Online Criticism and Discourse

[John Doe]

Is there a "right way" to criticise a piece of media online? I'm on a subreddit for an online game and there was a post about a tweet from one of the developers saying that there are real people behind the game and just shitting on a new armour design isn't helpful and they all worked very hard on it. I'm not saying he was wrong, I get where he's coming from. You're human and regardless of the quality of your product, you're going to feel bad if someone just craps on it.

The gist of the tweet was that constructive criticism is key. Before and well now, if you didn't like a new movie and you told your friends, no one outside of that circle was going to hear your opinion. Now, the creators of the piece might see it or fans who actually liked it may still feel a bit put out.

Like, is there scope for someone to post or tweet "The Last Jedi sucks" and leave it there? Of course personal attacks are a no no. I don't care how awful the last season of Game of Thrones was, there's no need to tweet out insults about the cast or D&D.


Then if you are going to post a long dissertation about why the Star Wars sequels suck, what is a valid criticism and what's cinemasins style nit picking? Is there an issue with nit picking and pointing out really hard to see plot holes? What role do Youtube reviewers play in all of this when it comes to discussions around a new release or fandom?

 

[cursed knowledge]

i agree with the notion that not every criticism should be a 1-hour long yt essay or it's an personal attack, but almost everyone who says "x thing sucks" in a non-joking manner is just trying to get quoted/have nothing to say

 

[Elegant Weapon]

Saying "X is shitty or bad" because you don't like it isn't good criticism.


Saying "I don't like X because of a,b & c" is much better and can even be constructive.


I don't think it's that complicated tbh

 

[Hektor]

Fuck that noise.
Perfectly fine to say Goremaster64 is shit.
Opinions don't need to be "constructive criticism".

 

[shaneo632]

I wish the word Discourse had never been invented.

I didn't really use Twitter actively until recently and had no idea people used the word to talk about, like, superhero movies and anime.

 

[Lobster Roll]

Game criticism and discourse on Reddit is absolutely miserable and most often devoid of any kind of "constructive criticism". That you didn't name the specific game has me guessing already, so I'll just assume you're talking about Halo. Outside of that, when it comes to Reddit & Twitter, it's almost always firing-from-the-hip style of criticism that is meant to be done in a way to ensure your voice is the loudest in the room. It is almost never constructive nor useful in any way.

 

[trashbandit]

Constructive criticism is all well and good, but the vast majority of people who end up criticizing something lack the faculties to make constructive criticism, either because it is more effort than they intend to give or because they're lacking some critical information. Idk what you do about that, I guess all you can do is identify when you're dealing with a person that's coming at an issue intuitively instead of analytically and adjust your response accordingly.

Anecdotally, no one should ever entertain the opinions of people on Reddit broadly, and they certainly shouldn't when it comes to games. That place is like the pure unfiltered id of people who are invested enough in games to get mad and talk about them online, without any restraint whatsoever.

 

[echoshifting]

Criticism shouldn't be personal but that doesn't mean it has to be constructive. It's fine to just state an opinion. If you're in a creative industry that is part of the deal. It happens and it doesn't always feel good.

 

[CBZ]

I tend to just stay out of it, but if I really feel like I need to say anything I'll try to be as constructive as possible (unless media is made for a genuinely scummy reason, in which case all gloves are off). Twitter tends to discourage this mindset, thanks in part to the tweet length restrictions and how they limit what can be discussed. I left it long ago for that reason.

 

[RedHeat]

It's a giant bowl of shit soup in all honestly. People generally like to dress up their shitty opinions as "constructive criticism"; you're better just forming your own opinions or from friends/family.

 

[MadLaughter]

Constructive criticism is helpful for the people being criticized, hyperbolic/drive-by remarks are helpful only to the rando saying them.

The fact that our opinions have to compete with every other opinion on the internet means that mellow, low key thoughtful feedback is almost never loud enough to rise above the background noise.

"Didn't like that movie much" doesn't draw as much attention as "that movie was a dumpster fire and everyone in it should be ashamed"

 

[Deleted member 3542]

Saying "X is shitty or bad" because you don't like it isn't good criticism.


Saying "I don't like X because of a,b & c" is much better and can even be constructive.


I don't think it's that complicated tbh

Click to shrink...

Yep. But online people want clicks and eyeballs and as much attention as possible so this correct approach is rarely done. Why do something thoughtful when you can just be snarky and throw in a "ding" without giving a good explanation or context?

Youtube and other social media is more concerned about being entertaining than actually critical and audiences have conflated the two at this point.

 

[Croc Man]

The basic rule is: Don't be a dick.

Critise away but don't fall into personal attacks or start tagging the people involved in a tweet.

