643
Dyno said:
Yeah no, the only result of EA in Dark Souls would be me finishing the portion of the game I have access to and then never coming back as I got bored of waiting for it to be finished. I've not even got a problem with EA, but it only really works in either MP focused games or more open ended games like survival/crafting.

And even then one of my favorite series, Subnautica, very almost lost me in the EA period and I didn't return until years after the final release when the sequel was almost finished too.
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It worked incredibly well for Baldur's Gate 3. Dark Souls absolutely could have used an EA period, most games would benefit probably.
 
JJD

JJD

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,520
Mifec said:
He used to cope about Hollow Knight a lot.
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Not only that but he trolled Bloodborne fans as well lol, even here I think.

He is an asshole, and we have no way of knowing how Dark Souls would have fared in early access. Considering when it came out it's a silly thing to say specially when you consider DS1 is better and more influential than anything Moon has done.

I gotta say that their decision to go through EA with No Rest For The Wicked was a great one. I'm still a bit mixed on the game but I can see the potential and the speed they have been pumping out patches is absolutely amazing. It's been really impressive.

It's going to be really interesting to see how the game evolves, how feedback from players change it and how far from the original vision it becomes.

Seems like they are already working on some pretty significant changes to the game's systems and it's going to be really cool how future content will be influenced by the community.

I hope in the end they do a good post mortem talking about all of this. It's super interesting.

And even if my first impression wasn't that positive I am super optimistic the game will turn out well when I look at how they are being active in EA. I think it even has a chance to turn out into something special.
 
Dyno

Dyno

AVALANCHE
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,377
-Tetsuo- said:
It worked incredibly well for Baldur's Gate 3. Dark Souls absolutely could have used an EA period, most games would benefit probably.
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Tbh I forgot BG3 even had one. But in all honesty it does push me away in some game types and BG3 is one I'd be better passing with EA on. I'm not even really sure how to categorise it but I guess some games I consider a one and done kind of thing where I'd really only enjoy playing them in their complete form. I've bought a lot of EA games over the years and the amount I've played at their 1.0 or beyond can be counted on one hand.

It's a personal thing for sure, but I guess they often give me the sense I got my fill from what little they offer at the time and only a few real standouts really stick in my memory as something to return to, even then it sometimes requires seeing it mentioned elsewhere to jog my memory.
 
Manatron

Manatron

Member
Feb 6, 2018
592
Mifec said:
He used to cope about Hollow Knight a lot.
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Yeah, I remember this as well. He would post on another forum in the Hollow Knight thread talking about how he thought Ori was doing things so much better and didn't understand the praise.

it just seems like the guy is not capable of being cool with other developers. Sucks to see
 
-Tetsuo-

-Tetsuo-

Unlimited Capacity
Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,643
Dyno said:
Tbh I forgot BG3 even had one. But in all honesty it does push me away in some game types and BG3 is one I'd be better passing with EA on. I'm not even really sure how to categorise it but I guess some games I consider a one and done kind of thing where I'd really only enjoy playing them in their complete form. I've bought a lot of EA games over the years and the amount I've played at their 1.0 or beyond can be counted on one hand.

It's a personal thing for sure, but I guess they often give me the sense I got my fill from what little they offer at the time and only a few real standouts really stick in my memory as something to return to, even then it sometimes requires seeing it mentioned elsewhere to jog my memory.
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Yea I am the same way. I typically never play games more than once so I tend to stay away from SP EA stuff. I bought BG3 years prior but only ever played for acouple hours becuase I knew I wanted to play the full game. Beyond that though, it most certainly is a very good tool for devs to iron out things before 1.0. No Rest for the Wicked will be a better game because of it for sure, especailly for people who can wait fo the full release and play it all at once.
 
Iichter

Iichter

Member
Oct 29, 2017
1,348
That dude *just* launched his early access game and thinks he can boast around and give advice to the best game designers of the industry.

Sit down.
 
Sho_Nuff82

Sho_Nuff82

Member
Nov 14, 2017
18,479
Why would you say something so controversial yet so brave?

There have been plenty of great examples of games released in early access that went on to be a success, and there are plenty more examples of games released as an FG that weren't really fixed until months or years later.

Having EA option is a good thing for devs and players.
 
Dyno

Dyno

AVALANCHE
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
13,377
-Tetsuo- said:
Yea I am the same way. I typically never play games more than once so I tend to stay away from SP EA stuff. I bought BG3 years prior but only ever played for acouple hours becuase I knew I wanted to play the full game. Beyond that though, it most certainly is a very good tool for devs to iron out things before 1.0. No Rest for the Wicked will be a better game because of it for sure, especailly for people who can wait fo the full release and play it all at once.
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Yeah definitely agree with SP EA games, I do replays, but only on a very small selection of titles that I'm a big fan of. You're right though, it is very beneficial to the devs. I don't think something like KSP would have ended up where it did without it, and in many cases with smaller companies it can be necessary to get the funding needed to carry on. I've definitely pulled away from the model myself as I don't often make use of it well, but I can see the benefits even if I'd steer clear of many personally.
 

Ring Dings and Pepsi

Member
Jan 23, 2024
337
Willin said:
Dark Souls did come out in Early Access, and it was called Demon's Souls.
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Funnily enough I consider Demon's Souls to be a slightly MORE finished product than Dark Souls considering it did not have any areas that were blatantly unfinished. It didn't have an equivalent of Lost Izalith where you traversed it and you're thinking "it looks like they could only spend like 20 minutes in this level". At least with Demon's Souls they had the sense to cut out completely the world that did not get finished.
 
Dog of Bork

Dog of Bork

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,013
Texas
I've basically stopped buying early access games because I find I don't play them when they're finished. I don't want to play a game at its worst and lose interest before it's polished. So I guess this is a temporary "pass" for me.
 
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