entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
61,791
its an establishment paper with a left wing bias. emphasis on 'establishment'. i don't think it swings far enough left for some people here for it to ie. censor right wing voices for its op-eds, etc.
Which I don't get since they had a Nixon speechwriter (William Safire) writing a column for over thirty years there. And David Brooks has been there for ages now as well. Their columnists and Op-Ed have always been more politically diverse than say, their rivals at the WSJ. This is not new. However, the current political climate is FOR or AGAINST these days. I think this is the curse of left, we're more open minded. While the rightward based publications rarely feature liberal writers.

Their editorial page is clearly left, however.
 

Deleted member 46493

User requested account closure
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SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,051
I find the reactions to this article very interesting, especially since its thesis seems to be "Chinese government very successful at alleviating poverty despite policies we usually consider antithetical to growth".

China was an exceedingly poor country until very recently. Most of the people in it lived in squalor. It isn't blasphemous or some kind of a betrayal to acknowledge that that is no longer the case. Indeed, it makes you sound ignorant and partisan to ignore that fact. I know full well that the Chinese government is also doing plenty of evil on a nearly unprecedented scale (see: Uyghurs, Falun Gong, Tibet, the recolonization of Africa, Taiwan, the Great Firewall of China, etc etc), but that is precisely the article's point: China has grown a lot despite being that place.

At the end of the day, it's an interesting question to consider how this growth affects the Chinese people's perceptions of their own government. Extreme poverty is well within the living memory of the country, and now many Chinese are actually living pretty well by any standard. The western view that the Chinese government is simply evil does not hold a particularly large amount of weight over there, and this is a pretty big reason why.

This is the crux of it. A lot of statistics were published behind the health outcomes of Chinese citizens and it's nothing short of a miracle as to what they achieved in less than half a century. As much as the politics and social policies can be criticized, the socioeconomic statistics cannot be denied.

Or, to be more on the point, the rise of the 3rd world middle class -- China, India, and Africa -- will be the primary economic force in the 21st century.
 

SilentPanda

Member
Nov 6, 2017
14,501
Earth
Only if you like concentration and reeducation camps, forced disappearances, occupations of sovereign nations, an Orwellian social credit system, an extremely fragile economy, no free elections, being ruled by a fat lazy bear, and slavery.


Anyone who says "lawl just like the US amirite?" has the sociopolitical understanding of a Trump.

You forget the smart glasses and tons of camera that has facial recognization, on criminal, and will probabely expand into the social credit system, and we might get something like the psycho-pass but instead of mental instability, it's based on social credit, and will be counted in real time, and if it get too low, you get sent to a re-education camp.
And that's only if you're Han Chinese, if you're not, you get sent to a re-education camp anyway.~
 
Jan 2, 2018
1,476
Only if you like concentration and reeducation camps, forced disappearances, occupations of sovereign nations, an Orwellian social credit system, an extremely fragile economy, no free elections, being ruled by a fat lazy bear, and slavery.


Anyone who says "lawl just like the US amirite?" has the sociopolitical understanding of a Trump.

Good post. I don't like American politics, but compared to China, the USA is amazing. You can swear on your president all day long on all mediums and nobody gives a fuck.

In China you get arrested and nobody hears from you again.
https://www.independent.co.uk/news/...appears-spraying-ink-xi-jinping-a8455166.html

Seriously, China is everything I fear from a future state.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,536
"I don't wanna give NYT a click..."

The anti-NYT attacks on this forum/community are so weird. Its like you're proud of your Trump-like Know Nothingism.

Like usual, NYT's investigative pieces are enormous and very well done. I'm probably like a 1/20th into it, but it's typically excellent work from the NYT.

Today's article does not extend nearly enough criticism to Xi Jingpin (practically zero criticism, part of it reads as government-like propaganda) and Chinese authoritarianism, but tomorrow's article is titled "Part 2: How to Control Your Citizens: Opportunity. Nationalism. Fear." which I'd imagine will go into more depth.

Does China have a better healthcare system than the USA?