 

[Nepenthe]

The problem is the size of the feedback. One person saying that your work is bad is whatever. Hundreds of thousands of people saying your work is bad is utterly demoralizing, even if it's balanced out by people who like it. Months go into updates, years into entire projects, time that artists can't get back, that after awhile you start thinking "What the fuck was the point of it all?"

I work on a project that has had two major updates since my hiring, and there's a level of anxiousness that comes with releasing content into the wild and hoping people are satisfied with it, or at least, don't see the mistakes you do. One of my pain points on the release, something I wanna sneak back and fix, is simultaneously something fans aesthetically enjoy and point out quite a bit, so that's fun! At the same time, I know when the moment comes that the animation is nitpicked I'm just gonna crawl in a corner and hide under a blanket for a week lol.

I imagine for bigger AAA projects though, these feelings are exponentially amplified (especially if it's your parent company and not necessarily your talent that's at fault) and I can imagine someone on the project going "Hey, can you be a little more courteous and thoughtful?" And it's not about you as an individual having a bad opinion or whatever, but how your participating in a discourse can have that amplification effect. I just don't blame people when after awhile social media gets ignored or folks lash out.

 

[Deleted member 25606]

I only find constructive criticisms worthwhile if the person getting the criticism is the actual creator. And lots of times (my brother is an underground musician who's been getting onto mixtapes and getting features lately so I'm intimate with this) they ask for it themselves because they want helpful info from people they trust not feedback from internet random.

Criticism is good when the critic actually knows the medium and can not only dissect the piece but add their voice unique viewpoint to it, but that's for fans seeking more not the creators.

Im fine with saying I think some random thing or game is junk as long you don't attack the creators or fans (I love Fromsoft and won't even argue with people who disagree butI think Dark Souls 2 is shit and have no problem saying it). Once your opinion crosses to the validity, worth, or character of the creator or fans then your opinion is worth shit and it's time to shut your mouth.

 

[Leafshield]

Context is key. If I'm talking to a dev (or pretty much any employee of a company) on social media or on a Reddit AMA about their product, I'll be constructive. They'll also then get the benefit of 'positive engagement' from me on their social media too, let's not pretend that even fairly neutral engagement isn't a desired benefit for them.

If I'm just randomly sounding off to my friends, or shooting the shit about something I found awful with random people though (like on here), I see less of a need to be polite as it's more just opinion than communication. However, I know devs do read era, so opinion can slide into communication easily enough. Sometimes people want to sound off though, especially if they spent £60 on your product. Yes it must be rubbish if you worked on product x for four years and random internet person y apparently thinks 'it fucking sucks'. But I also don't think person y needs to take everyone's feelings into account and reply with a balanced, constructive essay when person y's friend offhand asks them 'what did you think of x' and wants their answer inside of whatever Twitter's character count is.

I don't know. I try to be reasonable about the context of who and where and how I'm communicating. I try to add context to what I'm criticising (to tedious length on here probably). If there's a shitstorm going on, I try to ask myself 'am I adding anything other than noise here'. I just don't use twitter at all as I really don't like how easy it is to share and dogpile and contribute to drama while adding zero substance.

 

[AstralTurfWarrior]

One thing that's good to note is the volume.

If there's already thousands of people complaining about something, does it bring anything to the table if you add a comment along the lines "it's shit"?

Like, if there's something that's clearly anti consumer, then go ahead, knock yourself out and make as much noise as you can. But in most situations it doesn't really help anything if you add your simple "it's shit" opinion it's just completely needless and demoralizing.

The problem is the size of the feedback. One person saying that your work is bad is whatever. Hundreds of thousands of people saying your work is bad is utterly demoralizing, even if it's balanced out by people who like it. Months go into updates, years into entire projects, time that artists can't get back, that after awhile you start thinking "What the fuck was the point of it all?"

I work on a project that has had two major updates since my hiring, and there's a level of anxiousness that comes with releasing content into the wild and hoping people are satisfied with it, or at least, don't see the mistakes you do. One of my pain points on the release, something I wanna sneak back and fix, is simultaneously something fans aesthetically enjoy and point out quite a bit, so that's fun! At the same time, I know when the moment comes that the animation is nitpicked I'm just gonna crawl in a corner and hide under a blanket for a week lol.

I imagine for bigger AAA projects though, these feelings are exponentially amplified (especially if it's your parent company and not necessarily your talent that's at fault) and I can imagine someone on the project going "Hey, can you be a little more courteous and thoughtful?" And it's not about you as an individual having a bad opinion or whatever, but how your participating in a discourse can have that amplification effect. I just don't blame people when after awhile social media gets ignored or folks lash out.

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Basically this.

 

[Jotakori]

People can get very, very mean with their opinions online, and I'd bet most of the time when devs (or artists/writers/etc) complain about how folks treat their hard work it's aimed specifically at those sorts of unnecessarily cruel comments. It's easy to forget just how big the internet is, and how there's probably hundreds of folks you don't see shitting all over the same thing in super aggressive ways you'd never see face-to-face.

