It's exactly this.
With consoles wobbling, and a new generation raised on PC gaming coming up, something is going to fill that console shaped hole in the market / living room.
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NVIDIA Working With Partners To Create New SFF Gaming PC Ecosystem Powered By “SFF Enthusiast GeForce” GPUs
- Thread starter stopmrdomino
- Start date
- Rumor
It's exactly this.
With consoles wobbling, and a new generation raised on PC gaming coming up, something is going to fill that console shaped hole in the market / living room.
The same interface problems still exist so not likely until that's addressed. At best it stays somewhere else and is streamed to the living room for the majority of people.
I've been hovering over the buy button of a Fractal Terra for a month now. It's just hard to justify the cost to change my ATX if it's not a full upgrade (need to change Mobo) because even though the SFF are smaller, they're still not "small". It might fit into a entertainment center for some but for me It's like VR headsets, yes they are getting smaller, but they're still a bulky headset, they're not glasses.
For me, while it would be nice, it's not functionally an improvement, it'll just be a smaller box on/under my desk
For me, while it would be nice, it's not functionally an improvement, it'll just be a smaller box on/under my desk
I think the paradigm(?) might have shifted these days, from gaming laptops being 'the thing', to the Steam Deck and adjacent ROG/GPD handheld devices if you genuinely want to do portable PC gaming.
In my experience, you can't really do much on-the-go gaming on a gaming laptop. Trying to play on the built-in keyboard and trackpad is ass for anything other than a point-n-click adventure or turn-based game in my experience, so they quickly end up rooted to the spot, or at least never leaving the house.
So the 'Gaming laptop' might be on its way out, but people still want something that doesn't hog desk-space, looks good, is bre-built, and has a decent amount of grunt for gaming. SFF PCs fit that bill pretty well, and can also be better bang-for-buck than a gaming laptop due to the bits they don't need to include.
They can also be easier to service and upgrade - if they have been built with that in mind.
BTW, you can probably also look forward to eGPU docking stations becoming a larger market in the future, as more people with Steam Decks etc look to hook them up to a TV and extend their use.
Personally, my desktop setup is a MinisForum UM780XTX with an attached GPD G1 eGPU, and a WinMax2 as my Steam Deck-adjacent portable device.
I like the setup quite a bit, though the fact that the G1 is a first-gen product does show as it can be a bit wonky a times. There is obvious room for innovation and improvement.
ANyway, to me, this news looks like Nvidia trying to get into the space that they left open for AMD all these years, as every small/portable PC device has been running AMD silicon, with Intel occasionally being offered as a 'do we really have to?' option to those still stuck in that mindset.
I guess the question is, how serious is Nvidia going to be? It feels like they've been out of the ultra-small-and-low-power game for a while now, and they are making massive B2B bank from selling to the AI market. The SFF PC market is still pretty niche and hobbyist, so unless it suddenly explodes over the next couple years (and I kinda hope it does TBH), I have a hard time believing Nvidia is going to dedicate their top talent to the sector.
OP
OP
It's how it is right now with most of SFF components.
But apparently some people like their PCs being small for some reason and will pay up.
It really has not. Gaming laptops are outselling Deck by some 100:1 factor. Other "Deck competitors" aren't even worth mentioning sales wise.
Why has it taken so long for someone to do this
This is exactly what I would want something that looks like the series X or PS5 with easy to access both the hard drive and gpu so I could change them both out as I wanted
This is exactly what I would want something that looks like the series X or PS5 with easy to access both the hard drive and gpu so I could change them both out as I wanted
I feel like people are blowing this up to be way more than it is (likely) going to be. This isn't new cards, new form factor, anything. SFF cases will always conform around the rough size of high power cards because that's what the enthusiasts want. You can fit a 4090 in a 10L case if you really want.
What this probably is is trimming down on the unspecified little niggles that become huge problems when trying to fit big components into small cases. Like you bought a "2 slot" GPU but the shroud goes a few mm past the pcie bracket. Or the power pins force you to buy a right angle adapter. Or the positioning means you can't have a right angle adapter, but you have no idea of the clearance you need.
What this probably is is trimming down on the unspecified little niggles that become huge problems when trying to fit big components into small cases. Like you bought a "2 slot" GPU but the shroud goes a few mm past the pcie bracket. Or the power pins force you to buy a right angle adapter. Or the positioning means you can't have a right angle adapter, but you have no idea of the clearance you need.