No, hundreds of millions of people don't have feasible access to modern medicine that the West has had access to since after World War II. Somewhere over 95% of the country has health insurance from the government, but not realistic access to modern medicine, as about ~40% of Chinese live in rural areas, and those rural areas do not have what anybody in the West would consider sanitary, safe, or modern medicine. Clean water and sanitary sewers are still a major problem in China, let alone sanitary hospitals, clinics, doctors, or access to modern medicine.

But it's difficult for outside groups to document this or to report on the scale of detrimental health care in China. The government has this propaganda/policy program called "Healthy China 2020" which I'm sure will just be declared a success.
 
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Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
Amazing how people can read an article like this and just automatically assume it's a China puff piece. Here we have a country that in the span of less than a decade has managed to pull an unprecedented amount of its citizens out of poverty and is now in position to dictate politics on a global scale. The point of this article is to elucidate why and how this came to be. And predictably, the only talking points are backhanded statements about how corrupt the government is, oppression of ethnic minorities, social ranking system...and yes I agree all these things are evil but the discussion is always used to shut down any proper discussion on why China is where it is today (and it's always from a position of Western moral superiority as if people in the East don't understand their own situations). We've heard Western political commentators for bordering on decades with proclamations of China's collapse because of its reluctance to embrace democracy. "It's despotic so it doesn't count" is a completely unproductive and ignorant stance.



Prior to Qing, Ming dynasty China had a huge projection of international power with a strong navy and large reach. Coupled with a market that Western countries sought highly, China was definitely one of if not the biggest global power at the time. Of course the Chinese empire saw the other nations as behind and failed to recognize potential wealth in other lands, they disbanded their navy. This coincided with the European colonization of the new world and the discovery of many silver mines in South America, finally allowing European nations to access the Chinese markets (silver was the Chinese currency). Once those mines dried up, there was opium introduced into a chaotic Qing dynasty. Think about what kind of lesson China learned from imperialism. The country went from being at the top in terms of wealth and power to near the bottom because they allowed foreign countries to enter their market pretty much freely. They did not expand their own territories because they saw nothing outside of their borders. Ultimately, they were driven into the ground and invaded by the West and by Japan. How does that apply to China today? You can't do business in China without either the government or involving a Chinese company. China now is fiercely protective of not only its borders but the area surrounding it and there's now economic expansion into Africa. These are all lessons learned because as a country it still remembers how badly they fell. But this is the discussion no one ever wants to have...

Yep, which is why:

"An isolated, impoverished backwater..." had my eyebrows raised.

What is it with some people that can't seem to acknowledge that there were some great, nonwhite cultures/civilizations? Don't they realize how advanced these civilizations were, for the longest periods of time? Far longer than the short blips like opium & Mao.

I do think that capitalism has played a large role in this, and everyone knows that capitalism and democracy have nothing to do with each other, really, if we're looking at the economics versus the social mindset. There's no need for the idea of democracy. The "marketplace of ideas" doesn't actually translate into democracy, it just translates into $$$. Capitalism doesn't encourage exchanging noble ideas for the sake of being noble, it's only concerned about profit. China doesn't need free speech (in terms of First Amendment) in order to succeed, and sadly, the majority of people don't care about democracy as long as they're comfortable enough. This is not a whataboutism- I'm just pointing to many parts of the US. There's massive voter disenfranchisement, there's awful police brutality, and racism results in violence and deaths and discriminatory prison sentences. But, the majority of the people in those areas are comfortable at home with McDs and a cell phone, and nothing is changing. In fact, there's been a HUGE backlash to change.

So, not at all surprising that China is succeeding despite not having democracy or whatever our idea of a "free" country is. People don't care as long as they're comfortable enough, and I think China has picked up on this. Plus, the collective culture versus the individual culture play a role.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,765
If nothing else (and that is a big if, as there are thousands of better reasons to visit China), people should visit China just for the sake of seeing what it's like to actually be there.

This comparison is a bit hackneyed, but it's good enough. In evaluating the success of the Chinese government, consider India. India is a country that does considerably better than China in just about every indicator of freedom. It is also considerably poorer, and India's lower income inequality does little to change the fact that you are far more likely to be poor if you live in India than if you live in China. So the question is this: Would you rather live the result of a country who prioritized ideological freedom or the result of a country that prioritized achieving an acceptable standard of living?

