Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,334
With the recent release of the Side Order DLC that adds a roguelite to Splatoon 3, the trend of the moment, the single player package of Splatoon 3 has become a pretty robust package rarely seen in the genre, and that's great to see.

And increasingly I find that's an important thing to my enjoyment of the franchise, because I truly feel now that at this point in time, the multiplayer side of Splatoon, the actual main event of the package, feels often flawed at a base level in numerous ways and has lost the appeal it had as a more casual online multiplayer offering.

Get ready for some Splatoon scrub quotes and potentially flawed grousings, because as the latest season and probably one of the last big content updates for S3 drops, I can't hold back no more!

Let's start with the following...


- The default game mode Turf War is a mess

Surely the marquee mode based around simply painting floors, where you can feasibly aid your team without needing to be a crackshot or engaging with opponents much at all, is a breezy casual mode right?
WRONG
There's a number of reasons for this, one of which will get its own segment next, but for now, let me tell you how like a man who does not learn from history and is doomed to repeat it, each time I step back into S3, be it a new season, a splat fest or just after some months away, I figure I'll get my bearings in turf war first, maybe try and those new weapons and stages, simple logical stuff I'm sure instead of stepping into ranked modes.
And each time I find myself in the most oppressive games the series has to offer, I don't know if looser matchmaking is to blame, heck I think it's a whole bunch of things that I will get around to, but if I'm gonna find myself oppressively trapped in spawn by a crack squid squad of Japanese players, it's right here in turf war, and to help explain this I'll move onto the complimenting second point...


- The map design is frequently kinda shit


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Y'know, sometimes I put on some really rose tinted nostalgia splat goggles and think back to Splatoon 1 where we only had 5 stages to kick off with from memory, and as I recall public enemy number 1 here was Arowana Mall. See the thing with the mall was that it presented a very narrow stage with limited flanking routes, it was a middle of the map ruck of attrition, not a bad thing to exist as a way to differentiate between say the openness of saltpray rig or the finely tuned Splatoon 101 map that was Walleye Warehouse.

So why the heck does that funnel into killbox design motif seem to be the inspiration for Splatoon 3 in general? when you're making me appreciate Overwatch map design then something has truly gone wrong. This game's default starter map that's the baseline for the entire game, can be opressed and locked down by one guy holding a gatling gun on the central pillar.

At some point this series seemed to give up on flanking routes, paths hidden from immediate view and wields its symmetrical map design as a kudgel to beat you into a centre of the field standoff, where the winners set up and overwatch your spawn and any inky residue that might indicate a player coming down one of the very few and very blatant sidepaths.
So going back to the whole turf war gimmick, a key thing to me should be the ability to get around the map in multiple ways and ink areas that break your opponents stronghold placement by sheer necessity of them having to get their arses moving and prevent your territorial gains off to the side or even (gasp) in their half of the map.
Obviously the bigger the map, the more chances you have to actually make moves like this, yet I can't help but feel that even in the biggest maps, the visiblity of the terrain is just so obvious that the opposing team would need to be playing blind to not notice any ground being lost. A casualty of not having a gamepad devoted to a map maybe?
This funnelled map design then in turn leads into the spawn camping situations, outranged by a charger overlooking your spawn area while you've got a brush or roller to try and make moves with? yeah good luck buddy, if only there was some kind of special move you could use to help turn the tables...


- Special Moves favour the players leading

On paper, the fact players gain special meter by inking turf means that it should work somewhat as a comeback mechanic as the leaders have less area to make gains here while the rest have a map full of meter gain, yes, on paper.
For some reason Splatoon thinks that it's a great idea to just obliterate your special meter build upon being splatted, to me this is like if dying in Overwatch wheeled back your ultimate meter, absolute insanity.
We're back to that whole lack of flanking routes issue, as all inked roads lead back to the centre hotspot that new meter gain doesn't amount to much if you can't build it by being boxed in, pinned down, or just straight blasted down again. On that note, the other team will be making special meter gains by keeping you at bay, the rich get richer, the poor get poorer.

And that's without going into the specials in general, the zipcaster seems like a cool way to create your own flanking path, but seemingly to keep it "balanced" or something, it lasts like 5 seconds and sends you right back to where you started once it times out, less a full repositioning tool and more a try to assassinate someone in a tight time window, or dribble a small ink puddle in their half of the map before being launched back into the firing line of the opposing team's crab tank pressure.


- There's no good way to change your tactics or adapt mid-match


Okay here's a tough one to potentially tackle, it needs to be said though.
So you load up your match, you've got a 50/50 chance of landing on one of two available maps (yes, they're still using this dumbass system), one could favour your weapon choice, the other might not, so already we're running into a potential problem.
Then you see your team, hey, that's guy has the same weapon as you! and that gal has one within the same classification, we're three rollers and I dunno, some octoling with a blaster
The other team is revealed, packing a well rounded selection of weapon types and specials, there was nothing you could or can do about any of this, maybe try to console yourself by making Fred Durst proud by singing Rollin to yourself.

the-opposite-team-here-was-all-rollers-lol-battle-code-is-v0-cl14juiuep9a1.jpg

TELL ME WHAT YOU'RE GONNA DO NOW?

