If it was up to them the Earth would look like Mordor.
Pelosi unveils moderate alternative to Green New Deal
- Thread starter Tracygill
- Start date
If it was up to them the Earth would look like Mordor.
Apologies ahead of time, this is not going to be a 100% sober rant.
It's going to be a rough next couple decades. In every report you typically hear "by 2050 so and so" and it seems kinda far away right? Lots of work and science left to change our predicament! Well unfortunately, we're preheating to the disaster that awaits us in 30 years, and we're going to feel every degree on the way. And as you said, conflict is inevitable - it's already happening and spreading and growing. And that is the opposite you need if you want to tackle the climate crisis (or any crisis).
Green New Deal is itself already a compromise. We're going in the wrong direction (and I mean literally too as we speak we're spewing out more garbage than ever); and we're forced to continue enduring this pathetic political game we've sadly allowed to actually become a game ,while the world turns to hell.
So blah blah Pelosi mastertrick in showing how the GOP is still the GOP. Congrats. But we never should have been in the position we're in now if a lot of the same old oligarchs making this a game today were actually doing their job 30+ years ago when they were expressly told how much danger we were in. Pelosi very much being in that group. But money. But tradition. But Jesus and his fucking death cult. But because I don't want to. Year after year after year. And if you did care, you got proto-meme'd (Carter, Gore).
So instead of being page 1 of every policy decision, it was...just there for a couple decades, if even that. Ya'll know how much poison we loaded up into the oceans and into the air and into our bodies over that period of willful ignorance? Know how many of our own civilians died due to lack of healthcare? How many funds were immediately granted to exploding brown children half a world away for the benefit of an insane genocidal state in Saudi Arabia and not used for....well....literally anything else that might benefit Americans that the GND brings attention to?
None of our children will mourn us. I hope they eventually save the world -- or can at least preserve those who can't fight the oncoming disaster like we humans -- but we don't deserve an ounce of sympathy or "they meant well and it was just the times". Fuck that. Now that's a large underlying reason we're here today.
But whatever, continue playing your "long game". I've already been watching it for over 30 years.
It won't, but anyone who wants climate change action can't afford not to get this done through negotiation. This is about politics, and humanity, and we're obsessed with bureaucracy.
That it can't get this far as a non-binding resolution shows how much of a mountain it has to climb for actual action through congress. Scaling it back means it gets safer to pass, because congress.
Dude it's fucking terrifying how ill prepared these people are to honestly look at this. Like it's all yucks and "lol oh you silly lefties and your dreams of revolution" like do you all not understand that mass societal upheaval happens when the social fabric from the institutions built upon liberalism break down? And what the hell do you think is going to break this down faster than TENS OF MILLIONS OF PEOPLE migrating all at once to avoid calamitous societal downfall in their homelands and total ecological devastation? Societal collapse IS INEVITABLE IF WE DO NOT MAKE BROAD, MASSIVE CHANGES, LITERALLY RIGHT NOW. It's staggering, we are facing the consequences of ecological catastrophe in real time, right now, and people still think "oh well that's just how the government works and I am a realist who understands that" then we need to be out in the streets with fucking pitchforks, tonight. Because it is "we do this or we die".
Apologies ahead of time, this is not going to be a 100% sober rant.
It's going to be a rough next couple decades. In every report you typically hear "by 2050 so and so" and it seems kinda far away right? Lots of work and science left to change our predicament! Well unfortunately, we're preheating to the disaster that awaits us in 30 years, and we're going to feel every degree on the way. And as you said, conflict is inevitable - it's already happening and spreading and growing. And that is the opposite you need if you want to tackle the climate crisis (or any crisis).
Green New Deal is itself already a compromise. We're going in the wrong direction (and I mean literally too as we speak we're spewing out more garbage than ever); and we're forced to continue enduring this pathetic political game we've sadly allowed to actually become a game ,while the world turns to hell.
So blah blah Pelosi mastertrick in showing how the GOP is still the GOP. Congrats. But we never should have been in the position we're in now if a lot of the same old oligarchs making this a game today were actually doing their job 30+ years ago when they were expressly told how much danger we were in. Pelosi very much being in that group. But money. But tradition. But Jesus and his fucking death cult. But because I don't want to. Year after year after year. And if you did care, you got proto-meme'd (Carter, Gore).
So instead of being page 1 of every policy decision, it was...just there for a couple decades, if even that. Ya'll know how much poison we loaded up into the oceans and into the air and into our bodies over that period of willful ignorance? Know how many of our own civilians died due to lack of healthcare? How many funds were immediately granted to exploding brown children half a world away for the benefit of an insane genocidal state in Saudi Arabia and not used for....well....literally anything else that might benefit Americans that the GND brings attention to?
