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CatDoggo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
775


If you have some time, please, please, please watch this video. Please don't come in here and post a hot take if you're not even going to take the time to even try to understand where autistic people are coming from when it comes to issues like this.

I gotta admit, this video pretty much had me in tears through the whole thing. So much of what she talks about and her experiences is something that I can relate to on a personal level, and I'm sure the same can be said for a lot of other autistic people.

It hurts when regular people will sooner turn to dangerous eugenics rhetoric long before they will ever consider being accepting or accommodating for autistic people. They would sooner consider treating you like something to be eradicated, sooner desire that nobody like you ever exists again long before they would ever consider trying to make life marginally more comfortable for us autistic people to exist in or accept us as we are. They will use 'low functioning' autistic people as a means to talk over us and silence ALL autistic people, ignore that even 'high functioning' autistic people often struggle immensely with various symptoms themselves. At the same time, they dehumanize 'low functioning' autistic people, implying their lives have no value, that they are nothing more than a burden, while ignoring that there are many of them who do communicate their lives both on the internet and off in their own way, and they will happy communicate that their lives have value too in spite of their struggles. It is ugly that society would rather consider us undesirable and a problem to be cured rather than find ways to better support us and the parents who raise us. So much of the animosity particularly toward 'low functioning' autistic people could be alleviated if parents and the autistic person in question were given the support they need to thrive rather than being left dangling in the wind to handle it alone.

What autistic people need is for people to be less judgmental and less gun-ho to shun anyone who seem a little 'off'. We need acceptance, understanding, and kindness. Think a little more before you decide to mock or judge someone for acting differently from the norm, because you don't know their situation. We need less dehumanization and disgust. What we don't need is the constant rhetoric that we're unwanted and a burden to society. That it would be better if we were cured or kept from existing all together. It hurts a lot when people don't even try to pretend like they would rather have you changed or that they would rather have it that you were never born in the first place.

At the end of the day, what so many can't seem to understand is that our autism is heavily ingrained in shaping who we are and our personalities. That if you could simply 'cure' it, we would effectively be altered to such an extent that we would be replaced with someone entirely different. Trying to change who we are would mean destroying us and replacing us with a 'correct' human. And since its looking more and more likely that autism is indeed something that can never be cured, but instead something that can only be managed with proper care and support, the tide is turning to where its being considered better if we were simply kept from existing all together. My condition does not make me suffer, it is a society rejecting autistic people and leaving us to struggle alone and without support that is causing us to suffer.

At the end of the day, we need people to stop speaking over us and our experiences. It's this constant discounting of our lived experiences, often by using other autistic people who can't necessarily speak for themselves, as a means to silence us. It's helping to cause this frightening shift where it's slowly being decided that it might be better for us to not exist at all. So many of us are left isolated and unable to find help or the support we need, and rather than work to improve that, people would prefer to just double down on dangerous rhetoric. Our disorder doesn't mean that we don't deserve to exist or that we would be better off never being born. We are different, not broken, and our lives have just as much value as anyone. If you are not autistic, think before you talk about these matters and how hurtful and potentially dangerous propagating these ideas are for us.
 

UnluckyKate

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,673
In many developped countries, you can detect and abort pregnancies in case of severe handicaps detected early.
 

Z-Beat

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
31,974
The fucked up implication is that when people talk about how they cured it with some weird alternative medicine or drinking bleach (yeah, that happened), they're usually treating autism like a fate worse than death.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,654
This is common practice in a lot of countries to be honest. Denmark has basically nobody with Down's Syndrome because they abort such pregnancies.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
45,020
I still struggle to interact with people. Its been a catalyst along with chronic depression which really made life extremely difficult to where making it through each day is very tough. Having been abused and rejected so much of my life for things I can't help, hearing people talk about how I shouldn't have existed just feels like an extra invisible gun to my head.
 

game-biz

Member
Oct 25, 2017
4,822
Many greats in history were austistic. Newton in particular undoubtedly was high functioning. I know you're not disputing that, op, I just thought I'd point it out.

