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The in-game explanation is that Maya has no fashion sense and that Ulala picks out her clothes. Doesn't defend it, but still.
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Persona 5 director to character designer: "all females should be on the cute side"
- Thread starter cj_iwakura
- Start date
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There are some things that I just need to address.
"Cuteness" is a subset of attractiveness. It is not the entire spectrum of possibility for "attractive" characters. It's really annoying to see the two be misconstrued like this. You can make characters that are still within the realm of "attractive" and also not make them overtly endearing or childlike or what-have-you. The two things are not tightly intertwined like some folks seem to be implying in this thread. I'm not even advocating necessarily for ugly characters (though I definitely think they should be allowed to exist, and not only as Disney villains), just characters that deviate from the norm in interesting ways. And that's the important bit - it's more interesting to have more variety. Which leads me to my second point:
The box of "possibilities" is far larger for male characters than for female characters in general. Pretty simple visualization exercise here: imagine two boxes, one of which encompasses the entire possibility space for male characters, and the other that encompasses the possibility space for female characters. The former is currently far larger than the latter, to the point where being able to stuff the latter into the former is a foregone conclusion. This is sexism manifesting itself in our media. I want to see that space enlarged, to see female characters allowed to serve a lot of the same roles that male characters are allowed to serve. Which brings me to this:
It's not about how they look. It's about what they are allowed to be. Having this sort of design mandate is asymptomatic of their general attitude to female character design. It tells us that they're already stuffing their female characters into a more limited set of boxes than their male characters. It means we're generally stuck with fewer roles and not allowed to do the exact same things that male characters are allowed to do. I don't actually care as much about the fact that everyone looks vaguely "good" as much as I care about the fact that the way in which this manifests ultimately results in less diversity for female characters. Female characters have to be allowed to be unlikable, to take up traditionally masculine roles, to be both feminine and also unfeminine in ways that would not necessarily endear them to the audience. Anything less is sexism, conscious or otherwise.
And yes, I am well aware of the general state of Japan's overall fictional media creation (look at my avatar, people!), and yes, I am not expecting change to happen any time soon. That doesn't mean I'm not going to criticize them for what they've been doing. It's a coping mechanism, see? I have to talk about this stuff because it's my way of dealing with the reality we find ourselves in. And it also helps to remind me why I need to create my own fictional works - to plug in what I see as massive holes in our current media landscape. But of course, that shouldn't be as necessary as it is. Things can improve even with the current set of individuals comprising the gaming industry. They just need to think harder about the things they're making, and maybe get some pointers in the right direction. Whether they'll ever get that far, I guess we'll see over the coming decades.
"Cuteness" is a subset of attractiveness. It is not the entire spectrum of possibility for "attractive" characters. It's really annoying to see the two be misconstrued like this. You can make characters that are still within the realm of "attractive" and also not make them overtly endearing or childlike or what-have-you. The two things are not tightly intertwined like some folks seem to be implying in this thread. I'm not even advocating necessarily for ugly characters (though I definitely think they should be allowed to exist, and not only as Disney villains), just characters that deviate from the norm in interesting ways. And that's the important bit - it's more interesting to have more variety. Which leads me to my second point:
The box of "possibilities" is far larger for male characters than for female characters in general. Pretty simple visualization exercise here: imagine two boxes, one of which encompasses the entire possibility space for male characters, and the other that encompasses the possibility space for female characters. The former is currently far larger than the latter, to the point where being able to stuff the latter into the former is a foregone conclusion. This is sexism manifesting itself in our media. I want to see that space enlarged, to see female characters allowed to serve a lot of the same roles that male characters are allowed to serve. Which brings me to this:
It's not about how they look. It's about what they are allowed to be. Having this sort of design mandate is asymptomatic of their general attitude to female character design. It tells us that they're already stuffing their female characters into a more limited set of boxes than their male characters. It means we're generally stuck with fewer roles and not allowed to do the exact same things that male characters are allowed to do. I don't actually care as much about the fact that everyone looks vaguely "good" as much as I care about the fact that the way in which this manifests ultimately results in less diversity for female characters. Female characters have to be allowed to be unlikable, to take up traditionally masculine roles, to be both feminine and also unfeminine in ways that would not necessarily endear them to the audience. Anything less is sexism, conscious or otherwise.
