Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,721
The other day I had come across one of the most famous Vietnam War photos there are, the execution of "a suspected Vietcong". I initially saw the picture again because something like that reminds me of some of the more voyeuristic things we now see today of filming people that need help. Obviously war photography is a bit different, but seeing someone just take a picture of someone being executed reminded me of the bystander effect of today.

80VKJpp.jpg


Realizing I really didn't know the history behind the picture and who was actually in the photo, I looked into it.

The photo was sent west and used in the anti-war movements in the US as an example of innocent people being rounded up as being suspected of being Vietcong and executed. The photographer won a Pulitzer prize and that narrative had stayed for a long time.

The real story is that on the left that is General Nguyễn Ngọc Loan who was chief of the national police and on the right is Nguyễn Văn Lém. Lém, a commander of a Vietcong unit, attacked a south Vietnamese military outpost. Lém captured a Lieutenant Colonel with his family and forced the Colonel to show them how to drive tanks. When Lieutenant Colonel Tuan refused to cooperate, Lém killed Tuan, his wife and six children and his 80-year-old mother by cutting their throats. There was only one survivor, a seriously injured 10-year-old boy. Lém was captured near a mass grave with 34 civilian bodies. Lém admitted that he was proud to carry out his unit leader's order to kill these people. When Lém was captured and brought to him, General Loan summarily executed him using his sidearm, a .38 Special Smith & Wesson Bodyguard revolver

I can't condone that an execution outside of international conventions and due process was done, but at the same time this changes my whole perception of the photograph. The pulitzer prize winning photographer regrets ever taking the photo because of how it was used.

Even modern reshowings of the photograph can't even put in an effort to correct the record. CNN in 2014 described the photo as "Eddie Adams photographed South Vietnamese police chief Gen. Nguyen Ngoc Loan killing Viet Cong suspect Nguyen Van Lem in Saigon in 1960.
 

GungHo

Member
Nov 27, 2017
6,280
Pictures are worth 1000 words, but that doesn't mean that those words aren't out of context.
 
Oct 26, 2017
19,997
Oh wow. I'm glad you posted this OP, because I've never heard the true story. That's crazy how different the story is from what I knew. Really puts a whole new spin on it.
 

Psamtik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
7,001
Regardless of what the prisoner did, the photograph still punctures the narrative that US-allied forces had the moral high ground in Vietnam, just as it did at the time.
 

Prolepro

Ghostwire: BooShock
Banned
Nov 6, 2017
7,310
Wasn't this covered in the new Ken Burns' documentary? Or did I see that somewhere else?
 
Oct 25, 2017
788
I had no idea the false story was so widely accepted. I guess it's easier to believe given that the photo truly does look like an innocent man being executed.
 
OP
OP
Trojita

Trojita

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,721

KeyBladerXIII

Member
Dec 5, 2017
4,620
I've always wondered, was this photo taken a split second after the gun fired or was the dude flinching as the shooter pulled the gun?
 

minus_me

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,104
I'd never lie to you all.

Yeah the whole time I looked at the photo in the past viewed it as an innocent man beaten, tied up, and about to be executed.

I have to admit I was never aware of this angle either. Don't think I've seen it described as such in any Vietnam War history book. Guess I got lucky.
 

m_dorian

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,403
Athens, Greece
This story was known but people were focusing on the power of the image.
Still, under any circumstance, it is not just to execute without a trial.
 

NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,960
Yeah the whole time I looked at the photo in the past viewed it as an innocent man beaten, tied up, and about to be executed.

That photo is technically post execution. I saw the video in that Ken Burns Vietnam doc and the puff of hair on the right is actually the bullet just exiting the head. The camera caught it just fractions of a second after the trigger was pulled.
 

Contramann

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,406
I'd never lie to you all.
So you're really a dog for reals?


Also as someone who used to work in the Newseum which had a Pulitizer Prize museum I find that story interesting as I never learned that story. Makes me want to go back and see if there's any acknowledgement of that stuff there now.
 

kidtamagotchi

Member
Oct 27, 2017
359
I knew what this was going to be, just by the thread title. I was surprised when I found out the real story, and it left me with conflicted feelings.

The film footage of this is also the first time I've ever seen a person killed by a gun shot to the head. It was on PBS in the middle of the day! (It wasn't the recent Ken Burns documentary, it was something that came on about 20 years ago)
 
Oct 27, 2017
12,374
I remember learning this in college. It hasn't been new for a long time, but unfortunately the true story really isn't widespread even now.
 

Dekuman

Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,087
Yep it was used in my generic history book with no context, just under the heading 'Vietnam war' or Vietcong execution

With context, I feel like the execution was justified during that time.
 

NCR Ranger

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,960
The film footage of this is also the first time I've ever seen a person killed by a gun shot to the head. It was on PBS in the middle of the day! (It wasn't the recent Ken Burns documentary, it was something that came on about 20 years ago)

PBS snatches the innocence of another person I see. I am pretty sure the first time I saw the same thing was in a PBS doc about JFK's assassination. I don't remember how old I was but that blurry footage made me realize just how nasty gunshot/exit wounds can be.
 

JBucc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
264
I think the video of this is the first time I ever saw a person being killed for real, at least that up close. It's been a while but from the documentary 'Hearts and Minds,' I believe.
 

Deleted member 2171

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,731
I actually never heard the false story, it was shown to us in school as told above, war execution. Weird
 

mac

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,308
I never assumed he was innocent. I figured he was a rival soldier who should be taken as a P.O.W. or given the barest semblance of a trial before shooting him dead in the street. But jeez, that is quite a story. It really pushes the limits of ones commitment to legal protections in war.
 