The world is built for the majority, but hopefully people will be less ignorant as time goes by....
 

Deleted member 31817

Nov 7, 2017
30,876
I don't understand how you could possibly make the decision to abort someone if they're autistic (beyond being morally reprehensible ofc) considering afaik it can't even be diagnosed until around 3-4 years of age at the earliest.

Abortions due to medical complications should hopefully only be done if the child is going to suffer through debilitating physical circumstances/illnesses that would make their life extremely short/full of suffering.
 

Cenauru

Dragon Girl Supremacy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,157
I don't really have much else to add to this other than that I'm tired of living my life around making sure I don't show my autism instead of people becoming more accepting of people with mental disabilities. It's exhausting and the combination of aspergers and ADHD has been very rough on my life, I already feel like I'm burning out and I'm only 23. Currently in the process of trying to get a mental health therapist because of it. I really wish people would educate themselves, instead of advocating that we should be dead/ "cured" because they don't want to deal with us. It's always about them, never about us.
 
Oct 25, 2017
2,722
Can you even detect autism when they're in the womb?

No. Nor anti-social personality disorder which probably would be a much better reason to abort for non-medical reasons.

Like the old "if only the Hitlers had used protection" gags.

equating autism with a hard medical problem is eugenic crap, and should not be given a public platform. Remember, the Holocaust started in hospitals, dehumanizing and ultimately killing "the undesired" is very much a core fascist proposal.
 

Amalthea

Member
Dec 22, 2017
5,747
I think the only neurological condition that would deserve to be aborted are psychopaths. The one neurological anomaly that cause death and harm for millions. Instead we make them our kings, rulers or bosses who then order us to shun, maim and destroy the helpless and needful including all handicapped people.
 

JonnyDBrit

God and Anime
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,201
Can you even detect autism when they're in the womb?

Right now, no. Currently we don't know what precise genetic markers there are, and so still rely on behavioural analysis to determine the condition.

But.

That information is stored somewhere in my body. If not autism itself, then whatever odd addition, subtraction, or mutation to the string of my DNA that enables my autism to develop. And the moment that such is identified - and there is a lot of work being put into finding it - then pandora''s box is open.

It's a frustrating catch 22. If and when such information becomes available, you can't really deny anyone with a womb the right to have access to it. Not only would it be compromising bodily autonomy to do so, but if they were so inclined to keep the child anyway, it could help them be ready for how to support someone with the condition. Same as with any other. But ultimately I expect that, unless society at large changes its expectations and default level of support, the majority of people provided such information would undoubtedly opt to not have to deal with it. Same as with Down's syndrome, which people already readily accept for fairly obvious reason.
 
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CatDoggo

CatDoggo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
775
Can you even detect autism when they're in the womb?

That's unfortunately where a lot of money is going now. As was said in the video, these funds could go toward researching ways to help non-verbal autistic people in finding ways to possibly bridge that gap between body and mind that is disconnected for them. It's something that many autistic people are advocating for. It's what's so frustrating about foundations like Autism Speaks using the money donated to them to try and find a cure-all that will never exist and now genetic screenings, but do nothing to fund research meant to help manage severe symptoms.
 

Cheapstare

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
530
You should be able to abort for whatever reason you see fit, including mental handicaps. If it's not your body you don't get a say in it.
 
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CatDoggo

CatDoggo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
775
I still struggle to interact with people. Its been a catalyst along with chronic depression which really made life extremely difficult to where making it through each day is very tough. Having been abused and rejected so much of my life for things I can't help, hearing people talk about how I shouldn't have existed just feels like an extra invisible gun to my head.