I can't say I've ever been at the receiving end of an hour long video essay, but I imagine something like that would be way more likely to have thoughtful and valid criticisms over a 'fuck you and your shitty game' tweet. I doubt creators open to criticism have an issue with them unless they're literally just an hour of mean spirited hot takes -- which tbf I've definitely stumbled across before and boy do they suck, but at least it's much easier to just not watch something than it is to not read a quick, harsh tweet.

Personally speaking, when I critic something I just try to find good things to point out alongside the issues I have. It's honestly as simple as that.

 

[CBZ]

People can get very, very mean with their opinions online, and I'd bet most of the time when devs (or artists/writers/etc) complain about how folks treat their hard work it's aimed specifically at those sorts of unnecessarily cruel comments. It's easy to forget just how big the internet is, and how there's probably hundreds of folks you don't see shitting all over the same thing in super aggressive ways you'd never see face-to-face.

I can't say I've ever been at the receiving end of an hour long video essay, but I imagine something like that would be way more likely to have thoughtful and valid criticisms over a 'fuck you and your shitty game' tweet. I doubt creators open to criticism have an issue with them unless they're literally just an hour of mean spirited hot takes -- which tbf I've definitely stumbled across before and boy do they suck, but at least it's much easier to just not watch something than it is to not read a quick, harsh tweet.

Personally speaking, when I critic something I just try to find good things to point out alongside the issues I have. It's honestly as simple as that.

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Completely agreed with everything posted here.

 

[echoshifting]

The problem is the size of the feedback. One person saying that your work is bad is whatever. Hundreds of thousands of people saying your work is bad is utterly demoralizing, even if it's balanced out by people who like it. Months go into updates, years into entire projects, time that artists can't get back, that after awhile you start thinking "What the fuck was the point of it all?"

I work on a project that has had two major updates since my hiring, and there's a level of anxiousness that comes with releasing content into the wild and hoping people are satisfied with it, or at least, don't see the mistakes you do. One of my pain points on the release, something I wanna sneak back and fix, is simultaneously something fans aesthetically enjoy and point out quite a bit, so that's fun! At the same time, I know when the moment comes that the animation is nitpicked I'm just gonna crawl in a corner and hide under a blanket for a week lol.

I imagine for bigger AAA projects though, these feelings are exponentially amplified (especially if it's your parent company and not necessarily your talent that's at fault) and I can imagine someone on the project going "Hey, can you be a little more courteous and thoughtful?" And it's not about you as an individual having a bad opinion or whatever, but how your participating in a discourse can have that amplification effect. I just don't blame people when after awhile social media gets ignored or folks lash out.

Click to shrink...

Yeah I don't really disagree with these points. I would go a step farther with social media and say I think it's very difficult for a creative person with their work out in a public space to engage with most forms of social media in a way that is positive or productive. I think it should always be okay to disengage entirely with your fans on social media, and it's a shame that many creators in certain mediums feel compelled to stick it out, even when it's having a noticeable negative impact on their lives. I get it but it sucks. I wonder how often it's really worth it.

In the case of a large, collaborative product that is going to be altered and updated regularly, like an online game, I don't think there is any reason at all for the developers to feel like they need to engage with community feedback on a subreddit for every minor update. Carve out some budget for a community manager, that's why those roles exist. It's better for everyone involved to have that feedback summarized and to have the most constructive points highlighted. When the devs have to do it themselves it is nigh-inevitable that they tune it all out, for their own mental health if nothing else.

 

[mbpm]

I wish the word Discourse had never been invented.

I didn't really use Twitter actively until recently and had no idea people used the word to talk about, like, superhero movies and anime.

Click to shrink...

It's not the word, but that it was passed out of its intended audience and is now destroyed lol

Same with "woke" and so many other terms both big and small in modern living

 

[dancingphlower]

View: https://youtu.be/aJX4ytfqw6k

I always think of this video lol

 

[Nepenthe]

Yeah I don't really disagree with these points. I would go a step farther with social media and say I think it's very difficult for a creative person with their work out in a public space to engage with most forms of social media in a way that is positive or productive. I think it should always be okay to disengage entirely with your fans on social media, and it's a shame that many creators in certain mediums feel compelled to do so. I get it but it sucks. I wonder how often it's really worth it.

In the case of a large, collaborative product that is going to be altered and updated regularly, like an online game, I don't think there is any reason at all for the developers to feel like they need to engage with community feedback on a subreddit for every minor update. Carve out some budget for a community manager, that's why those roles exist. It's better for everyone involved to have that feedback summarized and to have the most constructive points highlighted. When the devs have to do it themselves it is nigh-inevitable that they tune it all out, for their own mental health if nothing else.

