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jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
29,011
I mean, every statement is a PR statement.

The math checks out though. On PC, MS has no hardware losses to recoup. On console they do. So in essence, on PC they are passing savings onto the publishers who put games on their service.

The fact that hardware costs typically go down over the course of the generation, doesn't change the fact that their hardware model is loss leading. As it relates to this gen, hardware costs probably won't decrease (and may increase), and this reality was anticipated during the R&D process..
Agree with this. Let's use Sony as an example.

With the PS4, there were articles about it finally becoming profitable after buying a PS4 game or something. Whatever it was...it eventually became profitable a few years after launch.

Same with the PS5, in 2021 the disc version became profitable, articles about this.

....I cant remember the last time there was an article about Xbox consoles being profitable after X amount of months or years. So many aticles about Game Pass tho. All I can find are articles from 2021 saying Xbox consoles have never been profitable...

I think there is some truth to what Phil said about this.
 

M.Bluth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,263
Any theories as to why MS isn't tweaking the Xbox Series' designs to be more cost-efficient?
They certainly are. We just don't know how many units they already have in stock and how many chips they've already ordered before they'll have to move to 6nm like Sony did with the last PS5 revision.
 
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meenseen84

Member
Feb 15, 2018
1,943
Minneapolis
I'm not sure if he said that and meant they are still taking that big of a loss or at one point it was that big. Either way, it was his justification for why Xbox still gets a 30% cut and why Apple/Google should not.
 

neoak

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,265
Not sure where the hostility is coming from. Or the price tag I didn't mention.
More powerful hardware isn't coming anytime soon. Cost reductions aren't there.

And you threw a pear to compare with an orange and justify the supposed existence of the bigger orange.

But the tone was too aggressive, you're right on that. My apologies.
 

UraMallas

Member
Nov 1, 2017
18,960
United States
I mean, every statement is a PR statement.

The math checks out though. On PC, MS has no hardware losses to recoup. On console they do. So in essence, on PC they are passing savings onto the publishers who put games on their service.

The fact that hardware costs typically go down over the course of the generation, doesn't change the fact that their console hardware model is loss leading. As it relates to this gen, hardware costs probably won't decrease (and may increase), and this reality was anticipated during the R&D process..
The point I was making is that Phil was not giving a statement on current margins for Xboxes. It could be the case that they are still taking a loss and it's even very likely given inflation. But he is not saying here that the current margins are between $100-$200. He was trying to make the position on 30% console take the strongest position he could in the hypothetical. He was talking about the broad strokes of how the console market works and the statement is being taken out of context in here for console wars.

And it's an important distinction to make in this thread.

Because what Sony fans are trying to do in here is make it sound like Sony has some secret mojo and they are somehow unaffected by the same things Xbox is because "they are just better engineers over there!" That is a very consistent meta conversation going on throughout this thread if we look closely. And it's simply not true. So, yes, it's true that Xbox is most likely still taking a loss almost for sure due to inflation imo. It's also true that Phil's statement has been taken out of context here to be used as a cudgel in the console wars. And, it's also true that Sony has the exact same problems because they haven't broken the laws of physics.

I was just setting the record straight that his statement is not proof of any kind of Sony secret sauce. Because I remember that silly stuff in the tech threads running up to the console launches very well and it was never true.
 
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lupumVigili

Member
Oct 27, 2020
198
I'd imagine the Sony subsidy would be similar to MS since the cost of production of the 2 consoles is similar
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,402
The point I was making is that Phil was not giving a statement on current margins for Xboxes. It could be the case that they are still taking a loss and it's even very likely given inflation. But he is not saying here that the current margins are between $100-$200. He was trying to make the position on 30% console take the strongest position he could in the hypothetical. He was talking about the broad strokes of how the console market works and the statement is being taken out of context in here for console wars.

And it's an important distinction to make in this thread.

Because what Sony fans are trying to do in here is make it sound like Sony has some secret mojo and they are somehow unaffected by the same things Xbox is because "they are just better engineers over there!" That is a very consistent meta conversation going on throughout this thread if we look closely. And it's simply not true. So, yes, it's true that Xbox is most likely still taking a loss almost for sure due to inflation imo. It's also true that Phil's statement has been taken out of context here to be used as a cudgel in the console wars. And, it's also true that Sony has the exact same problems because they haven't broken the laws of physics.

