Eroke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
523
I read various posts and read SNS posts from abroad.

Due to the mass layoffs conducted by MS this time, I do not know what kind of 'butterfly effect' it will cause.
However, the 343i seems to continue to receive very poor reviews from the release of Infinite to the present.
By the way, what I'm thinking is that 343i has become a lot of mass layoffs, so I'm not sure who to point out is at fault.
In addition, I was surprised that 343i had a lot of contract workers.

What was the problem? What?

Microsoft's neglectful studio management?
343i's Halo Infinite Development Issues?
Phil Spencer's Leadership Problem?
A failure in the development direction of Bonnie Ross, former CEO of 343i?
Just want to save money?

Looking at the evaluation of the game Halo Infinite now, I think it may not be just a problem for high-level employees.

However, according to the tweets posted by all the employees so far, it seems that there were also problems with high-ranking officials at Microsoft and 343i.

By the way, I don't know who to get mad at about the mass dismissal of MS.

I hope this is done well and the studio is properly managed.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,107
Layoffs are sad, but a static job market is not the solution.
None of these companies have "static" workforce even for a single year.
They have atrition targets designed to cycle out lower performing part of the curve(usually around 5% annually), and voluntary attrition on top of that(which doubled or tripled in most places in 21-22).
Some places had total attrition in mid double digits last year, before these layoffs.
 

Vonterribad

Member
Jul 17, 2022
837
I read various posts and read SNS posts from abroad.

Due to the mass layoffs conducted by MS this time, I do not know what kind of 'butterfly effect' it will cause.
However, the 343i seems to continue to receive very poor reviews from the release of Infinite to the present.
By the way, what I'm thinking is that 343i has become a lot of mass layoffs, so I'm not sure who to point out is at fault.
In addition, I was surprised that 343i had a lot of contract workers.

What was the problem? What?

Microsoft's neglectful studio management?
343i's Halo Infinite Development Issues?
Phil Spencer's Leadership Problem?
A failure in the development direction of Bonnie Ross, former CEO of 343i?
Just want to save money?

Looking at the evaluation of the game Halo Infinite now, I think it may not be just a problem for high-level employees.

However, according to the tweets posted by all the employees so far, it seems that there were also problems with high-ranking officials at Microsoft and 343i.

By the way, I don't know who to get mad at about the mass dismissal of MS.

I hope this is done well and the studio is properly managed.

Well you don't get mad, you are about to see a lot more lay-offs across many companies in the coming months. This is just the first.
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
Oct 31, 2017
3,287
Having record profits and fighting in court to be allowed to spend $70 Billion on a publisher acquisition while laying of 10,000 people is fucked up optics.

I don't know what the hell is going on at MS but none of this makes sense to me as an outsider looking in.
 

DukeBlueBall

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
9,059
Seattle, WA
Having record profits and fighting in court to be allowed to spend $70 Billion on a publisher acquisition while laying of 10,000 people is fucked up optics.

I don't know what the hell is going on at MS but none of this makes sense to me as an outsider looking in.

This might help you understand. Both ABK acquisition and layoffs are short term expenses to increase long term income flow.
 

Eroke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
523
Well you don't get mad, you are about to see a lot more lay-offs across many companies in the coming months. This is just the first.


It's a bit off topic,

Because of the current global financial market or the global situation,

Do you think other game companies(sony,nintendo,etc...) are going to have mass layoffs?
 
Jul 22, 2022
1,867
Do you think other game companies(sony,nintendo,etc...) are going to have mass layoffs?
Yes, but we probably won't hear much because Nintendo for example is small, and Sony's headquarters are in Japan mostly. I don't believe we receive a lot of reports from SIE either.

I mean if even Riot Games are affected, then it is gonna be brutal for everybody else.
 

Megabreath

Member
Oct 25, 2018
2,673
This might help you understand. Both ABK acquisition and layoffs are short term expenses to increase long term income flow.

They have a point though, firing 10,000 then hiring another 10,000 from Activision while spending 70 billion in the process does look bad. Especially when its other in house game studios that are getting hit.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,580
Having record profits and fighting in court to be allowed to spend $70 Billion on a publisher acquisition while laying of 10,000 people is fucked up optics.

