Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,611
Salt never dies. No, before you ask, I haven't spent the past year and three months raging about this game, but seeing the thread about the royal edition brought back many... fond... memories. And no one ever seems to bring it up even though it's one thing that the patches and DLC haven't managed to fix. But hey, at least you can drive your car off-road now!

Final Fantasy XV is one of the most misogynistic games I've ever had the displeasure of playing. Let us count the ways.

1. Luna

Luna, the game's "heroine" was touted by Tabata as a Stronk Femail Character(TM). We know this is true because she looks determined for 0.2 seconds and then dies. Literally EVERY FUCKING ONE of her like three scenes bar one was about Noctis and how much she loves him. If it weren't for her talking with Not!Hillary Clinton about the Altissia invasion the game wouldn't have passed the Bechdel test (which requires a scene where two female characters talk about something other than a man). And the Bechdel test is a low fucking bar. She shows up in like three scenes. She cries a bunch. Then she dies so Noctis can feel bad. This is a classic case of "stuffed into the fridge" (more commonly abbreviated as "fridging") which is a misogynistic trope where a female character is murdered for the male hero's manpain. It's gross. And some people on GAF tried to mansplain to me about how she was totally a feminist icon. It was beautiful :')

2. Cindy

Ah, Cindy. Do I even need to explain Cindy? Cindy is terrible. The first person to tell me I'm a filthy slutshamer and not a real feminist for criticising her outfit is getting keelhauled. And they didn't even have the good grace to make her THE Cid. Nope, she's just his eyecandy granddaughter. Classy.

3. Gentiana

Gentiana had an interesting personality and a great design. Then she turned into Shiva. What massive glaciers you have, Gentiana! It was nice while it lasted, I suppose.

4. Aranea and Iris

They're actually good for the most part, although Aranea's design and the way the main characters talk about her is just u g h.

5. The party members

Dear Gladiolus, IT'S TIME TO STOP! Prompto too honestly. They won't fucking shut up about how hot Cindy is or whether Aranea has a boyfriend or how the women in Lestallum (who work in a fucking power plant in ASSLESS CHAPS) are built. And of course, Tabata himself said that there couldn't be a female party member because then it would alter the male pureness of their dynamic or some such nonsense, even though the female guest party members prove this isn't true at all.

Let us not forget the iconic quote "people say Cindy is too sexy yet they want female party members. That seems contradictory to me" oh my god fuck off.

Yes I'm still bitter. I'm especially bitter that none of the guys splooging about FFXV seem to give a shit that one of the most successful games of the past year is a misogynistic dumpster fire. It's kind of important, ya know?
 

Deleted member 5596

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,747
I wouldn't call XV outright misogynistic, but is clearly sexist.

I agree 100% with what you said, but be ready I can already hear them coming.
 

Deleted member 9971

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,743
I fully agree tbh. And normally i'm quite open on that stuff. If those characters were atleast decently written it could be a different story.
 

nelsonroyale

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
12,135
Agreed on all points. Female characters were poorly written and treated in the plot, and also Tabata was very evasive on their involvement. Luna was the worst though...Her agency was glued to Noctis. It was just badly handled.
 

Ishiro

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
2,066
Lebanon
Yes I'm still bitter. I'm especially bitter that none of the guys splooging about FFXV seem to give a shit that one of the most successful games of the past year is a misogynistic dumpster fire. It's kind of important, ya know?
It is important. And your concerns are certainly worthy of being voiced. But did you have to put every FFXV male fan on the spot here for not feeling so strongly about this subject as you?
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,833
I thought Luna couldn't be more terrible and useless than what already she was in the Kingslaive movie.

Tabata managed to surprise me there.
 

Xaszatm

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,903
Oh god, I completely forgot all about Gentiana. Like what the hell? Why do women need a "sexiness upgrade" even when it isn't necessary? Man that really annoyed the hell out of me when that happened.

It is important. And your concerns are certainly worthy of being voiced. But did you have to put every FFXV male fan on the spot here for not feeling so strongly about this subject as you?

