Jonneh

Good Vibes Gaming
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
4,538
UK
We've been getting a lot of posts concerned about Game Freak recently and I would like to remind people that only last year they shipped a whole new generation of Pokemon that went far beyond the ambitions and innovations of any other game in the series. Yes, they released some iterative titles this year with Ultra Sun and Ultra Moon but they're also hard at work on Gen 8 for Switch. If you don't want US/UM then don't buy them. They still offer more than say Yellow/Crystal/Emerald/Platinum ever did.

Anyway rant over, here are the highlights of Sun and Moon:

1. Gyms were replaced with Island Trials
The structure of any Pokemon RPG is to go around the region battling 8 gym leaders all whilst saving the world inbetween, right? Well Sun and Moon actually completely did away with gyms and instead had you completing varied and distinctive island tasks that went far beyond the typical gym formula. They even culminate in a boss battle of sorts against Totem Pokemon which gives each one an epic flare.
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totem2.jpg


2. Pokemon were further integrated into the world
The Alola region has better world building than any other Pokemon location. The humans and pocket monsters truly reside together and this is showcased right from the get go with your family's pet Meowth. Then as you walk outside you'll see Wingulls flapping in the distance. In towns you'll see Pokemon roaming around with their trainers and you'll even see them labouring together. Pokemon has always been a series about the relationship between Pokemon and their trainers and never has this been highlighted more than with Sun and Moon.
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3. HM's are completely gone
We've all had a team of 5 strong Pokemon and one weak HM slave who knows Cut. Don't deny it. It seems Game Freak were fully aware of that and they found a far more elegant solution: Poké Ride. At any moment you can instantly call a Lapras to surf on, a Charizard to fly, a Machamp to use strength...you get the idea. These creatures aren't yours to use in battle but rather they're assistance Pokemon - so they don't take up any spots in your party. The HM system was somewhat flawed from conception and forced you to carry around certain Pokemon regardless if you actually wanted them in your team.
machampride.jpg


4. The series went further with 3D space
X and Y took baby steps into the third dimension but we were still limited to an 8 directional plane when walking around. In Sun and Moon not only can you walk around freely but the approach to level design has been completely overhauled to fit its new 3D environments. Areas are way more open than before and you may also notice the art style has drastically changed from the chibi look of X and Y. This full 3D setting allows for some beautiful cinematic swoops and while the camera is still fixed, it rarely resembles the top down of previous games.
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5. It introduced Ultra Beasts
Most of Sun and Moon's refinements are in the overworld but here they made a pretty big change to the fundamentals of Pokemon. Ultra Beasts are basically legendary Pokemon but from another dimension. Some may look pretty wacky but it creates a new feeling of wonder. You never quite know what the Ultra Beasts are going to be and it makes their battles more exciting than your typical Legendary Pokemon. They also took Sun and Moon's story in interesting places.
nihilego-ow.jpg


This is really just scratching the surface. Feel free to share your favourite aspects of Pokemon Sun and Moon and what you appreciate about them. Maybe you didn't like some of the changes they made? Let that be heard too!
 

Ehoavash

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 28, 2017
7,278
I wanted to like sun and moon but man did the amount of never ending tutorials just hammered my experience so much.

I didn't finish the game but helped my little brother with the end game

Ultra beasts are really cool though but im still kinda confused on how to rank them compared to legendary Pokemons. Kinda don't get why they aren't considered" legendaries "
 
Oct 27, 2017
9,792
Peru
Yeah, they definitely did, that's why they're some of my favorite versions in a while (I barely even bothered with X and Y).

That being said, I don't think that Game Freak will make a similar jump for the next entry. Is just too soon and they're just too slow.
 

Diamond0892

Member
Nov 10, 2017
44
Good list. I would include also Z-moves, since they add a new layer in strategic planning.

Although I recognise that Trials are something fresh... I still feel that some of them were extremely simple (like the Fire and Electric ones, I felt a bit disappointed). Also, Totem Pokémon are good, but I expected to battle the "Trial Leaders", to call them some way... For example, in the first Trial, you have to fight against the "leader". Why didn't they do it for the others?

Especially, what was a huge shock for me was the Fairy "leader". She was like "I'm supposed to give you a Trial... but I'm not in the mood", XD!
 

Gartooth

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,440
I completely agree about Island Trials and HMs. I also liked the Alolan Pokemon but I wish they got more love. Same with Ultra Beasts which I wish were surprises scattered through the game rather than being a post game quest with little difficulty.