And yes, I am well aware of the general state of Japan's overall fictional media creation (look at my avatar, people!), and yes, I am not expecting change to happen any time soon. That doesn't mean I'm not going to criticize them for what they've been doing. It's a coping mechanism, see? I have to talk about this stuff because it's my way of dealing with the reality we find ourselves in. And it also helps to remind me why I need to create my own fictional works - to plug in what I see as massive holes in our current media landscape. But of course, that shouldn't be as necessary as it is. Things can improve even with the current set of individuals comprising the gaming industry. They just need to think harder about the things they're making, and maybe get some pointers in the right direction. Whether they'll ever get that far, I guess we'll see over the coming decades.
They could probably have a future Persona main supporting character who's big arc is about being 'less cute' and coming to terms with it in a world that demands it; the games love throwing in that one 10/10 character (Mitsuru, Rise, Ann), so it'd be a fun foil. I'm being serious, for a game that deals with personal issues, it could be an interesting one to take on. A few manga have taken similar issues pretty effectively.
Definitely Japanese designs, for how creative they are in some ways, are losing creativity in others ways; and I agree, constantly reinventing cute will lose steam pretty quick.
Definitely Japanese designs, for how creative they are in some ways, are losing creativity in others ways; and I agree, constantly reinventing cute will lose steam pretty quick.
All you have to do to understand the male mind is look at the avatars of the people posting in this very thread - if you can't see that more than a few of the avatars are cute, petite females of exaggerated physical beauty, then you're blind.
That's a bit reductive. Actually waifuing people is like .00003% of the game. Though the social aspect definitely did help in putting the series on the map, but there's plenty more characters to hang out with than just waifus.
And anecdotally, I have enough friends that flat out hate the social aspect yet love it for the stylish battle system and main narrative.
It is odd to me how my 2 favorite "social issues" series (Persona and Danganronpa) haven't really had a plotline about an ugly character coming to terms with that. Especially odd since it's extremely common in other Japanese media.
User has been warned: complains about different opinions + "SJW whining"
I was going to name people in this thread by name, but then decided against it.
Just take a second look at the thread though. You can see a fairly large number of people beating the politically correct SJW drum, saying how bad it is that this is the sort of culture we live in... and right there, as their avatar, is a cute, petite, gorgeous little lady.
Seriously? How silly is that.
Sure, you can find him attractive I guess.
Sojiro is also dresses up stylish. Also his VA (Japanese) makes him sound sexy as hell. So for a character of his age, I think he is in sexy/handsome category.
But he's def not designed in the same way, say, male characters are for otome games. Which would basically be the same way the females are designed here.
Basically Zolo is on point:
I don't even understand what you're talking about. Liking cute characters is not an issue.
Heres a crazy concept; its possible to like cute girls and want diversity in the representation of woman
it almost like those two things aren't mutually exclusive!
I mean... you can be critical of stuff and still love it. Street Fighter is my favorite series and I can listen to someones argument on why it's problematic and still enjoy it. Like it's not a black and white issue.
Pretending to be shocked at the moment.
Hashino must be one of the directors I feel the most conflicted about. The guy is clearly a genius but can also allow/encourage some very questionable shit in his games post DDS. It's part of the reason why I'm excited to see how a Persona game by the new team turns out.
Hashino must be one of the directors I feel the most conflicted about. The guy is clearly a genius but can also allow/encourage some very questionable shit in his games post DDS. It's part of the reason why I'm excited to see how a Persona game by the new team turns out.
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P3 also has some disgusting shit in it too. Need I remind you of the terribly transphobic beach scene?
Yes, you get to touch Aigis' robo G spot in her rank 10 as well despite her being mentally like 10 years old. Not like the submissive robo waifu archetype wasn't bad enough already.
I meant including P3, my bad.
Hold on. Aigis did come across as accentric but do we actually know her mental age?
Kinsei was not referring to Aigis.
She's referring to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxZ0Md2art0&t=40m30s
edit: damnit. sorry about the typo
She's referring to this.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FxZ0Md2art0&t=40m30s
edit: damnit. sorry about the typo
I know, I was just adding to the list of shitty stuff in the game.