You don't know which map you're heading to, you don't know your team, you don't know your opponents and you sure as heck can't switch any weapons mid game
You thought you could be a balanced team of squids, in an unbalanced matchmaking scenario, but you were wrong, the only thing you have is CHANCE

It's taken until game number 3 for the devs to finally let players change weapons between matches without ending matchmaking entirely, this is how stubborn they are with the idea of changing your approach. And I'm very aware that simply saying "let us change weapons mid match goddamnit" is not a quick fix, surely though, there's something that could be done here? being able to have two loadouts but you can only swap at spawn maybe?
Speaking of loadouts....


- Both casually and competitively, making your build is a clusterfuck

Presumably in the name of balance, your sub weapon and special weapon are hardlocked to your chosen main weapon, over the course of the game's lifespan the dev team dripfeed a second variant of each weapon with a different loadout, but that's all you're getting, so if you're an absolute mug like me who just wants to make the perpetually underpowered undercover brella actually work, your options are already limited to the devs vision, I waited years for a variant and all I got was this slow moving gimmick wall.
Straight up I think there needs to be a complete rethink of how subs and specials are handled in an inevitable Splatoon 4 (in general, my hottest take is that Splat 4 needs a refresh full stop at a base level not even just related to my bitching here but that's another story).
If nothing else, having more options than two, where the second loudout might be a year and a half away from the games release would be a start.
Like, even a super sweaty competitive shooter like Rainbow Six Siege will drop in a new operator with nuemrous options within their given weapon limitations, Splatoon handles this in an even more limited fashion and in such a roundabout way to boot.

And then there's your buffs, forcibly attached to your clothing
Here's where it sucks casually (and competitively for optimising but let me talk drip first)
It goes without saying, but for a game that plays up fashion so highly, you want to rock the clothes that express your style, you don't want to say force yourself to wear something else entirely because Ninja Squid is locked to other less appealing gear, or the piece of clothing you like is stuck with quick respawn while you're kinda hoping to not be dying enough to actually need it.
Alas this is splatoon 3 and we're still stuck trying to balance our fashion with in game function...why?
The sub abilities for a piece of attire have this initially randomised but grindable to get what you want formula available, so there's a bit of personal choice in here, just handled in a completely overcomplicated and tedious manner.

Pay this currency to drink something to increase the odds of this one ability being rolled by the roulette? grind out levels on clothing and create enough "chunks" to make one slot yourself? wait, first pay this other currency type to increase the slot spaces on your gear because that one thing you like wasn't blessed as three star worthy...
Nintendo, what in the freemium currency fuck is all this? casual shooter my arse, this series has been incresaingly clogged with currency clutter, don't forget your limited time pre splatfest only shells for the gacha machine, yes, really.
Anyone who comes in here like "but the GRIND for OPTIMISATION is what keeps me playing" can jog on, you play because the game is fun, not because you want to fill bars, don't worry, we've got other bars to fill...


- The level and battle pass exp gain difference between wins and losses is incredibly lopsided

Okay nothing new here, games aren't all about rewarding us me for blowing chunks, greater gains for wins makes sense, but did ya have to make losing extra demotivating?

1djNQF.gif


Games rocking battle passes tend to have ways to give players exp outside of just winning, partly because y'know, only one person wins a Fortnite battle royale, that aside you've got weekly tasks and dailies, that come with their own issues sure like dictating how someone might play, nothing like a guy tanking your team in a game because they gotta hit their daily quota of some task that isn't all that beneficial to the game being played, but I digress, again.

Splatoon 3 finds itself adopting a free BP formula (so thanks for that at least) but offering few ways to move up the catalog outside wins, I think Salmon run can pay into it so you can at least PvE instead of PvP, on the whole though it's lacking.

Some games are even cool enough dudes (well, as cool as forcing us on a BP grind can be at least, as in, not very) to let some single player content factor into BP exp, now that Splatoon 3 has a roguelite and also its incredibly underrated card game, they could have those play into some exp gain each week surely? one of the secret sauces for Splatoon 3 as a whole to me was how its multiple avenues of play to bounce around the modes available, something the game itself could help push.
Side note: the salmon run exclusive items are booty butt cheeks, and probably the most unholy grind in the game on top of that, so let me just get that dig in here.


---

To break up the text, please enjoy this random frye quote
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I've typed enough poster repeling text that the era spellcheck has given up the ghost, so let me wrap up with the following.
I feel like splatoon is a series that should be more popular than it is, oh sure it has the sales, japan love it and seem to factor into most of those sales, here on era though I feel like it's been increasingly shrinking in mindshare as each game releases and I'm not surprised honestly.
What was once seen as having the potential to be the "mario kart" of online shooters and boasted a fresh and elegant core game design, is now fairly stagnant and increasingly less casual friendly. I shit you not when I say I find playing this game online sweatier than any of the other current shooters I play, and this is the one that's supposed to be the non threatening Nintendo one
A lot of stubborn sticking to the dev teams conventions desite incremental changes (everything about the weapon shop, or why do I have to listen to entire splatfest results I might not have event played a part in? etc) or outdated design no doubt playing a part in that, along with the ever limited Nintendo online infastructure, who wants a shoddy tickrate in your twitchy shooter?

