Transistor

The Walnut King
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,558
Washington, D.C.
One of the more common complaints about modern open world games is how they have become exercises in 'icon-chasing', where you spend most of your time pinging between dozens of different question-marks on a map, rushing to sweep them up like a weaponised cleaner. It turns what should be a free-spirited adventure into an exhaustive to-do-list, and can make what should be your relaxation time feel more like work.

The question, of course, is how do games resolve this? One potential solution would be to make open-worlds smaller and easier to complete. But size alone isn't the problem, it's what open-worlds do with these spaces. Pointing players at the 'interesting' bits of your open world implies that everything between those icons, which likely totals most of your game world, isn't interesting. But open world games are supposed to be about these spaces. They exist specifically to be journeyed through.

www.pcgamer.com

It's time for open world games to ditch the question marks

Let's have less emphasis on the destination, and more on what happens on the road.

This popped up in my news feed today and it's an opinion I wholeheartedly agree with. I encourage everyone to read it. We've gotten too used to games "respecting our time" (a phrase I absolutely hate) by streamlining everything into the quickest dopamine rush possible. But where it may "respect our time" it's doing a massive disservice to our mind.

But Transistor, what games can we play that aren't like this?
Well, I'm glad you asked. Here's a few I can think of:

Morrowind
Outer Wilds
The Witness
Any Souls game (Demon's / Dark / Bloodborne / Sekiro)


So what do you say, Era? Let's make more of a focus on the journey rather than the destination.
 

Sabretooth

Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,183
India
But Transistor, what games can we play that aren't like this?
Well, I'm glad you asked. Here's a few I can think of:

Outer Wilds
The Witness
Any Souls game (Demon's / Dark / Bloodborne / Sekiro)


So what do you say, Era? Let's make more of a focus on the journey rather than the destination.
Would you say Morrowind fits in this mould (or un-mould)? I haven't played it in well over a decade, so I can't comment personally.

Good thread and article though!
 

Anustart

9 Million Scovilles
Avenger
Nov 12, 2017
9,176
I don't have time for open world games without the question marks.

Make em optional, we good
 

Bulebule

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,819
I agree. The less question marks the better and makes much more enjoyable to explore the world than trying to view the map while being bothered by an ocean of different markers.
 

GrrImAFridge

ONE THOUSAND DOLLARYDOOS
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,731
Western Australia
When I began playing The Witcher 3, I thought I'd try experimenting with disabling map markers so I wasn't just darting from point to point when exploring the world, but I quickly grew tired of travelling to a location I thought would contain a chest only to find absolutely nothing.

I certainly understand the argument that they create busywork, but for me, they're a time saver.
 

ghostcrew

The Shrouded Ghost
Administrator
Oct 27, 2017
30,562
Valhalla did some good work to undo this.

It introduced one of my favourite things in games - different difficulty options for both combat and for exploration. The exploration settings allow you to set how much information the game gives you in terms of map instruction and compass direction.

Put it on the 'hardest' and you have to literally follow in-game instruction to find places ('near the split in the river' or whatever) and the compass doesn't show you nine thousand glowing activities. It doesn't give you distances '120m to this activity' or anything. It's great.

It definitely give you a better sense of actual exploration than most open world question-mark fests.

More games need these kind of granular options for different play styles.

100280281.jpg
 

Quasi

Banned
Aug 24, 2021
702
Valhalla did some good work to undo this.

It introduced one of my favourite things in games - different difficulty options for both combat and for exploration. The exploration settings allow you to set how much information the game gives you in terms of map instruction and compass direction.

Put it on the 'hardest' and you have to literally follow in-game instruction to find places ('near the split in the river' or whatever) and the compass doesn't show you nine thousand glowing activities. It doesn't give you distances '120m to this activity' or anything. It's great.

It definitely give you a better sense of actual exploration than most open world question-mark fests.
I'm pretty sure the map still showed a lot of glowing dots to point out where the collectibles and world events were though.
 

GamerJM

Member
Nov 8, 2017
15,821
If you're going to have points of interest and quests and stuff I need map markers, otherwise the game is hard to play for me because I just get lost and have no idea what to do. I'd probably just enjoy if these games didn't have a bunch of quests and stuff to do in the first place though, or better yet, weren't even open world.
 

Jonathan Lanza

"I've made a Gigantic mistake"
Member
Feb 8, 2019
6,954
Convenience is the be all end all of high budget games so at most this will probably just be an option.
 
Oct 27, 2017
6,960
I would say that your Sekiro/Souls suggestion is a complete bollocks.

