XR.

Member
Nov 22, 2018
6,650
It's still probably a higher percentage of negativity than is reflective of the whole. The average person will tend to review to complain more than review to praise.
How does that make sense if most reviews are positive? People tend to be vocal about things they're not happy with, but we can't change that, nor should we. But that doesn't change the fact that people also tend to review to simply praise a game they like.

"Top 250 Rated Games on Steam"
There should be a chart at the top, showing a summary of all rated games.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,572
It's funny because I equate it the opposite. Like those complaining about review bombing being inappropriate and saying people should find other (read: non disruptive, ineffectual) forms of protest, is similar rhetoric to right wingers annoyed at JSO or any other protest that inconveniences them slightly.
Right wing politics is characterized largely by Reaction, ie) a tendency to be concerned less about the content of a thing and more about the form — an objection to the who and the what of a thing more than the why, driven by a desire to preserve or restore a comfortable status quo.

So it feels like we're basically agreeing — "review bombing is bad because Right Wingers do it and doing it therefore makes PC gamers Right Wing. I refuse to engage with the stated motivations and concrete concerns underlying this because I just want all this unseemly disruption to stop" is indeed very closely related in terms of the underlying thought processes to similar right wing grievances about "blue-haired protestors blocking streets" or w/e. It's all reactionary.
 

Kuga

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
2,304
I'm surprised it took until Monday for them to backtrack. I don't see how anybody can reasonably defend Sony here; the mere fact that the situation got to this point is on them entirely as far as I'm concerned. If it's true that they pushed the PSN requirement onto Arrowhead a mere 6 months prior to launch, that is kind of crazy from a timeline perspective. Whether or not the issues with PSN linking were the result of poor implementation or Sony's backend burning to the ground, that initial launch period was the only time you could reasonably expect to make account linking mandatory.

Permitting Arrowhead to turn that off, even temporarily, was the nail in the coffin for forcing the integration. Coming back months later and saying 'oh by the way, we're now going to enforce that thing we haven't enforced since launch and you will no longer be able to play the game if you don't do this' is probably one of the most obvious PR disasters in the making that I could imagine for your fledgling lightning-in-a-bottle franchise. The fact that apparently nobody at Sony was willing to compromise on this before the review/refund shitshow shows either a strong lack of insight into the PC market or a truly inflexible approach to running a business, which is particularly sinful management in my opinion when Sony is attempting to establish a major presence in a new market.

On top of that mess, Sony selling the game in regions where they don't actually support PSN is also a very dumb oversight. Worse, how is it that an international gaming company's account system and online platform only supports ~70(?) countries in [current year]? To me it sounds positively archaic.

Hopefully, Sony can take away some important lessons from this incident:
1.) PSN needs a ton of work if they want it to be a platform-agnostic worldwide service. From how the service/infrastructure is run to how many countries are supported, from what I've seen and read PSN is not even remotely up to the task at present. Sony needs to quickly ramp up investment if they want their PC gaming initiative to be truly successful.

2.) There's no putting a genie back in the bottle once it's out. We can only speculate as to why Sony was so adamant about forcing PSN account linking (and I don't buy the moderation argument for a single second), but you enforce it from the beginning or not at all. The infrastructure was not up to the task, and neither was the contract with the developer if they were unilaterally permitted to waive the requirement. That being said, if I was a 3rd party developer contracting with Sony as a publisher, I would be very hesitant to hand Sony that sort of control, especially during the critical launch windows that can entirely make or break games when said integration service can essentially be nonfunctional and prevent users from playing your game. If linking is mandatory, a robust backend account service on the Sony side is absolutely necessary.

3.) PC gamers are not console gamers. They have different needs, desires, and attitudes about things. Sony experienced a gigantic amount of pain because they did not adequately understand the PC market. I don't think anybody could've anticipated the sheer magnitude of the backlash, but the reaction itself was predictable. Sony should bend to meet the needs of the PC gaming market if they want to succeed -- it doesn't work the other way around like in the console space where they own the whole fiefdom. PC gamers can (and from what we've just seen, absolutely will) tell Sony to fuck off for arbitrary or petty reasons -- and that's their right as consumers that I'm glad they acted on. Nobody should be forced to accept a corporation's bullshit if they don't agree with it by voting with their wallet and their feedback.