My feeling is that the series has never truly followed up on the potential of splatoon 1, and the multiplayer itself is arguably regressing while barely expanding in any interesting ways, and despite all this Splatoon 3 is pretty great, it's just I'm way more impressed with everything outside its multiplayer at this point which seems to go against the real goal of the series.
 

Aleh

Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,268
You're goddamn right. The next Splatoon needs to do away with all the quirky management nonsense. And LET US SKIP THE BROADCAST EVEN IF THERE ARE SPLATFESTS OR EVENT STUFF. Every time I boot up the game after a long time I have to spend 15 minutes mashing through text. Deranged.
 

Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
18,676
I can agree with some of this. I like Arowana Mall, but I wouldn't compare it to 3's map designs. Which are getting better at least.

My things are the limitations feeling so arbitrary. The timed maps selections. The time mode selections. How are you releasing a modern shooter with a lives system, that's so baffling to me. Salmon Run was a great idea and they realized the limited hours wasn't great, but then they still do it for other modes. I don't want to play Clam Blitz ever, but that's what you're presenting me with.

I'm mostly good on the gameplay, but for me its the game's entire structure where it's like, why are we doing this, STILL?! And then I don't really want to be in a position where we're complimenting each sequel for not pointlessly having its hands tied behind it's back as the last.

Also, Salmon Run can get way too hard for how much of a grind it is to get any reward there.

3 is the "best" in the sense that there are certain things about 2 that I wouldn't want to go back to (not couldn't), but I do find myself forgetting that it exists and that I own it.

But while I'm playing I am having fun, but the above criticisms are why I don't play it more.

It really does need to give up certain structural conventions and these shouldn't be drip fed in each sequel. Tho I don't think any of these changes would drastically increase the sales.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
31,389
The map complaint seems out of date to me given the 5 maps that have released in the last 3 seasons. The S-shape meme is largely because that's the primary way you can make a symmetrical map with set spawn points. It was somewhat valid in the period between Brinewater and Barnacle when the new maps were frankly a little boring, but no one is ever going to complain about how Crableg, Rom-en, and Marlin are all S-shaped. And certainly 3's selection of S-shaped maps are better than 2's. God forbid we ever return to the uninkable hellscapes of Goby and Albacore

I agree that gear builds are too difficult to make but they also barely matter unless you're actively playing the game competitively.

Otherwise it's the GOAT shooter, miles better than 2
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,135
The map complaint seems out of date to me given the 5 maps that have released in the last 3 seasons. The S-shape meme is largely because that's the primary way you can make a symmetrical map with set spawn points. It was somewhat valid in the period between Brinewater and Barnacle when the new maps were frankly a little boring, but no one is ever going to complain about how Crableg, Rom-en, and Marlin are all S-shaped. And certainly 3's selection of S-shaped maps are better than 2's. God forbid we ever return to the uninkable hellscapes of Goby and Albacore

I agree that gear builds are too difficult to make but they also barely matter unless you're actively playing the game competitively.

Otherwise it's the GOAT shooter, miles better than 2
It would be out of date if we had any way to select maps. As someone that doesn't really play 3 that much, anytime I come back to it I feel like I'm playing on many of the same maps from the first few months.

Splatoon 3 has some nice QoL changes over 2 (most of which should have been obvious decisions since the original game) but it really does just feel like DLC for 2, and I never say that about games. Almost all the new content in PvP feels like a downgrade as well.

As for the OP, I do agree with a lot of it, but also feel like a good amount of it only applies to turf war, which has always been the weakest mode anyway.
 

Deleted member 108302

Jan 29, 2022
592
I mainly play turf war and yeah a lot of the maps suck. The newer ones are better but the archaic "only 2 every 2 hours" system means odds are if I want to play the available maps will still suck. Splatoon 2 is my most played Switch game and while 3 is #2 its much less and I doubt it'll ever pass 2. I just don't play as much Splatoon now.

This plus how disappointing Side Order was makes me really question if Splatoon needed a new entry on Switch. I love Return of the Mammalians but I think if they expanded it a bit more it could've just been a standalone budget release (not that Nintendo does that often lol).

Oh and also I really hate the catalog. At some point I stopped paying attention to it. I think I only finished it the first 2 seasons. I barely got past 20 last season. I pretty much only log on for Splatfests and Big Runs now.

(in general, my hottest take is that Splat 4 needs a refresh full stop at a base level not even just related to my bitching here but that's another story).
I completely agree honestly.
 
OP
OP
Nocturnowl

Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,334
I wont quote Dyle anymore than he already has been, don't want to seem like we're cracking down on a dissenting opinion (this thread has been more receptive than I expected lol) and you're probably right that my map gripes are a touch outdated at least regarding newer maps.
But I'm gonna have to echo what Renna said, the way rotation works means that some maps I still haven't played, yet somehow, some way, the powers that be force me into Museum d'Alfonsino every other session I do play, and I now loathe that map more than any other.

Speaking of time locked things, the challenges they added should surely be available for an entire weekend and not a tiny window of a couple of hours on said weekend, stuff like this, I don't get it, it's not like the game is buried in playerbase splitting options for online.
 