Many would argue that a government should endeavor to prioritize both, but the question of whether that is possible to do on the scale of China is an open one. We live in a world with exactly two available case studies: India and China. Right now, the quality of life in China is significantly higher than it is in India.
 

SilentPanda

Member
Nov 6, 2017
14,501
Earth
Does China have a better healthcare system than the USA?

It is more affordable, and access will vary, if you're in one of the bigger city, you'll have relatively good care, but the number of doctor and nurse don't really match the population(They need more of each)

So medical technique and procedure is much higher in the US, but affordability for basic and newer method are pretty expensive, when compared to China or Taiwan, which have universal healthcare...

And the tech and knowledge of doctor are also not as good as the US, which is still the leading one, so for more serious case, if you're a Taiwan citizen, you'll travel back to Taiwan, which has National Health Insurance for pretty much all citizen, and the care is better and usually covered by the NHI and you only pay the monthly fee, or for major surgery, and you're rich, you go to the US for healthcare at a good hospital.

But if you lack the money or ability to travel far, and don't live near the metro area, adequate care might not meet what you would usually consider a good standard for the training of the doctor or nurse and even the hospital.

So from my personal exprerience, visited one of my uncle last year in Xuhai, and visited his son, who was sick often, and had moved into the country to be with the wife's parent to see if the cleaner atmosphere there will be helpful.
And I was able to visit him and see the national hospital that he was in at the time, it was not very...sanitory, it's adequate, but not clean or sterile when compared to western hospital.

So I helped him register his son as a Taiwan citizen, to get into the NHI and have a Taiwan doctor(Western universty trained) check and let them stay at one of my property for the time.
But that's only because he's a Taiwan citizen too, and his son is considered one and covered under the NHI, and if necessary, and deemed necessary by the doctor, we are willing to help them get a second opinon in the US medical system, but we can afford it, but that's not true for everyone.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,536
Yep, which is why:

"An isolated, impoverished backwater..." had my eyebrows raised.

What is it with some people that can't seem to acknowledge that there were some great, nonwhite cultures/civilizations? Don't they realize how advanced these civilizations were, for the longest periods of time? Far longer than the short blips like opium & Mao.

I do think that capitalism has played a large role in this, and everyone knows that capitalism and democracy have nothing to do with each other, really, if we're looking at the economics versus the social mindset. There's no need for the idea of democracy. The "marketplace of ideas" doesn't actually translate into democracy, it just translates into $$$. Capitalism doesn't encourage exchanging noble ideas for the sake of being noble, it's only concerned about profit. China doesn't need free speech (in terms of First Amendment) in order to succeed, and sadly, the majority of people don't care about democracy as long as they're comfortable enough. This is not a whataboutism- I'm just pointing to many parts of the US. There's massive voter disenfranchisement, there's awful police brutality, and racism results in violence and deaths and discriminatory prison sentences. But, the majority of the people in those areas are comfortable at home with McDs and a cell phone, and nothing is changing. In fact, there's been a HUGE backlash to change.

So, not at all surprising that China is succeeding despite not having democracy or whatever our idea of a "free" country is. People don't care as long as they're comfortable enough, and I think China has picked up on this. Plus, the collective culture versus the individual culture play a role.

I don't think that I'm willing to give up on the idea that capitalism and liberal democracies do have some unifying link. China will be a test case for the theory, but an argument about authoritarian capitalist systems is that they generally devolve into illiberal oligarchies, which is the case with Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Democracy ultimately provides a check on illiberal authoritarian capitalism which is why, generally, liberal democracy and capitalism have thrived together. It's very easy to talk about "China's success," and look at it from pure numbers, hundreds of millions of people who have risen out of poverty over the last 20 years of opening up their economic system. But, hundreds of millions more still don't have access to basic human necessities like clean drinking water. So, you can say "Well, CHina is the most industrialized nation in the world now by output -- that is success!" but then a challenge to that is that more than half of Chinese do not have access to clean drinking water, and it's not just in rural areas as is the case with no access to medicine, but cities as well (Guardian Summary of Greenpeace study).