4.) A minor note relatively speaking, but waiting until Monday to change course was absolutely unacceptable. Either time your changes more appropriately or have management that isn't asleep at the wheel. This was the sort of PR nightmare that should've had executives in the office (U.S. and Japan) by Friday evening working 16 hour shifts until there was a plan in motion and the situation was mitigated. What the fuck are they paying those people for if management isn't on hand to quickly provide guidance and resolve the disaster?
 

Chucker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,380
Maryland
And this is unique to Steam how?

It's not, at all. The amount of different trainings we had when I was in the banking world about customer service and nailing down the point that the person who had anything from a decent to stellar meal at a restaurant is less likely to say a word than the person who had a hair in their soup is like X:1 with the X being negative. It's just how people work.
 

Sir Lucan

Member
Dec 19, 2023
782
Right wing politics is characterized largely by Reaction, ie) a tendency to be concerned less about the content of a thing and more about the form — an objection to the who and the what of a thing more than the why, driven by a desire to preserve or restore a comfortable status quo.

So it feels like we're basically agreeing — "review bombing is bad because Right Wingers do it and doing it therefore makes PC gamers Right Wing. I refuse to engage with the stated motivations and concrete concerns underlying this because I just want all this unseemly disruption to stop" is indeed very closely related in terms of the underlying thought processes to similar right wing grievances about "blue-haired protestors blocking streets" or w/e. It's all reactionary.
This is the most insane post I've read in this thread, congratulations.
 

CheapJi

Member
Apr 24, 2018
2,487
1. I am not comparing the multiplayer mode of Ghost of Tsushima to Helldivers 2, and it being good or bad doesn't matter. The requirement is there to access a part of the content being sold.
2. People would have known about the PlayStation account linking if the requirement was enforced and not disabled after the servers blew up.
3. The function was working and applied during launch. It was actually in place and at the beginning users had to go through account linking to be able to play. The skip was added after the fact. As a measurement to help stabilize the servers and the game.
I'm not claiming it wouldn't have ended up with a different reaction if they had it from the start (I know it was there for a brief period), I'm just saying for whatever reason it didn't stick for long (even if it was there at launch only) and that still makes it a hugely different scenario for Tsushima. Which I feel like is exactly what you are saying as well so we are just saying the same thing lol.
 

Sir Lucan

Member
Dec 19, 2023
782
It's not, at all. The amount of different trainings we had when I was in the banking world about customer service and nailing down the point that the person who had anything from a decent to stellar meal at a restaurant is less likely to say a word than the person who had a hair in their soup is like X:1 with the X being negative. It's just how people work.
But after taking that into account there's still value in those reviews.

I know the system often sucks, I was disappointed after looking at Eiyuden Chronicle's reviews and seeing a lot of people cry about the translation after something they saw on twitter. But still, in general, they are useful when you're deciding whether to buy something. If you see a game with Overwhelmingly Positive reviews for example, you know the game is probably great. If you see Mixed, it's a sign you need to read the reviews and see what the problems are.

I just don't understand why some people here are singling out Steam reviews as a problem, when it's the same as everywhere else. At least they require you to own the game on their store, there are sites like Metacritic that don't even have that filter.
 

Arukado

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,362
A not-insignificant chunk of this forum continues to diss Steam Reviews, and I can't understand why.
Because they consider complaints to be a threat.

I'm going a bit offtopic with this one, but many people has been led to believe in recent years that any opinion that doesn't abide by their exact same ideals is a threat, hence the generalizations and the demonization of any avenue that allows some type of disruption.
 

Chucker

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,380
Maryland
But after taking that into account there's still value in those reviews.

I know the system often sucks, I was disappointed after looking at Eiyuden Chronicle's reviews and seeing a lot of people cry about the translation after something they saw on twitter. But still, in general, they are useful when you're deciding whether to buy something. If you see a game with Overwhelmingly Positive reviews for example, you know the game is probably great. If you see Mixed, it's a sign you need to read the reviews and see what the problems are.

I just don't understand why some people here are singling out Steam reviews as a problem, when it's the same as everywhere else. At least they require you to own the game on their store, there are sites like Metacritic that don't even have that filter.