None of our children will mourn us. I hope they eventually save the world -- or can at least preserve those who can't fight the oncoming disaster like we humans -- but we don't deserve an ounce of sympathy or "they meant well and it was just the times". Fuck that. Now that's a large underlying reason we're here today.
But whatever, continue playing your "long game". I've already been watching it for over 30 years.
It doesn't matter if the GOP is evil if your side isn't willing to commit to drastic actions. It makes me so god damn fucking depressed reading all this shit about how "well this just isn't how things are done" when people are dying every day from starvation, from diseases that are easily treatable, from man made famine and drought, from the brutal imperialist wars that the "land of the free" fights to maintain it's hegemony. My son has to grow up in this world and what the hell kind of world am I leaving for him?
What the fuck is it going to take to get people to realize that the system is broken? How many people are going to have to die before we get more than some shrugging and "well jeez if you guys had been nicer maybe we could have done something about this". It just blows me away. I commit, I go out and am active in my activism and picket and call my representatives and do everything "within the system" to make a difference with a ton of other people doing the same and yet why the hell does nothing change then? Why are we still trapped in this causal loop of "we can't do this because that's not how we do it"?
We're going to die to maintain an oligarchy who are going to build fucking bio-domes staffed with armed slaves and outlive us all. Because we've decided that the lives of half the planet are a luxury item we can just keep kicking down the road.
It makes me more and more cynical every god damn day seeing the hand wringing about all of this when if everybody of the non-ruling class stood up for five minutes, FIVE MINUTES we could change this. But no, better we all dream and keep pretending. And when those 17 million people are at our gates, we will see the justification to why we should abandon them, or far worse.
Basically this. This clamoring for "we just need to play in the political game and wait" is maddening. There's no time to wait or score political points but centrists and the right don't care. There was no time years ago.
Apologies ahead of time, this is not going to be a 100% sober rant.
It's going to be a rough next couple decades. In every report you typically hear "by 2050 so and so" and it seems kinda far away right? Lots of work and science left to change our predicament! Well unfortunately, we're preheating to the disaster that awaits us in 30 years, and we're going to feel every degree on the way. And as you said, conflict is inevitable - it's already happening and spreading and growing. And that is the opposite you need if you want to tackle the climate crisis (or any crisis).
Green New Deal is itself already a compromise. We're going in the wrong direction (and I mean literally too as we speak we're spewing out more garbage than ever); and we're forced to continue enduring this pathetic political game we've sadly allowed to actually become a game ,while the world turns to hell.
So blah blah Pelosi mastertrick in showing how the GOP is still the GOP. Congrats. But we never should have been in the position we're in now if a lot of the same old oligarchs making this a game today were actually doing their job 30+ years ago when they were expressly told how much danger we were in. Pelosi very much being in that group. But money. But tradition. But Jesus and his fucking death cult. But because I don't want to. Year after year after year. And if you did care, you got proto-meme'd (Carter, Gore).
So instead of being page 1 of every policy decision, it was...just there for a couple decades, if even that. Ya'll know how much poison we loaded up into the oceans and into the air and into our bodies over that period of willful ignorance? Know how many of our own civilians died due to lack of healthcare? How many funds were immediately granted to exploding brown children half a world away for the benefit of an insane genocidal state in Saudi Arabia and not used for....well....literally anything else that might benefit Americans that the GND brings attention to?
None of our children will mourn us. I hope they eventually save the world -- or can at least preserve those who can't fight the oncoming disaster like we humans -- but we don't deserve an ounce of sympathy or "they meant well and it was just the times". Fuck that. Now that's a large underlying reason we're here today.
But whatever, continue playing your "long game". I've already been watching it for over 30 years.
Then the three of you should answer the question I posed a page ago, because right now you're serving as shining examples:
Because the fact of the matter remains:
--Tsk tsking Democrats about the mistakes of the past won't get anything done today.
--Claiming Democrats are sell-outs for trying moderate options when we don't have the power to get anything passed in a Republican controlled Senate and White House won't get anything done today.
So, if I'm Nancy Pelosi, I'm not giving a shit about the rants, and I'm certainly not caring about the history lessons over what happened 30 years ago because I was there. I'm thinking what can I get done? What can I actually accomplish with the levers of power available to me? What can I do to stop Republicans, embarrass Republicans, and/or inch us closer to the conversations we need to be having? I guarantee you that that's how Nancy is thinking, because as Majority Leader she has to produce results or a strategy to her caucus.
So in the absence of getting anything done (because the Green New Deal is not going anywhere), again the question: now what?
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Yes, we are aware. Many of us want the same action you do, in fact. The mistake is to assign all this due to facts and emotional appeal, when that's not enough to make it happen. It never was. You're ignoring the political side in this situation, the barrier which decides whether humanity lives or dies.