KanameYuuki

Member
Dec 23, 2017
2,836
Colombia
I have yet to be able to give even 1 challenge a try, I can't believe they fixed SR stupid time slots only to then add super fun modes and have them be even more gated, Splatoon 3 is weird for me, I loved 2 and the series is the reason why I almost got a Wii U and bought a Switch but it's been months since I last played 3, before I would still play 2 from time to time, specially for fest but 3 themes are so boring why even bother, they really need to add a bigger map pool for each rotation and give people the option to vote for which map to play, hopefully for 4.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,209
This plus how disappointing Side Order was makes me really question if Splatoon needed a new entry on Switch. I love Return of the Mammalians but I think if they expanded it a bit more it could've just been a standalone budget release (not that Nintendo does that often lol).
I'd argue it "needed" a new entry, but probably not for reasons that aren't entirely franchise maintenance related. Splatoon has quickly ballooned into becoming Nintendo's second biggest multiplayer driven franchise. The problem with that is that there's no shortage of games in the genre that are vying for people's attention these days since there's always some huge multiplayer game around the corner that blows up, and letting go of a franchise's mindshare that got so big, so fast, would be monumentally misguided (the Call of Duty problem is a more extreme version of that, basically). The Switch 2 was at minimum 6 years away by the time support for Splatoon 2 dried up, and Splatoon 2 was already an ostensibly cobbled together update of Splatoon 1 to quickly ride the wave of the console and new franchise hype. Most likely Nintendo wanted to continue support for Splatoon, but Splatoon 2's technical backend was relatively antiquated and it would be difficult to keep building upon the game with only DLC budget; especially since Splatoon has had no other revenue sources within the game such as MTX.

Splatoon 3 has progressed enough to a point where it's sanded down enough micro-flaws of Splatoon 2's experience where the remaining macro-scaled flaws will continue to stand out, and it's the ones that have always been there from the start. I'm half convinced that Splatoon 4 is going to be a much more reinvented game since even the Splatoon 3 Direct at the time marked the game as a narrative conclusion, but I low-key worry whether or not this is going to become a "grass is always greener" situation by the time that happens. It's easy to forget that Splatoon 2 came out at a time before Fortnite Battle Royale changed the multiplayer landscape forever. Almost every big multiplayer game these days come baked in with MTX of some kind, and Splatoon is still one of the only ones where everything except a single player expansion is completely free. The content completeness of Splatoon 3 in terms of weapons, modes, and stages is well and truly strong at this point, and I don't know how sustainable it'll be in the future to keep going on this path, so for now I'm just enjoying it while it lasts.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
31,389
It would be out of date if we had any way to select maps. As someone that doesn't really play 3 that much, anytime I come back to it I feel like I'm playing on many of the same maps from the first few months.
That's just math, isn't it? 3 has 23 maps and 12 of them were there on day 1. The game slightly favors newer maps but with those numbers it's inevitable that the original 12 will be on about half of rotations.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,135
That's just math, isn't it? 3 has 23 maps and 12 of them were there on day 1. The game slightly favors newer maps but with those numbers it's inevitable that the original 12 will be on about half of rotations.
Yes, that's the math, which is also why the complaint isn't outdated. Also the first batch of maps we got in the first few months weren't great either.

So even if they released 5 great maps recently, and I wouldn't know since I've barely played them (and I have turned the game on recently) the basic setup of the game does a good job of negating that. If the game is going to have forced map rotation like this, it's a real bummer when half the maps are bad.

I will give them credit for mostly getting rid of mode rotation though, since there are 3 out of 4 modes in rotation at all times. Much better odds of playing what I want when that is the math.
 

TGB86

Member
Jan 27, 2021
1,321
I'd argue it "needed" a new entry, but probably not for reasons that aren't entirely franchise maintenance related. Splatoon has quickly ballooned into becoming Nintendo's second biggest multiplayer driven franchise. The problem with that is that there's no shortage of games in the genre that are vying for people's attention these days since there's always some huge multiplayer game around the corner that blows up, and letting go of a franchise's mindshare that got so big, so fast, would be monumentally misguided (the Call of Duty problem is a more extreme version of that, basically). The Switch 2 was at minimum 6 years away by the time support for Splatoon 2 dried up, and Splatoon 2 was already an ostensibly cobbled together update of Splatoon 1 to quickly ride the wave of the console and new franchise hype. Most likely Nintendo wanted to continue support for Splatoon, but Splatoon 2's technical backend was relatively antiquated and it would be difficult to keep building upon the game with only DLC budget; especially since Splatoon has had no other revenue sources within the game such as MTX.

These are good points. This is a fairly new problem for Nintendo. Most of their big, multiplayer focused franchises either dominate their genres (Mario Kart and Smash) in a way that Splatoon doesn't (and really couldn't, feasibly, given how big and popular the online shooter genre is), or they're less important to Nintendo (the Mario sports titles). Either way, they can afford to have long gaps between installments, which may be less of an option for Splatoon.

Their multiplayer games tend to be more iterative than their single-player games, but when we only get one per platform, the jump in tech is usually enough (in conjunction with a few new gameplay concepts and QOL additions) to keep new entries feeling fresh. But getting three Splatoon entries in the span of 7 years that all looked and played so similarly did cause some fatigue to set it with 3, I think, even if it's technically the best the franchise has been to date.
 