You know, I find it a little funny that for as much as we've disagreed about Pokemon stuff these last few months, I really relate to what you're talking about. The older I get, the more it feels like my depression and social anxiety are winning out. I don't really have a support network of friends or family to fall back on either. It really is no wonder that the average lifespan of someone who is autistic is barley 36 years due to high suicide rates. The lack of support and social rejection really gets to you after awhile.
 

lvl 99 Pixel

Member
Oct 25, 2017
45,020
You know, I find it a little funny that for as much as we've disagreed about Pokemon stuff these last few months, I really relate to what you're talking about. The older I get, the more it feels like my depression and social anxiety are winning out. I don't really have a support network of friends or family to fall back on either. It really is no wonder that the average lifespan of someone who is autistic is barley 36 years due to high suicide rates. The lack of support and social rejection really gets to you after awhile.

I don't really remember what happened but Pokemon was one of the few things reminding me that its not all bad (along with Smash Bros which also unfortunately attracts comparable pettiness) but I've stayed out of the main threads and given up on the IP because its just too stressful to be around. My mind correlates everything negative and kind of echoes in a way that's inseparable, and almost impossible to explain.

Even with support groups it still feels like total isolation most of the time and social workers seem to rather mess around on their tablet than anything. I should complain to the health board about that kind of thing but at the same time it just feels like the universe just gives no fucks so why should I.

Anyway, that video in the OP is a very tough watch.
 

Nida

Member
Aug 31, 2019
11,401
Everett, Washington
I still struggle to interact with people. Its been a catalyst along with chronic depression which really made life extremely difficult to where making it through each day is very tough. Having been abused and rejected so much of my life for things I can't help, hearing people talk about how I shouldn't have existed just feels like an extra invisible gun to my head.


You know, I find it a little funny that for as much as we've disagreed about Pokemon stuff these last few months, I really relate to what you're talking about. The older I get, the more it feels like my depression and social anxiety are winning out. I don't really have a support network of friends or family to fall back on either. It really is no wonder that the average lifespan of someone who is autistic is barley 36 years due to high suicide rates. The lack of support and social rejection really gets to you after awhile.

If either of you want a friend just send me a message. I'd be glad to talk with you.

This goes for anyone.
 
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CatDoggo

CatDoggo

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
775
I don't really remember what happened but Pokemon was one of the few things reminding me that its not all bad (along with Smash Bros which also unfortunately attracts comparable pettiness) but I've stayed out of the main threads and given up on the IP because its just too stressful to be around. My mind correlates everything negative and kind of echoes in a way that's inseparable, and almost impossible to explain.

Even with support groups it still feels like total isolation most of the time and social workers seem to rather mess around on their tablet than anything. I should complain to the health board about that kind of thing but at the same time it just feels like the universe just gives no fucks so why should I.

Anyway, that video in the OP is a very tough watch.

Honestly? If you want to play the new Pokemon games, just play them and don't let the negativity get to you, especially if you're avoiding discussion around it now anyway. It sucks for me because the direction Pokemon is going in is one that I don't want to support, but it was very much that one constant in my life that was always a happy one until now. If it's something that still brings you joy, I'd say go for it and don't let anyone tell you otherwise.
 

Prax

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,764
I know a few autistic people themselves who have mused with these eugenic thoughts because their own lives were so hard. Autism has some genetic component (especially if it's a "disorder of high intelligence" like research has linked to), so it's very likely people with children on the spectrum are themselves on the spectrum, and it's one long chain of being failed or unable to handle living in the world that is made for the majority.

I think things will get better over time, but considering we as humans have difficulty accommodating even neurotypical people who happen to be different (poor, poc, female), we have a long ways to go. I think you can judge the progress of humanity via how well it treats its most vulnerable, so if someone is looking for the "point" of a "unproductive and vulnerable person" for existing, maybe that's the point. To be unable to nuture their existence is a severe indictment on our ethical standards, infrastructure, and progress.

I don't think autism something you can cure either unless you're just going to eliminate all the factors that lead to high/focused/specialized intelligence. Doesn't seem like that'd be a good idea--though clearly, people act on a lot of bad ideas.