They are welcome changes, but I'm getting perpetually annoyed by the increasing linearity in world design and the increase in time spent on narrative. That really detracted from my enjoyment of the game and is the biggest put-off on Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon for me.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,553
2. Pokemon were further integrated into the world
The Alola region has better world building than any other Pokemon location. The humans and pocket monsters truly reside together and this is showcased right from the get go with your family's pet Meowth. Then as you walk outside you'll see Wingulls flapping in the distance. In towns you'll see Pokemon roaming around with their trainers and you'll even see them labouring together. Pokemon has always been a series about the relationship between Pokemon and their trainers and never has this been highlighted more than with Sun and Moon.
51.jpg


5. It introduced Ultra Beasts
Most of Sun and Moon's refinements are in the overworld but here they made a pretty big change to the fundamentals of Pokemon. Ultra Beasts are basically legendary Pokemon but from another dimension. Some may look pretty wacky but it creates a new feeling of wonder. You never quite know what the Ultra Beasts are going to be and it makes their battles more exciting than your typical Legendary Pokemon. They also took Sun and Moon's story in interesting places.
nihilego-ow.jpg
I'm not sure how "People owning Pokemon as pets" and "new legendary Pokemon" are advancements for the series.

As someone who loves Totem Pokemon and the removal of HMs, this thread reads like damage control.
 

Deleted member 224

Oct 25, 2017
5,629
I completely agree about Island Trials and HMs. They are welcome changes, but I'm getting perpetually annoyed by the increasing linearity in world design and the increase in time spent on narrative. That really detracted from my enjoyment of the game and is the biggest put-off on Ultra Sun/Ultra Moon for me.
Yeah, it's hard to congratulate Game Freak on their use of 3D space when Sun and Moon are the most linear Pokémon games to date. The region also feels tiny with much less routes.
 

Zen Hero

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,664
Yeah, Sun and Moon were definitely a step in the right direction. Ride Pokemon were such a great addition over HMs. I also really like the new graphics.

One aspect I liked that you didn't mention was the bigger emphasis on story and cinematics. Made it feel more like a regular JRPG. I hope they continue to go down that route and develop the story further.
 

Deleted member 4532

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,936
They still offer more than say Yellow/Crystal/Emerald/Platinum ever did.
Can you elaborate on this? Because the Battle Frontier alone is way more than the watered down Battle Factory in USUM.
As for SM, yeah, I thought they were good games last year. Doing away with HMs is one of GF's best ideas in a long time.
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,494
I've come to appreciate Sun and Moon a lot more in the recent weeks. I still painfully miss the traditional Gym progression of all previous games. Trials just didn't do it for me. The last island feels rushed as fuck (at least in SuMo, I guess in Ultra SuMo things are a bit better).

Also, Hau is the worst. I've said it before, I'll say it again as many times as needed.
 

Gartooth

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,440
Yeah, it's hard to congratulate Game Freak on their use of 3D space when Sun and Moon are the most linear Pokémon games to date. The region also feels tiny with much less routes.

Sad part is that it's not just how the routes connect the world together which has been getting dumbed down since Gen 5. The layouts themselves of routes and caves is absolutely boring because the developers are terrified of players getting lost.
 

Terraforce

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
18,954
Eh, I'm not sure how drastic those changes really are, and Trials were a cool gimmick for Gen 7 but I doubt they'll return in the future. Points 3 and 4 are the only really notable ones, and 4 was inevitable, as S/M isn't even the first fully 3D Pokemon we've played. This is also not to mention the major backsteps this Gen took from previous Gens.

But I would add to that list the Poke Pelago. Such a unique concept that can really be a game changer. Feels a lot more accomplishing than the plain old PC or even the Pokemon DAycare services.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,553
Can you elaborate on this? Because the Battle Frontier alone is way more than the watered down Battle Factory in USUM.
As for SM, yeah, I thought they were good games last year. Doing away with HMs is one of GF's best ideas in a long time.
It's funny, I had long suggested removing HMs and replacing them with key items (for example, replacing Surf with a raft), and then ride Pokemon showed an even better solution.

I've come to appreciate Sun and Moon a lot more in the recent weeks. I still painfully miss the traditional Gym progression of all previous games. Trials just didn't do it for me. The last island feels rushed as fuck (at least in SuMo, I guess in Ultra SuMo things are a bit better).
The fourth and third islands both feel like a massive downgrade from the first and second. Pokemon variety takes a nosedive and there are barely any new Pokemon.
 