NSESN

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,285
I think it is time for Nintendo to give mainline Splatoon some time to get some new ideas and instead try some platform or even an Idol spinoffs
 

Sheldon

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,765
Ruhrgebiet, Germany
My disagreement in large part comes down to the PvE side having flaws that go unmentioned in OP's comparison. First and foremost the grindy nature of Salmon Run, which is more hostile to casual play than any season catalogue as well as the rank reset upon rotation making it impossible to set achievable personal goals for slow but long-term advancement.

Regarding map rotations, the long queue times in Ranked have me convinced the game population, outside Japan, certainy in Europe, maybe in North America, too, can't sustain a wide open free selection. If anything, I'd trim the modes on offer back to two or three, if that'd cut down the average wait time from two minutes and increase the odds of the matchmaker finding a fair composition of weapons and player skill to go up against each other.
 

xendless

Teyvat Traveler
Member
Jan 23, 2019
12,476
Nintendo is in a weird spot where they don't won't to dedicate Splatoon to be a rapidly evolving live service, but doesn't feel particularly substantial for a base game either over Splatoon 2. Instead you have weak updates that don't appeal to anyone other than the hardcore fans that never left the game.

Animal Crossing has the same problem. I really hope the next AC game makes a bigger jump than the Splatoon games have, but I doubt it.
Sharing the same division and having a chunk of the same staff (about 30% right?) will also pull them away from one to focus on the other. When Splatoon 3 support goes, full speed will go to the next AC support and vice versa.

Ideally there would be enough staff to support both of the games better, but Nintendo not doing mass layoffs as of yet shows they know exactly how many staff they can keep to maintain success.
 

Ry.

AVALANCHE
Member
Oct 10, 2021
1,985
the planet Zebes
It's only the third game, Nintendo is still learning all this stuff, give it 'till Splatoon 5 or 6 at least.

All joking aside, I 100% agree, but I also just don't view it as a real competitive game. The co-op content is much better. At the rate Nintendo takes to pick up industry norms, we will get the first real Nintendo made esports game in a decade or two haha.
 

CoinStarDX

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
657
Yes, that's the math, which is also why the complaint isn't outdated. Also the first batch of maps we got in the first few months weren't great either.

So even if they released 5 great maps recently, and I wouldn't know since I've barely played them (and I have turned the game on recently) the basic setup of the game does a good job of negating that. If the game is going to have forced map rotation like this, it's a real bummer when half the maps are bad.

I will give them credit for mostly getting rid of mode rotation though, since there are 3 out of 4 modes in rotation at all times. Much better odds of playing what I want when that is the math.
The rotations have almost all had the new map since the new update dropped.

There's also been an in going challenge that always has the new map in rotation.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,135
The rotations have almost all had the new map since the new update dropped.

There's also been an in going challenge that always has the new map in rotation.
It's always like that the first few days after a new season, then things go back to normal. I'm sure by the time I play the game, it will stick me with Eeltail Alley for 10 games in a row.
 

Ciao

Member
Jun 14, 2018
5,253
I love Splatoon to death, but every time I jump in after a long time away (like litteraly just 1h ago), I get scared by the level of players I'm facing. I don't know if it's my gear, my lack of map awareness or my aim (probably all 3), but it feels overwhelming. I can top a leaderboard in any CoD but that's child's play compared to Splatoon.

I'll still keep buying Nintendo consoles exclusively for them day 1, the art is unmatched!
 

Kraid

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,822
Cuck Zone
I don't play or, frankly, have much interest in competitive multiplayer shooters outside of Splatoon. I would be pretty bummed if Nintendo started making the series more like those.

Some of the quirks that people are insistent that they get rid of are things I find appealing. I do think it's great that you have so many modes on rotation… but yeah, the matchmaking kinda sucks now. And it's a little bit of a bummer to play with the same people constantly. My biggest complaint is the short windows for Challenges, but I also kind of see the intent of that.

I play basically every day, I have played every game in the series basically every day since it launched. I just hope we get something on the Switch successor in honor of the 10th anniversary of the series next year.
 

Derbel McDillet

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Nov 23, 2022
18,676
I don't even mind the overly symmetrical maps too much, but what was the design limitation that had them make so many maps X, but floating in the air. Maps were just settings. "Oh cool an airport", is just the top of a building in the air next to a plane. "Oh cool they brought back Humpback" and it's floating in the air. It doesn't bother me for a few, the like the bridge and then there's that really big symmetrical one (I don't recall the name of), and I do like that initial map that's just a straight with an elevated platform in the middle, but part of the symmetrical sameiness complaint does come from a lot of the maps being X setting, but on a floating platform in the air, instead of being in a place like Inkblot Academy or Port Mackerel. The ones surrounded by water aren't as bad.

I don't play or, frankly, have much interest in competitive multiplayer shooters outside of Splatoon. I would be pretty bummed if Nintendo started making the series more like those.

Some of the quirks that people are insistent that they get rid of are things I find appealing. I do think it's great that you have so many modes on rotation… but yeah, the matchmaking kinda sucks now. And it's a little bit of a bummer to play with the same people constantly. My biggest complaint is the short windows for Challenges, but I also kind of see the intent of that.