I don't know what the hell is going on at MS but none of this makes sense to me as an outsider looking in.

Companies will flex up and down employees as necessary to maintain their ideal profit ratios. The optics are irrelevant. MS doesn't need to layoff anyone. But their valuation is going to be affected by any extra ops costs they carry that are not directly leading to increased profitability. An acquisition like ABK has a long term horizon (or it should if the people chasing it know wtf they are doing) and it would be a strategic move.

I'd hazard to guess many of the companies in tech downsizing already knew that they would flex down after the covid boon died way before this year or even last year. If they didn't then they have poor planning.

With the money MS is making they don't need to lay anybody off (in theory). But layoffs for publicly traded companies are about shareprice, not purely about profits. I'd have to look at MS's shareprice over the last few years to see if it jumped a lot but if it did then the pressure would be to maintain it or move it higher. They had record profits (I mean that in itself doesn't mean much, you can make financial statement say anything you want them too) but if the shareprice isn't moving much aa a result of that then that should draw some questions.

Layoffs in tech to some extent depend on whom is doing them. Some services simply lost their inflated value after covid "ended" (think video conferencing after people started to return to the office, business has more momentum than before but there is 0 chance they can maintain the previous sales velocity) where as some are just big companies using the trend as an excuse to shed staff. Just gotta remember, none of them care about optics as long as the optics doesn't destroy their ability to recruit talent in key areas. MS, Google, Apple etc, none or them are ethical companies towards their staff. The staff has always been disposable.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,287
Companies will flex up and down employees as necessary to maintain their ideal profit ratios. The optics are irrelevant. MS doesn't need to layoff anyone. But their valuation is going to be affected by any extra ops costs they carry that are not directly leading to increased profitability. An acquisition like ABK has a long term horizon (or it should if the people chasing it know wtf they are doing) and it would be a strategic move.

I'd hazard to guess many of the companies in tech downsizing already knew that they would flex down after the covid boon died way before this year or even last year. If they didn't then they have poor planning.

With the money MS is making they don't need to lay anybody off (in theory). But layoffs for publicly traded companies are about shareprice, not purely about profits. I'd have to look at MS's shareprice over the last few years to see if it jumped a lot but if it did then the pressure would be to maintain it or move it higher. They had record profits (I mean that in itself doesn't mean much, you can make financial statement say anything you want them too) but if the shareprice isn't moving much aa a result of that then that should draw some questions.

Layoffs in tech to some extent depend on whom is doing them. Some services simply lost their inflated value after covid "ended" (think video conferencing after people started to return to the office, business has more momentum than before but there is 0 chance they can maintain the previous sales velocity) where as some are just big companies using the trend as an excuse to shed staff. Just gotta remember, none of them care about optics as long as the optics doesn't destroy their ability to recruit talent in key areas. MS, Google, Apple etc, none or them are ethical companies towards their staff. The staff has always been disposable.
Again, I fully understand the business behind it but I still feel it's wrong.

Phil and the top executives at MS have spent time cultivating this "good guy" image at Microsoft especially during the court proceedings that have been going on.

Doing stuff like this while smart for business looks coldblooded and cruel to me. It's totally unnecessary to be laying off 10,000 people when you're making record profits and also trying to spend a record amount of money on acquisitions. Yea, it's good for spreadsheet analysts and investors will probably like it but I care more about people than I care about soulless investors' wallets and spreadsheets.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,580
It's a bit off topic,

Because of the current global financial market or the global situation,

Do you think other game companies(sony,nintendo,etc...) are going to have mass layoffs?

If the game companies have been underperforming then sure. Neither Sony or Nintendo have had that problem and in a content driven industry as platform holders, at least in my (entirely amateur and not industry tested) view, I don't see much reason to think they would shed staff. Ateast not development staff. I could see slashes to like HR/Marketing/Sales if they feel they are bloated but just ball parking, no prob not.

Ubisoft for example? 100% they are gonna lay people off in the next 18 months.
 