I tried to find sales numbers for 2023 but couldnt. Best I could find was an estimate for 2021 - 28 mil.
Way more than the deck, but not by 100:1
I was hoping maybe it'd be a Steam Machine with customized SFF internals to allow a quick and easy 1st party upgrade option later on without even needing to open it like a normal PC. "Pro" upgrade options without having to get a whole new game box (or know any PC hardware stuff) could be the way forward. Could probably easily market that as the future of "console" gaming.
Whatever Nvidia is working on here though, I hope it involves making sure to have really good cooling options. After spending loads of money on a fancy small PC box, I'd prefer it not to sound like a jet engine because the fans have to go too fast to handle the heat.
I'm relieved I'm not alone with my A4-SFX v1 being also loud and disappointed the subsequent cases and components are not quieter than mine.
If that's the case they gotta sort out the pricing. Consoles are actually affordable. PC's really aren't anymore for a large portion of the console audience
I've tried to do a SFF (mITX) build a decade ago and I regretted it. Unless you're ready to fiddle A LOT with it it'll just end up being much noisier than a regular build because you're packing a lot of stuff in a very small enclosure and the fans will go insane at the smallest load.
From my own experience, SFF are fine for smaller loads, but if you try to game on them with high end specs you'll need to put way too much effort (and money) to make it worth it. If you have the space it's better to have a handful of big fans at lower RPM moving air in/out than 1 or 2 smaller fans running at max RPM trying to keep the thing from overheating. Also, be ready to undervolt / underclock like mad.
From my own experience, SFF are fine for smaller loads, but if you try to game on them with high end specs you'll need to put way too much effort (and money) to make it worth it. If you have the space it's better to have a handful of big fans at lower RPM moving air in/out than 1 or 2 smaller fans running at max RPM trying to keep the thing from overheating. Also, be ready to undervolt / underclock like mad.
That's about 20:1 still and yes it is closer to 100:1 if you consider that people are playing games on more than just "gaming" laptops.
This comp is good and was unexpected even a few years ago.
Now that switch proved you can do these devices seems the market is exploding on the niche level with good stuff. Valve and Nvidia competeting in the pricer tiers with nintendo taking the bottom is gonna be huge. They will corner both end with this step. Nintendo makes a low end device they like while they step in with their own steam deck.
There's no if this will work valve literally admitted they aren't interested in frequent models and no one big is gonna give nvidia comp. Nvidia has all the excuses every year or so to keep enticing consumers.
The chase for raw power is over the cpus can't keep up with the gpus. 2 gens now. I won't be nice devs shouldn't be in this position of making miracles when logic and software are working against them from the get go.
Now that switch proved you can do these devices seems the market is exploding on the niche level with good stuff. Valve and Nvidia competeting in the pricer tiers with nintendo taking the bottom is gonna be huge. They will corner both end with this step. Nintendo makes a low end device they like while they step in with their own steam deck.
There's no if this will work valve literally admitted they aren't interested in frequent models and no one big is gonna give nvidia comp. Nvidia has all the excuses every year or so to keep enticing consumers.
The chase for raw power is over the cpus can't keep up with the gpus. 2 gens now. I won't be nice devs shouldn't be in this position of making miracles when logic and software are working against them from the get go.
Yeah you can already fit very powerful hardware in a very small case if you want to. It's just rather expensive, but I doubt that's going to change.
Guidelines like ITX and SFX already exist. To me this reads like they're working on a new ''SFF label'' for those parts, so mostly just marketing..
That triggered a flashback for me. Now I'm mad all over again that Nvidia didn't release a FE for the 4070ti and I'm stuck with a stupidly large card for no reasonable purpose.
To me ATX cases are such a waste of space, even with an ATX mobo.
I have an RTX 4080 FE with a 5600X and it's a bit larger than an XSX.
It's also an open-case, which apart from looking cool as shit, has better temps than anything else.
Well this thread is selling me on an SFF build...
I have a huge tower atm to fit my 3080. Massive card so genuinely had to buy a new (bigger) tower to fit it, moving everything over which was such a hassle. But I also really enjoy fiddling with fan position and airflow, and make custom fan curves, to keep temps and noise low. I recently undervolted and underclocked my 3080 (since I was rarely maxing it out with the games I play) and it made a colossal different to temps, noise, and power draw for barely any noticeable performance loss. My card tops out at 60 degrees C now, usually sitting in the high 50s.