I mean, you can be a male fan of FFXV and still feel this way. And like, maybe she isn't talking about you specifically?
 
OP
OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,611
Oh god, I completely forgot all about Gentiana. Like what the hell? Why do women need a "sexiness upgrade" even when it isn't necessary? Man that really annoyed the hell out of me when that happened.

It hurts because her original design is actually creative and cool and aesthetically pleasing? And then... that.

203

164627870258260de2f3641.JPG


This is why we can't have nice things.
 

glaurung

Member
Oct 26, 2017
1,648
Estonia
Oh, poor Cindy. In the end it did not matter that she is more cleavage than human. What made me miserable by the end was the vapid writing of her character.

And yes, when someone references her, I am more inclined to envision Nikki Benz in the Cindy parody role.
 

Deleted member 1287

user requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
613
Why do I have a 2 part cutscene to skip every time I get gas at hammerhead. Makes the Cindy bullshit even more annoying for me
 

Atram

Member
Oct 25, 2017
550
Germany
It hurts because her original design is actually creative and cool and aesthetically pleasing? And then... that.

203

164627870258260de2f3641.JPG


This is why we can't have nice things.

To be honest every Shiva Design in FF goes in this direction. Gentianas design was nice but shiva is.....typical SE shiva

Cindy from the other side was something that I would never expect in an Main FF game
 

Grim Patron

Banned
Oct 26, 2017
771
Oh, poor Cindy. In the end it did not matter that she is more cleavage than human. What made me miserable by the end was the vapid writing of her character.

And yes, when someone references her, I am more inclined to envision Nikki Benz in the Cindy parody role.
Oh, poor Cindy. In the end it did not matter that she is more cleavage than human. What made me miserable by the end was the vapid writing of her character.

And yes, when someone references her, I am more inclined to envision Nikki Benz in the Cindy parody role.
Who is Nikki Benz?

Also OP I completely agree. So many chances to fix so many of the things but keep throwing new mechanics in because sure.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
The treatment of Luna, Gentiana and Cid killed the whole game for me on top of everything else.

I thought Aranea was ok, but criminally underutilized. Iris too

Terra, Faris, Ashe, and Garnett would like a word with you.

Tifa Aeris and Yuna too, before FFX-2 anyways. Even Rikku IMO before FFX-2 was great, some stupid camera shots aside
 

SnakeyHips

Member
Oct 31, 2017
2,700
Wales
I haven't played XV yet but that's a shame to hear especially as there are plenty of great female characters in previous FF titles: Terra, Celes, Aeris, Rinoa, Garnet, Agrias, Yuna, Ashe, the list goes on and on. When I first saw Cindy I was hoping she'd be a strong character (despite her looks) but oh well.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
I do not think the treatment of the characters (in terms of personality, story etc.) is at all sexist.

Luna is a strong female character. She may not be 'uber' but she's got a strength of spirit and faces her death with dignity (which she always knows is her destiny). She's never actually a damsel in distress, even when it appears to be the case its actually just Noctis chasing after her like a lost puppy.

Cindy and Aranea are obviously strong characters too. Despite not being a core part of the story, they do stand up and do their own thing, and have their own agency. Prompto's shallow fascination is a bit annoying, but it really is just relegated to him, and him being teased about his vulnerability to women, which is a part of his personality. Outside of Prompto they are not treated as objects (again in terms of the writing).

The fact that none of the female characters are developed properly is disappointing, but is very much part of the intention of the game. The game is a 'male' focused game, and that's okay. It's good to have different games with different character dynamics. It's not as if Females aren't regularly depicted with more depth in Final Fantasy games, in fact more recent entries tend to have much stronger females than males. Again this is all in terms of the writing.*

The big caveat is that the designs are totally unacceptable, and sexist to the extreme. The fact that both Cindy, Luna and Aranea are depicted as women who are independent and strong, is totally at odds with their designs and even things like the way the camera acts around them. The designs totally undermine the writing, which is honestly why I think people think the characters are portrayed badly, because one influences the other. If we didn't have these offensive designs, I don't think anyone would be anywhere near as pissed off. And to be honest I massively sympathise.