TurkishDelight

C++ Developer at Microsoft
Banned
Oct 5, 2022
1,346
one of my friend is just got fired. And i think it will take until end of Q3 (firings). Oh well , better start looking for jobs
 

AEF1907

Fallen Guardian Corrupted by Vengeance
Member
Dec 18, 2021
4,125
Yes, but we probably won't hear much because Nintendo for example is small, and Sony's headquarters are in Japan mostly. I don't believe we receive a lot of reports from SIE either.

I mean if even Riot Games are affected, then it is gonna be brutal for everybody else.

Nintendo and Sony are publicly traded, if they have mass layoffs we will know it.
 

Kitano

Member
Mar 28, 2019
1,254
This is one of the reasons I'm against industry consolidation and gigantic corporations like MS
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,580
Again, I fully understand the business behind it but I still feel it's wrong.

Phil and the top executives at MS have spent time cultivating this "good guy" image at Microsoft especially during the court proceedings that have been going on.

Doing stuff like this while smart for business looks coldblooded and cruel to me. It's totally unnecessary to be laying off 10,000 people when you're making record profits and also trying to spend a record amount of money on acquisitions. Yea, it's good for spreadsheet analysts and investors will probably like it but I care more about people than I care about soulless investors' wallets and spreadsheets.

I mean, all I would say to this is once a company goes public, there is 0 reason to believe anything they do at high level stategy setting does not have share price in mind. MS has been so rich and so highly share price driven for so long, being honest I have no idea why anyone actually gives a fuck about what Phil and friends has to say.

Obviously it is evil but I mean I guess I just don't get the hand wringing about optics. They never cared about that stuff. Us regular people sure, but I mean I also feel like the common person never bought the idea that these companies care about employees anyway.

In an ideal world you wouldn't shed 5% of workforce unless you were really bleeding money. But big ass companies like MS have never played in that field.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,842
Even without either we would be seeing rounds of (large) tech layoffs atm. Just this morning it broke that Riot is letting people go.

That's true, but people are already chatting about the possibility of portfolio redundancy post-ABK, and the incentives MS and ABK will or won't have around portfolio pruning, now or in the future. Staffing redundancy can happen with companies as independents, product redundancy not so easily. And product redundancy certainly can beget additional staff redundancy that wouldn't exist otherwise (and also reduce customer choice).
 

Kitano

Member
Mar 28, 2019
1,254
Even without either we would be seeing rounds of (large) tech layoffs atm. Just this morning it broke that Riot is letting people go.
This is not the point. I'm talking about their gaming divisions or studios being impacted by the layoff as well.

Would Bethesda and the other MS gaming studios acquired have laid off people like what we are seeing now if not part of MS? I can't predict the future, but I don't think so.

Also I said this before and some people defending consolidation argued against me: ABK is a hell of an acquisition. It will be a matter of time until a great share of people with duplicate roles get pushed out as well when they figure out where all the "synergies" are.
 

Eroke

Member
Oct 27, 2017
523
If the game companies have been underperforming then sure. Neither Sony or Nintendo have had that problem and in a content driven industry as platform holders, at least in my (entirely amateur and not industry tested) view, I don't see much reason to think they would shed staff. Ateast not development staff. I could see slashes to like HR/Marketing/Sales if they feel they are bloated but just ball parking, no prob not.

Ubisoft for example? 100% they are gonna lay people off in the next 18 months.
If the game companies have been underperforming then sure. Neither Sony or Nintendo have had that problem and in a content driven industry as platform holders, at least in my (entirely amateur and not industry tested) view, I don't see much reason to think they would shed staff. Ateast not development staff. I could see slashes to like HR/Marketing/Sales if they feel they are bloated but just ball parking, no prob not.

Ubisoft for example? 100% they are gonna lay people off in the next 18 months.


Ubisoft is... I think the CEO is wrong.

In my opinion, if you look at the recent games released by Ubisoft, it feels like they're all copied and pasted.

EA... It's just... Let's not talk there.
 