So I was thinking about moving to a 5070 or 6070 as my next upgrade, and the thought of trying to reach such low temps again in a small form factor is now weirdly exciting lol
I have a huge tower atm to fit my 3080. Massive card so genuinely had to buy a new (bigger) tower to fit it, moving everything over which was such a hassle. But I also really enjoy fiddling with fan position and airflow, and make custom fan curves, to keep temps and noise low. I recently undervolted and underclocked my 3080 (since I was rarely maxing it out with the games I play) and it made a colossal different to temps, noise, and power draw for barely any noticeable performance loss. My card tops out at 60 degrees C now, usually sitting in the high 50s.
So I was thinking about moving to a 5070 or 6070 as my next upgrade, and the thought of trying to reach such low temps again in a small form factor is now weirdly exciting lol
Just don't buy AIBs. They are unnecessarily large and the coolers on NVIDIA GPUs are more than fine since Turing.
The one pain point is the unconventional airflow which doesn't necessarily work well with ITX cases. Although Xtia released a version of the Xproto back in the day that improved FE cards by modifying the case a bit.
I don't really understand why people buy non-FE cards where they are available. I go out of my way to get them even though they are not officially available.
I went SFF at some point, regretted it and switched back. Problems were airflow, lower quality components, more expensive, and much harder to work with.
Kinda like the experience I had when I build a SFF for a friend a few months ago.
Definitely something I wouldn't recommend to newcomer since there is a lot of prior building knowledge required. Also would stay away from high-end components that draw lots of power and the highest I would go is probably something like a 4070 for those systems.
Nvidia cards are already expensive as shit, of course no one is going to the trouble of importing a FE model on countries where Nvidia doesn't give a fuck and risk paying more for shipping/customs and potential warranty issues.
I don't think it counts but my solution is a tiny Mac mini when I'm just doing browsing, basic Photoshop, or other activities that don't need major GPU features, then I turn on the bigger tower with the beefy Nvidia GPU for games and heavier video editing. The absolute silence and minimal heat generation of the Mac mini is really nice for most tasks, as well as macOS in general.
My solution was going with an open-case. This is definitely not for everyone, but contrary to popular belief, dust is a non-issue.
Cats? They probably are though.
Still, if you can do an open-ITX build it's the best of both worlds. You have a small PC, which is going to be cooler than most towers, but don't need a PhD in cable management or check the exact sizes for everything.
I've been holding off for so long waiting...part of me is thinking I should just eat the $200 and buy the 2019 version, because the moment I do, they will announce a 2024 version.
Nah I'm good. Already settled for a new case for my monster build in early 2025.
Im assuming/hoping it will somewhat coincide with the Switch 2 if it uses a similar chip like the previous generation.
Okay, thanks =)
My 3080 was an ASUS TUF edition, which I chose after comparing temps and noise levels of all the available 3080 options. It was the best performing in those categories. But that was before I got into undervolting which I'd absolutely do again, so I think that all becomes a non-issue now. Good to know the FE cards are much smaller.
I certainly don't want to get into this with the goal of going as small as absolutely possible. Heck, maybe mini-ITX is what I'll end up settling on. But as small as practically possible, that still allows for great airflow and keeps the dust out... Yeah, I'd love to do that and save a bunch of space for a bigger monitor on my desk =D
Seems like it's a "these parts fit together without needing an engineering degree or a third hand" situation. I approve.
I mean, especially the 3080 FE, which was my previous card is definitely hotter than the TUF version. It's one of the more toasty Ampere FE card.
The question is "does that matter". I would argue no. OC is basically useless and has been for quite some time, similarly to CPUs. As long as the card isn't a jet engine or doesn't cook itself lower temps are not worth it. So even it being one of the hotter 3080s it's perfectly fine.
The Fermi era suicidal GPUs are long gone thankfully.
Of course if you have a massive ATX case, size doesn't really matter, but at that point if an FE card is available it's most likely the cheapest option.
They also don't look like shit, which for me is a big factor but I can see how others wouldn't care.
Nah I'm good. Already settled for a new case for my monster build in early 2025.
*Look at all of that wasted space*
Just kidding, that's a handsome AF case. Have fun with it :).
Relevant: we need more white parts. At an okay price.
Considering how common white cases are, there is zero reason for white colored GPUs to be so fucking expensive.