Exactly. I trust those reviews more than a guy at an outlet that may or may not like said genre that they have to cover for said review. Same as looking at an audience average vs critic average on films (Although I guess the same can be said and anybody can write anything there just like meta).
 

EvaUnit787

Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,378
I don't supprot Sony or anything, but I just find scummy those who didn't have an issue with signing in to OSN and still refunded.
You fishing for a tag or something?
What does that mean? Am I gonna get branded for an opinion people don't like? That is shit and bully bullshit.

I just don't like people abusing the refund over not wanting to sign in to PSN. You're in a country that didn't have PSN then yeah you deserve the full refund. You are in a country that has PSN, played dozens of hours and refunds the game over this? You suck.
 

Doc Kelso

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,201
NYC
I don't supprot Sony or anything, but I just find scummy those who didn't have an issue with signing in to OSN and still refunded.

What does that mean? Am I gonna get branded for an opinion people don't like? That is shit and bully bullshit.

I just don't like people abusing the refund over not wanting to sign in to PSN. You're in a country that didn't have PSN then yeah you deserve the full refund. You are in a country that has PSN, played dozens of hours and refunds the game over this? You suck.
Except it worked.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,572
I don't supprot Sony or anything, but I just find scummy those who didn't have an issue with signing in to OSN and still refunded.

What does that mean? Am I gonna get branded for an opinion people don't like? That is shit and bully bullshit.

I just don't like people abusing the refund over not wanting to sign in to PSN. You're in a country that didn't have PSN then yeah you deserve the full refund. You are in a country that has PSN, played dozens of hours and refunds the game over this? You suck.
Why would people suck for doing what a community manager employed by the Developer itself suggested?
 
Jan 1, 2024
1,474
Midgar
I just don't like people abusing the refund over not wanting to sign in to PSN. You're in a country that didn't have PSN then yeah you deserve the full refund. You are in a country that has PSN, played dozens of hours and refunds the game over this? You suck.
Game that was working fine stopped working without jumping through a hoop. Well in their right to refund imo.
 

EvaUnit787

Member
Aug 6, 2023
1,378
Why would people suck for doing what a community manager employed by the Developer itself suggested?
That is good and all. I am happy they changed their tune. I have zero issue and think it is good for the game they changed their tune.

My only issue is with people that played dozens or hundreds of hours, had access to just sign in to PSN like I did day 1, and still chose to refund the game. Those people are scummy in my book. I have not issues with no one else and no support for Sony or negative opinion about them removing the requirement.

That nuanced view should not be hard to understand IMO. People that abuse the refund system suck.

Game that was working fine stopped working without jumping through a hoop. Well in their right to refund imo.
If you had access to create a PSN account and refunded that sucks. It is abusing the refunds IMO.
 

Lashley

<<Tag Here>>
Member
Oct 25, 2017
60,603
At what point do I say that it is the entire community? In the Ghost of Tsushima Steam forums some users talk about it. There is a good chance that what was seen with Helldivers 2 will end up being repeated next week.
This wasn't one or two people who did this with Helldivers. So for it to happen to GoT you're insinuating it's a large enough number to make a difference.

When in reality it's a few losers on a forum who cry about sjw and woke shit.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,572
That is good and all. I am happy they changed their tune. I have zero issue and think it is good for the game they changed their tune.

My only issue is with people that played dozens or hundreds of hours, had access to just sign in to PSN like I did day 1, and still chose to refund the game. Those people are scummy in my book. I have not issues with no one else and no support for Sony or negative opinion about them removing the requirement.

That nuanced view should not be hard to understand IMO. People that abuse the refund system suck.
Right but to put it another way and draw from an actual scenario someone on Era was actually in: if you were in England, playing with your friend group where one person was in the Isle of Man and another in Guernsey, and this change meant both of them were losing access to the game, why was it an "abuse of the refund system" for the one person in the group left in England to ask for a refund when Steam explicitly waived the time requirement in all countries AND an employee of the developer themselves suggested that asking for a refund in scenarios like that?

It's not that your nuanced view is hard to understand, it's just that it seems like it's lacking a lot of nuance and painting with an overly broad brush.
 