Oct 31, 2017
3,287
I mean, all I would say to this is once a company goes public, there is 0 reason to believe anything they do at high level stategy setting does not have share price in mind. MS has been so rich and so highly share price driven for so long, being honest I have no idea why anyone actually gives a fuck about what Phil and friends has to say.

Obviously it is evil but I mean I guess I just don't get the hand wringing about optics. They never cared about that stuff. Us regular people sure, but I mean I also feel like the common person never bought the idea that these companies care about employees anyway.

In an ideal world you wouldn't shed 5% of workforce unless you were really bleeding money. But big ass companies like MS have never played in that field.
You're right, I personally never really believed Phil's bullshit or any of the other executives at MS about being "good guys" either.

They are coldblooded like other CEOs and executives. These companies only care about the bottom line and executives and CEOs like Phil are just talking heads.

I just find it ironic Phil was receiving an award two days ago and went on about being a "custodian of joy" as a business leader. Extremely poor timing for his speech when you look at what they did a day after he made that speech. You know he knew about the massive layoffs when he was making that speech and he still made it anyway.
 

Tovarisc

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,546
FIN
This is not the point. I'm talking their gaming divisions or studios being impacted by the layoff as well.

Would Bethesda and the other MS gaming studios acquired have laid off people this what we are seeing now if not part of MS? I can't predict the future, but I don't think so.

Also I said this before and some people defending consolidation argued against me: ABK is a hell of an acquisition. It will be a matter of time until a great share of people with duplicate roles get pushed out as well when they figure out where all the "synergies" are.

That is something we could speculate until heat death of the universe. Would e.g. Bethesda or 343 or Arkane or... lay off people during tech downturn and end of boom driven by COVID coming to an end if they were independent instead of part of another corporation? I say yes, you say no and in circles we go.

ABk acquisition is its own, separate, thing and still not lock for going through.
 

Kitano

Member
Mar 28, 2019
1,254
You're right, I personally never really believed Phil's bullshit or any of the other executives at MS about being "good guys" either.

They are coldblooded like other CEOs and executives. These companies only care about the bottom line and executives and CEOs like Phil are just talking heads.

I just find it ironic Phil was receiving an award two days ago and went on about being a "custodian of joy" as a business leader. Extremely poor timing for his speech when you look at what they did a day after he made that speech. You know he knew about the massive layoffs when he was making that speech and he still made it anyway.
Phil is one of the most overhyped persons in the gaming industry.

It's incredible how easily people fall for his corporate BS.
 

Kitano

Member
Mar 28, 2019
1,254
That is something we could speculate until heat death of the universe. Would e.g. Bethesda or 343 or Arkane or... lay off people during tech downturn and end of boom driven by COVID coming to an end if they were independent instead of part of another corporation? I say yes, you say no and in circles we go.

ABk acquisition is its own, separate, thing and still not lock for going through.
What we are sure is that they are laying off now.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,580
This is not the point. I'm talking about their gaming divisions or studios being impacted by the layoff as well.

Would Bethesda and the other MS gaming studios acquired have laid off people like what we are seeing now if not part of MS? I can't predict the future, but I don't think so.

Also I said this before and some people defending consolidation argued against me: ABK is a hell of an acquisition. It will be a matter of time until a great share of people with duplicate roles get pushed out as well when they figure out where all the "synergies" are.

There is no way for us to know whether acquired companies would or would not lay people off during a time when tech layoffs are wide spread. It is extremely hard to know in an industry like gaming which is content driven but also the content takes a lot of time and resourcss to make. How did you come to the conclusion of "I don't think so"?

The ABK acquisition 100% would not grow out employees though. You are correct. Redundancies will 100% be trimmed away. The whole point of consolidation is to reduce costs through sharing of resources. During M&A the easiest synergies to value are the ones that result in operational efficiencies so at least in my (again amateur and not industry tested) mind, shedding redundant none development staff is 100% inevitable.

If we are talking about growing a workforce to produce more content, ABK was already rich as fuck and could have done that if they wanted. It may be in MS' interest to have them make more content but I always have serious doubts about how much more volume an organization wants directly under their banner when market conditions can change. MS has the resources the quadruple their content creation. Should they though? Imo probably not.