So, how does this come back to democracy? Well, typically, societies that are both liberal democracies and capitalist economic systems provide a balance on how the entire society grows at approximately the same clip. Now, for sure, you'll have long periods where there is a rising gap between rich and poor, as has been happening in many Western countries for the last 2-3 decades, but for the most part, those have historically balanced out within democracies, where in authoritarian dictatorships, plutocracies generally develop, and you end up formalizing a permanent wealthy class and permanent vast impoverished class.

Now, of course, there are going to be cases where capitalist dictatorships can develop and be successful, but eventually one dam bursts, either the economic order collapses or the dictatorship collapses. An example is Pinochet's Chile, which in the 1970s and 80s implemented a free market capitalist system and it caused Chile to outpace most other Latin and South American countries well into the 90s... but eventually, Democracy won out: Pinochet's regime is remembered now for human rights abuses and corruption, while his party was swept out of power and he was charged with numerous crimes. Economic inequality grew because Chile under Pinochet was not a liberal democratic society, there were sham elections and it contributed to a growing plutocracy, before his government finally collapsed under overwhelming public opposition. There are other examples as well, but Pinochet and Chile are one of the better, small-scale micro examples of the threat that capitalism provides in a non-democratic system.
 
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Liha

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
224
Salzburg, Austria
Great article with a lot of new and detailed information, can't wait for the 2nd part.

[QUOTE="Sesha, post: 15157343, member: 908"]US and China are both shit. No arguments there.[/QUOTE]
100%, agree
 

SRG01

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,051
Great article with a lot of new and detailed information, can't wait for the 2nd part.

[QUOTE="Sesha, post: 15157343, member: 908"]US and China are both shit. No arguments there.
100%, agree[/QUOTE]

Agreed, and somewhat apt since their economies are so intertwined. Both the US and China today wouldn't exist without the other.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,536
The people equivocating between the United States, or any Western country, and China, are incredibly ignorant and lack perspective.

It's like, comparing China's drinking water crisis -- where 80% of mainland China's major river basins are deemed "unsafe for human contact" -- and then equivocating, "Well, how is that different from the US... ever heard of FLINT MICHIGAN?" and thinking that you're making a cogent, rational point. It's not.

Likewise, a controversial and illegal practice of the Trump administration separating children from their families at the border is not the same thing as 60+ years of forced internment and re-education camps for people sharing illegal opinions in China. So, when you say "Literally the same thing," no, it is not literally the same thing.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
The people equivocating between the United States, or any Western country, and China, are incredibly ignorant and lack perspective.

It's like, comparing China's drinking water crisis -- where 80% of mainland China's major river basins are deemed "unsafe for human contact" -- and then equivocating, "Well, how is that different from the US... ever heard of FLINT MICHIGAN?" and thinking that you're making a cogent, rational point. It's not.

Likewise, a controversial and illegal practice of the Trump administration separating children from their families at the border is not the same thing as 60+ years of forced internment and re-education camps for people sharing illegal opinions in China. So, when you say "Literally the same thing," no, it is not literally the same thing.
You're not wrong, the US is miles ahead of China when it comes to clean and safe tap water (and obviously other many many areas), but what is the underlying argument that being made by these comparisons?
If your argument is that the Chinese people would have been better off if they had an American style system of government in the last 30 years than I think I'm gonna have to disagree pretty strongly.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
22,961
You're not wrong, the US is miles ahead of China when it comes to clean and safe tap water (and obviously other many many areas), but what is the underlying argument that being made by these comparisons?
If your argument is that the Chinese people would have been better off if they had an American style system of government in the last 30 years than I think I'm gonna have to disagree pretty strongly.
That's not the argument being made.
 

jackissocool

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
738
Ohio
lol
yup
The people equivocating between the United States, or any Western country, and China, are incredibly ignorant and lack perspective.

It's like, comparing China's drinking water crisis -- where 80% of mainland China's major river basins are deemed "unsafe for human contact" -- and then equivocating, "Well, how is that different from the US... ever heard of FLINT MICHIGAN?" and thinking that you're making a cogent, rational point. It's not.