Do cases still come with dust filters like my Antec P180 from back in the day?Nah I'm good. Already settled for a new case for my monster build in early 2025.
You are going to pay more and like it, and here is some rgb to bump up the price even more.
Oooh! In time I'd like one of these for my video pinball table.
I love the Shuttles I built. I hated taking them apart every few months to clean out all the fans.
This is where I would typically recommend the NR200 or TU150 but both seem to be discontinued.
View: https://youtu.be/c3HcbOw1_YQ?si=XuTEGaNSXYR4J1tk
View: https://youtu.be/aMP3-881X5o?si=Du7jmh-PQIHD646D
Of course some folks argue these aren't true "Small Form Factor" PCs
View: https://youtu.be/c3HcbOw1_YQ?si=XuTEGaNSXYR4J1tk
View: https://youtu.be/aMP3-881X5o?si=Du7jmh-PQIHD646D
Of course some folks argue these aren't true "Small Form Factor" PCs
I would like a 4090 24GB that fits in an SFF case. They are too long at the moment. Excluding the MSI hybrid which has another issue with SFF cases.
Give me a SFF 4080, or 4080 dammit. I bought the second smallest 4070ti Super on the market, and that's because the smallest one is only available in outside of the Western Hemisphere.
Forget 10L, I want high end cards that can fit in sub-10L cases. Someone modded a 4080 into a Velka 5, and that shit is like 6L. I want that without the modding.
Holy shit that's awesome! My 3080 FE is snug in the Dan A4 v2 (had an eVGA 2080 8GB before) but I always love to see super small builds with extremely powerful components.
Optimum did a super crazy watercooled 4090 build in a T1 which looked really sick!
I want to build the smallest full custom water loop PC as possible. There are some boutique case makers out there that do this. Everything is open air, which I prefer. I'm just hoping there are more options available for custom watercooling by the time I get ready to build again.
It would probably fit easily in a Dan C4 SFX V1 case, but those things have been sold out for a while. He's currently in the middle of doing the V2 and hopefully we'll see more in the next few months. It's a tad bigger, but can support mATX boards and will be generally roomier. It's the case I'm waiting to buy, even if I don't have all the parts for it yet.
I'll pay $200 for that case and wait to build around it. I'm that serious about it.
Also, depending on your current model of 4090, there are ones out there that DO fit 4090s. I know FEs, while wide, are generally much easier to work with in SFF machines.
SFF's is related to desktop PC's in small form factors. So not giant case but more something that can more easily be transported. This isn't directly related to mobile chipsets (Steam Deck, ROG Ally, etc.). The desktop GPU's released lately are getting more difficult to fit in SFF cases without some modifications.
I'm glad because I am really debating going with a SFF rig the next time I rebuild a PC (which will either be when the 50 series releases or the series after in 2-3 years). Either giving my current build to a family member or making it a personal server.
I'm glad because I am really debating going with a SFF rig the next time I rebuild a PC (which will either be when the 50 series releases or the series after in 2-3 years). Either giving my current build to a family member or making it a personal server.
Honestly I'd be okay with some more performance-per-watt focused DIY GPUs.
we're honestly at a stage where compatibility and availability is an all time high for sff cases in the 10-15L range. These will fit your 4090's without issue and thermals/noise are great as long as your part selection works out.
Lian Li and Fractal have your mass market designs, coolermaster have their new NR200 and a ton of smaller companies are bringing well featured itx cases to market. If you want to jump up to that 15-20L range you can start looking at fitting matx boards with atx power supplies saving a ton of money too.
<10L is where things get a bit more interesting. There's room to play in that 8-9L range but once you get to <7L, things drop off significantly.
Lian Li and Fractal have your mass market designs, coolermaster have their new NR200 and a ton of smaller companies are bringing well featured itx cases to market. If you want to jump up to that 15-20L range you can start looking at fitting matx boards with atx power supplies saving a ton of money too.
<10L is where things get a bit more interesting. There's room to play in that 8-9L range but once you get to <7L, things drop off significantly.
Yea it needs to look like series X and be the same size as it to me, those just look like small desktops
Also easier to take to cons, plugged into TVs in the living room, etc
I built inside a Fractal Terra (10L case) a few months ago after having an ATX tower, and I am never going back. It fits a 4090 FE and the entire build costs a little more than an ATX build.