Also it's never stated how old Aigis is, but she clearly acts as an innocent, oblivious child.
This is the same guy that wrote a scene about how a female character was not going to allow herself to be sexually objectified anymore, the climax of her character arc where she gets a Persona and starts to fight back. What does her newly liberated, non-sexually objectified outfit look like?
This is the same guy that wrote a scene about how a female character was not going to allow herself to be sexually objectified anymore, the climax of her character arc where she gets a Persona and starts to fight back. What does her newly liberated, non-sexually objectified outfit look like?
This is just hypocritical of the developers.
"We're going to have a character who wants to stop being sexually objectivified....
but our director wants to make she sure she is sexually objectified while doing it..."
Sigh.
A better version of this portrayal is TWEWY's Shiki
TWEWY did the "sexual objectification" character arc way better and more responsibly than P5, and anybody here who finished TWEWY knows exactly what i'm talking about.
That's gross and represents mental indoctrination. "See? People don't have to force me to be a sex object anymore! I can DO IT MYSELF!". Literal Project MK Ultra-tier stuff.
Completely irresponsible.
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This is the same guy that wrote a scene about how a female character was not going to allow herself to be sexually objectified anymore, the climax of her character arc where she gets a Persona and starts to fight back. What does her newly liberated, non-sexually objectified outfit look like?
Tbf, I think the point was that she now owns her sexuality as opposed to being forced into it. Basically, she rejected being a Quiet and sought to become a Bayonetta. I mean she is a model, so this isn't really THAT out there.
Doesn't excuse some of the stuff immediately post-Palace 1 though with the nude painting thing.
This is the same guy that wrote a scene about how a female character was not going to allow herself to be sexually objectified anymore, the climax of her character arc where she gets a Persona and starts to fight back. What does her newly liberated, non-sexually objectified outfit look like?
To be clear, I don't think it is inherently problematic that a character who is being sexually objectified in-universe can still be sexual. Ann always striked me as someone who liked to show off her beauty and sexuality. I mean, being a model was something she actively yearned for. The issue with Kamoshida is that he exploited these things.
^ Agreed with Blizzard on the post-Kamoshida stuff. Yusuke blackmailing Ann into posing nude is never touched upon and that makes it kind of shitty.
Pretty much. I'm not even the target audience and I feel the same ; ;
Being honest I feel you, even if I am one of those "cursed SJW" you seem to hate. :P
Anime and manga as an art style focuses a lot on making things pretty. It's why hair is impossibly lush, eyes are absolutely huge, and generally the characters are perfect. I wouldn't be surprised if it stems from an art history that also appreciates 'the pretty things'.
I definitely will harp on the Persona series, or a number of media, for a lack of diversity in general though; more acutely is the issue of same face and general inability to think outside the box with character design. It's not a request to have more "obese" characters (but I love how quickly hyperbolic responses flock to that one) or a "dark skin quota" (that's not what it's about); but at least to experiment more with new designs which can actually open up a lot of the possibilities within characters themselves.
The fact Soejima has two major body types: Super thin or cartoonishly fat is just..... odd and boring.
I'm definitely not calling for a stop to the beautiful hand drawn models being made in this game, but more diverse designs can make things a lot more interesting, and I think Overwatch is, in whatever way, succeeding much better than a lot of developers in that front.
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What I find interesting, literally anytime there is a thread like this (or even somewhat in the same context), we have page -- after page -- after page of either outrage, indifference, or people who are fine with whatever the issue is, and little to no solutions being brought forward. It's easy for people to come in here and post "loljapan," "japanese media is gross," japan is problematic," "japan," "japan," "japan." However, almost all decisions like this are marketing decisions. It comes back to what consumers want and what sells, and a pretty damn sizable slice of that pie is in the good old progressive West.
Publishers survive off this stuff selling in the West too (look at all these localization companies and western branches) -- Altus, XSEED, Aksys, NISA, IdeaFactory, and etc; -- even the megapublishers like Koei Tecmo, Bandai Namco, Capcom, SEGA, and Square Enix lives off of selling this stuff in Japan AND in the West.
In the end, this less the fault of content creators and more the fault of what the market wants. Fault lies with consumers. So what is the solution?
Yeah, I know, generally the offered solution is that devs and pubs should just leave money on the table, but that's really no solution at all.