Likewise, a controversial and illegal practice of the Trump administration separating children from their families at the border is not the same thing as 60+ years of forced internment and re-education camps for people sharing illegal opinions in China. So, when you say "Literally the same thing," no, it is not literally the same thing.
America imprisons more people than China. There are thousands of municipalities in the US with worse water pollution than Flint.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,765
I actually agree with your central thesis so this isn't really a response to your post, but I think you are underselling the extent to which China has improved in quality of life over the last few decades. It is not simply a numbers thing; the argument that quality of life has perceptibly improved is not tied to the GDP. It's somewhat beyond the scope of what I'm willing to do for a forum post to elaborate on this point in a truly rigorous way, but I will just indicate as a starting point the fact that, in 1990, China's HDI was right on the line between the low- and medium- development categories, and that today it is firmly in the high category.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I tried to find another country that had achieved a rate of change on HDI as high as China did from 1990 to today, and I couldn't find one. There are a few that came close (Iran, Singapore, Vietnam, Bangladesh), but China's ~.250 change topped them all.

Second edit: I threw the data into Excel real quick. China's (positive) rate of change since 1990 is the second largest behind Rwanda's.
 
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The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,536
You're not wrong, the US is miles ahead of China when it comes to clean and safe tap water (and obviously other many many areas), but what is the underlying argument that being made by these comparisons?
If your argument is that the Chinese people would have been better off if they had an American style system of government in the last 30 years than I think I'm gonna have to disagree pretty strongly.

Then what is it then?
I'm honestly asking.
Is it about ranking "which country is worse"?

My argument is pretty clear from the first sentence of my post: Equivocating between the United States, or any Western country, and China is ignorant and lacks perspective.

It was a rebuttal to the handful of posts in this thread (and usually others) that equivocate between an authoritarian dictatorship and a liberal democracy, usually from the perspective that the liberal democracy is "just as bad" as the illiberal authoritarian dictatorship.

But, beyond that, no, I wouldn't argue that China should or could have magically had an American/Western constitutional democracy.

Although I do think that liberalism is better than illiberalism, and that the Chinese people would be better off with a more liberal society and government, yes.
 
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Pet

More helpful than the IRS
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
7,070
SoCal
I don't think that I'm willing to give up on the idea that capitalism and liberal democracies do have some unifying link. China will be a test case for the theory, but an argument about authoritarian capitalist systems is that they generally devolve into illiberal oligarchies, which is the case with Russia since the fall of the Soviet Union.

Democracy ultimately provides a check on illiberal authoritarian capitalism which is why, generally, liberal democracy and capitalism have thrived together. It's very easy to talk about "China's success," and look at it from pure numbers, hundreds of millions of people who have risen out of poverty over the last 20 years of opening up their economic system. But, hundreds of millions more still don't have access to basic human necessities like clean drinking water. So, you can say "Well, CHina is the most industrialized nation in the world now by output -- that is success!" but then a challenge to that is that more than half of Chinese do not have access to clean drinking water, and it's not just in rural areas as is the case with no access to medicine, but cities as well (Guardian Summary of Greenpeace study).

So, how does this come back to democracy? Well, typically, societies that are both liberal democracies and capitalist economic systems provide a balance on how the entire society grows at approximately the same clip. Now, for sure, you'll have long periods where there is a rising gap between rich and poor, as has been happening in many Western countries for the last 2-3 decades, but for the most part, those have historically balanced out within democracies, where in authoritarian dictatorships, plutocracies generally develop, and you end up formalizing a permanent wealthy class and permanent vast impoverished class.

Now, of course, there are going to be cases where capitalist dictatorships can develop and be successful, but eventually one dam bursts, either the economic order collapses or the dictatorship collapses. An example is Pinochet's Chile, which in the 1970s and 80s implemented a free market capitalist system and it caused Chile to outpace most other Latin and South American countries well into the 90s... but eventually, Democracy won out: Pinochet's regime is remembered now for human rights abuses and corruption, while his party was swept out of power and he was charged with numerous crimes. Economic inequality grew because Chile under Pinochet was not a liberal democratic society, there were sham elections and it contributed to a growing plutocracy, before his government finally collapsed under overwhelming public opposition. There are other examples as well, but Pinochet and Chile are one of the better, small-scale micro examples of the threat that capitalism provides in a non-democratic system.

Not safe to call it yet on the bolded.