I play basically every day, I have played every game in the series basically every day since it launched. I just hope we get something on the Switch successor in honor of the 10th anniversary of the series next year.
Please walk me through how making the modes you like more available would make the games less appealing to you. Was Splatoon 2 better for making Salmon Run limited?
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
89,109
Houston, TX
The seasonal model itself isn't the problem, especially since it helps prevent crunch (something that EPD 5 has become really cognizant about in recent years). And I actually enjoyed my time with Side Order, even if it wasn't as good as Octo Expansion to me (though WAY more replayable). But I wish they did more to improve the overall multiplayer experience to go along with the QoL improvements. The chunk system is probably one of the biggest issues when it comes to approachability, but you did a good job of highlighting the other issues. Likewise, EPD 5's failure to fully fix the Splattercolor Screen's accessibility issues 3 months after its introduction is baffling (though indicative of Nintendo's overall accessibility failings). Even the gyro options are falling behind the competition, with likes of Fortnite & Call of Duty pulling ahead in both options and general gyro implementation.

Splatoon's still inherently fun, but it just doesn't feel fresh anymore. And I hope that, assuming Animal Crossing is next on the EPD 5 coin-toss (more on that in a bit), they let Splatoon rest for a bit so they can do enough cleaning up of existing concepts & adding new ones so the series can truly live up to its "Stay Fresh" tagline again. While Splatoon is a juggernaut in Japan, the last thing I want is for the series to fall off overseas.

I mainly play turf war and yeah a lot of the maps suck. The newer ones are better but the archaic "only 2 every 2 hours" system means odds are if I want to play the available maps will still suck. Splatoon 2 is my most played Switch game and while 3 is #2 its much less and I doubt it'll ever pass 2. I just don't play as much Splatoon now.

This plus how disappointing Side Order was makes me really question if Splatoon needed a new entry on Switch. I love Return of the Mammalians but I think if they expanded it a bit more it could've just been a standalone budget release (not that Nintendo does that often lol).

Oh and also I really hate the catalog. At some point I stopped paying attention to it. I think I only finished it the first 2 seasons. I barely got past 20 last season. I pretty much only log on for Splatfests and Big Runs now.


I completely agree honestly.
Between how they've fumbled the updates themselves & the Switch 2's internal delay, my belief that they should've supported New Horizons for an extra year & save Splatoon 3 for the Switch 2's first year have become more solidified. I'm not saying it would've 100% prevented said Switch 2 delay, but it would at least ensure that Nintendo has a stronger Year 1 for the system even if they opted to push the system back regardless.

I think it is time for Nintendo to give mainline Splatoon some time to get some new ideas and instead try some platform or even an Idol spinoffs
I just hope we get something on the Switch successor in honor of the 10th anniversary of the series next year.
EPD 5 is likely doing Animal Crossing next, so I wouldn't expect Splatoon 4 until 2027 or 2028 (probably the latter).

it's always been the weakest
Nah, Splatoon 3 is still easily the best entry in the series so far. The issue is that Nintendo has generally failed to capitalize on the game's potential (especially on the PvP front).

I'd argue it "needed" a new entry, but probably not for reasons that aren't entirely franchise maintenance related. Splatoon has quickly ballooned into becoming Nintendo's second biggest multiplayer driven franchise. The problem with that is that there's no shortage of games in the genre that are vying for people's attention these days since there's always some huge multiplayer game around the corner that blows up, and letting go of a franchise's mindshare that got so big, so fast, would be monumentally misguided (the Call of Duty problem is a more extreme version of that, basically). The Switch 2 was at minimum 6 years away by the time support for Splatoon 2 dried up, and Splatoon 2 was already an ostensibly cobbled together update of Splatoon 1 to quickly ride the wave of the console and new franchise hype. Most likely Nintendo wanted to continue support for Splatoon, but Splatoon 2's technical backend was relatively antiquated and it would be difficult to keep building upon the game with only DLC budget; especially since Splatoon has had no other revenue sources within the game such as MTX.

Splatoon 3 has progressed enough to a point where it's sanded down enough micro-flaws of Splatoon 2's experience where the remaining macro-scaled flaws will continue to stand out, and it's the ones that have always been there from the start. I'm half convinced that Splatoon 4 is going to be a much more reinvented game since even the Splatoon 3 Direct at the time marked the game as a narrative conclusion, but I low-key worry whether or not this is going to become a "grass is always greener" situation by the time that happens. It's easy to forget that Splatoon 2 came out at a time before Fortnite Battle Royale changed the multiplayer landscape forever. Almost every big multiplayer game these days come baked in with MTX of some kind, and Splatoon is still one of the only ones where everything except a single player expansion is completely free. The content completeness of Splatoon 3 in terms of weapons, modes, and stages is well and truly strong at this point, and I don't know how sustainable it'll be in the future to keep going on this path, so for now I'm just enjoying it while it lasts.
I'm sure there were quite a few technical reasons for Nintendo opting to do Splatoon 3 as opposed to updating 2. And at least in Japan, it was absolutely the right call. But like I said, the issue is that they didn't really capitalize on the strength of the base game. Also, I'm pretty sure Splatoon is still 3rd place (or 4th, if you count Animal Crossing) behind Mario Kart & Smash globally.
 