I'll leave the my point at this though. Personally, what find most disturbing in threads like these is peoples unwillingness to clean their own house while trying to clean someone else's.
I am sorry you feel that way about yourself. To me though, I think "ugly" characters in media help normalize the aspects of ourselves that we do not like. So instead of putting characters like Hanako into the game as comic relief, have her be actually authentic.
I always in favor of artists having free range with character design. As far as the women designs, it's unfortunate that they have to adhere to these tired mandates.
Honestly I think the best solution would be to have faith in their artists and just run with it. Forget that they have to be cute, how about realistic? Or in align with the game's vision?
Hopefully this changes going forward. God I hope it does.
Honestly I think the best solution would be to have faith in their artists and just run with it. Forget that they have to be cute, how about realistic? Or in align with the game's vision?
Hopefully this changes going forward. God I hope it does.
You find outrage against capitalist-fueled sexism more disturbing than the sexism itself? I notice you have a "cute girl" avatar, so I can probably figure out which angle you're tackling this from, but please don't try to deflect from the suffering of women and what they stand for.
What.
Make female characters that are still attractive if that's so necessary, but make sure you also make them look like they have agency and write them as compelling characters who have more depth than just being cute/adorable/sexy, you know, like real people.
Persona 2 duology exists, it's not that hard to look for examples. People don't feel the need to offer solutions themselves because it's not a complex problem to solve in the slightest.
Make female characters that are still attractive if that's so necessary, but make sure you also make them look like they have agency and write them as compelling characters who have more depth than just being cute/adorable/sexy, you know, like real people.
Persona 2 duology exists, it's not that hard to look for examples. People don't feel the need to offer solutions themselves because it's not a complex problem to solve in the slightest.
Not even what I said, but nice basket of cherries you got there. I'm not even going to bother with you
That's a reasonable enough interpretation. I suppose I tend to look at it from a slightly different perspective - she's not, after all, a real person. She's a fictional person whose every decision is being made by a game developer. And the intent of the design is pretty clearly to objectify her for the gratification of female-attracted players.
A real person version of Ann deciding that she wants to deal with being sexually objectified by showing that she can still be sexy and not vulnerable is perfectly fine. But Ann as a video game character can't do it, at least not without coming across as pretty skeevy.
If they'd decided to lean all the way in and made it part of her character arc, I think they could have told a decent story along those lines. But I don't think anyone even comments on the discrepancy, and if there's dialogue to suggest that she's reclaiming her sexuality, I don't remember it.
I mean, I'm not even necessarily opposed to titillation in games, even just for the gratuitous purpose of turning some players on. But, at least for me, it was a tremendous level of dissonance to go from "I'm not your puppet anymore!" to wearing a skintight catsuit with a whip. If you're going to try to tell that story, you've drawn attention to the issue of objectification and are held to a higher standard.
I had a much more cynical reading of Ann in that talk about being sexually harassed and...the game or the game's writers just didn't really bother much about it; like a plot hole or a blank space on the way their character progresses or they didn't bother to have that capacity/understanding with the character. Not even about the outfit, but her problem was so lightly grazed that it was more about her friend's thing despite her role in it too. They don't really tell you what she did when she hung out with Kamoshida, they don't really go into her experiences as a mixed-race student (they mention it and how it has caused some issues fitting in), but then her Social Link is about having a petty feud with a bratty model.... Who cares? Bleh, I dunno; for how much talking the game does, some parts felt...under-talked. :P
You've got it entirely backwards. Opening up their games to appeal to more people makes games more profitable. Creators making culturally homogeneous products is more a fault of homogeneous dev team compositions and less a consequence of active marketing towards specific demographics (otaku pandering aside). I mean, shit, even Call of Duty added female player characters to their multiplayer modes! It's just smart business. You want to draw as many people to your products as you possibly can, period. Adding diversity is one of the easiest ways a multi-million dev studio can accomplish this.
There is no proof that pandering more and more to more specific niche markets leads to any kind of growth.
What's troubling about modern Persona is that the presence of a dating element makes it so every single female character will be designed and written to be desirable to an extent, and this is even more blatant in P5 where there's basically no limit to who you have access to. The creepy doctor? The drunk journalist? Your goddamn teacher? Sure, go ahead.