I myself enjoy or made peace with most of the quirks of autism I do have and would not like to be deleted. I think some of the best people I know are on the spectrum and also don't want them to be deleted even if their lives were very difficult or are a struggle. So to all of you struggling, know that your existence is valuable and makes humanity as a whole better and whill continue to force humanity to become even better. We may not have asked to be explicitly born this way, but we're here now and we're going to make the best of it!
 

MegaMix

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Oct 27, 2017
786
User Banned (Permanent): Ableist Rhetoric; Prior Severe Ban for Downplaying Sexism and Racism
As someone who has worked in the mental health industry...I completely agree.
 
Oct 27, 2017
3,654
Can you even detect autism when they're in the womb?

No absolutely not. You can detect some chromosomal conditions and the scans can get very detailed on anatomy. My sons have been healthy in the womb (which I am immensely thankful for) so didn't have to get tests done beyond that. There are some invasive tests that can be done in some circumstances but again not for autism. For at least the first 6 weeks of life babies have absolutely no personality, are not responsive at all, there's no way to tell.
 

Xando

Member
Oct 28, 2017
27,835
I never heard this about autistic children but i know people who have decided for a abortion if the child has been diagnosed with other disabilities like down syndrome
 

Deleted member 56909

User requested account closure
Banned
May 21, 2019
446
underwater
As someone who's autistic I fucking detest organizations like autism speaks for spreading this vile rhetoric and hate mongering. I'm a fairly intelligent person and alot of autistic folks are that said autistic folks need alot more nurturing and specialized programs that deal with autism since many would feel like passing the buck in alot of cases.
 

Parcas

Member
Dec 12, 2017
1,742
I do not feel is a bad thing if as parents you can know in advance this kind of thing and abort in some conditions is their choice you get to decide if you want or not to have a baby.
 

Chopchop

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,171
A lot of autistic traits can't even be diagnosed for sure until around 3 or so. Before then it's hard to tell if a kid is exhibiting autistic traits or is just shy/uncomfortable around the doctor or something.
 

subpar spatula

Refuses to Wash his Ass
Member
Oct 26, 2017
22,194
What's your position on female infanticide - the process of aborting girls - that seems to be popular in portions of the world where having a daughter is seen as a burden?
Aborting girls isn't female infanticide, female infanticide is killing newborns. You're looking for sex-selective abortion which is vastly different.

Regarding abortions, that's tricky. If the mother wants an abortion, you don't really have a say in why she wants to. You can't morally guilt them into having a child for any reason even if it's based on bigotry, oppression, etc. However, if it's another party IE the father who wants to abort the girl for the sake of it being a girl then it's a problem. It still falls onto the mother to decide.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,628
There are definitely conditions that are a burden I wouldn't want to and wouldn't feel confident to bear that often do an should continue to allow late stage abortions if detected. Autism isn't one of them however
 

Ac30

Member
Oct 30, 2017
14,527
London
What's your position on female infanticide - the process of aborting girls - that seems to be popular in portions of the world where having a daughter is seen as a burden?

For purely societal reasons it should be outlawed or you're going to end up with an entire generation of men who can't find partners. In many places you can't have an abortion for non-medical reasons after 3 months, which is before you can determine sex via ultrasound to try and prevent this.

It's really not comparable to choosing to abort a child with a disability, although putting Autism on the same level as Down's is absurd.
 

Elynn

Member
Oct 28, 2017
3,039
Brittany, France
There are definitely conditions that are a burden I wouldn't want to and wouldn't feel confident to bear that often do an should continue to allow late stage abortions if detected. Autism isn't one of them however
Autism is a spectrum and in the most severe cases it can absolutely be hell for everyone involved.
It's not detectable in the womb though so it's a moot discussion.
 

Omegamon

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,884
You can't be pro choice if you start making exceptions, sorry.

Regarding abortions, that's tricky. If the mother wants an abortion, you don't really have a say in why she wants to. You can't morally guilt them into having a child for any reason even if it's based on bigotry, oppression, etc. However, if it's another party IE the father who wants to abort the girl for the sake of it being a girl then it's a problem. It still falls onto the mother to decide.