I already had it out with a lot of people when the discussion was if MS would make CoD exclusive to Xbox. I argued yes because I don't see the point of buying a company just to do the exact same shit they were already doing. MS committed to multiplat CoD (and I assume other service based games) and seemingly other content will be exclusive. Personally I dont see much point to ABK if the big money making services are going to stay as they are. MS is not cash strapped. They dont need an acquisition like this just for extra revenue generation. I don't see the value creation here but that's just me.
 
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Gavalanche

Prophet of Regret
Member
Oct 21, 2021
18,542
Yes, but we probably won't hear much because Nintendo for example is small, and Sony's headquarters are in Japan mostly. I don't believe we receive a lot of reports from SIE either.

I mean if even Riot Games are affected, then it is gonna be brutal for everybody else.

Sony and Nintendo haven't gone on crazy hiring sprees and aren't plagued by the same issues that other big companies are. Sony May still do it because who the hell knows with big companies, but I would be surprised if Nintendo did. They are already quite lean with no bloat. Japan is also just different culturally.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,804
That's true, but people are already chatting about the possibility of portfolio redundancy post-ABK, and the incentives MS and ABK will or won't have around portfolio pruning, now or in the future. Staffing redundancy can happen with companies as independents, product redundancy not so easily. And product redundancy certainly can beget additional staff redundancy that wouldn't exist otherwise (and also reduce customer choice).

ABK has done its fair share of layoffs over the past decade. I don't think anything would drastically change there.
 

Fafalada

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,107
FYI, most of the big tech companies froze PIP for 2020 and 2021.
You'll have to define 'most' - because that's not the 2020 I remember. People were still getting managed out during peak of Covid left and right.
21 is when people started resigning en-masse, so yea - when your attrition shoots up above 30% (which happened to a few of these companies), things change.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,580
You're right, I personally never really believed Phil's bullshit or any of the other executives at MS about being "good guys" either.

They are coldblooded like other CEOs and executives. These companies only care about the bottom line and executives and CEOs like Phil are just talking heads.

I just find it ironic Phil was receiving an award two days ago and went on about being a "custodian of joy" as a business leader. Extremely poor timing for his speech when you look at what they did a day after he made that speech. You know he knew about the massive layoffs when he was making that speech and he still made it anyway.

When you get that high up in a company you're already selling your soul to the machine. No one should pay attention to anything any of these people say about culture or morals. Really, unless you're an investor nothing they say is worth acknowledging. Just straight lies, spin and posturing.
 

Arn

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 28, 2017
5,822
It's shit, and it won't be the last round of layoffs we see in the next six months. A lot of these large technology companies have gone early, plenty will follow.
 

gofreak

Member
Oct 26, 2017
7,842
ABK has done its fair share of layoffs over the past decade. I don't think anything would drastically change there.

As I said, "staffing redundancy can happen with companies as independents"

I'm questioning if in a combined entity, with a combined product portfolio, additional redundancy might arise at a product level that could lead to more redundancy at a staff level than if companies remained independent. As independents, companies may be that bit more incentivized to stick to products that in a combined portfolio might more easily get the chop.
 

PLASTICA-MAN

Member
Oct 26, 2017
24,212
WOw between riot, ubi and now this? Clearly video game dev is among the unsafest jobs. All support to all devs in the world.
 

phonicjoy

Banned
Jun 19, 2018
4,305
Nadella and others like him should take massive pay cuts, that was true yesterday, and is only more true today.


I know this is not a popular opinion right now, and this obviously suck for everyone who are losing their job, but this stuff is also what gives other companies a chance to grow and hire people with experience in their fields.

Hopefully everyone find new jobs ina reasonable timeframe.

Also, somewhat unrelated, but unionize, seriously!
Workers need to look out for themselves and each other, and not rely on the hope that companies wont screw them over at any moment.

While that is true, Its a pet peeve of mine that this is just standard operating procedure for managers in non-growth times. Out of ideas? Fire 10%! Kill a division!
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,804
As I said, "staffing redundancy can happen with companies as independents"

I'm questioning if in a combined entity, with a combined product portfolio, additional redundancy might arise at a product level that could lead to more redundancy at a staff level than if companies remained independent. As independents, companies may be that bit more incentivized to stick to products that in a combined portfolio might more easily get the chop.