Click to shrink...

We have QA + community managers on our team specifically to deal with feedback, but mainly that's limited to interacting with the community Discord and dealing with any crash logs that come in. Or game is small enough that we can deal with it on that level, but there's no way in Hell I'd expect that consistent level of engagement for larger projects, especially on the likes of Twitter and Reddit. You get a dev update or an AMA and that should be it.

 

[mbpm]

The problem is the size of the feedback. One person saying that your work is bad is whatever. Hundreds of thousands of people saying your work is bad is utterly demoralizing, even if it's balanced out by people who like it. Months go into updates, years into entire projects, time that artists can't get back, that after awhile you start thinking "What the fuck was the point of it all?"

I work on a project that has had two major updates since my hiring, and there's a level of anxiousness that comes with releasing content into the wild and hoping people are satisfied with it, or at least, don't see the mistakes you do. One of my pain points on the release, something I wanna sneak back and fix, is simultaneously something fans aesthetically enjoy and point out quite a bit, so that's fun! At the same time, I know when the moment comes that the animation is nitpicked I'm just gonna crawl in a corner and hide under a blanket for a week lol.

I imagine for bigger AAA projects though, these feelings are exponentially amplified (especially if it's your parent company and not necessarily your talent that's at fault) and I can imagine someone on the project going "Hey, can you be a little more courteous and thoughtful?" And it's not about you as an individual having a bad opinion or whatever, but how your participating in a discourse can have that amplification effect. I just don't blame people when after awhile social media gets ignored or folks lash out.

Click to shrink...

It's interesting you mention this, because I find that the bigger a work is the less inclined I am to go into detail with something unless something really disagrees or agrees with me.

Like if it's so big, my thinking is all the points that I might say to identify key parts of a work are already out there. So, I just say, I didn't like this, or I liked this.

 

[Doug Dimmadome]

I feel like people criticize things to present some kind of aura of authority. To criticize something, you need to have an understanding of how that particular piece of media should be constructed. So picking it apart presents some kind of in depth knowledge of what makes something "good". This leads to all kinds of criticisms that are either dumb, or in bad faith. I see it all the time when people mention "pacing" in the youtube comments of an MCU movie review. At no point will they describe what "good" pacing is. Only that X movie "had some pacing problems. Or they'll conflate good cinematography with pretty wide shots of characters standing in silhouette against a brightly lit backdrop.

Personally, I think it takes far more skill and nuance to describe why something is good, rather than bad. It's why Tim Rogers is the best media reviewer imo and his content largely relies on talking about things he actually likes rather than presenting reasons you should NOT like something

 

[Ashes of Dreams]

There's no consistent rule about how to talk, it's all about context. If someone asks you what you think about a movie and you say "it sucked", that's fine. There's no obligation for you to have an 8 page essay ready for every piece of media you don't like. But if someone is posting online about how they like that movie and you reply "wtf is wrong with you, that movie sucked", then you're kinda being a jerk.

Honestly I was turned off from online discourse a lot in the early 2010s because every game I loved was just nonstop shit on. Which is like whatever, people can dislike the things I like. But when I'm talking about why I like something and someone comes in and says I have shit taste because I liked it, that's lame.

I also think some people who dislike things have this habit where they need to come into every conversation about it and express that they think it sucks. I don't know what people think they're adding jumping into a positive thread about Final Fantasy XIII or Dark Souls 2 just to shit on it but it's obnoxious. If you have something with more substance to say or a specific point to respond to, so be it. We know some people don't like it, so if that's all you have to say maybe reconsider your post.

Personally I try to avoid blanket statements like "this sucks", "this is shit", "this is bad". I tend to favor things like "I hate this" more. Do I need to do that? No. But I know from experience it makes conversations healthier. It also leads more naturally into a conversation about what does and doesn't work for me and why I didn't like that, which is presumably what I'm trying to accomplish by talking about something I disliked it.
Only exception is when something is morally shitty like pedophile anime shit or bigotry, that doesn't get the courtesy of my subjectivity.

 

[Nepenthe]

It's interesting you mention this, because I find that the bigger a work is the less inclined I am to go into detail with something unless something really disagrees or agrees with me.

Like if it's so big, my thinking is all the points that I might say to identify key parts of a work are already out there. So, I just say, I didn't like this, or I liked this.

Click to shrink...

I can see that. Bigger works are afforded a certain protection in that sense, where social media has probably already chewed through everything to say about them in a short amount of time, good or bad, and thus the highs or lows might not linger. However, I think this becomes a bit precipitous when you're talking about works that are controversial for whatever reason- new stories that differ from established trends, the introduction of minorities, projects that fail to live up to hype, or ongoing development projects that lose goodwill for whatever reason. When people have some sort of attachment to a big project or a legacy property, that's when you start seeing all of the harassment and death threats and shit. It's why I've already decided there's nothing you could do to get me to work on Star Wars.

