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Deleted member 888

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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Loot boxes remain a contentious issue in videogames. Having impacted the industry significantly in 2017, politicians have called for tighter regulation, while some analysts have questioned the profitability of single-player games going forward. The enduring success of The Witcher 3 against last year's highest-selling games, however, suggests players remain invested in solo adventures.

In November, CD Projekt Red CEO Adam Kiciński proposed its long-awaited Cyberpunk 2077 will include online elements to ensure its long-term success. With this in mind, I ask the developer's co-founder Marcin Iwiński where he and his team stand with loot boxes—suggesting the controversial mechanic has dominated the conversation around single-versus-multiplayer games in the last 12 months.

"'Conversation' sounds way too nice to describe what was happening last year. I would rather call it community backlash," says Iwiński . "And this time around, it wasn't just the hardcore community, there were a lot of really pissed off gamers out there and they decided to speak up. Where we stand is quite simple and you could see it with all of our past releases—most recently The Witcher 3: Wild Hunt and GWENT. If you buy a full priced game, you should get a big, polished piece of content, which gives you many, many hours of fun gameplay.

"The definition of 'many' may vary on a title-by-title basis, but in our case it was always 50-60+ hours of the main story-line, with up to a couple of hundred of hours of side activities—if you really wanted to max out the title. To me, this is a fair deal. You get what you paid for, plus we are always trying our best to overdeliver. There is no better PR than a happy gamer recommending your title to their friends."

Iwiński continues: "Then there's additional paid content. What we call Expansions (not DLC, mind you). Things like add-ons way back in the Baldur's Gate era. We released two Expansions like that, and each of them was a meaningful piece of content delivering many hours of new story and gameplay. Finally, there are the DLCs. For us, they're small pieces of content which should be available for free (and that was the case with TW3).

Iwiński emphasises the need for transparency from developers, and that information about their games should be readily available to players. Players can then make well-informed decisions with their money, and if they buy a full-priced game, says Iwiński, they should get "numerous hours of gameplay and a significant amount of content" for their cash.

"The moment they feel you are reaching out for their wallet in any unfair way, they will be vocal about it. And—frankly speaking—I think it's good for the industry," Iwiński adds. "Things often look great from a spreadsheet perspective, but decision makers often aren't asking themselves the question of 'How would gamers feel, or is this offer a fair one?'. Gamers are striking back, and I really hope this will change our industry for the better."

More @ https://www.pcgamer.com/cd-projekt-red-responds-to-loot-box-controversy/
 

galv

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,048
CDPR stay winning. They're definitely a positive force on the industry. It helps when everyone is held to Witcher 3 standards, just look at how Assassin's Creed changed for the better.
 

GameZone

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,838
Norway
I`m sure they sell lots of games because of their goodwill, not only because the games are great. I`m sure the developers of Kingdom Come are following the same path.
 

Jaybe00

Banned
Nov 21, 2017
88
Such a excellent gamer-centric perspective. When suits see the playerbase through the lens of spreadsheet models, lifetime value, and spend metrics like you were a cellphone subscriber, they dilute what makes the medium great. And in the longterm, delivering what your audience wants, is the best course even if you leave some short term money on the table.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
I`m sure they sell lots of games because of their goodwill, not only because the games are great. I`m sure the developers of Kingdom Come are following the same path.

Also because they give a shit about trying to do DLC "correctly"

Iwiński continues: "Then there's additional paid content. What we call Expansions (not DLC, mind you). Things like add-ons way back in the Baldur's Gate era. We released two Expansions like that, and each of them was a meaningful piece of content delivering many hours of new story and gameplay. Finally, there are the DLCs. For us, they're small pieces of content which should be available for free (and that was the case with TW3).

Not furiously nickel and diming for everything.
 

Paul

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,603
Common sense, treat people well, provide good product, market it well, and you will get treated well in return.
 

Thrill_house

Member
Oct 27, 2017
10,631
Thats what I like to hear. We hardly get expansions anymore with single player games. Breaks my heart that bethesda has given up on them. Bloodmoon and tribunal shit all over almost every dlc/wannabe xpac they have put out since...well besides shivering isles. That was pretty good.
 

