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Stardestroyer

Member
Oct 31, 2017
1,819
As to the litmus test I had mentioned yesterday. Yes Kamala Harris was and probably still is a hardline prosecutor instead of a public defender. She might not be progressive enough for many in era but she has the electability factor while being liberal enough to be a competent president and in fact be a great president given her views beyond. Her hardline prosecution might not play well with the left of left of democrats but for most of the electorate it is normal course for being a prosecutor who is admittedly hardline. Her numbers are high among Hispanic folks and Black folks. Her numbers are high among independents who you need to defeat Trump handily.

You cannot chose a candidate who is barely going to win you need a candidate who is definitely going to win and you need folks like Harris, Klobacher, Biden and Beto who might not be Kumbaya with left folks but they are primed to attract the folks you need to win elections while being democratic enough to be progressive overall. I don't know why that is hard to understand.

In this election you need a candidate from your head not your heart. Compromises on progressive ideals have to be made because the electorate is not progressive enough for someone like Elizabeth Warren or Bernie Sanders. You are going against a nut, falling in line republicans and an independent electorate who will vote for Trump unless they find inspiration from the democratic candidate.

You can send a moderate candidate with heavy baggage and lose
You can send a candidate who is too progressive for electorate and lose

Or you can send a candidate who is not baggage heavy for all electorate and is an attractive opposition against Trump and GOP
Just because you don't care about her baggage doesn't mean she doesn't have baggage. Democrats like you are just as bad as the conservatives.

Conservatives don't even pretend to care about minorities as much as some democrats do.

If you want to vote for Kamala harris you go right ahead no one can stop you, but get off the soapbox and don't pretend like you don't know why some group of people like not like an opportunist like kamala Harris.
 

OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857
the democratic party has repeated this line for decades now. it doesn't work.

telling people to shut up, lower their expectations, and just vote against the evil republicans is morally bankrupt and a losing strategy to boot.
I think folks like her are higher expectation than any of the other more progressive candidate because they are more likely to win and get you in a position to get Supreme Court seats and federal judges along with other legislation as opposed to left of left with low chances of winning the electoral map.

Realistically which candidate apart from Biden, Beto, Harris and Klobacher and even Gillibrand to some extent have a winning chance with assurity of going beyond 270 electoral points


Just because you don't care about her baggage doesn't mean she doesn't have baggage. Democrats like you are just as bad as the conservatives.

Conservatives don't even pretend to care about minorities as much as some democrats do.

If you want to vote for Kamala harris you go right ahead no one can stop you, but get off the soapbox and don't pretend like you don't know why some group of people like not like an opportunist like kamala Harris.

Tell me which candidate you think from democratic side from the ones slated to run will surely win vs Trump on the electoral map

So far the not progressive enough crowd says : Kamala is too hardline on her prosecution cases, Biden is too old and too establishment, Beto is too conservative in his voting record , Klobacher is too unknown and Gillibrand is not popular enough among liberal base . So on the truly progressive candidates who can win 270 with assurity
 
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danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,251
Sydney
I think folks like her are higher expectation than any of the other more progressive candidate because they are more likely to win and get you in a position to get Supreme Court seats and federal judges along with other legislation as opposed to left of left with low chances of winning the electoral map.

Realistically which candidate apart from Biden, Beto, Harris and Klobacher and even Gillibrand to some extent have a winning chance with assurity of going beyond 270 electoral points

Tell me which candidate you think from democratic side from the ones slated to run will surely win vs Trump on the electoral map

We don't know who is most likely to win yet, this is putting the cart in front of the horse. This is why there's a primary.
 

OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857
We don't know who is most likely to win yet, this is putting the cart in front of the horse. This is why there's a primary.

You can already see who is more likely to attract independents to get an idea and swing over never trumpers. That's what you need correct ? Blue dogs/independents and disgruntled republicans to cross 270

Every candidate has their cons.