BlackLagoon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,808
Right but to put it another way and draw from an actual scenario someone on Era was actually in: if you were in England, playing with your friend group where one person was in the Isle of Man and another in Guernsey, and this change meant both of them were losing access to the game, why was it an "abuse of the refund system" for the one person in the group left in England to ask for a refund when Steam explicitly waived the time requirement in all countries AND an employee of the developer themselves suggested that asking for a refund in scenarios like that?
In your scenario any loss of access to the game would completely be due to the refunds, as Isle of Man and Guernsey are UK territories and do have official PSN support and should never have been blocked on Steam in the first place.
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,700
That is good and all. I am happy they changed their tune. I have zero issue and think it is good for the game they changed their tune.

My only issue is with people that played dozens or hundreds of hours, had access to just sign in to PSN like I did day 1, and still chose to refund the game. Those people are scummy in my book. I have not issues with no one else and no support for Sony or negative opinion about them removing the requirement.

That nuanced view should not be hard to understand IMO. People that abuse the refund system suck.


If you had access to create a PSN account and refunded that sucks. It is abusing the refunds IMO.
For a guy advocating nuance, you're the one throwing the word "abuse" and "scummy" when Steam allowed for refund extensions, the devs recommended doing it, and Sony themselves admitted this was all a mistake.

What part of that is abuse? All parties seem in agreement on the situation.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,572
In your scenario any loss of access to the game would completely be due to the refunds, as Isle of Man and Guernsey are UK territories and do have official PSN support and should never have been blocked on Steam in the first place.
So is the assertion here that they're "scum" if they take a refund that Steam and Arrowhead both agreed they should take if it's partially under a misapprehension created by (presumably) Sony incorrectly marking some territories as blocked in Steam, or are they not "scum"?

I just don't see where nuance is coming in when the developer and the store OK'd a refund, the publisher seems to be screwing up territory blocking and creating all kinds of confusion about who's still going to be able to play the game in places like Guernsey and Puerto Rico and and and, and we're putting all the responsibility on individual consumers and calling their actions the "scummy" ones.
 

BlackLagoon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,808
So is the assertion here that they're "scum" if they take a refund that Steam and Arrowhead both agreed they should take if it's partially under a misapprehension created by (presumably) Sony incorrectly marking some territories as blocked in Steam, or are they not "scum"?
I have not called anyone scum.

I just don't see where nuance is coming in when the developer and the store OK'd a refund, the publisher seems to be screwing up territory blocking and creating all kinds of confusion about who's still going to be able to play the game in places like Guernsey and Puerto Rico and and and, and we're putting all the responsibility on individual consumers and calling their actions the "scummy" ones.
We don't know who did the territory blocking. And given how long it seems to be taking to solve it, it seems more and more likely it was Valve.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,572
I have not called anyone scum.
That's the context of the post you replied to. I was asking why it was scummy for a user in that situation to take a refund. You replied to tell me the Steam territory changes were a mistake wrt the specific territories in my example — but I don't see how that significantly changes the question I was asking.

We can replace the specific countries if you want — a US player was playing with a group of friends in the Philippines. They're all losing access. Why would it be scummy for the US player to refund, a refund ok'd by Steam and Arrowhead, in that scenario.
 

LumberPanda

Member
Feb 3, 2019
6,535
Other than people buying the game, putting in 0.01 hours, and leaving a review, this isn't "review bombing" any more than a big update generating lots of new positive reviews.

They announced an update to the product which negatively affects the functionality of the product. Whether it impacts you directly (you cannot make a PSN account in your country; or people you play with cannot make a PSN account) or indirectly (you don't want to have to register for yet another capitalist megacorp tracking service for a product you didn't need the account for before), that's fully worthy of a negative review at this time.

Conflating this with Right Wingism is fucking weird and gross. User reviews are there so they can review the product. This is a fundamental function of the product. It's Sony's/Arrowhead's job to make something you want to review positively and recommend, it's not your job to make sure their feelings aren't hurt when they don't do their job.
 