I was just setting the record straight that his statement is not proof of any kind of Sony secret sauce. Because I remember that silly stuff in the tech threads running up to the console launches very well and it was never true.

Ahhh I gotcha.. I guess I missed the parts where this statement was being used as a cudgel. Do people believe that Sony isn't subject to the exact same supply market?
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
13,972
You got that backwards, the PS5 SoC is more customized, it isn't pure RDNA2 like the Series consoles.


Guess the poster never explained
Yeah everything we have seen points to the opposite, but costs are based on die size anyway.

There won't be. No one is going to release a $999 console.
I do not think we can make a not possible call on this right now.

I'd imagine the Sony subsidy would be similar to MS since the cost of production of the 2 consoles is similar
The PS5 Disc Edition was profitable in 8/2021.
 

kmfdmpig

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
19,381
I feel like the obvious one is $70 games, then it's closing the gold conversion "loophole" for Game Pass before ever raising Game Pass' price. However, it seems like a lot of people think they're going to raise the prices on everything.
That would make the most sense to me. GamePass being cheap will help it grow more quickly and provides a compelling selling point for Xbox as well. If it goes up in price the growth will slow and the potential value proposition advantage of Xbox might decline a bit.
 

CloseTalker

Member
Oct 25, 2017
30,713
Keeping hardware the same price, raising first party games to $70, and a price bump for Game Pass seems like the smartest move here.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
29,011
The point I was making is that Phil was not giving a statement on current margins for Xboxes. It could be the case that they are still taking a loss and it's even very likely given inflation. But he is not saying here that the current margins are between $100-$200. He was trying to make the position on 30% console take the strongest position he could in the hypothetical. He was talking about the broad strokes of how the console market works and the statement is being taken out of context in here for console wars.

And it's an important distinction to make in this thread.

Because what Sony fans are trying to do in here is make it sound like Sony has some secret mojo and they are somehow unaffected by the same things Xbox is because "they are just better engineers over there!" That is a very consistent meta conversation going on throughout this thread if we look closely. And it's simply not true. So, yes, it's true that Xbox is most likely still taking a loss almost for sure due to inflation imo. It's also true that Phil's statement has been taken out of context here to be used as a cudgel in the console wars. And, it's also true that Sony has the exact same problems because they haven't broken the laws of physics.

I was just setting the record straight that his statement is not proof of any kind of Sony secret sauce. Because I remember that silly stuff in the tech threads running up to the console launches very well and it was never true.

Ahhh I gotcha.. I guess I missed the parts where this statement was being used as a cudgel. Do people believe that Sony isn't subject to the exact same supply market?
lol, it's not about secret mojo...its just different design philosophies.

The PS5 disc and digital are the exact same console minus 1 shell and a disc drive.

The Series S has completely different specs vs the Series X.

This alone has to effect things.
 

Expy

Member
Oct 26, 2017
9,866
lol, it's not about secret mojo...its just different design philosophies.

The PS5 disc and digital are the exact same console minus 1 shell and a disc drive.

The Series S has completely different specs vs the Series X.

This alone has to effect things.
Yep, the only difference between PS5 SKUs are a faceplate and missing drive.
 

canderous

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 12, 2020
8,707
Any theories as to why MS isn't tweaking the Xbox Series' designs to be more cost-efficient?
No doubt they're constantly re-evaluating their supply chains and such to reduce costs. As for not shrinking the heat sink or something like that like that, it's probably because the physical design is already optimized about as much as it can be. Every teardown I saw about the Series X pretty much universally praised the design. MS also stated the reason they made the Series S is because they foresaw not having any significant reductions in chip cost for Series X, so there wouldn't be an opportunity to sell a cheaper console any time soon unless they made the S. Sony having to raise their price kinda confirmed their theory. These things aren't going to drop in manufacturing cost to the same degree they have in past gens.
 

krae_man

Master of Balan Wonderworld
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,608
I had a feeling they were taking a loss per console. Sony did the same strategy with the PS4. Didn't expect $100-$200 though, but millions in the red for xbox, seems like a small drop in the bucket of expenses MS as a company incurs


PS4s were sold at break even at worst. Playstation lost so much money on PS3 hardware they couldn't afford to subsidize hardware that gen.
 

T0kenAussie

Member
Jan 15, 2020
5,108
It's Microsoft. It is a valid concern that once they buy Activision and other publishers and make games Game Pass exclusive, you really won't be able to go somewhere else to play them.