*I will say it is disappointing that this game plays up to traditional gender roles. But its no worse than the vast majority of games/films etc.
 

KZXcellent

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,976
I don't expect female characters to be treated properly in Tabata's games. The only female character that I think is really good would be Aranea which I enjoyed both in the main game and Episode Prompto.

That said I wouldn't say it's sexist I just think the people writing these women are kind of boneheaded and don't know how to portray them very well.
 

Tyaren

Character Artist
Verified
Oct 25, 2017
25,160
Gentiana was one of my most favorite designs in the game...



...before I knew her final form, lol.
It would've been so cool and design-wise much more cohesive if they kept her Japanese inspired look and turned her as Shiva into a Yuki-onna (snow woman) of Japanese folklore. Similarly to what we saw in Nioh:


(They already look so similar...)

Not just much more cohesive and classy, but it would've been a very unique approach of depicting Shiva in the Final Fantasy universe.
 

Deleted member 426

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
7,273
If we're going for kingsglaive to argue what kind of character Luna is, isn't that even worse, considering her portrayal there is pretty offensive all things considered
How do you mean? I'm not being defensive on that, if there are issues with her depiction there I'd love to hear so I can be better informed.
 

Valkyr1983

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,523
NH, United States
I mean, I fuckin looovvveeddd FFXV, but yeah, I feel you and understand where your coming from

I thought Iris was well done and added a nice dynamic late game

Although yeah the majority appeal for me with that game was the "stand by me" boys trip / bonding theme Which probably lead to some of the choices you consider problematic

It was probably top 3 game for me last year so I might not change much about it personally but maybe Tabata could have tucked Cindy away a little more and made it more optional and less in your face?
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,833
Within the game itself she is a MacGuffin. Within the DLC and Kingsglaive you see what kind of character she really is.

Kingsglaive Luna was horrible. She's just there to be saved and then be an obstacle for Nyx
j66Fixg.gif


*Also the moment she ignores Nyx and jumps out of the ship and requires to be saved by Nyx inmediately again (can't found a gif).
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
How do you mean? I'm not being defensive on that, if there are issues with her depiction there I'd love to hear so I can be better informed.

she jumps out of a flying vehicle to prove she can do it only to be rescued. has to be constantly talked down to and told what to do by others, and generally accomplishes nothing of value besides standing around looking either vaguely confused or sad and depressed
 

LiquidSolid

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,731
FFXII is actually a pretty feminist game. And, surprisingly, FFXIII. (Shame that the sequels shot that all to hell, but still.)
XIII-2 was pretty good too, wasn't it? It's been a while but I remember liking Serah quite a lot. Oh wait, Lightning had a shitty outfit, didn't she?

Anyway, yeah. For a series that has a fairly large female fanbase, I found the "bro" aspect of XV, with its shitty female characters and blatant misogyny, baffling. Tabata even seemed to try and compensate for that by talking up Luna to an absurd degree but that only made things worse once you play the game and realise she isn't even a character, she's a cardboard cutout in Noctis' story.
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,862
Within the game itself she is a MacGuffin. Within the DLC and Kingsglaive you see what kind of character she really is.
I've not played the DLC because the base game was so horrible and the scenes with her amounted to nothing. What's different in the DLC?

She was depicted as pretty helpless and reckless in the movie.
 

Ferrs

Avenger
Oct 26, 2017
18,833
XIII-2 was pretty good too, wasn't it? It's been a while but I remember liking Serah quite a lot. Oh wait, Lightning had a shitty outfit, didn't she?

Anyway, yeah. For a series that has a fairly large female fanbase, I found the "bro" aspect of XV, with its shitty female characters and blatant misogyny, baffling. Tabata even seemed to try and compensate for that by talking up Luna to an absurd degree but that only made things worse once you play the game and realise she isn't even a character, she's a cardboard cutout in Noctis' story.

I don't think the problem was in doing a bromance themed game, you can still do that and have good secondary female characters. They failed though.
 