Lemstar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
738
"The above covers full-price titles, but there's also free-to-play territory. Here we have GWENT, where you can buy card kegs and some vanity items. Again, the deal is simple—you can play the game for free and craft your desired card collection this way, or decide to spend money and get card kegs. The choice is yours, and the only thing you pay for is time and convenience."

convenient sidestep of the fact that they're literally doing the exact same thing, but PC Gamer doesn't see fit to point it out


the internet's adoration of CDPR because of one PR stunt they pulled about releasing free DLC is something I find incomprehensible
 

Nirolak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,660
I'm kind of surprised you excluded his comment on their own lootbox game:

"The above covers full-price titles, but there's also free-to-play territory. Here we have GWENT, where you can buy card kegs and some vanity items. Again, the deal is simple—you can play the game for free and craft your desired card collection this way, or decide to spend money and get card kegs. The choice is yours, and the only thing you pay for is time and convenience."
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
The internet's adoration of CDPR because of one PR stunt they pulled about releasing free DLC is something I find incomprehensible

One PR stunt? Okay.

I'm kind of surprised you excluded his comment on their own lootbox game:

It's always wise to visit the link for the whole article. Most will pay more attention to CDPR for their traditional paid for games and what they do in them. I'm not too familiar with Gwent personally, F2P card games aren't my thing.
 

Green Marine

Member
Oct 25, 2017
324
El Paso
That's a lot of nice words but he doesn't answer the question.

Also, are GOG and CDPR headcount kept at arm's length? They were literally selling loot boxes for games last fall, not just for content within games. That was a bizarre one to me, they are not some key reseller like GMG that needs to come up with schemes to draw attention.
 

Lt-47

Member
Dec 1, 2017
143
"The above covers full-price titles, but there's also free-to-play territory. Here we have GWENT, where you can buy card kegs and some vanity items. Again, the deal is simple—you can play the game for free and craft your desired card collection this way, or decide to spend money and get card kegs. The choice is yours, and the only thing you pay for is time and convenience."

Eeeh... that's how MT/lootbox works in most games, that's not really an innovative player centric concept. I don't play cards game so I wonder how the people that feel that Heartstone is P2W think of Gwent.

I like CDProjekt but I'm not too impressed by this answer.
 
Last edited:

Chairman Yang

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,587
Yeah, Gwent kind of punctures their entire stance. I'll be impressed if they switch it over to a better model.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,398
One PR stunt? Okay.



It's always wise to visit the link for the whole article. Most will pay more attention to CDPR for their traditional paid for games and what they do in them. I'm not too familiar with Gwent personally, F2P card games aren't my thing.
Even then, the question was specifically around Cyberpunk, which will break with their past games and follow the GaaS model, because according to CDPR that's where the big monetary success lies. And then he completely dodges the question by talking about their old model.
 
Oct 27, 2017
317
"The above covers full-price titles, but there's also free-to-play territory. Here we have GWENT, where you can buy card kegs and some vanity items. Again, the deal is simple—you can play the game for free and craft your desired card collection this way, or decide to spend money and get card kegs. The choice is yours, and the only thing you pay for is time and convenience."

convenient sidestep of the fact that they're literally doing the exact same thing, but PC Gamer doesn't see fit to point it out
It's a F2P mobile card game, shitty business models are a defining part of the genre and the entire F2P industry unfortunately. I also don't personally give a shit about Gwent and so long as these practices don't influence their singleplayer games then I'm fine with it existing in its own corner.

the internet's adoration of CDPR because of one PR stunt they pulled about releasing free DLC is something I find incomprehensible
A pro-consumer PR stunt is still pro-consumer.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Even then, the question was specifically around Cyberpunk, which will break with their past games and follow the GaaS model, because according to CDPR that's where the big monetary success lies. And then he completely dodges the question by talking about their old model.

Well I mean you can place your bets now on whether or not Cyberpunk will have loot boxes, lots of paid for cosmetics and really poor/short paid for DLC. I think making these kinds of statements including this tweet



Makes it clear they're aiming for more of TW3 for the SP portion at the very least.

It's pretty funny to see gamers now attacking CD Project Red because they're saying the right thing and given the state of the rest of the industry this must be a conspiracy and/or lies.
 

Spartancarver

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
3,453
"Then there's additional paid content. What we call Expansions (not DLC, mind you). Things like add-ons way back in the Baldur's Gate era. We released two Expansions like that, and each of them was a meaningful piece of content delivering many hours of new story and gameplay. Finally, there are the DLCs. For us, they're small pieces of content which should be available for free (and that was the case with TW3).