For Chile, I don't see how it was a lack of democracy/dictatorship that caused it to collapse. From what I remember, there were a bunch of policies that caused rapid inflation. There was also the problem with the government subsidizing a lot of social programs. This was far before Pinochet. He came to power AFTER the economy plummeted in the 70s (you could argue that the collapse was one of the reasons why he even got into power). In the 80s and 90s, yeah, the economy got better, but that was during the Pinochet regime, and because of the change of economic policy in Chile. There wasn't really a collapse under Pinochet IIRC. He got voted out.

So, again, not convinced here that democratic liberty really affects a country's capitalist market and ability to improve itself. Seems more like just balancing economic decisions, which vary per country based on their resources, positions, etc. After all, it was US style economic theories (Chicago Boys) that caused the economic depression in Chile in the early 80s.
 

Swauny Jones

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,863
"I don't wanna give NYT a click..."

The anti-NYT attacks on this forum/community are so weird. Its like you're proud of your Trump-like Know Nothingism.

Like usual, NYT's investigative pieces are enormous and very well done. I'm probably like a 1/20th into it, but it's typically excellent work from the NYT.

Today's article does not extend nearly enough criticism to Xi Jingpin (practically zero criticism, part of it reads as government-like propaganda) and Chinese authoritarianism, but tomorrow's article is titled "Part 2: How to Control Your Citizens: Opportunity. Nationalism. Fear." which I'd imagine will go into more depth.



No, hundreds of millions of people don't have feasible access to modern medicine that the West has had access to since after World War II. Somewhere over 95% of the country has health insurance from the government, but not realistic access to modern medicine, as about ~40% of Chinese live in rural areas, and those rural areas do not have what anybody in the West would consider sanitary, safe, or modern medicine. Clean water and sanitary sewers are still a major problem in China, let alone sanitary hospitals, clinics, doctors, or access to modern medicine.

But it's difficult for outside groups to document this or to report on the scale of detrimental health care in China. The government has this propaganda/policy program called "Healthy China 2020" which I'm sure will just be declared a success.

1. They don't believe in half the Medicinal practices that happen out here in the West
2. Detroit anyone?!? an issue that still hasn't been fixed and nobody is talking about it anymore
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,536
I actually agree with your central thesis so this isn't really a response to your post, but I think you are underselling the extent to which China has improved in quality of life over the last few decades. It is not simply a numbers thing; the argument that quality of life has perceptibly improved is not tied to the GDP. It's somewhat beyond the scope of what I'm willing to do for a forum post to elaborate on this point in a truly rigorous way, but I will just indicate as a starting point the fact that, in 1990, China's HDI was right on the line between the low- and medium- development categories, and that today it is firmly in the high category.

EDIT: For what it's worth, I tried to find another country that had achieved a rate of change on HDI as high as China did from 1990 to today, and I couldn't find one. There are a few that came close (Iran, Singapore, Vietnam, Bangladesh), but China's ~.250 change topped them all.

Oh, for sure and I agree, I didn't mean to downplay the insane economic progress that China has seen over the last 20-30 years, but more or less advocating that long term, capitalism and liberal democracy have been more successful together at raising people out of poverty. China, though, could very well permanently disrupt that narrative but... I kind of doubt they will. Historically, Illiberalism tends to not breed long term societal success, without some sort of check.

FWIW, the NYT has a companion piece to that in the OP addressing the incredible growth at the human level over the last 20 years:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/18/world/asia/china-social-mobility.html
 

Swauny Jones

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,863
Oh, for sure and I agree, I didn't mean to downplay the insane economic progress that China has seen over the last 20-30 years, but more or less advocating that long term, capitalism and liberal democracy have been more successful together at raising people out of poverty. China, though, could very well permanently disrupt that narrative but... I kind of doubt they will. Historically, Illiberalism tends to not breed long term societal success, without some sort of check.

FWIW, the NYT has a companion piece to that in the OP addressing the incredible growth at the human level over the last 20 years:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/18/world/asia/china-social-mobility.html

This is a great read. I read this article this morning.
 

Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
If you want to make this about numbers I hope you've done your research. A minimum of 23 million people (up to 55 million) died in the Great Leap Forward alone. Between 1 and 10 million died in the following Cultural Revolution.