This would be YEARS in the future, but there IS precedent. I can't just cancel Netflix when the price goes up and suddenly buy their new shows on bluray or watch them on Disney+.
Like decades in the future for Xbox and Microsoft to turn off game sales

I'm certain I would be dead before they stopped selling games traditionally that's how far in the future it would have to be

Gamepass revenue would have to be over 70% for it to make sense and it's currently at 15
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
13,972
Then why did they increase their console prices?
To keep that profitability with inflation, since pretty much every system sold is bundled the price increase is "hidden" in a sense. You also have to look to the future price drop mid-gen, it will look better than if the price drop comes for some territories and not for others. PS5s are still being sold out with every restock so their timing makes sense.
 

jroc74

Member
Oct 27, 2017
29,011
PS4s were sold at break even at worst. Playstation lost so much money on PS3 hardware they couldn't afford to subsidize hardware that gen.

They announced the Disc Edition was profitable last August.
Yup. You could tell how Sony didn't cut the price of the PS4 anymore they are focused on profits.

If the disc version was profitable last year, that could mean the digital loss went down some too.

Factor in revisions and possibly more upcoming revisions...they will keep trying to make profit a goal.

Then why did they increase their console prices?
The same reason alot of other industries had price increases recently.

Shipping costs went up, groceries went up, etc.

www.supplychaindive.com

UPS and FedEx rate increases are coming. Here’s how shippers can prepare.

Experts note that shipping rates are negotiable, but how amenable the delivery giants will be to concessions is up for debate.
 
Aug 19, 2022
1,103
Game consoles are pretty unique in terms of device hardware. You're expected to keep them around for 5 to 10 years, and the purchases you make on those devices more than makes up for the subsidy MS or Sony pays for each console sold. If consoles ever become like phones where you're expected to upgrade every one to two years, then absolutely you'll see the price of the hardware go up.
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
13,972
Yup. You could tell how Sony didn't cut the price of the PS4 anymore they are focused on profits.

If the disc version was profitable last year, that could mean the digital loss went down some too.

Factor in revisions and possibly more upcoming revisions...they will keep trying to make profit a goal.
They could take a $50-100 loss on the Digital Edition permanently.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,402
lol, it's not about secret mojo...its just different design philosophies.

The PS5 disc and digital are the exact same console minus 1 shell and a disc drive.

The Series S has completely different specs vs the Series X.

This alone has to effect things.

There are all sorts of differences that will cause variations in the supply chain.

That said, the materials used in the both versions of the ps5 are going to be significantly more expensive than what's found in the Series S. The Series X, will be the most expensive of all.
 

RetroFart

Member
Jul 23, 2022
344
Xbox as the platform or the console? I feel like that's an important distinction.

I don't see why all of Xbox's generations couldn't have been profitable, yes even the Xbox One.
I thought it was confirmed OG Xbox gen was a big loss

I'm with you though I could see Xbox One being profitable- just because they were third in sales/revenue doesn't mean they still didn't make a profit
 

12Danny123

Member
Jan 31, 2018
1,722
Haven't you heard? Game Pass is a trap. They get everybody on board with an artificially low price and then they double it and everybody is just stuck and can't stop paying, with no way to switch to any other platform or go back to buying games.

I think Microsoft will close the gold conversion loophole, adjust Live Gold pricing, and potentially scale back or discontinue the Microsoft Rewards program before making a substantial change to Game Pass pricing. Bribing rewarding people for using Bing is exactly the sort of thing that is easier to justify in good economic times than in a recession. I think their main focus is going to be getting Live Gold subscribers to get Game Pass, and getting Game Pass subscribers to get Game Pass Ultimate.

Microsoft makes money from. Bing searches, so Microdoft is indirectly making that money back from Game Pass via Microsoft Rewards.
 

lupumVigili

Member
Oct 27, 2020
198
That is not the cost of the Disc Edition, it is $500 and they officially announced profitability.
Sorry, my mistake, I still don't think the cost of production is less than $500 per console. It's entirely possible for them to be profitable with it even when running the subsidy considering that the console is part of an ecosystem.
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
13,972
Sorry, my mistake, I still don't think the cost of production is less than $500 per console. It's entirely possible for them to be profitable with it even when running the subsidy considering that the console is part of an ecosystem.
They specifically said the console itself is sold at a profit, not the same situation as the PS4 launch where they said a game and accessory make it profitable. Hard to believe or not, that is official statement and would be odd to doubt them on this when they have been consistent about numbers.
 