All of this
 

Cenauru

Dragon Girl Supremacy
Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,157
it's pointless to talk about aborting an autistic baby because it's literally impossible to detect right now. It's completely unrelated from the main point of the thread.

"I'd rather have a dead kid than an autistic one" is what we hear from this, the fear and rampant misinformation and lack of effort to change this affects those of us who do have autism.
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
Aborting girls isn't female infanticide, female infanticide is killing newborns. You're looking for sex-selective abortion which is vastly different.

Regarding abortions, that's tricky. If the mother wants an abortion, you don't really have a say in why she wants to. You can't morally guilt them into having a child for any reason even if it's based on bigotry, oppression, etc. However, if it's another party IE the father who wants to abort the girl for the sake of it being a girl then it's a problem. It still falls onto the mother to decide.
This will lead to massive gender imbalances though on a societal level. How do you feel about banning disclosing the sex of the fetus before birth?
 

Audioboxer

Banned
Nov 14, 2019
2,943
Not quite sure what any issue would be here?

Obviously someone who is suffering from a crippling mental or physical ailment may feel they wish they weren't going through life as they are. In this case, we can only hope they can get as much help as possible to make something of life. Suicidal thoughts or wishes you were never born are very normal for people suffering.

Talking about abortion, you can't simultaneously take potshots at the religious saying abortion is a sin and all life is sacred, then approach women and say the right of choice should have others deciding when you can and cannot have an abortion.

Lots of reasons are chosen for abortions from simply "I don't want a baby/contraception failed" to more specifics like "I cannot afford it or we know the baby is going to have severe issues". Whenever a choice is made the outcome is the same, a pregnancy is terminated. 95% of women, either on their own, or with their partner, decide on such decisions in private and with their doctor. Very few people go online to post on Twitter or Instagram they had an abortion and/or to celebrate it. Don't use outliers to inflict guilt or shame on all people. The rise of stupidity on social media is a phenomenon across all of life right now.

As for comments around technology advancing and us being more able to detect problems and therefore potentially act on them. How is that, in principle, any different from someone who just decides they don't want a baby irrespective of the status of that potential baby? The Schrodinger's Baby, it could be perfectly healthy, it could have severe issues, but you abort anyway due to a reason that doesn't consider either of those situations (financial/contraception failed). You can turn the science argument on its head too, as we can detect more chances are more will be able to be done to prevent issues developing in the baby.

At the end of the day, if you want women to have the right to choose, they have the right to choose. Thinking the whole world is going to become part of some large eugenics conspiracy is some Alex Jones level of thinking. Until we are in a world where the state (Government) is forcing the aborting of all babies with liveable conditions you can keep your fearmongering to yourself.

The state isn't choosing for women right now, they choose for themselves. At worst state ran institutions can give advice/knowledge to a potential parent (you know the moral responsibility of all doctors/nurses).
 
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Omegamon

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,884
This will lead to massive gender imbalances though on a societal level. How do you feel about banning disclosing the sex of the fetus before birth?
There are are already massive gender imbalances in countries where people kill female newborn and this is a problem causes by men, abortion is a women's choice.
 

Deleted member 48434

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 8, 2018
5,230
Sydney
I spent a lot of time in High School surrounded by other fellow Autistics, some were high functioning, and some were very much not. Lots of screaming.
I don't expect to ever have children, but if I did, and If I knew they would be a low functioning Autistic... I don't think I could do it.
I'd be for the abortion.
It's a brutal subject to talk about, particularly because I am autistic myself, and a self loathing one at that.
Even though I am High functioning, I have the constant fear that I may never be able to become independent from my parents. I fear of being a burden.
None of my friends even speak to me anymore, and I've given up on the idea that I will ever have anything more than a low paying entry level Job, if that.
 