China currently brutally occupies a sovereign nation (Tibet), has thousands and thousands of their Muslim minorities in extermination and reeducation camps, allows their citizens no civil rights, and forces the disappearances (executes) dissidents and the politically inconvenient.

So please tell me how the US has a worse human rights record.
Do slavery, native genocide, and the wars in the Middle East not count?
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
My argument is pretty clear from the first sentence of my post: Equivocating between the United States, or any Western country, and China is ignorant and lacks perspective.

It was a rebuttal to the handful of posts in this thread (and usually others) that equivocate between an authoritarian dictatorship and a liberal democracy, usually from the perspective that the liberal democracy is "just as bad" as the illiberal authoritarian dictatorship.

But, beyond that, no, I wouldn't argue that China should or could have magically had an American/Western constitutional democracy.

Although I do think that liberalism is better than illiberalism, and that the Chinese people would be better off with a more liberal society and government, yes.
Whataboutism is a shit argument, I agree, but I think you respond to it by pointing that out, but by dishing a different, better wahtaboutism argument.
So like China's tap water situation is pretty bad regardless of what going on in flint, unless the argument is that it's an unsolvable problem that no country can solve (which is obviously silly) it kinda besides the point.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,765
Oh, for sure and I agree, I didn't mean to downplay the insane economic progress that China has seen over the last 20-30 years, but more or less advocating that long term, capitalism and liberal democracy have been more successful together at raising people out of poverty. China, though, could very well permanently disrupt that narrative but... I kind of doubt they will. Historically, Illiberalism tends to not breed long term societal success, without some sort of check.

FWIW, the NYT has a companion piece to that in the OP addressing the incredible growth at the human level over the last 20 years:

https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2018/11/18/world/asia/china-social-mobility.html
I struggle to find examples of situations where capitalism and liberal democracy together have operated to alleviate countries out of poverty in the long-term without massive caveats that really call the validity of the whole statement into question.

For starters, most of the nations you'd pick as examples of rich liberal democracies have to be disqualified at the door because they were already rich and/or relatively liberal when they made the transition. Can you really attribute the comparatively low level of poverty in England to it being a liberal democracy? How do you apportion its success in light of the fact that these countries were already winners on the world stage? It is logically coherent to suggest that these countries were simply pressing a preexisting advantage.

The next most common set of countries that come up in these discussions is the countries that exited World War II very poor and are now very rich, like the four Asian tigers and Japan. All of those countries (with the possible exception of Singapore) received a lot of outside help. In a sense, their economic recovery was geopolitically necessary. Would Japan's economy have recovered without the anti-capitalist American policies that gave their products an unnatural advantage in the world marketplace? Would Hong Kong be recognizable today if it didn't happen to be owned and operated by a major world power instead of its considerably poorer next-door neighbor? What also makes these countries bad examples is the fact that they are relatively illiberal, at least by western standards.

There are also a lot of countries who directly dispute the notion by being free, liberal and poor. The examples here are limitless (I have already mentioned India in this thread). There are countries that are doing relatively well but are becoming less liberal (Poland). And, of course, there are countries that are growing rapidly despite despite falling far from the model of the liberal democracy (China, Vietnam, Indonesia, etc.).

I think everyone should be living in a liberal democracy, but I think the idea that being liberal and free will raise you out of poverty to be specious. These are difficult viewpoints to reconcile and I don't really have an answer; this is more just me testing the hypothesis. I tend to believe these days that the causation as it is conventionally understood is backwards: It is not liberal democracies that breed economic prosperity; it is economic prosperity that breeds liberal democracies.
 

Chikor

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
14,239
Funny how South Korea, which has similarly improved living standards in the same time frame is not held a a shining example despite much more transparent and free democratic institutions.
South Korea only became a democracy in the 90s and did most of it meteoric growth under strong central planning. Shit, they had five years plan until the late 90s. Their economic playbook actually has quite a lot of similarities with what China did.
 

Fugu

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,765
South Korea only became a democracy in the 90s and did most of it meteoric growth under strong central planning. Shit, they had five years plan until the late 90s. Their economic playbook actually has quite a lot of similarities with what China did.
They also had a degree of outside help not seen in China. What makes China's growth particularly remarkable is that it seemed to occur in spite of the geopolitical implications, not because of them.
 