My point is : you cannot go with electing the most progressive because potus elections cannot be won with this electorate. You have to chose the most electable candidate who at the same time is progressive ENOUGH to win your vote even if he or she is not perfect
 
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Aeron

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,156
It's ridiculous how people have hand picked who they want as president already based on shit like how they talk, how they appear, can they say the right things?

Whilst those things are good to have on the surface level, helps sell to people that they're "presidential".
It's disgraceful that actual history, ideology and policy seemingly doesn't matter and discussion of it is met with a big "whatever" and hand waving shit just to keep your ideal image of the candidate you've already hitched your wagon to safe.

Cult of personality rearing its head yet again.
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,251
Sydney
You can already see who is more likely to attract independents to get an idea and swing over never trumpers. That's what you need correct ? Blue dogs/independents and disgruntled republicans to cross 270

There's no consensus that's the right strategy though.

My point is : you cannot go with electing the most progressive because potus elections cannot be won with this electorate. You have to chose the most electable candidate who at the same time is progressive ENOUGH to win your vote even if he or she is not perfect

Again we are putting the cart before the horse here. The primary is designed to figure out who this candidate is, you can't just say candidate X or Y is the most electable and backfill in the process.
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,898
I think folks like her are higher expectation than any of the other more progressive candidate because they are more likely to win and get you in a position to get Supreme Court seats and federal judges along with other legislation as opposed to left of left with low chances of winning the electoral map.

Realistically which candidate apart from Biden, Beto, Harris and Klobacher and even Gillibrand to some extent have a winning chance with assurity of going beyond 270 electoral points




Tell me which candidate you think from democratic side from the ones slated to run will surely win vs Trump on the electoral map

So far the not progressive enough crowd says : Kamala is too hardline on her prosecution cases, Biden is too old and too establishment, Beto is too conservative in his voting record , Klobacher is too unknown and Gillibrand is not popular enough among liberal base . So on the truly progressive candidates who can win 270 with assurity
.......Expecting an elected official to not push anti-black policies is somehow too much to ask from a so-called progressive Dem???

The fuck kinda weak ass defense is this?
 

OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857
It's ridiculous how people have hand picked who they want as president already based on shit like how they talk, how they appear, can they say the right things?

Whilst those things are good to have on the surface level, helps sell to people that they're "presidential".
It's disgraceful that actual history, ideology and policy seemingly doesn't matter and discussion of it is met with a big "whatever" and hand waving shit just to keep your ideal image of the candidate you've already hitched your wagon to safe.

Cult of personality rearing its head yet again.
There's no consensus that's the right strategy though.



Again we are putting the cart before the horse here. The primary is designed to figure out who this candidate is, you can't just say candidate X or Y is the most electable and backfill in the process.

I agree the candidate is chosen through the primary and we have seen primaries chosing wrong candidates in the past few decades for both parties because they chose candidates which did not work for the electorate map. The point is which is actually a suggestion that you can get a pretty good idea which set of 4-5 candidates which will be electable and which 4-5 will not be.
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,422
@ people saying 2020 is going to be ugly because candidates are being vetted and asked to answer for their past actions: How old are y'all? Was 2016 your first rodeo?
 

danm999

Member
Oct 29, 2017
17,251
Sydney
I agree the candidate is chosen through the primary and we have seen primaries chosing wrong candidates in the past few decades for both parties because they chose candidates which did not work for the electorate map. The point is which is actually a suggestion that you can get a pretty good idea which set of 4-5 candidates which will be electable and which 4-5 will not be.

People thought before the 2016 GOP primary it was going to be Jeb, Rubio or Cruz.

People thought before the 2008 Democratic Primary Clinton was a shoe in and her only real competition was Edwards.

Actually running these primaries often upsets the wisdom of who the actual front runners are, and who will be the most electable.
 
Nov 20, 2017
793
I quite like her. I didn't know about any of this and it takes a bit of the shine off it. I thought she was outright Presidential during the SC Nomination circus.
 

