It's funny, I recognized the Sakai armor as Honda Tadakatsu's armor lmao
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Polygon: Ghost of Tsushima, Kurosawa, and the political myth of the samurai
- Thread starter Kalor
- Start date
It's funny, I recognized the Sakai armor as Honda Tadakatsu's armor lmao
You mean the antlers? Yeah kinda. Personally I try to make all my armor look like Sanada's lol.
But those samurai shouldn't even have the concept of bushido in the first place. See, it's not really about historical accuracy or how the game promotes imperialism. It's more that the game should care about what samurai actually were or at the very least understood what Kurosawa was saying about them. As it is, it seems woefully uninterested in its subject matter and ends up reeking of Orientalism.
You can compare and contrast this game with Total War: Three Kingdoms that released last year. That game also takes a mythological look at China, but it's a look that's informed by both history and by the novel. The amount of care for the period stands out and the game looks all the better for it. The comparison is a little unfair since Three Kingdoms does want to be at least somewhat historical, but the fact that it actually cares is sort of the point.
People know what they're exposed to, and most people aren't exposed to accurate historical records.
Look at the American south.
Yes, every culture mythologizes their past and sanitizes their heroes, but it's important to think critically about why they may be doing that, and who currently benefits from it.
I don't believe Sucker Punch had any nefarious intent or anything, mind. They're really just doing a pastiche of older media that had the same problems. It's important to have these discussions, though.
I wouldn't use Three Kingdoms as comparison, you have hero generals fighting each other in bouts and they would have forgone the novel if they wanted to be truly authentic.
Although bushido as a term didn't really exist till the edo period, the concept of homare is already extant in the 12th century and mentioned in records of the Genpei war.
The game has two modes: Romance and Records. The Records modes is the historical one. Besides, my point was more about the importance of caring about the material that you're supposed to be depicting. Even if the game was completely fantasy; with magic and dragons and all, it can still feel right if the developers cared about the period in question - verisimilitude being more important than realism.
When I look at the Japanese games that depicts the Samurai in a feudal-ish sorta period, the impression I get is that 'honor' is about loyalty/sacrifice to lord and country, and winning battles.
That's it. You can work around everything else.
That's it. You can work around everything else.
The funny thing about Ghosts of Tsushima is that in the actual Tsushima incident, for the few times that Mongol cavalry and Samurai clashed in the Yuan Empire's aborted invasion of Japan, the Mongols kicked ass. Samurai would ride out for individual combat and get mowed down by Yuan archers.
I get that it's a dramatization far removed from reality, but the myth of the samurai as these ultimate warriors is fascinating because they came up short when measured against outsiders, which was only in the few skirmishes in the attempted Yuan invasion of Japan, as well as Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea in the 1500s.
I get that it's a dramatization far removed from reality, but the myth of the samurai as these ultimate warriors is fascinating because they came up short when measured against outsiders, which was only in the few skirmishes in the attempted Yuan invasion of Japan, as well as Toyotomi Hideyoshi's invasion of Korea in the 1500s.
The samurai did adapt well though, in the second invasion they stopped doing individual charges, built fortifications and basically slaughtered the yuan in their boats at night. They also adapted the bombs for their own use. It wasn't just the typhoon despite popular culture.
Funny thing about bushido being strict codes, the samurai has absolutely no compunction to use whatever methods possible.
Hideyoshi's campaign was rife with politics and corruption no surprise it didn't go well at all.
I don't think this is completely fair. The Japanese did manage to win against the first Mongol invasion (albeit they got really lucky). Admittedly they did so using tactics which would be completely foreign to Ghost, so there is that.
Hideyoshi's invasions were also pretty successful. If not for the Ming intervention, his armies would probably have conquered Korea without too much difficulty. Then again, these were samurai and ashigaru troops with decades of combat experience from the Sengoku and armed with tons of firearms. It's actually a pretty cool dynamic, Koreans with their superior archers and navy, the Japanese with their superior infantry and arquebuses, and the Ming with their superior artillery and cavalry. Too bad nobody would ever use this conflict as a setting.