 

[Scottt]

Ebert once said somewhere that criticism should examine how/whether a work of art succeeds at what it wants to accomplish.

 

[Zeliard]

My bigger problem outside of the poisonous anti-woke sentiment permeating every fanbase is that people repeat the same damn criticism for everything like it's some tic they can't shake off. It's just boring as hell and makes it sound like the person is incapable of independent thought (which they usually are of course, but when they insist on going for the low-hanging fruit, the difference is indistinguishable).

People will overly fixate on a single scene or line of dialogue or whatever to such an exaggerated extent that you start to wonder, if that's the only thing wrong with the show or movie, it's gotta be pretty damn good. I know in certain cases a certain lame scene might be a microcosm of what's wrong with the movie as a whole, but when everyone repeats the same thing it starts to become very uninteresting. It just becomes some lame truism; yes we get that this particular scene was bad because it's been pointed out by 10,000 other people, anything else?

It's also incredibly obvious when someone is just parroting some tiresome nitpicky youtuber since they basically all sound the same, with the same focus also often combined with a profound lack of media literacy (these people have permanently destroyed the concept of a plot hole), and a lot of times these "criticisms" are also memed endlessly which exacerbates everything.

 

[HardTimesFamilyPride]

There's no consistent rule about how to talk, it's all about context. If someone asks you what you think about a movie and you say "it sucked", that's fine. There's no obligation for you to have an 8 page essay ready for every piece of media you don't like. But if someone is posting online about how they like that movie and you reply "wtf is wrong with you, that movie sucked", then you're kinda being a jerk.

Honestly I was turned off from online discourse a lot in the early 2010s because every game I loved was just nonstop shit on. Which is like whatever, people can dislike the things I like. But when I'm talking about why I like something and someone comes in and says I have shit taste because I liked it, that's lame.

I also think some people who dislike things have this habit where they need to come into every conversation about it and express that they think it sucks. I don't know what people think they're adding jumping into a positive thread about Final Fantasy XIII or Dark Souls 2 just to shit on it but it's obnoxious. If you have something with more substance to say or a specific point to respond to, so be it. We know some people don't like it, so if that's all you have to say maybe reconsider your post.

Personally I try to avoid blanket statements like "this sucks", "this is shit", "this is bad". I tend to favor things like "I hate this" more. Do I need to do that? No. But I know from experience it makes conversations healthier. It also leads more naturally into a conversation about what does and doesn't work for me and why I didn't like that, which is presumably what I'm trying to accomplish by talking about something I disliked it.
Only exception is when something is morally shitty like pedophile anime shit or bigotry, that doesn't get the courtesy of my subjectivity.

Click to shrink...

Lotta posts I agree with in here, but this one resonated the most with me. I've said it before but I just think that in a place like the Internet, you're usually around lots of people with lots of different tastes and backgrounds, a lotta folks go online these days with their guards already up and putting in the little effort to word yourself in a better way than saying "this is good/bad" about everything is just ensuring everyone feels welcome to share their thoughts. If people recognize that you're putting in that effort to make space for them, they'll usually put in the effort to make space for you, as well.

I had experiences like what you're talking about in your first paragraph in person. A co-worker/friend of mine asked me what I'd been playing recently one day. I told him I had started replaying Skyward Sword, and I was literally in the middle of telling him that I was overall enjoying it and that I had a soft spot for that game & the controls and he just went on this spiel about how motion controls suck and they should have never been developed and they ruin everything. I just looked at him and said "Dude I was literally telling you that I enjoy this and you're just gonna respond with that? You're gonna tell me to my face that something I like shouldn't exist because you don't like it?" and I walked the fuck off lol. A few days later he came up to me and apologized and said he'd been thinking about what I said and realized that it wasn't a nice way to talk to other people... but once he realized that, he realized all of his friends talked like that and it messed him up a bit.

And I agree about "this is shit" vs "I hate this" differentiation. I actually find it kinda funny when people lean into the whole "just put 'imo' at the beginning of every sentence" thing, because they're really missing out on all these cool creative ways to explain just how much they don't like something without making these objectively phrased statements. Just saying "I loathe this game" is already way more awesome than "this is shit", and it isn't worded in a way that implies other people's opinions or the devs' work are invalid! And like you said, that's a good opening to discuss why I loathe that title, and that's where sometimes someone will tell you how they were approaching it and sometimes it gives you just what you need to find your enjoyment from it. Or the other way around!

 

[Zeliard]

I wanted to add on to my previous post really quickly just for the sake of clarity that I have absolutely zero problems with people who don't feel comfortable expressing their opinions in their own words for any number of reasons - they're posting on a forum where the primary language is their 2nd or 3rd, or they just don't feel like typing anything up. So they'll post their own thoughts by sharing some article or youtube video that represents how they feel about X subject, both in and out of media.