Midramble

Force of Habit
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
10,481
San Francisco
Get all the skeletons out now. Tear everybody up. Bare it all so we can nail down primary picks. As soon as that primary is basically done. Everyone drop your pitchforks and get in line. We all need to push together when it's time to face the other side. No bench sitting.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 15440

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
4,191
You can already see who is more likely to attract independents to get an idea and swing over never trumpers. That's what you need correct ? Blue dogs/independents and disgruntled republicans to cross 270

Every candidate has their cons.

My point is : you cannot go with electing the most progressive because potus elections cannot be won with this electorate. You have to chose the most electable candidate who at the same time is progressive ENOUGH to win your vote even if he or she is not perfect
this is the entire argument for hillary

nobody who talks about electability at this point should be listened to because they don't know what that is

donald trump is president and socialists are the most popular members of congress. anything goes! reach for the fucking stars!
 

Malverde

One Winged Slayer
Avenger
Harris was never going to be my first choice precisely because of this bullshit. But a good apology, acknowledgement of damage caused and plan for reform would go a long way. She knows this is her biggest hurdle and is running anyway, so I have to believe she has something in mind.
 

Servbot24

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
43,362
Here comes the 'not good enough' train. Making frequent, looping stops at Kristen Gillibrand, Beto O'Rourke and every single other prospective Democratic candidate until the 2020 election.
Exactly this. A giant competition to out-moral eachother until the voter base is tired unmotivated and complacent. Meanwhile GOP will continue electing rapists and climate change deniers.
 

Orayn

Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,040
Exactly this. A giant competition to out-moral eachother until the voter base is tired unmotivated and complacent. Meanwhile GOP will continue electing rapists and climate change deniers.
Got it, let's have no standards whatsoever and just railroad Hillary 2.0 into another loss, it's the only way
 

Tfritz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,422
Got it, let's have no standards whatsoever and just railroad Hillary 2.0 into another loss, it's the only way

i mean clinton faced nonstop criticism but ended up being the candidate because she won the primaries by every conceivable metric so that's not really railroading
 

Lo-Volt

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,436
Philadelphia
It would really be nice if prosecutors, and the entire criminal justice system, cared more about "did this guy actually do it" than technicalities. The letter of the law is surely important, but the spirit does too. Suppressing evidence and objecting to a possible reversal because of the scorecard is unjust, but Kamala Harris isn't the only prosecutor who could have an allegation like this lodged against them. So maybe the Democrats need not nominate an ex-prosecutor for 2020. Considering the potential slate of candidates, they could probably find someone who doesn't have this hanging over their heads.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
What's a reasonable amount of innocents being railroaded through the justice system we should tolerate as a "standard"?

I'm all for "reasonable standards" but "reasonable" is a vague word. Give me an acceptable number for wrongfully incarcerated persons. I assume it's higher than 1, and even I, dyed in the wool with purity tests as I am, has to admit a single wrongful conviction could be counterbalanced by a bunch of other stuff though it gives me no pleasure to play this game of numbers. Just going by the NYT piece her bodycount is at least 4, is this "reasonable"?

If she were to bring forth the argument that as President, she would personally pardon every one of these shady convictions in her first week in office I'd feel a lot better about her though I question the viability or moral integrity of such a gambit.
 

divination

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,003
How Kamala decides to answer and/or atone for her history as AG will be the deciding factor in whether or not her candidacy takes off.

Primary season here we go!
 

TwinBahamut

Member
Jun 8, 2018
1,360
Reasonable standards are great

A standard of not prosecuting progressively enough is decidedly not great
Why isn't that a decent standard?

I mean, she didn't even support Prop 47, one of the biggest things California voters have done to fight against racist and unfair sentencing in the last several decades, freeing thousands of people suffering unfair sentences and saving the state millions of dollars better spent helping people. You'd think it should be easy for a leader of a progressive party to support something so fair and popular.
 