I love this man.

CDPR will always have a purchase from me. Bought and played Witcher 3 + the expansions on PC and PS4, multiple playthroughs on both systems, sublime experience, no regrets.
 

GavinUK86

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,746
Yeah, I trust CDPR to always do the right thing. GOG is a beautiful place and they did right with The Witcher series. Now give us Cyberpunk.
They produced three good games, one of which is one of the best games of the last decade, so surely they can be trusted.
Right guys?

Fixed that awful typo you had there.
 

His Majesty

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,173
Belgium
Oh no, those sneaky developers are making me fall in love with them with their pro-consumer attitude and actions. Who shall put an end to their devious scheming?
 
Nov 8, 2017
13,121
Yeah, Gwent kind of punctures their entire stance. I'll be impressed if they switch it over to a better model.
Eeeh... that's how MT/lootbox works in most games, that's not really an innovative player centric concept. I don't play cards game so I wonder how the people that feel that Heartstone is P2W think of Gwent.

I like CDProjekt but I'm not too impressed by this answer.

I don't have a dog in the fight but from memory Jim has said a lot of times "If you have f2p mechanics, then make it f2p" or similar. So I think a fair few people are probably ok with a free game behaving differently than a $60 upfront experience.
 

Forsaken82

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,927
Eeeh... that how MT/lootbox works in most games, that's not really an innovative player centric concept. I don't play cards game so I wonder how the people that feel that Heartstone is P2W think of Gwent.

I don't think Hearthstone is Pay 2 Win, and I don't think Gwent is either. There is certainly the Pay to improve your odds of being better like any TCG on the market like Magic. The more money you spend, the more likely the change to gain a signficant upgrade to your deck, but with that said, there are examples of purely free decks in hearthstone where smart play beats superior decks.
 
Oct 26, 2017
2,780
Yep, Gwent (and most other CCG) have packs of cards that are just lootboxes with another name. The difference in the rate of getting cards in playing for free vs paying is pretty big, AND they are lootboxes it affects the gameplay, it isn't cosmetic. It isn't done on top of a $60 price tag, but I wouldn't say they are totally free of guilty.
 

Shifty1897

Member
Oct 28, 2017
702
CDPR is the most pro-consumer developer out there. They always have been. Give credit where credit is due.
 

Lemstar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
738
CDPR's announcement of a free DLC release schedule for TW3 was what shifted the storyline around them as a studio from being noteworthy devs of a good RPG series to the shining crusaders of pro-consumer policies. Their reworks of TW1 and TW2 through the Enhanced Edition updates received maybe a sliver of the attention despite being far more important.

And here's something else that people seem to gloss over when they're busy lauding them - the DLC packs started coming out the week after the game's release. The obvious implication there is that it's stuff they worked on and possibly finished making before the game was released, because making content like that is nontrivial and it'd make no sense for the studio's workflow if they were crunching for four months to get some free content out every week when they should have been logically working on the expansion packs instead.

When other studios do this, they get crucified for "cutting out content" or "on-disc DLC," but CDPR magically deflected any such accusations.
 

Chris.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,920
While they're somewhat correct and I hate to go against them, they're also based in Poland where the cost of living is ridiculously low compared to places like America and UK and thus the wages too, so it's much easier for them to say things like this than most companies.

They also own Gwent and while that's one of the better examples and extremely generous, and lootboxes are kinda necessary for those types of games, it does have lootboxes so it's not like CDPR are innocent either. Their comments about this is true for almost every other game too, the only difference is Gwent seems to be far more generous than any of the other games.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
Yep, Gwent (and most other CCG) have packs of cards that are just lootboxes with another name. The difference in the rate of getting cards in playing for free vs paying is pretty big, AND they are lootboxes it affects the gameplay, it isn't cosmetic. It isn't done on top of a $60 price tag, but I wouldn't say they are totally free of guilty.

Gwent sounds like trash then and should be lumped in with the rest of them. Being F2P gives it a little leeway, but known drop rates and everything else like that should still apply. What most will be happy about here however is a recommitment to doing paid DLC in paid games "correctly", and it sounding like they are not going to turn Cyberpunk into Shadow of War or Forza 7.