BlackLagoon

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,808
That's the context of the post you replied to. I was asking why it was scummy for a user in that situation to take a refund. You replied to tell me the Steam territory changes were a mistake wrt the specific territories in my example — but I don't see how that significantly changes the question I was asking.
I replied to point out to you with you example you were spreading misinformation, using a players that ironically were harmed directly by the refund campaign that claimed to be supporting them. If you want an answer from EvaUnit787 you should ask them, not me.
 

senj

Member
Nov 6, 2017
4,572
I replied to point out to you with you example you were spreading misinformation, using a players that ironically were harmed directly by the refund campaign that claimed to be supporting them. If you want an answer from EvaUnit787 you should ask them, not me.
… I did ask them?

I dunno why you think "literally relating a thing someone else said happened to them" is "misinformation", or what the point of replying to a conversation you don't seem to have actually read and insist you don't want to participate in was, but I'm just gonna ignore and move on with my life. Have a good one.
 

Dekim

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,343
Unsurprising. Doesn't matter how right they were. Publically telling people to review bomb your employer's main product is very easy grounds for termination.
 

Giolon

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,161
Telling people to request refunds and review bomb the game wasn't a good idea I guess.
Except it was the right place to do it (probably more the refunds than the review bombs). People were coming into the Discord and abusing the developers. He told them where to focus their energy to be properly heard.

Shame he paid the price for it, as last night he was relieved that he was only almost fired.

Even though your title might have "Community" or "Customer" in it, it's still the company that pays you, and if you make the company upset, that's a pretty much the end of the line, even if you're doing what your job description says.
 

Gunny T Highway

Unshakable Resolve - One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
17,166
Canada

Even though it was the obvious right thing to do to get Sony's attention I am not shocked he got terminated. It is hard to justify keeping an employee that told consumers to refund and review a product of theirs into oblivion. Especially when I am sure Sony could go after him for much worse.
 

Saucycarpdog

Member
Oct 25, 2017
16,700
Not surprising, but still sad nonetheless.

And in the end he was right. The only way to get Sony's attention is through refunds (and the irony should be obvious to anyone familiar with PS's refund policy)
 

texhnolyze

Shinra Employee
Member
Oct 25, 2017
23,441
Indonesia

Not all heroes wear capes.

icegif-552.gif
 

bezuzu

Member
May 3, 2023
515
Telling people to request refunds and review bomb the game wasn't a good idea I guess.

Same people applauding him now were upset with him 1 day earlier for calling them lazy and not wanting to spend 2 mins to sign up for PSN...he's clearly not experienced enough for such a position
 
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Oct 25, 2017
9,550
If that CM had only done that I'd be on his side. Just honestly wasn't a good fit for the role got upset with the community a lot and would seemingly overshare info which only added confusion. At times acted more like a leaker than a community manager. It felt like no one in their community team would talk to one and other about what they should say.
 

rzks21

Member
Aug 17, 2023
2,174
For a guy advocating nuance, you're the one throwing the word "abuse" and "scummy" when Steam allowed for refund extensions, the devs recommended doing it, and Sony themselves admitted this was all a mistake.

What part of that is abuse? All parties seem in agreement on the situation.

Lol yes, totally not invested into the situation amirite? Some people take the rights of corporations way too seriously. "Abuse", oof.
 

orangebalt

Member
Jan 3, 2020
55
We're still learning what is best for PC players and your feedback has been invaluable.
Such BS. It's not like Sony is new to the PC gaming space. Back to the late 90s, they created a whole subsidiary (Sony Online Entertainment) focused on online PC games. It's not like it was a failed experiment either. They put out tons of successful games over the years (before SOE was sold off and renamed). Helldivers 1 was released on PC way back in 2015 too. This whole "We're new to this, so go easy on us" vibe is annoying.

Still no return to the stores.
What do you mean?
 
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dex3108

Member
Oct 26, 2017
23,014
Such BS. It's not like Sony is new to the PC gaming space. Back to the late 90s, they created a whole subsidiary (Sony Online Entertainment) focused on online PC games. It's not like it was a failed experiment either. They put out tons of successful games over the years (before SOE was sold off and renamed). Helldivers 1 was released on PC way back in 2015 too. This whole "We're new to this, so go easy on us" vibe is annoying.


What do you mean?

They have yet to reinstate game on stores where they removed it few days ago.