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Edmond Dantès

It belongs in a museum!
Member
Aug 24, 2022
5,439
UK
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Critics of Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa say behind remarks is lack of national recognition that slavery should be discussed in schools.
Portugal needs to "pay the costs" of slavery and other colonial-era crimes, the country's president has said, in a rare instance of a European leader seemingly backing the need for reparations.

Portugal has long grappled with calls by campaigners to address its legacy as the European country with the longest historical involvement in the slave trade. During the span of four centuries, nearly 6 million Africans were kidnapped and forcibly transported across the Atlantic by Portuguese vessels.

Those who managed to survive the voyage were enslaved and forced to toil on plantations in the Americas, mostly in Brazil, while Portugal and its institutions profited from their labour.

The country's president, Marcelo Rebelo de Sousa, said at an event with foreign journalists on Tuesday that Portugal "takes full responsibility" for the wrongs of the past and that those crimes, including colonial massacres, had "costs".

"We have to pay the costs," he said. "Are there actions that were not punished and those responsible were not arrested? Are there goods that were looted and not returned? Let's see how we can repair this."

The remarks came one year after Rebelo de Sousa said Portugal should apologise and "assume responsibility" for its role in the transatlantic slave trade, though he stopped short of providing any concrete details or a full apology.

In both instances, the president's remarks were made primarily to international audiences, said Paula Cardoso, the founder of the Afrolink online platform for Black professionals in Portugal.

"Behind this international strategy is the lack of national recognition that this topic should be discussed," Cardoso said in an email. "Kids are still learning at schools that Portugal was an excellent coloniser, that the country 'discovered' other countries, and that Portuguese people are so unique that they mixed with different cultures as if no violations occurred."

She agreed on the need for reparations, arguing that Portugal must pay the costs of "being the creator of the transatlantic slave trade, of a culture of dehumanisation of Black bodies".

She said practical actions to fight the systemic and structural racism that arose from this and that continued to colour the country today were also needed.

"We don't even collect data on ethnicity to start with," said Cardoso. "We are not even discussing the past, accepting that we must confront different historical narratives to consider the negative impact of the so-called Discoveries Age. So, how is Portugal taking full responsibility?"

The Portuguese president's remarks come after the United Nations human rights chief added his voice to the African and Caribbean countries calling for amends to be made over slavery and colonisation.

"On reparations, we must finally enter a new era," the high commissioner for human rights, Volker Türk, said last week at a UN forum on people of African descent. "Governments must step up to show true leadership with genuine commitments to move swiftly from words to action that will adequately address the wrongs of the past."
Between the 15th and 19th centuries, at least 12.5 million Africans were kidnapped into slavery and forcibly transported long distances by mainly European ships and merchants.

European leaders for the most part have sought to steer clear of meaningfully addressing the call for reparations. When the government of the Netherlands apologised for its role in the transatlantic slave trade in 2022, it said a €200m (£172m) fund to address this past would not be used to compensate descendants but instead spent on initiatives such as education and addressing the present-day impacts of slavery. Germany has been chastised for excluding the ethnic minorities who were murdered by the tens of thousands from talks over reparations.

Speaking to reporters on Tuesday, Rebelo de Sousa said he believed that acknowledging the past and taking responsibility for it was more important than apologising. "Apologising is the easy part," he said.
 

DarthMasta

Member
Feb 17, 2018
4,006
Yeah, I think when he says "pay the costs", he's not talking about direct financial transfers, because, well, good luck getting blood out of that rock.
But if he means other stuff, like having treaties that take history into account, giving preferential access to some stuff to citizens or descendants of citizens of the former colonies, yeah, sure, think it makes sense.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,790
"Behind this international strategy is the lack of national recognition that this topic should be discussed," Cardoso said in an email. "Kids are still learning at schools that Portugal was an excellent coloniser, that the country 'discovered' other countries, and that Portuguese people are so unique that they mixed with different cultures as if no violations occurred."
I appreciate this, I hate when people say Portugal "discovered" Brazil. There were people here long before them.
 

DarthMasta

Member
Feb 17, 2018
4,006
Do they not talk about slavery and colonialism in Portuguese schools?

It's been ages for me, and I like history, so, I also had personal time looking into it that someone who doesn't like history wouldn't have.

But sure, they talk about slavery and colonialism. The focus though was (dunno how it is now) on the heroism of getting on shitty ships and going forward towards "here be Dragons" land.
 

Nooblet

Member
Oct 25, 2017
13,654
Yeah, I think when he says "pay the costs", he's not talking about direct financial transfers, because, well, good luck getting blood out of that rock.
But if he means other stuff, like having treaties that take history into account, giving preferential access to some stuff to citizens or descendants of citizens of the former colonies, yeah, sure, think it makes sense.
Tbf Portugal already does some of this and has done so for years now. For instance, people born in Goa can apply for Portugese nationality if their parents/grandparents were born in colonial Goa. The previous Prime Minister of Pportugal António Costa has ancestry from Goa.