I know a lot of times people are hesitant to give their opinion in their own words for totally genuine and understandable reasons.

I'm totally cool with all that, with the one caveat that if you're going to do that with something like a youtube video, it should be a reasonable length (or be properly timestamped) since it's meant to substitute a post you ideally want people to read.

 

[John Doe]

Lotta posts I agree with in here, but this one resonated the most with me. I've said it before but I just think that in a place like the Internet, you're usually around lots of people with lots of different tastes and backgrounds, a lotta folks go online these days with their guards already up and putting in the little effort to word yourself in a better way than saying "this is good/bad" about everything is just ensuring everyone feels welcome to share their thoughts. If people recognize that you're putting in that effort to make space for them, they'll usually put in the effort to make space for you, as well.

I had experiences like what you're talking about in your first paragraph in person. A co-worker/friend of mine asked me what I'd been playing recently one day. I told him I had started replaying Skyward Sword, and I was literally in the middle of telling him that I was overall enjoying it and that I had a soft spot for that game & the controls and he just went on this spiel about how motion controls suck and they should have never been developed and they ruin everything. I just looked at him and said "Dude I was literally telling you that I enjoy this and you're just gonna respond with that? You're gonna tell me to my face that something I like shouldn't exist because you don't like it?" and I walked the fuck off lol. A few days later he came up to me and apologized and said he'd been thinking about what I said and realized that it wasn't a nice way to talk to other people... but once he realized that, he realized all of his friends talked like that and it messed him up a bit.

And I agree about "this is shit" vs "I hate this" differentiation. I actually find it kinda funny when people lean into the whole "just put 'imo' at the beginning of every sentence" thing, because they're really missing out on all these cool creative ways to explain just how much they don't like something without making these objectively phrased statements. Just saying "I loathe this game" is already way more awesome than "this is shit", and it isn't worded in a way that implies other people's opinions or the devs' work are invalid! And like you said, that's a good opening to discuss why I loathe that title, and that's where sometimes someone will tell you how they were approaching it and sometimes it gives you just what you need to find your enjoyment from it. Or the other way around!

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I agree with a lot of posts as well but this spoke to me. I never had an interaction like this in person because I generally don't talk about video games in public, tbh I haven't played any new video games in a minute. Anyway, as a kid I loved Legend of Dragoon and it was a bit of bummer when I looked up the game online years after and found out it was pretty much panned everywhere. The criticisms weren't even wrong or anything, but I liked it.

 

[mrmickfran]

I almost immediately tune out any "X is complete shit" or "X is one of the worst movies/games that I've ever watched/played." because people say that about anything that it's hard to take seriously.

 

[CesareNorrez]

In the case of a large, collaborative product that is going to be altered and updated regularly, like an online game, I don't think there is any reason at all for the developers to feel like they need to engage with community feedback on a subreddit for every minor update. Carve out some budget for a community manager, that's why those roles exist. It's better for everyone involved to have that feedback summarized and to have the most constructive points highlighted. When the devs have to do it themselves it is nigh-inevitable that they tune it all out, for their own mental health if nothing else.

Click to shrink...

One problem is how much people feel compelled to announce how one piece is better than another. So a developer could totally avoid engaging in their community, but then they go to another community where there are people loudly proclaiming how much better this similar work is than the one this other developer, just minding their business, worked on.

It's not so easy to avoid it, and it's a little weird how the people creating art are the ones we think should interact less with the world. But I know there is no way to account for that individually.

 

[HardTimesFamilyPride]

Anyway, as a kid I loved Legend of Dragoon and it was a bit of bummer when I looked up the game online years after and found out it was pretty much panned everywhere. The criticisms weren't even wrong or anything, but I liked it.

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That was good ol' Bubsy 3D for me 😁 not even sure I can say I liked it, but I did play the hell out of it, and I have some fond memories of it.

 

[MidnightEquinox]

There is a right way. If you're a journalist or generally experienced in the field person. I don't know where to even find that, though. I haven't seen quality game criticism in forever, I feel. I think most writers are sadly bought out or badly incentivized so most "criticism" is rather corrupted by this point. Yes, this includes Sterling.

Other than that, there are reviews. Reviews are personal views and need to be presented as such. I'm good with reviews. I like reading what people think and when it's sorted properly I find it quite helpful to find a good game, or to be warned that a game is super buggy or something.

There's way too many people who confuse their heated opinion or a collective hivemind opinion with criticism. "Devs are lazy because they didn't add this feature I want and look at me I'm super loud!" is not criticism. Most game reddits are garbage because of this, for instance. Especially god forbid you like an online game with some problems.