Ignoring the political reality guarantees nothing happens, that's part and parcel of how to fix it. There is no option outside the government, you're not getting a revolution any time soon so work with what you have. If you don't think the government is going to fix this, why bother being concerned about the Dems are doing? They're irrelevant to the concerns you're choosing, make that alternative happen.
It's not guaranteed getting into the streets is going to do much of anything, to accomplish that would require immense and sustained effort - as in LA Riots - to get the attention, and that's just the attention part. And that's the simple part in this equation, not the governing and media sides.
We've had this all through history, and it's not exclusive to America. The world is a scary, horrible place. :(
Wrong questions. You need to figure out how to convince the system to work for you, it's that or full on revolution and the latter's never been a realistic goal of the American Left. That's what's been missing from the equation you're trying to find an answer to, as well as better organisation getting the word out and why people should care. They definitely should care, but it hasn't penetrated their priorities like it should. On that angle it hasn't been fought hard enough IMO.
Because there's more to politics than activism, and you're one person. Activism is immensely important to pressure politicians, but it was never going to get those results alone. That's why having people in the system, like the Justice Dems, are important - they're deep in the system so they help push your agenda from the inside. The system itself remains in tact, in never was replaced with whatever the Left revolution wanted - that's why we're stuck with the status quo. So we have to work with the status quo, we have no choice but to.
It's humanity, it's just who we are. That said, it's not like the climate change side has had the organisation or leadership to sway them, they're a blip on the radar to the opposite here, so they lost.
Need more than five minutes to change this, I'm afraid.
Then why do you care what AOC or Pelosi are doing? What's this grand alternative you have that will save us?
Pretty weak stuff. If they don't have a prayer of passing the legislation in the first place they might as well espouse some real values here and argue the science and urgency of the situation.
You also have the example of france, which had an absolute uprising against Macron because his climate actions were made to minimize damage to big business, at the expense of workers.
It's why we're at a crossroads where "capitalist democracy" are becoming more and more incompatible with each other.
Since there's a 0% chance this gets signed into law this term, it has to be looked at in the form of strategy, and it's bad strategy to give ground on selling the importance of one of your key platform goals, just to score points on showing who's more reasonable and willing to compromise.
How about unveiling a moderate alternative to capitalism on the house floor?
I thought the ACA did that already.... nay, the entire Obama presidency.
This is just posturing for 2020. The goal isn't to pass a progressive plan but to get Republicans to vote against a modest one. That way they can say how Republicans have no answer for climate change during campaigns.
AOC made the GND a hard pill to swallow on her own. Come back with the all or nothing approach after you have the power to back that mindset. Until then politics will have to be political.
Or just capitulate at the outset and still don't get anything passed, like Pelosi is doing.
Wasn't Green New Deal always intended to be the starting point for negoitiations?
There is a lot of stuff in there that was pie in the sky on purpose to send a message I thought.
I don't think anyone thought it was meant to be a 100% all in proposal
It needs to be reigned in badly. Antitrust, regulations, and public investment needs to be back on the table. And Citizens United overturned
There is a lot of stuff in there that was pie in the sky on purpose to send a message I thought.
I don't think anyone thought it was meant to be a 100% all in proposal
It needs to be reigned in badly. Antitrust, regulations, and public investment needs to be back on the table. And Citizens United overturned
There really only is one class of people who don't worry about climate change: those rich enough to avoid it's consequences.
We're probably going to start shooting them, and we're going to have "Fortress Europe" in the next couple of decades.
The Dutch handed the far-right FvD nearly 20% of the vote because the centre-right tried to do the bare minimum for climate change. The olds are walking us into this death trap and don't give a shit. Our obsession with consistent growth will kill us all.
Dunno, the Republican base of poor whites doesn't seem to care much either.
Delivering the house is not doing anything? Yeah you guys aren't interested in actually working to achieve change.
That's because they believe they'll be rich one day. Temporarily embarrassed millionaires and all that.
This isn't true. The only ones who don't have to worry are those who will die too soon to see the worst of it. The worst consequences of climate change will damn near cause the extinction of our species if left unchecked, money won't save you.
Religious extremists are also just praying for the end times.
Also there's a good chance the Senate stays R with a D presidency in 2020 so expect nothing to be done for, like, decades. At least the next President will reprioritise climate science at NASA and NOAA so we can at least measure our demise accurately.
Lol "delivering the house"? Do you understand what the word "passed" means or do you just flail about for anything to defend Yas Queen? The mirror image of Trumpkins - not a care for policy outcomes, just support Dear Leader no matter what. Those who understand strategy are in awe of Pelosi the master right now.
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The only reason Pelosi is doing this is because Republicans want to use the Green New Deal as a talking point during next years elections, claiming it is radical and un-American(you can see this language being used by McConnell already). Pelosi is attempting to shift that conversation to where Democrats can both say they want to do a lot, and also do something moderate. This is politics.