Renna Hazel

Member
Oct 27, 2017
12,135
I'm sure there were quite a few technical reasons for Nintendo opting to do Splatoon 3 as opposed to updating 2. And at least in Japan, it was absolutely the right call. But like I said, the issue is that they didn't really capitalize on the strength of the base game. Also, I'm pretty sure Splatoon is still 3rd place (or 4th, if you count Animal Crossing) behind Mario Kart & Smash globally.
Or 5th if you count Mario Party
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,209
I do not see them waiting until 2028 to put out Splatoon 4 at all. The franchise is too reliant on audience retention to stay idle for that long, and it's also way too big at this point to be beholden to Animal Crossing as if it's some side series. EPD shuffles talent on the regular and the wave of new Splatoon 3 hires was most likely to specifically have a dedicated team at all times working on the series.
 

PucePikmin

Member
Apr 26, 2018
4,347
Agreed, it's the part of Splatoon 3 they worked on the least, and most of the new maps are pretty mid.
 

Neoxon

Spotlighting Black Excellence - Diversity Analyst
Member
Oct 25, 2017
89,109
Houston, TX
I do not see them waiting until 2028 to put out Splatoon 4 at all. The franchise is too reliant on audience retention to stay idle for that long, and it's also way too big at this point to be beholden to Animal Crossing. EPD shuffles talent on the regular and the wave of new Splatoon 3 hires was most likely to specifically have a dedicated team at all times working on the series.
Them getting Splatoon 4 out sooner than 2027 would require one or more of the following…
  • Expanding their talent pool to the point where 30-40% of their staff isn't shared between projects so EPD 5 can go full-steam-ahead for more than one game at any given time.
  • Pull a Pikmin & (partially) outsource Splatoon 4 to an external developer.
  • Prioritize Splatoon 4 over the next Animal Crossing & have the latter wait until 2027-2028.
Even with all the new hires for Splatoon 3, it had a 32.5% overlap with New Horizons' staff. Not a majority, but not an insignificant percentage either. And while Nintendo is trying to expand their internal studios with a new building, that likely won't be ready until 2028 & probably won't bear fruit until much later.

That is why I am hoping for a spinoff
This makes the most sense, it would keep the Splatoon franchise active while the main Splatoon team at EPD 5 take their time to come up with something fresh for the series.
 
Last edited:
Oct 25, 2017
3,205
I lost interest in pvp after the first game. I just want a singleplayer spinoff, or make the campaigns bigger/more of a focus. And the fact I have to buy the base game to even buy Side Order, or Octo expansion... ugh.
 

NotLiquid

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
36,209
Them getting Splatoon 4 out sooner than 2027 would require one or more of the following…
  • Expanding their talent pool to the point where 30-40% of their staff isn't shared between projects so EPD 5 can go full-steam-ahead for more than one game at any given time.
  • Pull a Pikmin & (partially) outsource Splatoon 4 to an external developer.
  • Prioritize Splatoon 4 over the next Animal Crossing & have the latter wait until 2027-2028.
Even with all the new hires for Splatoon 3, it had a 32.5% overlap with New Horizons' staff. Nothing majority, but not an insignificant percentage either. And while Nintendo is trying to expand their internal studios with a new building, that likely won't be ready until 2028 & probably won't bear fruit until much later.
I think you're making too many assumptions about information we don't have full insight into.
 
OP
OP
Nocturnowl

Nocturnowl

Member
Oct 25, 2017
27,334
My disagreement in large part comes down to the PvE side having flaws that go unmentioned in OP's comparison. First and foremost the grindy nature of Salmon Run, which is more hostile to casual play than any season catalogue as well as the rank reset upon rotation making it impossible to set achievable personal goals for slow but long-term advancement.
Actually I should add that the original thread title was multiplayer in general, but I don't dig into salmon run enough to really go and put it under fire so I made it PvP

The PvE absolutely has its own kettle of issues, that's for someone else to tackle though.
Though I can take this opportunity to add some lacking tutorials, Salmon run could use more player tips straight from the game itself, entire modes like clam blitz I'm not even sure actually get a tutorial anywhere.

I don't even mind the overly symmetrical maps too much, but what was the design limitation that had them make so many maps X, but floating in the air. Maps were just settings. "Oh cool an airport", is just the top of a building in the air next to a plane. "Oh cool they brought back Humpback" and it's floating in the air. It doesn't bother me for a few, the like the bridge and then there's that really big symmetrical one (I don't recall the name of), and I do like that initial map that's just a straight with an elevated platform in the middle, but part of the symmetrical sameiness complaint does come from a lot of the maps being X setting, but on a floating platform in the air, instead of being in a place like Inkblot Academy or Port Mackerel. The ones surrounded by water aren't as bad.
I have found that Splatoon has sometimes had a bit of a sense of place issue in some multiplayer maps with the need for so much of the ground to be inkable and thus not too distinct thematically speaking, well maybe sense of place isn't quite right, they have interesting settings and soft worldbuilding, it's just these can end up feeling more as the background elements of a map and less the immediate area you play on as you say.
Now granted I find that above point understandable in places, but when you add your valid point about more maps also feeling like they take place in a floating void, we're kinda getting the Splatoon equivalent of Smash Bros maps that take place on the world vs Smash Bros maps that are just themed platforms in front of skyboxes of the actual world you'd rather be playing on.

I still think a Splatoon RPG would rock.
Thanks to Tableturf mode, I think there's room for Splatoon tactics, a grid system serves itself well to the inking turf aspect of the series.
Of course a spinoff could also take the opportunity to avoid turf war like mechanics entirely, there's a lot of potential in this franchise to move in all sorts of directions.