Deleted member 5535

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,656
Maybe these changes were the motive for why I was able to play and beat this game. I really loved that game and I was never a fan of Pokemon at all after playing a bunch of them.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
30,300
1 and 3 were nice, although the trials weren't as satisfying to beat as gyms were. 2 and 5 are nothing special, especially considering the series has done a better job of integrating Pokemon in the world before, see HG/SS. To be honest the good changes only made the old structural elements that they didn't change more obvious and annoying. I hope they push for more improvements like these and bigger changes in the next mainline title
 

bye

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,435
Phoenix, AZ
Ultra Beasts like Trials are really just the same concept under new paint. The actual changes they brought to the structure to the game and new gameplay elements were very minimal.

The HM removal was nice of course. Long overdo, but welcome.

The incessitant use of cutscenes and cinematics was a step in the wrong direction given the story has gotten worse in the games since Black/White.

The best idea Sun/Moon had were the Alolan forms, and frankly the direction GameFreak should have gone with new Pokémon ages ago (existing mons with lots of different forms). The fact they didn't add more with the new games was incredibly disappointing.
 

Deleted member 4532

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,936
Ultra Beasts like Trials are really just the same concept under new paint. The actual changes they brought to the structure to the game and new gameplay elements were very minimal.

The HM removal was nice of course. Long overdo, but welcome.

The incessitant use of cutscenes and cinematics was a step in the wrong direction given the story has gotten worse in the games since Black/White.

The best idea Sun/Moon had were the Alolan forms, and frankly the direction GameFreak should have gone with new Pokémon ages ago (existing mons with lots of different forms). The fact they didn't add more with the new games was incredibly disappointing.
This too. This was extremely disappointing when I first read the leaks.
The only thing we can do now is pray that GF doesn't just wave it off as an "Alola only" feature.
 

Nightbird

Avenger
Oct 27, 2017
3,780
Germany
This may be exclusive to USUM, but I do adore seeing wild Pokémon hang out in the overworld.

Even though it's done in the most basic way possible (just have them walk around in areas that are off-limit to the player), it does great things for making the area actually feel like it's inhabited by wild Pokémon.

That's a great plus to me
 

Chamaeleonx

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,348
My biggest problem is, just looking at those screens makes me not want to play it. So many edges, most detail of the texture just vanishes, etc. . =/
You don't even see your own face. xD

HM's could just be basic abilities you gain and not be tied to Pokemon. Never understood why they did that, it looked like purposely gating the world. =/
 

HPH

Member
Oct 25, 2017
449
I really like Pokemon Sun. My last Pokemon title before this was Diamond and I feel there is a fresh approach here, with the removal of gyms and HMs.

I think there's a good foundation to build on here and hopefully we'll see a more fleshed storyline with perhaps more exploration in future entries. The new Pokemon were great for the most part too and the Alolan forms were simply awesome!
 

Neiteio

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,319
Awesome thread! I agree, Sun and Moon were great strides forward for the series. My favorite installments overall. I was especially impressed by the story with Lusamine's family, Guzma, etc. Alola is a wonderful setting.

My only critique is that the tutorial still runs too long. I know they're trying to be as economical in their wording and as organic in their delivery as possible, but it still feels like it takes a while for the training wheels to come off.

But once it gets going, you're golden. Lovely games.
 

Regiruler

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,404
United States
Sun and Moon being improvements from Gen VI doesn't mean Game Freak and TPC are absolved.

USUM's very existence is driven by a manufactured necessity for a yearly title instead of just, you know, updating the games that were already out.
 
Last edited:
Oct 27, 2017
1,610
North Carolina
Looking back on them, I honestly would've rather have had gyms than trials. Like the trials were fine, but they were different means to the same end that weren't particularly more fun than tearing through trainers to get to the leader. Going forward, I'd like to see them massively step up their game on gym puzzles instead of doing something entirely different. They'd feel fresher if they all weren't so straight forward, or in some cases, existed in the first place.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,553
There are plenty of things that Sun and Moon do right. For example, every new Pokemon or form has a distinct typing, statline, signature move, or ability, so basically every new Pokemon has a point.

That matters a lot more to me than "Your mom has a Meowth" (which isn't even the first time the protagonist's mother had a pet Pokemon) and "The legendaries look weird."
 