There isn't inherently anything bad about female characters being attractive, but forcibly making all of them "cute" for no very justifiable reason does not feel right. Especially when male characters have a more wide range of character types/look types they can be portrayed as.
As a slight note to the discussion about Ann, my problem wasn't inherently that her outfit was sexualised (even if it did feel like a very... lazy way of doing her character arc), but more so how the camera in gameplay and cut-scenes kept treating her to the player, she felt more like visual prop to oogle at rather than a character in those spots.
As a slight note to the discussion about Ann, my problem wasn't inherently that her outfit was sexualised (even if it did feel like a very... lazy way of doing her character arc), but more so how the camera in gameplay and cut-scenes kept treating her to the player, she felt more like visual prop to oogle at rather than a character in those spots.
This is the same guy that wrote a scene about how a female character was not going to allow herself to be sexually objectified anymore, the climax of her character arc where she gets a Persona and starts to fight back. What does her newly liberated, non-sexually objectified outfit look like?
Girls have the rights to wear what they want but the problem with Anne is that the devs used her for useless fan service when her arc was totaly against sexual asault.
Bayonnetta in other hand the dev totaly support her strong personality and how gaudy, sexy she is. Yet the fan service isn't there to make her a victim of any kind of sexual assault during the game.
So in both example the outfit/character design isn't the problem but how the devs threated the character, imo.
That's a valid way of looking at it, though I disagree.
I view the Persona characters, and most video game characters , as cartoon characters. Though they are realistic to a certain extent, their emotions are exaggerated and they are designed so you get a gist of their character just by looking at them.
With regard to Ann for example she is trying to become a model, and is confident in her looks, but whats to be in control.
I feel her normal outfit, Phantom Thief outfit, and Persona show that off quite well.
To what extent the writing backs up her design I can't say since I haven't finished P5 yet(bout halfway done), but I would not view her as real person, I would consider her realistic cartoon character.
Sure, the growth when it comes to this (like Persona's, and Atlus' general growth being based on it) is an outlier. However, while this pandering may not be bursting with growth, it's highly stable. That's a safety net in an industry that isn't too fond of taking risks any more; and, it's a safety net that exists because consumers are holding the net.
User was warned for this post: Internet detective work with target of defaming another user
You don't need to reply. Your Twitter account speaks more about your personal political views on spending money on cute girls at the expense of not-cute girls than anything you will post in this thread
[link removed]
We're done here
edit: And no, i won't reget combatting sexist ideals, even if it's from an ERA poster. Respecting what women stand for is important, no matter what the backdrop is.
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This is the same guy that wrote a scene about how a female character was not going to allow herself to be sexually objectified anymore, the climax of her character arc where she gets a Persona and starts to fight back. What does her newly liberated, non-sexually objectified outfit look like?
I think it's a good outfit, it's backed up in-universe (and one of few coloured outfits that didn't need black) and works as a nice "fuck you" to Kamoshida who's perverted mind keeps her as a sex slave (so the outfit is suitably ironic and meant for kicking ass as a literal cat burglar design and BDSM undertones). But that's MY reading; the in-game writing doesn't back this up AT ALL and was super weak to give her much dialogue about it. :(
I hardly see how this is a "gotcha" considering you can even check my post history here. I've been pretty open with my views on this very site, lol.
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The whole point of her character arc is dominance and submission. She overcomes her trial and wears a dominatrix outfit. Sex isn't bad, and a puritanical viewpoint is worse than alternatives. Why do people always ignore context in these types of threads.This is the same guy that wrote a scene about how a female character was not going to allow herself to be sexually objectified anymore, the climax of her character arc where she gets a Persona and starts to fight back. What does her newly liberated, non-sexually objectified outfit look like?
Why you doing this man.This ain't got nothing to do with the conversation. It's real petty
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But objectifying females IS an issue.
Females are not 'characters'. I can't believe that a male would select a gorgeous female as his avatar - and then complain about developers not having enough 'plain looking females' in their games because that doesn't sell.
If a male gamer selects, as his avatar, a drop dead gorgeous female - then he really needs to think long and hard before complaining about there being too many drop dead gorgeous females in games.
This is what I was trying to communicate. I'm sorry that you didn't understand.