OP
OP
Persephone

Persephone

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,611
Oh, oh and Crowe! I forgot about Crowe since I haven't seen Kingsglaive. But yeah, Crowe got fridged too.
 

LuisGarcia

Banned
Oct 31, 2017
3,478
I agree on some points but don't agree at all about the dialogue between the main party. They are a bunch of guys talking about women that they find attractive. There is nothing wrong with that and happens in real life. Women will sit around and talk about men they find attractive all the time (more so in my experience)

But yeah I agree ref Luna and Cindys outfit. Although it's absolutely nowhere near "one of the most misogynistic games I've ever had the displeasure of playing".
 

Mifec

Member
Oct 25, 2017
17,862
Oh, oh and Crowe! I forgot about Crowe since I haven't seen Kingsglaive. But yeah, Crowe got fridged too.
Never waste your time with it would be my advice, but I assume you already decided that yourself anyway. Speaking of Iris, she was fine yeah but I wish there was more of her in the game, same with Aranea who's basically a non char.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Does anyone really accept the notion that the females had to be horrible because the guys are the focus of the game? That's like saying shounen manga female characters are going to be horribly written or not prominent because its aimed at a "male demographic", that's not an excuse in the absolute least.

The game included these characters, they should be done justice. period.
 

jipewithin

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,094
Tabata even seemed to try and compensate for that by talking up Luna to an absurd degree but that only made things worse once you play the game and realise she isn't even a character, she's a cardboard cutout in Noctis' story.
I think this is the biggest mistake as Luna was marketed as someone. If she wouldn't have been presented as "strong heroine" or give her any special attention the problem would be much smaller. She had a part in the story, but she was not in any way center of it. Just a side character. Which is fine.

You could still say she was strong because she was fulfilling her duty which she knew would kill her. I guess it could have been presented better (like many other things in FFXV).

Nothing wrong in Aranea design and it's pretty far fetched to label Prompto being misogynistic because he wonders if she has a boyfriend or how nice Cidney is. He's like what, 20 years old shy boy with bad self esteem? It's not surprising he has crushes easily.
 

Aniki

"This guy are sick"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,809
Luna's brother is equally terribly written. The actions of both make no sense. I personally had no problem with a male only party. My problem was more how other females were portrayed. Especially Cindy. Almost the entire japanese industry is on a downward spiral when it comes to the objectification of women. And i know i'm part of the problem as i still end up buying the games. I'm very annoyed by this. I don't like this trend but i'm not bothered enough to stop buying, even as these portrayals clearly hamper my enjoyment. Case in point with Xenoblade Chronicles 2. I think i need to order my priorities. There's is enough stuff out there that i don't need to buy the games with the most egregious examples. Still a shame. As these games are pretty great and absolutely don't need to include such pandering in order to find an audience.
 

OrangeNova

Member
Oct 30, 2017
12,809
Canada
I think the biggest issue is the writing in FFXV, no matter the character or gender... everyone is written equally terribly, and the pacing of the story is... well there isn't.
 

Inuhanyou

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,214
New Jersey
Luna is still front and center of the Royal edition. Isnt' that funny? I mean we have no more content with her than we did when we started, yet someone she deserves to be on the cover

I agree on some points but don't agree at all about the dialogue between the main party. They are a bunch of guys talking about women that they find attractive. There is nothing wrong with that and happens in real life. Women will sit around and talk about men they find attractive all the time (more so in my experience)

While i generally agree with this, it doesn't really apply to FF15 when all Cindy for example had been portrayed as was eye candy of the most shameless variety. Having them talk about her like that when the game itself makes no mention of her as anything else but male gaze fodder makes those comments actually loaded.
 

Keym

The Fallen
Oct 26, 2017
9,258
Luna is an embarrassment and Aranea's outfit is outright stupid, someone with her personality would never wear cleavage-armor.
 

shaneo632

Weekend Planner
Member
Oct 29, 2017
29,205
Wrexham, Wales
Yeah I found the character of Cindy really offputting from the outset. Like, I'm not some 11 year old horndog. I don't need to see a girl with her boobs hanging out every time she shows up. It feels so patronising and pandering.