Deleted member 2793

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
15,368
SM is legit. After XY and ORAS I was disappointed with the franchise, but SM had a nice campaign, good presentation and some few things I enjoyed a lot (Ultra Beasts, Battle Royal, etc).

I'll say that Trials and Totem Pokémon are just bad and can't replace the gyms. I need meaningful boss battles and the trials were more like jokes, the Totem Pokémon could be easily oneshotted with the right Pokémon and a z-move too. Hopefully the gyms are back in Gen 8.
 

Toxi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
17,553
This at least disproves the notion that Game Freak doesn't do anything to evolve the mainline games.
Removing HMs is a basic quality of life change. It's equivalent to Monster Hunter World removing Gathering Quests and making them an optional add-on to hunting quests. It's not a serious evolution to how the game plays.

You want examples of serious evolutions? Items. Double battles. Abilities. Physical/special split. Post game battle facilities. Online play.
 
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Khanimus

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
40,643
Greater Vancouver
I don't think I even got to the first trial before I put the game down.

Every time I have picked up a Pokemon game has been less and less.

Gold/Silver - beat It, loved it
Diamond/Pearl - got the 7th gym or so and stopped
Black/White - got 2 or 3 gyms in and stopped
Sun/Moon - afew hours and just forgot about it.
 

The Last One

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
10,585
I agree with everything said by the OP. It's my favorite Pokémon game and playing Ultra Sun is being amazing even though it's been only a year I have finished OG Sun.
 

Regiruler

Member
Oct 28, 2017
12,404
United States
This at least disproves the notion that Game Freak doesn't do anything to evolve the mainline games.
I'm not that concerned about improvements from generation to generation. If anything the stuff they drop actually annoys me more.
I don't think I even got to the first trial before I put the game down.

Every time I have picked up a Pokemon game has been less and less.

Gold/Silver - beat It, loved it
Diamond/Pearl - got the 7th gym or so and stopped
Black/White - got 2 or 3 gyms in and stopped
Sun/Moon - afew hours and just forgot about it.
Finish Black/White, and play B2/W2. Ideally find someone with a hard mode key.
 

Kyzer

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,711
There are some other good things you didn't mention. Pokepelago for passive EV training, bottlecaps for making any pokemon useable, UI improvements like being able to use a pokeball from the menu and showing type effectiveness. They added a lot of really great things. There are probably more things I'm not remembering at the moment.

However.

They also removed PSS and super training, as well as Dexnav. They have no good way of reaching level 100 even though you need to to use the bottlecaps, constantly block all of your paths instead of letting you explore, and have paltry postgame offerings. Also festival plaza is awful and trials just ended up being worse than gyms. There are probably more things I'm not remembering at the moment.
 

Luchashaq

Banned
Nov 4, 2017
4,329
I can't disagree more with OP.

1. They are different but if anything they were less interesting than typical gyms.
2. This isn't new, there was just more of it.
3. Yay it only took them 15 years of people begging to make this obvious change.
4. I agree despite clearly enjoying it less than you.
5. Ultra Beasts are incredibly lame and functionally no different than a regular pokemon outside of pokedex number and beast balls.
 

MattB

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
2,986
1. Honestly they felt like gyms. I wish they would change them up more.

2. 100% agree.

3. They need to get rid of pokerides. Make it so i can go where ever when ever and gym leaders lvls and Pokemon change based on how many badges I have.

4. It isn't perfect yet. It felt like the gamecube games camera at times.

5. I don't care for them that much myself. Honestly the Alola form imo is the better thing to come out of this gen!
 

Sky

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
97
UK
2. Pokemon were further integrated into the world

Playing omega ruby and they have this addition. Flocks and wingull and swablus :) nice touch indeed. I do miss the secret bases and mining tunnel game in this installment.

I feel they should just allow HM moves as a separate moveslot as to not hinder the 4 move slots. And youre right, HM slaves.. Sorry Zigzagoon :(
 

Gartooth

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
8,440
Remember the days when getting a legendary meant exploring every part of the region and weren't handed out by the narrative or a post game fetch quest?

Ultra Beasts could've been so awesome if you had to find hidden portals and there was some buildup to the encounters with them.
 

Draconian

Chicken Chaser
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,402
I agree with you wholeheartedly OP.

I don't feel like those games have gotten the credit they deserve.