Jun 10, 2018
8,898
"I wanted to get fascists out of the federal govt, sure, just not at the expense of electing someone who supports single payer and a $15 minimum wage and legalizing marijuana but also made decisions I disagreed with as an AG."

Translation: The suffering of black/brown individuals caused by one's antagonistic policies is inconsequential to the critique of their candidacy.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
And she is corrupt too ?

Er wait, what's all this if it's not corruption. I think there's a semantic disagreement here.
Ms. Harris was criticized in 2010 for withholding information about a police laboratory technician who had been accused of "intentionally sabotaging" her work and stealing drugs from the lab. After a memo surfaced showing that Ms. Harris's deputies knew about the technician's wrongdoing and recent conviction, but failed to alert defense lawyers, a judge condemned Ms. Harris's indifference to the systemic violation of the defendants' constitutional rights.
In 2015, when the case reached the United States Court of Appeals for the Ninth Circuit in San Francisco, Ms. Harris's prosecutors defended the conviction. They pointed out that Mr. Gage, while forced to act as his own lawyer, had not properly raised the legal issue in the lower court, as the law required.

The appellate judges acknowledged this impediment and sent the case to mediation, a clear signal for Ms. Harris to dismiss the case. When she refused to budge, the court upheld the conviction on that technicality. Mr. Gage is still in prison serving a 70-year sentence.

That case is not an outlier. Ms. Harris also fought to keep Daniel Larsen in prison on a 28-year-to-life sentence for possession of a concealed weapon even though his trial lawyer was incompetent and there was compelling evidence of his innocence. Relying on a technicality again, Ms. Harris argued that Mr. Larsen failed to raise his legal arguments in a timely fashion. (This time, she lost.)

She also defended Johnny Baca's conviction for murder even though judges found a prosecutor presented false testimony at the trial. She relented only after a video of the oral argument received national attention and embarrassed her office.

And then there's Kevin Cooper, the death row inmate whose trial was infected by racism and corruption. He sought advanced DNA testing to prove his innocence, but Ms. Harris opposed it. (After The New York Times's exposé of the case went viral, she reversed her position.)
She uses legal technicalities and the letter of the law to shore up her judicially oppressive decisions which destroys lives, all with the shrewdness you'd expect of a career prosecutor. She reverses course when it's politically expedient to do so or when the backlash becomes too great to deflect.

You're not going to go with the "it's the law that's broken, not Harris" defense are you?
 

OtherWorldly

Banned
Dec 3, 2018
2,857
Did you read the article?

Shes a garbage candidate.

I mean sure, just like Hillary I'd vote for her in the general, but there is not a thing in this world that would get me to vote for her in a primary.

Thankfully I don't think that is the opinion for most of the primary voters who are more more nuanced and calculating in their decision to make sure a winnable candidate is chosen. For the most part. Some exceptions apply.

This will all be clear once candidates start to answer questions and we can weed those who are truly hopeless at that point
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
"Most primary voters are nuanced and calculating"

"What corruption I don't see any... corruption"
 
Jan 15, 2019
4,490
Translation: The suffering of black/brown individuals caused by one's antagonistic policies is inconsequential to the critique of their candidacy.
Nah, it's not inconsequential. But refusing to vote for "a cop", as the other poster mentioned, because you didn't like her actions as AG means that we definitely won't get single payer passed, which would save tens of thousands of black/brown individual's lives annually, and we probably won't get marijuana legalized either, which would keep a significant number of black/brown people out of the criminal justice system. So I really fail to see how refusing to support her candidacy should she become the nominee is any way beneficial to people of color, especially considering the alternative being another four years of Trump who is locking brown kids in cages.

I get holding candidate's accountable for their actions and all that. What I don't get is saying that Kamala is so bad that you would risk a 2nd term of Trump to avoid a Harris presidency. That puts far more black/brown/LGBT+ lives on the line than anything I could imagine Kamala doing as president.
 

samoyed

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
15,191
Well we know the real reason: "It was a good career move"

Her test in the primary will be spinning her career moves into some semblance of integrity.