Despite being open-environment, those levels are very narrow where you cannot miss main quests/enemies, and the splitting branches go into the ends where optional quests/enemies/items lay. It is not a real open-world game, where you have square kilometers of in-game world to explore, easy to miss important or even interesting side-quests.

Two other examples are also apples to oranges if we comparing them against the grand open-world games like Skyrim/AC/GTA/MMOs.

The solution is to have a toggle: minimap/UI indicators of quests/POI. It works on the concept level without requiring game modifications, or penalizing either side of players. There are also examples of AC doing it successfully, so it also works in practice.
 

Linus815

Member
Oct 29, 2017
20,195
No thanks.

Why make videogame navigation harder than IRL navigation? I use GPS everywhere I go. 30 years ago I would've used a marked up map.

Bringing up Souls is weird as fuck as they're not even open world game and while they offer exploration, they are designed to railroad you towards the objective.
 

astro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
57,608
World's should be crafted with density of meaningful encounters rather than going for big=better style maps and lots of cut and paste ?s.

At least imo.
 

Deleted member 5491

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,249
Designing a game so that you can get around without just putting a marker on the map, without a constant compas or following a dotted line takes more time to design, but makes open world games much better. And you can still but in these things AS AN OPTION on top of it for those who have problems to deal with it. Because without just follwing what your GPS says and you just working on a list of things you have to do, you have to interact with NPC, look around and and explore and actually interact with the world.

That's why I liked BOTW so much and can't stand the big standard Ubisoft Open World game.
 

ciddative

Member
Apr 5, 2018
4,637
Fucking amen.

Quality, density and life of open world trumped pure size a generation ago, but games (and sadly media) still tout useless metrics as OMG it's 4X BIG AS X AND TAKES 40 YEARS TO WALK ACROSS IN REALTIME.

I think 'wide linear' or hub-based worlds can be far more focussed and engaging while still offering exploration and agency, and some recent high profile and lauded games have suffered for being open-world by default
 
Nov 1, 2017
1,844
I mean this is part of why Dark Souls became so huge. People were already sick of this shit being in every big budget action/RPG 10 years ago, and Souls was deliberately designed to be the anathema to that. No map, no arrow telling you where to go, no question marks and no huge repetitive map filled with generic junk loot, gameplay is actually good! Its more fun to explore when you have to use your own head AND you have a reason to explore (you could potentially find a very valuable piece of gear that completely changes how you play).
 

SammyJ9

Member
Dec 22, 2019
3,956
Absolutely. BOTW already (mostly) did this and it's the best open world game of all time for a reason. I really thought we'd see more games following its example of minimizing map dots and question marks.
 

platocplx

2020 Member Elect
Member
Oct 30, 2017
36,115
yeah open worlds should be more denser and way less busy work and have things that are way more interconnected than just collect-a-thons. Fuck if people complain how long the game is as long as its a meaningful amount of time.
 
OP
OP
Transistor

Transistor

The Walnut King
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,558
Washington, D.C.
Am I remember wrong or it did not have any icons at all and you had to use journal to navigate?
Absolutely correct. I had a big post about it a long time ago:

Gonna paste a thread of mine from the old forum to show why I love Morrowind so much:

After playing FFXV and realizing that Final Fantasy had added in two of the things I hate most (minimaps and quest markers), I was thinking back to how amazingly Morrowind handled navigation.

See, for you youngins out there, Morrowind was the third Elder Scrolls game (the granddaddy to Skyrim). It was from a time before you needed to be handheld and shown exactly where to go. You have to actually listen and read and search to find your destination.

First, let's address one of the biggest issues with modern Elder Scrolls (and Fallout, by proxy) games. Fast travel. Need to get somewhere? Fast travel. Done with a quest? Just fast travel back. A simple click and you're where you want to go. Now, don't get me wrong, this existed in Morrowind, but that's because the fast travel routes actually existed in the world


morrowind-travel-map.jpg

Click to expand...
See all those lines? Fast travel routes. You had Silt Striders (giant bugs that you rode around in), boats, and mages guild teleportations. Sometimes it meant taking a boat, then a strider to get to your destination. It actually felt like travelling. You could also use the spells of Divine Intervention (which teleported you to the nearest Imperial outpost) or Almsivi Intervention (which teleported you to the nearest temple). The only way to get modern "fast travel" was to get the spells of mark and recall, but even then you could only mark a single spot and return to it on demand.

It made the world feel cohesive and you actually had to learn how to navigate it. In a way, Dark Souls reminded me of it, because I'd have to learn the world, where the other souls games give you bonfire fast travel right from the start.