Shame modern gaming being so expensive or risk wary that it seems to limit the opportunities for a game like splatoon to lean into spinoffs
 

ryechu

Member
Oct 25, 2017
918
The interesting thing is the map design was more complex in the early trailers. i think there was a conscious effort to simplify the design, potentially due to constraints with tri color design.
 

ponzu_boy

J->E Localization
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
4,652
I want a splatoon with a big open adventure mode with a bunch of towns to explore with meaningful quests and loot. I think there is a lot of potential in single player splatoon. I think it could be Nintendo's first open world looter shooter.
 

Madao

Avalanche's One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 26, 2017
5,050
Panama
i already felt the PvP was too much in 2 and 3 has pretty much pushed me out of it. these days i only do PvP with splatfests due to their one time nature. Salmon Run was my go-to mode when PvP became too annoying in S2 but now in S3 even Salmon Run was become almost as unberarable to play.

for the next game, all that i'm going to get into is the single player modes. i'm probably gonna let my NSO sub expire after this year since Splatoon is the only game i play that requires the sub these days.

it's crazy how a series that started as a breath of fresh air and changing a lot of how a shooter works ended up stalling so badly and turning into something so damn unfun to play. the only thing i really want to see is what they do with the single player for the next one. hopefully it's not a Side Order-like mode as the main game's single player (S3's single player was a lot like S2's Octo Expansion in structure within the levels)
 

Shizuo-Kun

Member
Sep 30, 2023
468
I think I'd play more PVP if there were analog-only lobbies. I find gyro controls unfun to use, and even worse to play against. It makes the whole experience unrelaxing, when I just want to lay in bed and play.
 

RedAhmed

Member
Jan 9, 2018
3,723
I agree 100%. Turf War is the weakest mode honestly, despite being really important for maybe the biggest chunk of the playerbase being the casual mode. And I really dislike how grindy the game is, it can feel like a job.

But my biggest criticism of the game, and the reason I dropped it a year ago is the online. I couldn't handle the disconnections, connection errors, getting kicked out of the queue because someone left the queue (like wtf?), people disappearing mid game, insane long queue times, etc. It was a miserable experience, and it happened way too often. I'd waste so much gaming time because of it.
 

darz1

Member
Dec 18, 2017
7,472
I have to disagree, but only partially.

I feel like Splatoon 3 has improved in leaps and bounds in Ranked but has gotten worse for Turf Wars. I actually think that most of the improvements make the game more competitive but also make it less casual friendly.

Map Design
The map design in 1 had alot of very large maps, alot of ground to cover and multiple routes to take. In turf wars you could literally run around for a minute painting the ground and not see an enemy. If you swim from the start it could take 20 seconds to reach the action. This was fine because the superjump mechanic meant if you needed to you could jump to teammate and cut out travel time.

The maps are now alot smaller and do often funnel the action. Now you are instantly in the action almost the entire match. It's alot more frantic. Superjumping is way riskier because unless the person you are jumping to protects your landing, you will probably get splatted. Flanking used to take anywhere from 20-30 seconds, now you flank in about 10-15 seconds. You can't avoid the enemy anymore, you need to fight.

All of this makes Ranked far more competitive and the matches are way more exciting. But in the flip side Turf War is also more competitive and far less friendly to casual players. It's less about just painting the ground and more about the combat. I like the smaller maps and the for us on action

Special Moves
The special moves in 3 are way more balanced. In 1 there were a few OP moves that were just unstoppable, in two there was more balance but some weapon kits still feel way to effective compared to others, in 3 the weapons, subs and special moves are far more evenly distributed and each Special Move has a flaw that you can exploit if an enemy is using it. You always have a fighting chance. No Special is invincible or unstoppable. To OP's charging, the Zipcaster would-be way to overpowered if it didn't return you to your start point.

Loadouts
Splatoon 3 has a ton of different weapons that suit different play styles. And While you can get really good with just one weapon, like my partner has, I have a selection of different weapons that I choose from depending on the mode. Different subs and Specials make me approach the game differently. I feel like there is plenty of variety for you to find at least one or two guns for your playstyles.

Gear and Buffs
Maybe it's just me but I didn't find it too hard to customise my gear. It felt way easier doing it in Splatoon 3 than 1 and 2, which if I'm not mistaken were largely achieved by chance, scrubbing and rerolling gear.

So all of this makes the game far more competitive, which I like. But I do see how for some people it can be harder to get into.

As for the other modes:

Salmon Run
This is a great PvE mode when you have a team who know what they are doing but all it takes is one to not know to fuck it up for everyone else. I like Salmon Run, I feel it's been improved, I like the clothing and money rewards but the grind is absolutely ridiculous for items.

Tableturf Battle
The weird puzzle based card game sucks. People say it's a great little card game. No it's not. It's not fun and it's worse of a grind than Salmon Run.

Challenges
When they announced these I was excited. But they are only available for very short times and alot of the challenges aren't as wacky as I thought they would be.

Story Mode
Story mode was great easily the best if the 3
 

Brazil

Actual Brazilian
Member
Oct 24, 2017
18,939
São Paulo, Brazil
I gotta agree on the simple basis that online multiplayer servers for this game didn't work at all here in Brazil during launch, so I never really even played it competitively at all :D