lupumVigili

Member
Oct 27, 2020
198
They specifically said the console itself is sold at a profit, not the same situation as the PS4 launch where they said a game and accessory make it profitable. Hard to believe or not, that is official statement and would be odd to doubt them on this when they have been consistent about numbers.
Then I'm properly confused, I'd have assumed the cost of production between the 2 consoles to be similar considering they pretty much use the same suppliers.
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
13,972
Then I'm properly confused, I'd have assumed the cost of production between the 2 consoles to be similar considering they pretty much use the same suppliers.
PS5 SOC is 25% smaller, uses a traditional cooler with liquid metal which is cheaper than the vapour chamber in XSX, if you recall they also cut the size down of the heatsink quite a bit, and both editions also use the exact same internals.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,781
PS5 SOC is 25% smaller, uses a traditional cooler with liquid metal which is cheaper than the vapour chamber in XSX, if you recall they also cut the size down of the heatsink quite a bit, and both editions also use the exact same internals.

While I'm not exactly knowledgeable on the subject, I have seen people comment that Sony may have secured a larger order of components, which may have also allowed them to negotiate a better price per unit.
 

lupumVigili

Member
Oct 27, 2020
198
PS5 SOC is 25% smaller, uses a traditional cooler with liquid metal which is cheaper than the vapour chamber in XSX, if you recall they also cut the size down of the heatsink quite a bit, and both editions also use the exact same internals.
That wouldn't explain a $100-$200+ cost in production per console unless I'm missing something. Also The XSX has a cheaper SSD to factor into the equation
 

cooldawn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
2,453
Making exclusive Call of Duty will lose them money. Most of its recurring revenue is from MTX, which do better on a wide, multi-platform userbase (not to mention population health). Phil has already said they want to treat it like Minecraft (even bringing it to Switch), yet this narrative of exclusivity continues to linger.
If Phil could get Call of Duty in the position where it makes financial sense to make it exclusive, he will. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Microsoft makes the call, to eat losses for a period of time and make Call of Duty exclusive. It'll pay for itself at some point.

Just for reference, I don't care if Call of Duty does become exclusive.

If it is, why didn't they raise it in the US?
Just because a territory isn't get a price increase doesn't mean it won't in the future or that Sony didn't need to raise the price elsewhere.
 

canderous

Prophet of Truth
Member
Jun 12, 2020
8,707
While I'm not exactly knowledgeable on the subject, I have seen people comment that Sony may have secured a larger order of components, which may have also allowed them to negotiate a better price per unit.
Don't think the difference in number of chips or components is that big really, especially when you factor in X+S consoles and all the Xcloud servers. There are a lot of Series X chips that were made but will never see the outside of a server room.
 

vivftp

Member
Oct 29, 2017
19,781
Don't think the difference in number of chips or components is that big really, especially when you factor in X+S consoles and all the Xcloud servers. There are a lot of Series X chips that were made but will never see the outside of a server room.

I am curious how component shortages may have affected things. Of course both companies were hit by it, but let me use Sony as an example. Say Sony had ordered components for 20 million PS5's in the first year and got a great price per unit, but due to shortages they only got 12 million units. Does that mean they still get the great price that was negotiated at 20 million units? Or do prices then get renegotiated since they're getting a lower volume? I would think it's the former, but am unsure.
 

Reddaye

Member
Mar 24, 2018
2,909
New Brunswick, Canada
If Phil could get Call of Duty in the position where it makes financial sense to make it exclusive, he will. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Microsoft makes the call, to eat losses for a period of time and make Call of Duty exclusive. It'll pay for itself at some point.

Just for reference, I don't care if Call of Duty does become exclusive.

This hypothetical scenario never happened with Minecraft, or it's spin offs Dungeons and the upcoming Legends. A purchase that has long since paid for itself. A franchise that sells plenty of MTX, has a strong multiplayer community, and would be an ace in the hole exclusive. Phil said it would remain multiplatform, and it has.

The precedent is there. Some people just seem to be unwilling to see it.
 

Hyun Sai

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,562
I suppose they are studying the percentage of Playstation users that may switch to Xbox ecosystem to play CoD. It would be more simple for Microsoft if they were already the console market leader. As it is, it's a tough gamble, I agree, but who knows.