Bushido didn't even exist until the Edo period, and by then there were no longer any major battles in Japan.
That was what I alluded to in an earlier post. It was basically promoted as a strategy to keep the peace in the Edo period. I was commenting more about how the concept clashes with how media portrays or adopts it.
I don't think they even mention Bushido specifically in the game, although they might have early on. It's mostly just "honor" as in "face your opponents head on", but then you become a Ninja so it's whatever lol.
They went more Assassin's Creed style history than historical war games style history. You're basically a good guy samurai who becomes medieval Japanese Batman running around protecting citizens and shit during a full blown Mongol invasion. I mean if people take that seriously that's they're problem lol.
Yes. I was expanding on your point. It's all the more BS because it's a largely fictional concept.
They don't call it bushido, but there's no mistake that it's what the speeches are all about.
And this is exactly why I think it's fair to say that Ghost is Orientalist.
User Banned (2 Weeks): Dismissive Commentary in a Sensitive Thread
I hear red dead doesn't really take on the historical context of cowboys who were mainly just farmers. Also Mario does a colossal misservice to the plight of plumbers in the Italian American community.
Mama mia!
Mama mia!
Honestly would love more black and hispanic cowboys as main characters than another John Wayne. The entire old west from media is all myth and wasn't as white as they always show. Cowboy was even a derogatory racist term back then to demean PoC cowhands.
I guess my point is; myths are ok for video games. But historically accurate can also be
Check out some of Kurasawa's movies, they are amazing and have much more nuance than you describe. In Yojimbo, the main character is a drunk, corrupt, disloyal samurai. It is funny, entertaining, and has some beautiful swordplay. I can't think of any Kurasawa movie the straight up glamorize the samurai.
Thanks for the correction. I've been intrigued by Toyotomi's invasion of Korea but never learned much about it in depth, do you have a recommended source?
Most samurai in film, at least the most well known films, aren't that at all. The samurai of Kurosawa's films are flawed, or conflict with bushido, or are grey-moral ronin. Other films go even further; the protagonist of Sword of Doom is a sociopathic monster. The protagonist of Harakiri actively fights to destroy and lay bare the hypocrisy of the samurai. Three Outlaw Samurai contrasts a ronin fighting for peasants, one working for a ruthless lord, and one only there for mercenary reasons, and they eventually clash/contrast/join.
And so on. The "perfect protector samurai" is a rarity from what I've seen.
Always think about this when I think about Samurai (learnt about it from Dororo).
Tsujigiri - Wikipedia
en.wikipedia.org
I don't know that much about Japanese history so this is new to me, that's beyond fucked up.
I also just found out about Tameshigiri...
Tameshigiri - Wikipedia
The main issue I see here is that Tsushima (and a lot of western depictions of Samurai) seems to glorify and fall straight into the Samurai myth way more than most actual Japanese media does, especially Kurosawa's movies, which Sucker Punch hold up as a main inspiration behind Tsushima.
I think some like to compare it to the difference between the Athenians and the Spartans during the Peloponnesian war -- the Spartan having the better land army and the Athenians having the better navy.
This is what I'd heard too. The Koreans hold up Admiral Yi as pretty much the main hero of that war, and even in the west he's considered the #1 naval commander of all time.
I think some like to compare it to the difference between the Athenians and the Spartans during the Peloponnesian war -- the Spartan having the better land army and the Athenians having the better navy.
I'd say Creed gets deeper into real historical details than Tsushima does, but ultimately still uses those details a stepping stones for its own fantastical gameplay. Creed just does this at a more granular level.
Thing is in the game this was also touched upon. Many of the samurai you meet are flawed and hyprocritical including Jin himself, and is and intrinsic part of his journey. His thoughts during the hot springs and haiku really pushes this.