 

[mbpm]

Anyway, as a kid I loved Legend of Dragoon and it was a bit of bummer when I looked up the game online years after and found out it was pretty much panned everywhere. The criticisms weren't even wrong or anything, but I liked it.

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What, I had no idea. That's too bad that people didn't like it.

 

[Zeliard]

What, I had no idea. That's too bad that people didn't like it.

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Legend of Dragoon was for a time fairly reviled but as these things go, time has been kind to it and it's something of a cult classic these days.

Time has a tendency of softening a lot of harsh things and that includes a lot of criticism, and the contemporary general reception to something.

The Last Jedi is a really good modern example of that. It was next to impossible to compliment it for about two or three years after its release without being bombarded by naysayers, but that's slowly turned around to where at the very least there's a larger appreciation for things like its cinematography and some of its more ambitious qualities.

These things are also colored by what comes after; Rise of Skywalker being such a cliched disappointment to so many made Last Jedi seem fresher and more interesting in retrospect even in the minds of a lot of its critics.

 

[julia crawford]

I guess a lot of stuff can be said but it's more about what you want to say, do you really want to be the person who just says that things suck or prove that you know better than others or whatever? Aiming to always add in some way either to a discussion or to a community and choosing not to be antagonistic or toxic is a worthy effort regardless of what is "allowed" tbh

 

[skeezx]

well speaking for myself my rule is basically just don't shitpost. i.e. "shit sucks coz i says so"

 

[TissueBox]

Just be respectful and kind if the person responsible for whatever you're criticizing is also reading/hearing your comment. If they're a decent tempered person they will reply
back respectfully as well.

Also worth noting that there's always someone that worked really hard on something really crappy, be it a horrible movie or horrible game or horrible mural. You can call out something for being poor in quality or lazily made but if a few individuals did put a lot of effort into it, then they will still have that emotional investment, because it's personal for them. Doesn't mean whatever they say is correct or incorrect or otherwise, just something to keep in mind when dealing with these kind of exchanges.

 

[Zeliard]

Just be respectful and kind if the person responsible for whatever you're criticizing is also reading/hearing your comment. If they're a decent tempered person they will reply back respectfully as well.

Also worth noting that there's always someone that worked really hard on something really crappy, be it a horrible movie or horrible game or horrible book. You can call out something for being poor in quality or lazily made but a few individuals did put a lot of effort into it, then they will still have that emotional investment, because it's personal for them. Doesn't mean whatever they say is correct or incorrect or otherwise, just something to keep in mind when dealing with these kind of exchanges.

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Yeah I really dislike any criticism that tries to sort of mind-read or cast aspersions on the creator outside of rare exceptions (if someone is writing a political article they are probably opening themselves up to that).

Calling a game dev or writer or director lazy is always pretty ugly to me. Through their work they can be conveying what are to you dreadful politics, or really just making what you consider a terrible game or movie, but they probably still put a lot effort into it. It takes a whole lot of work even to make shit. Calling them lazy is far lazier than anything they're doing.

Same thing with "pretentious." That's a long-time pet peeve of mine. It's probably the single most boring criticism out there; every creation shared with the public is an act of pretense, and there's no way for you to know how genuinely it was intended.

 

[Ashes of Dreams]

Lotta posts I agree with in here, but this one resonated the most with me. I've said it before but I just think that in a place like the Internet, you're usually around lots of people with lots of different tastes and backgrounds, a lotta folks go online these days with their guards already up and putting in the little effort to word yourself in a better way than saying "this is good/bad" about everything is just ensuring everyone feels welcome to share their thoughts. If people recognize that you're putting in that effort to make space for them, they'll usually put in the effort to make space for you, as well.

I had experiences like what you're talking about in your first paragraph in person. A co-worker/friend of mine asked me what I'd been playing recently one day. I told him I had started replaying Skyward Sword, and I was literally in the middle of telling him that I was overall enjoying it and that I had a soft spot for that game & the controls and he just went on this spiel about how motion controls suck and they should have never been developed and they ruin everything. I just looked at him and said "Dude I was literally telling you that I enjoy this and you're just gonna respond with that? You're gonna tell me to my face that something I like shouldn't exist because you don't like it?" and I walked the fuck off lol. A few days later he came up to me and apologized and said he'd been thinking about what I said and realized that it wasn't a nice way to talk to other people... but once he realized that, he realized all of his friends talked like that and it messed him up a bit.

And I agree about "this is shit" vs "I hate this" differentiation. I actually find it kinda funny when people lean into the whole "just put 'imo' at the beginning of every sentence" thing, because they're really missing out on all these cool creative ways to explain just how much they don't like something without making these objectively phrased statements. Just saying "I loathe this game" is already way more awesome than "this is shit", and it isn't worded in a way that implies other people's opinions or the devs' work are invalid! And like you said, that's a good opening to discuss why I loathe that title, and that's where sometimes someone will tell you how they were approaching it and sometimes it gives you just what you need to find your enjoyment from it. Or the other way around!