And yeah, like the poster said above, Minecraft stayed multiplatform despite being the behemot it is.
 

Trup1aya

Literally a train safety expert
Member
Oct 25, 2017
21,402
If Phil could get Call of Duty in the position where it makes financial sense to make it exclusive, he will. I wouldn't at all be surprised if Microsoft makes the call, to eat losses for a period of time and make Call of Duty exclusive. It'll pay for itself at some point.

Just for reference, I don't care if Call of Duty does become exclusive.

COD "paying for itself" as an exclusive will never happen … unless it drops off in popularity so hard that multi-platform development becomes too costly.
 

Det

Member
Jul 30, 2020
12,899
Don't think the difference in number of chips or components is that big really, especially when you factor in X+S consoles and all the Xcloud servers. There are a lot of Series X chips that were made but will never see the outside of a server room.

There are a few material differences we can identify that impact COGS between the two, but it's hard to specify exactly how many $ that equates to. At a high-level:

For XSX

- XSX has a larger SoC i.e., less chips per wafer in turn increasing unit cost (assuming equal yield)
- XSX vapor chamber/cooling system is more expensive than a traditional heat-sink
- XSX split-motherboard design being more expensive to manufacture but that is an assumption
- XSX packaging (box) has more expensive materials

BUT

- XSX has smaller packaging dimensions, and originally weighed less than the OG PS5, reducing logistics costs
- XSX has a slower SSD, reducing component cost
- XSX has a single manufacturing line set-up
- XSX has a cheaper controller component cost

For PS5

- PS5 has a faster SSD which is more expensive (although less capacity relative to XSX)
- PS5 is larger in terms of packaging dimensions, increasing logistics costs
- PS5 has two models (disc, digital) with assembly line differences at least at the end, increasing costs
- DualSense having more components/features increasing unit costs

BUT

- PS5 has a smaller SoC increasing per wafer output (assuming equal yield)
- PS5 has a more traditional heat-sink paired with liquid metal, likely less than the vapor chamber design
- PS5 has undergone revisions reducing materials used i.e., heatsink mass and motherboard shrink, reducing cost both in raw manufacturing materials and reduced weight for logistics (current iterations light than an XSX) but still larger dimension-wise (unsure of the relative trade-offs between weight vs dimensions for logistics pricing)
- PS5 packaging being bare-bones and made from recycled paper/cardboard

Future looking: if rumors are true about PS5D being the only model with an optional disc-drive accessory, that would simplify the manufacturing side reducing costs somewhat.

Then there are the volume/scale and R&D factors to take into account for Xbox as a whole: two separate manufacturing production lines for XSX/XSS and associated volume discounts being split between them, two separate consoles for R&D (console internal design, retail box packaging, component sourcing, SoC differences, fab lines) etc. Can't comment on SoC volume costs due to use of XSX SoC's in xCloud.

Impossible to gauge exact $ figures with all the above but those are the superficial differences between the two.
 

inpHilltr8r

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,256
Is the XBox SSD actually cheaper? I thought it was less custom, and that can easily end up being more expensive if it takes up more space or uses more external IP. Also, they have 2 lines, XSS and XSX, not just XSX, and they're locked into that split when they order chips at some horrendous lead time.
 

bitcloudrzr

Member
May 31, 2018
13,972
That wouldn't explain a $100-$200+ cost in production per console unless I'm missing something. Also The XSX has a cheaper SSD to factor into the equation
There are other reasons, such as the scale at which Sony orders chips based on sales of the previous gen, SSD may be faster but only one model for the PS5. There are other reasons listed by Det, but at the end of the day they were able to get the $500 system to profit in less than a year similar to the PS4.
 

Dave.

Member
Oct 27, 2017
6,155
Is the XBox SSD actually cheaper? I thought it was less custom, and that can easily end up being more expensive if it takes up more space or uses more external IP. Also, they have 2 lines, XSS and XSX, not just XSX, and they're locked into that split when they order chips at some horrendous lead time.
I'd expect the PS5 SSD is cheaper by some margin. They're not using fancy NAND chips or anything - it's a "slow and wide" design. But most importantly it's built in to the motherboard, assembled alongside the rest of it. The Xbox ones are made by a third party (Western Digital IIRC), and socketed. It's always going to be a lot cheaper to buy 6 million nand chips than 2 million finished 2230 NVME SSDs. Not to mention, the PS5's is smaller in capacity than the X also.