Probably, that seems like a logical outcome.
 

Gotdatmoney

Member
Oct 28, 2017
14,580
As I said, "staffing redundancy can happen with companies as independents"

I'm questioning if in a combined entity, with a combined product portfolio, additional redundancy might arise at a product level that could lead to more redundancy at a staff level than if companies remained independent. As independents, companies may be that bit more incentivized to stick to products that in a combined portfolio might more easily get the chop.

It is certainly possible. Tbh though I don't get the point of this acquisition if they are going to trim product redundancies. Xbox would have received all of these products anyway if they left ABK alone. They get to eat more of the profits owning them but they also swallow all the expenses too. Imo it's a wash. The whole appeal of ABK being first party imo is you get a host of exclusive content. If you are keeping the money makers multiplat and you're gonna trim redundant content that would be exclusive then wtf was the point of any of this?

If MS ends up with reduced content in their future state than their current state then genuinely, this acquisition seems even more pointless to me than it already was. Content is the main driver of consumer interest. You dont need an infinite amount but I see 0 value in having less as a conglomerate than as individual entities considering the 30% cut you were already making doing considerably less. To me this would he ultimate example of the strategy team not knowing wtf they were getting into.
 

Cheat Code

Member
Oct 30, 2017
1,754
A necessary sacrifice to make the $70billion spent on Activision 🙏

As well all well know, Call of Duty is more important than people's livelihoods.
 

Kitano

Member
Mar 28, 2019
1,254
There is no way for us to know whether acquired companies would or would not lay people off during a time when tech layoffs are wide spread. It is extremely hard to know in an industry like gaming which is content driven but also the content takes a lot of time and resourcss to make. How did you come to the conclusion of "I don't think so"?

The ABK acquisition 100% would not grow out employees though. You are correct. Redundancies will 100% be trimmed away. The whole point of consolidation is to reduce costs through sharing of resources. During M&A the easiest synergies to value are the ones that result in operational efficiencies so at least in my (again amateur and not industry tested) mind, shedding redundant none development staff is 100% inevitable.

If we are talking about growing a workforce to produce more content, ABK was already rich as fuck and could have done that if they wanted. It may be in MS' interest to have them make more content but I always have serious doubts about how much more volume an organization wants directly under their banner when market conditions can change. MS has the resources the quadruple their content creation. Should they though? Imo probably not.

I already had it out with a lot of people when the discussion was if MS would make CoD exclusive to Xbox. I argued yes because I don't see the point of buying a company just to do the exact same shit they were already doing. MS committed to multiplat CoD (and I assume other service based games) and seemingly other content will be exclusive. Personally I dont see much point to ABK if the big money making services are going to stay as they are. MS is not cash strapped. They dont need an acquisition like this just for extra revenue generation. I don't see the value creation here but that's just me.
My opinion comes from these lines of thinking:

- I am not following the news up close, but I didn't see much regarding gaming-only companies lay offs lately, in contrast of big tech, where virtually everybody is passing through this.

- As you know, the mindset of trimming your workforce is not uncommon in large corporations. Every now and then they do it, be it due to divesting a segment, reduce costs/drive profits, to facilitate the firing of low performing staff, and so on. With companies of this scale, even when you are not related to the main issue you can be impacted.

My take is that the probability of this happening is greater on a big tech company than the opposite.
 

Sanctuary

Member
Oct 27, 2017
14,298
How can a company that is posting record profits and acquiring others for billions upon billions of dollars in spare cash they have laying around justify firing that many people? Its a load of crap.

Buy up all the competition so that you have a monopoly, then fire all of the "extras" you don't need. It is a load of crap, but Microsoft was never a friend, they're just a megacorporation playing the long game.
 

Terbinator

Member
Oct 29, 2017
10,348
I do think it's a bit strange they go straight for the lay off rather than trying to move in to other MS studios (aka Playground).