Now for minimaps. Yes, Morrowind does have one, but it's the most basic minimap you can have. All it does it give you a tiny overhead view (very, VERY tiny), and show you if there's a door. Other than that it has no compass, no destination marker, no "your quest is inside this circle", nothing else. Let's compare Morrowind's minimap to FFXV:

Morrowind
nhXu9DL.png



FFXV
6ThpNm8.png



And while Skyim doesn't have an on-screen minimap, it does have a POI compass that shows you everything near and exactly where to go

qWAnDIu.png



The big issue I have with minimaps and compasses that point you in the exact direction of where to go is it seems you're supposed to pay more attention to it than the actual main gameplay screen.

But, I digress, let's talk about the big one. Navigation. Let's start with how Morrowind starts. You're dumped off a boat and told to go meet a guy in Balmora to the north.

That's it.

4fV9Mxu.png



How do you get there? Well, you know it's north, so look at your compass and head that way. Ask questions to people in town. Read street signs. Learn roads. Some quests are actually given to you with references to landmarks so you actually have to search around the beautifully crafted world to find where you need to go. Because of that, it's a great sense of accomplishment. But with newer games, it's basically "Hey, go here. Just follow the point on your map." With that method, it's completely brainless and devoid of any sense of satisfaction that the journey should give you.

"But Transistor, why don't you just mod that stuff out or turn off the HUD"

Because the world is built with these things in mind now. Without any recognizable landmarks or carefully crafted worlds, you would have no idea how to reach your destinations without a POI compass.

Anyways, just venting. Fuck POI compasses, fuck minimaps, fuck quest markers. Give me back my exploration
 

Jawmuncher

Crisis Dino
Moderator
Oct 25, 2017
39,134
Ibis Island
I pretty much hold the same opinion for fast travel restricted games as well. Love Mafia 3 but not being able to fast travel was a odd decision as there isn't much that happens while driving.

If people want to drive in your game they will, if they don't want to let them get a break. They're still playing afterall.
 

mnk

Member
Nov 11, 2017
6,497
Remove the question marks and I'm gonna explore about 90% less of the map. Which is maybe fine, because 90% of the map probably all looks the same. The problem with something like Witcher 3 wasn't that there were question marks, it's that too many of them are functionally just generic copy/pastes of each other. That said, I still want the question marks, because I like the sense of structure and knowing I'm going somewhere with a purpose.
 

Chettlar

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,604
Maybe not Demon's, but the others kind of are when you think about it (to a lesser degree). There are often many directions you can go, willingly skipping parts of the game, if you're skilled enough.

They're just not like most open world games. They're more like 3D metroidvanias in terms of world structure. For the most part every area is a pretty set designed level.
 

Fanuilos

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
4,267
It's going to be interesting to see how Elden Ring handles a more open world philosophy. I've been chasing that itch of discovering a map since BotW and nothing has quite scratched it yet. Part of the fun in BotW for me was seeing things at various distances that I wanted to reach. Shrines, landmarks, even the korok seeds made for a good mix of exploration and discovery. Feels like From will also find ways to engage players in a similar fashion.
 

cableboy

Member
Jul 15, 2019
202
Not eveyone has loads of free time.
Not every game needs to cater to every single person.

Anyways, I'm a big fan of mods that remove markers and make games more immersive, disable fast travel, etc. Greatly enhances stuff like New Vegas/FO3. The Stalker series also comes to mind for having recognizble monuments and other details in the map that don't force you to rely on the map/compass. But the map has to be well designed in the first place for you to be able to navigate in such a manner.
 

Pulp

Member
Nov 4, 2017
3,023
I wholeheartedly agree. As someone who gets really stressed out about finishing question marks it would be so nice to not have to worry about those. Now, obviously a game designed around having these marks available at all times might suffer from this. So, as others in the thread already said; design the game with having no markers in mind. I really liked how BOTW had a map that encouraged exploring without all the icons. It wasn't perfect, but very much in the right direction!
 
OP
OP
Transistor

Transistor

The Walnut King
Administrator
Oct 25, 2017
37,558
Washington, D.C.
Not eveyone has loads of free time.
And that's fine, but the design philosophy around most open world games is built around them, meaning exploration takes a back seat to it. Ideally, they'd design the worlds without them, and then add them on top, rather than the other way around.

Skyrim is a good example. You can mod out the POI compass and waypoint makers, but the game is literally built around them. You're not given any directions on where to go. Sure there are mods that help that, but if they were to design the game around the exploration, that makes it easier to just slap the waypoint markers on top.
 

mpak

Alt Account
Banned
Jul 5, 2021
762
The Stalker series also comes to mind for having recognizble monuments and other details in the map that don't force you to rely on the map/compass.
In Stalker, areas were relatively small - in SoC for example there were very small and some locations were straight up linear. They were no bigger than some multiplayer maps in some other games.