L Thammy

Spacenoid
Member
Oct 25, 2017
50,202
Reminds me of that photo of the starving African child, where the photographer was condemned and pushed to suicide for not helping the child, when the photo was actually taken just outside a soup kitchen or something like that.
 

Soupman Prime

The Fallen
Nov 8, 2017
8,730
Boston, MA
Wow, I've seen the picture plenty of times and always figured the guy was just shooting an innocent civilian. Now knowing the story I can't say I have any sympathy.
 

hom3land

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,626
There was an episode of Revisionist history podcast about this picture.




Turns out the kid was lost and had just turned the corner or something and was shocked. The policeman was trying to hold the dog back and push the kid away. Later on in his life he was interviewed by Jet magazine. In the interview he wanted nothing to do with the civil Rights movement and if I remember correctly he thought the protests were by a bunch of trouble makers. It was rather weird. Anyway. That photo has now been turned into this statue.

 

Occam

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,510
Im pretty sure this has been known for years. At least I heard about it a long time ago.
 

zon

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,439
The other day I had come across one of the most famous Vietnam War photos there are, the execution of "a suspected Vietcong". I initially saw the picture again because something like that reminds me of some of the more voyeuristic things we now see today of filming people that need help. Obviously war photography is a bit different, but seeing someone just take a picture of someone being executed reminded me of the bystander effect of today.

80VKJpp.jpg


Realizing I really didn't know the history behind the picture and who was actually in the photo, I looked into it.

The photo was sent west and used in the anti-war movements in the US as an example of innocent people being rounded up as being suspected of being Vietcong and executed. The photographer won a Pulitzer prize and that narrative had stayed for a long time.

The real story is that on the left that is General Nguyễn Ngọc Loan who was chief of the national police and on the right is Nguyễn Văn Lém. Lém, a commander of a Vietcong unit, attacked a south Vietnamese military outpost. Lém captured a Lieutenant Colonel with his family and forced the Colonel to show them how to drive tanks. When Lieutenant Colonel Tuan refused to cooperate, Lém killed Tuan, his wife and six children and his 80-year-old mother by cutting their throats. There was only one survivor, a seriously injured 10-year-old boy. Lém was captured near a mass grave with 34 civilian bodies. Lém admitted that he was proud to carry out his unit leader's order to kill these people. When Lém was captured and brought to him, General Loan summarily executed him using his sidearm, a .38 Special Smith & Wesson Bodyguard revolver

I can't condone that an execution outside of international conventions and due process was done, but at the same time this changes my whole perception of the photograph. The pulitzer prize winning photographer regrets ever taking the photo because of how it was used.

Even modern reshowings of the photograph can't even put in an effort to correct the record. CNN in 2014 described the photo as "Eddie Adams photographed South Vietnamese police chief Gen. Nguyen Ngoc Loan killing Viet Cong suspect Nguyen Van Lem in Saigon in 1960.

There's one additional piece of info that I've read about the pic. The man was executed on the spot because the Vietcong was on the verge of taking the city from the general's forces. There were no prisons they could put him in in wait for a trial. If the Vietcong did win then Lém would go free after killing 30+ civilians.
 
Oct 26, 2017
1,004
There's one additional piece of info that I've read about the pic. The man was executed on the spot because the Vietcong was on the verge of taking the city from the general's forces. There were no prisons they could put him in in wait for a trial. If the Vietcong did win then Lém would go free after killing 30+ civilians.

Also, because the man posed as a civilian to commit the crimes, under the Geneva convention- he had no protection under international law.
 

Ogodei

One Winged Slayer
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,256
Coruscant
Vietcong were not good people, this should have been obvious. But neither was South Vietnam. I could see some tankies or other Leninist stans portraying it as a freedom fighter being cruelly summarily executed, but the point is more that there were no good guys in Vietnam. Antidemocratic, pro colonial military dictators against ruthless revolutionaries who were willing to discard human life in the name of the greater good.
 

Xiaomi

Member
Oct 25, 2017
7,237
If you want to see how morally fucked up the Vietnam War really was and still is, you should go to Hanoi and check out some museums. Particularly the Vietnam Women's Museum. All kinds of mass murderers of civilians on display, and they're celebrated as soldiers of the revolution for it.
 

King Tubby

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,559
I don't think knowing the backstory really changes much in terms of the impact or message of the photograph, at least in my reckoning. It's still a man being executed like a dog in the middle of the street without due process. Whether this particular man was innocent or not is rather immaterial. Things like that happen to innocent (and guilty) people in war all the time. Even the crime he is supposedly guilty of was partly borne from war. War is horrible.
 

itwasTuesday

The Fallen
Oct 30, 2017
8,078
The photo of the vulture and starving child comes to mind.
Won a Pulitzer prize. 1993 photo of the year.
Shot in a way to make the vulture appear much close to the child than it actually was.
Criticism and hate mail came his way.
The photographer Kevin Carter committed suicide in 1994.
I'm really, really sorry. The pain of life overrides the joy to the point that joy does not exist. ...depressed ... without phone ... money for rent ... money for child support ... money for debts ... money!!! ... I am haunted by the vivid memories of killings & corpses & anger & pain ... of starving or wounded children, of trigger-happy madmen, often police, of killer executioners ... I have gone to join Ken [recently deceased colleague Ken Oosterbroek] if I am that lucky.
- Suicide note left by Kevin
 

30yearsofhurt

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,246
The story I heard is that Loan was a very close friend of the Tuan family and was so upset at the death of his friends that he decided to kill Lem on the spot.