CDPR's announcement of a free DLC release schedule for TW3 was what shifted the storyline around them as a studio from being noteworthy devs of a good RPG series to the shining crusaders of pro-consumer policies. Their reworks of TW1 and TW2 through the Enhanced Edition updates received maybe a sliver of the attention despite being far more important.

And here's something else that people seem to gloss over when they're busy lauding them - the DLC packs started coming out the week after the game's release. The obvious implication there is that it's stuff they worked on and possibly finished making before the game was released, because making content like that is nontrivial and it'd make no sense for the studio's workflow if they were crunching for four months to get some free content out every week when they should have been logically working on the expansion packs instead.

When other studios do this, they get crucified for "cutting out content" or "on-disc DLC," but CDPR magically deflected any such accusations.

When your games are this size and the content is still released for free even if it comes weeks after launch, and then the actual paid DLC follow ups are proper traditional expansion packs, you do grow some support and fans.

It's like, if gamers are attacking this, then what on earth is acceptable for you?

On-disc DLC was criticised because it was often PAID content, not free content.
 

Faithless

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,183
Thank you for these wise words.
Hope it will never change.
Cyberpunk 2077, I'm waiting for you.
 

defaltoption

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
11,491
Austin
One of the best dev teams out there atm, cant wait to enjoy the F out of there future games Day 1 and as long as their dlc models resemble the witchers I have no problem scooping up all of the dlc too
 

Ramuh

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
839
Jesus they get things right. Who owns CD Project? Is it mainly investors or privately owned?
 

Vadara

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,565
CDPR is truly a master at cynical demagoguery designed to fool gamers into thinking they care about anything other than their money.
 
Oct 29, 2017
2,398
Well I mean you can place your bets now on whether or not Cyberpunk will have loot boxes, lots of paid for cosmetics and really poor/short paid for DLC. I think making these kinds of statements including this tweet



Makes it clear they're aiming for more of TW3 for the SP portion at the very least.

It's pretty funny to see gamers now attacking CD Project Red because they're saying the right thing and given the state of the rest of the industry this must be a conspiracy and/or lies.

I'm sure the SP will be fine and I don't mean to hate too much, CDPR will provide value for your initial purchase (in fact I found TW3 to take way too long and would have prefered the main campaign to have been cut by half). But greed is a nebulous term. They can use the 60 hour campaign to lootbox the fuck out of the game and still say but you have your 60 hour campaign! Value!

And then there's also this
Both sources of the rumor stressed that CD Projekt Red is not looking to turn Cyberpunk 2077 into an online MMO, but the rumors now have a lot more credit to them with Kiciński's comments. When discussing their online card game Gwent, Kiciński noted that next year the company will start applying a service model to Gwent, citing it as a core part of the company's strategy going forward.

"Multiplayer is strategically important, playing online is strategically important, because we want to have a commercial leg for service type games, games which generate stable income, period to period, which are built. Of course, every game ends after a number of years, some service type games function even after 10 years, but outside our main source of income, meaning big names, it's building a stable source of income. And in the future, we can imagine a lot of connections between big games and service type games – We have to acknowledge it, it is obvious."
https://techraptor.net/content/cd-projekt-red-cyberpunk-2077-online

Lootboxes seem obvious to me too, unless they categorically say no, like Rare did. But they haven't yet.
 
OP
OP

Deleted member 888

User requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
14,361
CDPR is truly a master at cynical demagoguery designed to fool gamers into thinking they care about anything other than their money.

When you deliver on your games to backup your PR talk, then you start to gain fans. Of course all they care about is money, but how they make the money counts.

Add this http://www.metacritic.com/game/pc/the-witcher-3-wild-hunt to the traditional expansion pack DLC route and it'll make you good money whilst not pissing off gamers.

I'm sure the SP will be fine and I don't mean to hate too much, CDPR will provide value for your initial purchase (in fact I found TW3 to take way too long and would have prefered the main campaign to have been cut by half). But greed is a nebulous term. They can use the 60 hour campaign to lootbox the fuck out of the game and still say but you have your 60 hour campaign! Value!

And then there's also this

https://techraptor.net/content/cd-projekt-red-cyberpunk-2077-online

Lootboxes seem obvious to me too, unless they categorically say no, like Rare did. But they haven't yet.

At this stage when it comes to their $60 products I think they'll know fine well how they built their reputation, and also all these remarks they're making now are on the internet. The internet doesn't forget.