The Albatross

Member
Oct 25, 2017
39,536
Whataboutism is a shit argument, I agree, but I think you respond to it by pointing that out, but by dishing a different, better wahtaboutism argument.
So like China's tap water situation is pretty bad regardless of what going on in flint, unless the argument is that it's an unsolvable problem that no country can solve (which is obviously silly) it kinda besides the point.

My post is the opposite of whataboutism. I'm arguably against equivocating by giving an example of a false equivocation, saying "This is stupid," not dismissing arguments against China or Flint because of China or Flint. I think you misunderstood my original post because you missed the first sentence, and now you're doubling down on picking nits about a conversation other people are having is not "on point."

When you say that this conversation other people (me, others, not you) are having is "besides the point," ... So, what is the point that this conversation other people are having around you is besides? Put another way, what point should I (and others) be responding to that you think is a more appropriate point to be discussing here?
 

Deleted member 17092

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Oct 27, 2017
20,360
ZOONAMI was arguing that the US has had a worse human rights record since World War II than China.

I never spefically made that argument with a timeframe attached. I just said it's kind of odd when folks from the US shit all over China based on human rights when there are 2 million people in jail and the US has been the principal exporter of global violence since wwii. I guess it's a rather useless debate. It's good that China has brought so many out of poverty. All the shit they pull is terrible, but I don't think that means the nyt can't write an article about the Chinese economy. If a European publication wrote an article on the US economy no one would be up in arms if said article didn't have a big asterisk on it explaining all of the terrible shit the US does.
 
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Deleted member 135

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Oct 25, 2017
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If you include foreign intervention it absolutely does and it's not even close.
The Occupation of Tibet is foreign intervention.

Human rights record isn't just one thing or the other, it's the entire thing. Overall it is undeniable that China has a humans rights record of magnitudes worse than the United States, hell their people don't even have rights to begin with.
 

gozu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,442
America
Ok experiment time! Please answer this poll question

Would you sell your right to vote and free speech in exchange for quadrupling your salary?

Don't just answer. Do the math in your head, figure out your new budget, and ponder exactly what your life would be like...

Fun fact! The number is actually higher than quadrupling in the last 50 years. Chinese people have seen their salaries almost triple in the last 10 years alone!

Yeah, i know. It's fucked up.
 
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Nome

Designer / Self-requested ban
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,312
NYC
The Occupation of Tibet is foreign intervention.

Human rights record isn't just one thing or the other, it's the entire thing. Overall it is undeniable that China has a humans rights record of magnitudes worse than the United States, hell their people don't even have rights to begin with.
I mean you're not entirely wrong, but I guess you can't oppress a native population after you've already killed them all.
 

Menx64

Member
Oct 30, 2017
5,774
It is sad that people instead of reading the article, just come to the thread to talk about who's country is worse than the other. The article is talking about the Chinese miracle, and for all means, it is very interesting and worth checking since there are lots of huge countries with huge populations in poverty.

India, Mexico, Nigeria, Indonesia, Pakistan between others should study and try to apply all of the good aspects of what China did, obviously without falling into the human right abuses or the totalitarian governments.

The article talks about the Chinese abuses to minorities and kidnappings, but the focus is the Chinese miracle.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
Ok experiment time! Please answer this poll question

Would you sell your right to vote and free speech in exchange for quadrupling your salary?

Don't just answer. Do the math in your head, figure out your new budget, and ponder exactly what your life would be like...

Fun fact! The number is actually higher than quadrupling. Chinese people have seen their salaries almost triple in the last 10 years.

Yeah, i know. It's fucked up.

Tripling is more than quadrupling how?
 

gozu

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
10,442
America
Tripling is more than quadrupling how?

I edited my post several times as I was googling (to make sure I didn't fuck up) and things were not as clear as they should've been.

Salaries almost tripled since 2008.

Over the last 30 years (one generation: IE, father compared to son), salaries have more than quadrupled.

Please feel free to check my number. Actually I urge you to. You'll be shocked. I guarantee it.

Now answer my question: would you sell your democratic rights for quadrupling your salary. Yes or no.