Meanwhile the UK does fuck all, despite having the biggest colonial empire of all time and the largest effect. The extreme Hindu-Muslim animosity in the sub-continent today (which consequently also means the issues between India and Pakistan) is a direct by-product of the UK fanning the flame by employing a divide-and-conquer policy. If it wasn't for that the animosity wouldn't have become as strong to cause a partition, which then would've probably meant better Hindu-Muslim relations in the sub-continent than what is there today.

Instead the UK just puts all its past colonies in a stupid group called the Commonwealth and has games every few years.
 
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julia crawford

Took the red AND the blue pills
Member
Oct 27, 2017
35,446
I regret having to leave the warning that this is probably a milkshake duck situation waiting to happen.

It's been ages for me, and I like history, so, I also had personal time looking into it that someone who doesn't like history wouldn't have.

But sure, they talk about slavery and colonialism. The focus though was (dunno how it is now) on the heroism of getting on shitty ships and going forward towards "here be Dragons" land.

This is my memory of it as well, the focus being more on the technological achievement of it and the establishment of new trade routes to known and unknown ports.
 

Bard

Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
12,524
Time to rename Portuguese to European Brazilian. A small first step on a long road of course.
 

bleck98534

Member
Feb 18, 2023
117
They do, but it's very 'embellished', it's not well taught IMO, people grow up only thinking about the 'golden era' and not all the horrible things that came with it and the future issues it caused.
I think all colonial countries embellish or have embellished previously their history to a certain extent in their education systems. I've certainly seen it in Canada where in decades previous teachers were able to soften the blow of learning about colonization by emphasizing certain elements. For instance, some Quebecois have liked to emphasize how some French colonists more readily mixed with Indigenous peoples (so much so that the term Mètis can be horrifically misused in the province). Meanwhile, I certainly remember teachers in Ontario emphasizing the idea that the English usually only wanted to trade and thus were somehow not as bad. Or I recall some emphasis placed on the alliances the Crown made with Indigenous peoples during the American Revolutionary and 1812 wars. I recall some fellow students proudly pointing out how much worse the Crown could have been to the Indigenous when we were reading "Heart of Darkness." I'm sure you will find similar things in Europe. Ultimately, every colonial nation was just as ruthless and amoral as the next, yet in my opinion they all fight somewhat to present themselves as the most moral colonizer.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,648
Ill be shocked if it goes anywhere, alot of Europeans seem to just bury their heads in the sand and pretend that Europe got rich magically. Especially in the UK
 

Planx

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,735
Portugal's history as a colonizer is super interesting just from how the state pulled up stakes from Portugal and fled to Brazil during Napoleon, and then just kinda stayed there.

The aristocratic class was able to dominate Brazilian politics and keep slavery legal for another ~60 years while Portugal was demanding the return of the king to Europe and trying to draw up a semi-liberal Constitution. I can't think of a similar case with another colonizer where a large chunk of the ruling class just up and left for the colony.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,446
São Paulo - Brazil
This is a complex subject but I do have some thoughts. One is that Brazil can't "wash our hands" from our part in this. Brazil became independent in 1822 and the mass killing of native populations and slavery only ever increased. Especially during periods of economic prosperity in which new lands had to be open for cultivation or exploration. It's always easy to point our fingers at others, but in this case that doesn't help.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,790
This is a complex subject but I do have some thoughts. One is that Brazil can't "wash our hands" from our part in this. Brazil became independent in 1822 and the mass killing of native populations and slavery only ever increased. Especially during periods of economic prosperity in which new lands had to be open for cultivation or exploration. It's always easy to point our fingers at others, but in this case that doesn't help.

Tbh we joke about the gold and everything, but I don't know any Brazilian who actually hates/dislike Portugal. I see much more animosity towards Argentina.
 

SofNascimento

cursed
Member
Oct 28, 2017
21,446
São Paulo - Brazil
Tbh we joke about the gold and everything, but I don't know any Brazilian who actually hates Portugal. I see much more animosity towards Argentina.

We are not serious enough for hate. I didn't mean to say brazilians actually dislike portuguese people, quite the contrary, but there is this idea or semi-idea that Portugal stole everything and is to blame for a lot of or even all of our problems. If you ask me, Portugal already repaid all the gold they have stolen:


TacaLiberta_Abel_band.jpg


With interests!
 
Jan 1, 2024
1,115
Midgar
As an outsider (based on football tbh) I have always felt Portugal better integrates its black population and they are seen as Portuguese, whereas in other parts of Europe its way more complicated (even next door in Spain). Is this just a superficial ignorant view I have or is there something to it?

Portugal's history as a colonizer is super interesting just from how the state pulled up stakes from Portugal and fled to Brazil during Napoleon, and then just kinda stayed there.