It also puts the Republicans' feet to the fire in that it is getting harder and harder for them to deny climate science. We are currently at the point where McConnell admits to human contribution to climate change, but just disagrees with the solutions Dems are putting forth. This is actually progress, slow, but it is something at least.
Why play politics tho? why doesn't she just kill all of the republicans?
Remember when adopting a conservative health care plan that Romney had favored totally defanged Republican attacks that Democrats were trying to have the government take over health care, and the Democrats held the house in 2010, 2012, and 2014? Pelosi knows better than anyone that the best electoral strategy is to immediately move right.
I'm sure that will be recieved well come November 2020.
Is the goal here to give the GOP control of both chambers and the WH again, I forget.
Recommitting to the Paris Accords is great, but why not propose something that Republicans might go for? Throw a bunch of federal money at some of the poorer red states/districts for infrastructure projects coupled with nuclear power plants. Bribe the GOP into acting on climate change.
Republicans won't go for a climate bill drafted by democrats. Republicans won't hand dems victories on any issues because they know that having power is how you push your agenda.
Now, this I like.
Unless you have any ideas of doing this without politics this is what we're stuck with.
You're omitting how immensely difficult that was, it's not like the Dems have majority in congress to do anything they wanted. That's never the political reality, or do you not know how congress works? That barely passed, a more extreme leftist bill is a pipe dream.
When the Dems don't have the votes to ignore it, yeah, because the GOP are a force in congress - as well as the Blue Dogs, and politicians like Liebermann. Because Dems want to help people, which ACA did. Unless you'd prefer not doing anything about healthcare? You're under the mistaken impression there's a large Leftist third party in congress which will force the Dems to go left to pass bills.
It wouldn't be a climate bill, it would be an infrastructure bill. And it would likely have bipartisan backing if enough palms are greased. The one thing Republicans care about the most is money, so give it to them.
I'm talking about how moving right initially doesn't actually help politically, despite the insistence of the political svengalis who brought us the Iraq War that it does. Please try to follow the conversation. A bill that actually does something about climate change is a pipe dream as long as Pelosi's foremost concern is what Chuck Todd will say.
I've already explained to you that this bill is just as dead in the current Congress as the GND is. But now, assuming the Dems are even capable of winning the Senate and WH in 2020, the starting point is this weak shit instead of, you know, something that might actually help the situation.
Your example was how moving right got a bill passed about healthcare. Had they gone further left they wouldn't have passed anything. Pelosi voted against the Iraq War, and I was against it, too. This framing about how only the Left was against the Iraq war is inaccurate, and ignores how strong the wind in Bush's sails were at the time following 9/11. That's a pipe dream regardless of what Pelosi thinks about it.
When the Dems gain more seats in the future her bill is more likely to pass over AOC's. I don't like it any more than you do, but they need votes to pass it, and AOC's is a lot harder to get those votes. That's what helps, not pipe dreams.
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Ripping Pelosi over not doing anything about climate change seems odd considering she passed this ten years ago (and likely at a great cost to several vulnerable House members) and the useless fucking Senate didn't take it up
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Clean_Energy_and_Security_Act
It's pretty clear that simply re-joining the Paris Accord isn't meant to "replace" the GND but by all means keep screaming at the wrong people
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Clean_Energy_and_Security_Act
It's pretty clear that simply re-joining the Paris Accord isn't meant to "replace" the GND but by all means keep screaming at the wrong people
The electorate has a short memory for politics. That's something politicians exploit time and time again. The voters need to be reminded over and over and over again on pretty much anything. So the Democrats actually have to hammer home that Republicans don't negotiate in good faith, especially when Republicans keep talking about how good the old days were, and low taxes, and all their other bullshit. So yea it is necessary to call the GOP bluff often and remind the people of repub shittiness. With the freshman group they currently have, who will inherent the party soon enough, they will push much further to the left. But they still have to learn some of the old ways from the senior members. Hopefully dropping a bunch of the old ineffective strategies as they develop their own.
My point was moving right did jack and shit to help the political case.
And then voted to fund it in exactly the same type of difference-splitting that does no good politically and gets you a worse substantive outcome.
It's an example to show how centrist Dems are bad at politics and have to rely on GOP self-owns for their victories.
"Doing something good Is hard, so don't even try."
It would be one thing if this bill was the final result of a battle with the GOP. AS a starting point, it's asinine.
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This is making perfect the enemy of good.
It's also bad framing. This isn't about doing something good being hard; this is about doing something at all being better than nothing, which is what the alternative was.
Democracy is the art of the possible. A compromise is a better place to build upon than nothing.
yes if we moderate our positions enough surely the republicans will be nice to us
The sad thing is, the Green New Deal wasn't really that progressive. It really didn't even begin to go far enough to truly combat climate change, but it's AOC so with no one caring about specifics, it's radical left.