Cugel

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Nov 7, 2017
4,424
I may be ignorant but I thought you can't diagnose autism in the womb? Sounds like BS.
As for fœtus with Down syndrome I guess it's widespread to abort them in most first world countries, is that controversial if you are pro choice ?
 

Lentic

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,836
There are are already massive gender imbalances in countries where people kill female newborn and this is a problem causes by men, abortion is a women's choice.
Those gender imbalances will become even bigger. If we end up living in a society that's even more male dominated that's not a good thing either.
 

Schreckstoff

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,628
Autism is a spectrum and in the most severe cases it can absolutely be hell for everyone involved.
It's not detectable in the womb though so it's a moot discussion.
Definitely the severity and competences vary but as you say it's not yet detectable and likely won't be for the foreseeable future or the exact impact thereof.
 
Oct 27, 2017
10,660
Is this a question about abortion in general? I believe a woman should have the choice to abort for any reason. I also believe that we should use science and technology to help potential parents. Autism isn't something we can detect in the womb, but if it were I don't believe we should shame mothers that decide to terminate a pregnancy for that reason.
 

Omegamon

Alt Account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,884
Those gender imbalances will become even bigger. If we end up living in a society that's even more male dominated that's not a good thing either.
We only would live in a male dominanted society if it's men making the choices of what fetus gets aborted because of their sex. It's mostly men who wants boys, not women
 

Darksol

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,704
Japan
A woman has a right to abort for any reason. If she doesn't feel like she can or wants to raise a child with special needs, that's her choice and her choice alone.

I also won't blame the medical community for working towards being able to detect things like this in the womb so the patient may make an informed decision.

In Canada and Japan, screening for conditions like Down Syndrome is already common, and I don't blame any mother who decides she isn't up for that.

As far as I know, there aren't any tests that can detect people on the spectrum in the womb as of yet, but once there is, I certainly expect mothers will want to be informed of that as well. Lots of data suggests a shorter lifespan for people on the spectrum, an increased opportunity to develop cancer and diabetes, and as for autism, a quarter to a third who will be nonverbal.

Not everybody is up to the unique challenges that this presents, and I'm never going to begrudge someone for deciding that isn't for them.
 

Umbrella Carp

Banned
Jan 16, 2019
3,265
This is a discussion fraught with danger of course, because the abortian debate gets wrapped up in this as well, but again I feel like the best possible way forward in what is clearly an incredibly hard situation is to leave the power in women's hands. They have to carry the baby to term, they have to deal with the difficulties that come with that and everything following. I'd rather a person know for certain what they are or aren't capable of dealing with before they bring another tortured life into this world.
 

Pilgrimzero

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
8,129
My step son is on the spectrum and high functioning.
He will never lead a normal life and will need help after his mother and I are dead of old age. We worry how that's going to pan out...

BUT we are lucky, because I have seem parents who's child is not high functioning and their lives and that child's is sad.

I recall a video about a man who was homeless and on the spectrum about like my step son and it was so sad.

it maybe easier to deal with if you have a lot ofmoney, but Blue Colar Joe and his paycheck to paycheck while taking care of someone who can barely feed themselves and they area they live in (like this shitty state) has crappy social services is heart wrenching.

im not advocating for eugenics but I can understand why some people would.
 

Artdayne

Banned
Nov 7, 2017
5,015
I support a woman's right to choose but I'm super weary about any major movement or advocacy to abort children that have a specific psychological condition.
 

Deleted member 11413

User requested account closure
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Oct 27, 2017
22,961
I think the only neurological condition that would deserve to be aborted are psychopaths. The one neurological anomaly that cause death and harm for millions. Instead we make them our kings, rulers or bosses who then order us to shun, maim and destroy the helpless and needful including all handicapped people.
You mean something that has no formal medical definition, is actually a confluence of multiple separate personality disorders, and is not inherent to ones birth but rather heavily influenced by the environment someone grows up in? Wow, great fucking idea genius. Please educate yourself: https://www.psychologicalscience.or...thy-a-misunderstood-personality-disorder.html
 
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