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Great post! You totally get what I was trying to say. Skyward Sword is definitely another game that gets this a lot. I had an irl moment with a co-worker when the Switch port had just come out too. Was in the middle of saying what I liked about the game when he just started going off about how bad it was. The real kicker was when at the end it turned out he hadn't actually played the game himself, just heard it was bad from youtube. Like just going at a thing I'm saying I like for no reason but youtube said it was bad.

Still, it's not as bad as it was in the first half of the 2010s for me. At the time when I was super into games like Skyward Sword, Final Fantasy XIII, Dragon Age 2, Mass Effect 3, etc. And very into the final seasons of LOST. I got so sick of people trashing me for the things I was into and everyone being very aggressive about how much they think the things I like sucked that it changed how I interacted with the internet. I completely dropped places like video game news sites comment sections and like two forums I was still going on because I was just sick of it. Almost dropped forums altogether but ended up just sticking with a small handful.

What's really frustrating too is that when you try to talk to some people about how the way they're behaving just makes me not want to talk to them they will get defensive and give some variation of "it's not my fault if you can't handle people disliking something you like" and it's like... no, I always make sure to clarify that is FINE. Honestly, some of my favorite conversations about video games have been debates about games with people who hate something I like, but we both respect the experience of the other and are just having an actual debate about mechanics or writing. Just don't approach the conversation with some condescending attitude where you want to tell me a thing I love is shit and we'll probably be fine. It's actually interesting to me to figure out what does and doesn't speak to me versus other people.

I remember one moment where I had this amazing conversation with a friend about Sonic. I explained what I saw as the core things that made the classic Sonic games work, why they appealed to me, and what I think they did well. This friend hated Sonic and didn't see the appeal at all. They expressed what their issue was and we had a back and forth that lasted about 20 minutes where we really isolated down exactly what it was that wasn't working for them about Sonic versus other 2D platformers they did like. In the end we both understood where each other were coming from and I actually gave them some suggestions for games I think they'd like that they ended up trying and loved. This conversation was so good. I got to talk about what I liked and felt heard. They got to talk about what they didn't like and felt heard. And we walked away both enjoying it.

And then like two days later I try to have a similar conversation with someone else and they just give me the "nah, Sonic always sucked, it's so fucking bad" followed by the laundry list of bad criticism everyone has about the series. I tried to poke and prod a bit about what wasn't working for them while explaining what I liked about it, just like the previous conversation, and they just got really condescending and told me that they didn't think the things I like were intentional because Sonic Team is too incompetent to design things well. I walked away so annoyed and like... which of these two people am I likely to go back to for conversations about video games? lol

 

[TissueBox]

It takes a whole lot of work even to make shit. Calling them lazy is far lazier than anything they're doing.

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MM-hmm. I'm always reminded of a quote by Amy Hennig (I forget where it was from exactly, I'll try to find it, I think it was in one of the behind the scenes stuff for Uncharted) which sums this exact sentiment up perfectly:

"Sure it [the game] is a piece of crap but they worked their ass off to make that piece of crap."

 

[Deleted member 49482]

There's no consistent rule about how to talk, it's all about context. If someone asks you what you think about a movie and you say "it sucked", that's fine. There's no obligation for you to have an 8 page essay ready for every piece of media you don't like. But if someone is posting online about how they like that movie and you reply "wtf is wrong with you, that movie sucked", then you're kinda being a jerk.

Honestly I was turned off from online discourse a lot in the early 2010s because every game I loved was just nonstop shit on. Which is like whatever, people can dislike the things I like. But when I'm talking about why I like something and someone comes in and says I have shit taste because I liked it, that's lame.

I also think some people who dislike things have this habit where they need to come into every conversation about it and express that they think it sucks. I don't know what people think they're adding jumping into a positive thread about Final Fantasy XIII or Dark Souls 2 just to shit on it but it's obnoxious. If you have something with more substance to say or a specific point to respond to, so be it. We know some people don't like it, so if that's all you have to say maybe reconsider your post.

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Damn, this post hit. I've been getting pretty jaded with the "internet" lately. People shitting on things with total disregard for context or without "reading the room" is just getting tiresome for me. There was a time where I felt the internet was a place you could go to talk about the things you liked with other like-minded people, and while that is definitely still true to some degree, I feel that there was a shift at some point where so much internet "discourse" is now about voicing criticism and even just downright negativity, and often doing so in a needlessly inflammatory manner.

HardTimesFamilyPride had a good anecdote about someone ruining the vibe with needless negativity while they sharing something they enjoyed. That anecdote, along with Ashes of Dreams' last paragraph in the quote above, is what a lot of modern internet conversation feels like to me.