The aristocratic class was able to dominate Brazilian politics and keep slavery legal for another ~60 years while Portugal was demanding the return of the king to Europe and trying to draw up a semi-liberal Constitution. I can't think of a similar case with another colonizer where a large chunk of the ruling class just up and left for the colony.
This kind of happened in the Ottoman Empire in a way.

Egypt gained its independence from the Ottoman Empire under the rule of an Ottoman Turco-Albanian elite in 1805.

The Ottoman Empire ended in 1923.

The Ottoman origin dynasty led Egypt until 1953 (although they had become Arabicized, but you can tell from their racial features their origins are from Balkans/Turkey and not from Egypt).

So an offshoot of the Ottoman dynasty continued ruling Egypt until 1953, even though the Ottoman Empire itself ended in 1923.

We are not serious enough for hate. I didn't mean to say brazilians actually dislike portuguese people, quite the contrary, but there is this idea or semi-idea that Portugal stole everything and is to blame for a lot of or even all of our problems. If you ask me, Portugal already repaid all the gold they have stolen:


TacaLiberta_Abel_band.jpg


With interests!
What's this referencing?
 
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Jan 1, 2024
1,115
Midgar
Abel Ferreira and his team. Their are portuguese and the coach team of brazilian football team Palmeiras. Abel is basically one of the most successful coaches in Brazil history, even if he has been here for just a few years. He won A LOT. And I'm a palmeiras fan!
We played you in Club World Cup Final 2 years ago :)

I jokingly call our star player Cole Palmeiras.

Maybe we will meet again in the big 2025 FIFA Club World Cup.
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,712
Tbf Portugal already does some of this and has done so for years now. For instance, people born in Goa can apply for Portugese nationality if their father/grandfathers were born in colonial Goa. The previous Prime Minister António Costa of Portugal has ancestry from Goa.

Meanwhile the UK does fuck all, despite having the biggest colonial empire of all time and the largest effect. The extreme Hindu-Muslim animosity in the sub-continent today (which consequently also means the issues between India and Pakistan) is a direct by-product of the UK fanning the flame by employing a divide-and-conquer policy. If it wasn't for that the animosity wouldn't have become as strong to cause a partition, which then would've probably meant better Hindu-Muslim relations in the sub-continent than what is there today.

Instead the UK just puts all its past colonies in a stupid group called the Commonwealth and has games every few years.
Yeah, I remember that difference was very striking to me, how the UK couldnt do enough to make sure as little native people from their colonies as possible move to Great Britain just before independence and Portugal that to this day offers citizenship.
 

Mansa Mufasa

Member
Jun 17, 2019
1,387
Toronto
Ill be shocked if it goes anywhere, alot of Europeans seem to just bury their heads in the sand and pretend that Europe got rich magically. Especially in the UK

As a Black man I've never been more traumatized than visiting a chocolate museum in Brussels, Belgium. I knew the horrors behind the chocolate trade but I never imagined the extent the Belgians would go to white wash history...they had figurines of slaves smiling and enjoying the hard work...portraying it as an honour to help their colonizers farm coco trees.


These are the same people that committed a genocide in Congo where they would chop off the hands and feet of children whose parents didn't meet slave quotas.

I have a lot of opinions on America and Canada for how they handle the topic of Slavery but that trip made me realize just how far ahead they were compared to Belgium and Spain.


The Spanish don't even acknowledge Colonialism they call what they did Vice-Royalties because in their eyes they technically didn't occupy much land so it's not the same thing.

I think the thing that left me speechless the most was finding out that Iberian Ham was so renowned and cherished in Spain because it's a rebuke against the Moors and Muslims....they knew Muslims were forbidden from eating Pork so as an insult to them after they were expelled during the Spanish inquisition...they opted for a Pork dish to be their food of choice.

You know how much hate in your heart you have to have in order for that to be your justification
 

ManOfWar

Member
Jan 6, 2020
2,477
Brazil
Sure I didn't meant to say it was everyone, I see more towards Argentina because of the football rivalry

yeah, that's the thing, this Brazil vs Argentina rivalry is mainly a product of a certain comentator and it's just artificial, I guess mainly restricted to football (refuse to call it differently). I live next to the border and Argentinians and Brazilians get along just fine.
 
Oct 27, 2017
8,648
As a Black man I've never been more traumatized than visiting a chocolate museum in Brussels, Belgium. I knew the horrors behind the chocolate trade but I never imagined the extent the Belgians would go to white wash history...they had figurines of slaves smiling and enjoying the hard work...portraying it as an honour to help their colonizers farm coco trees.


These are the same people that committed a genocide in Congo where they would chop off the hands and feet of children whose parents didn't meet slave quotas.

I have a lot of opinions on America and Canada for how they handle the topic of Slavery but that trip made me realize just how far ahead they were compared to Belgium and Spain.


The Spanish don't even acknowledge Colonialism they call what they did Vice-Royalties because in their eyes they technically didn't occupy much land so it's not the same thing.

I think the thing that left me speechless the most was finding out that Iberian Ham was so renowned and cherished in Spain because it's a rebuke against the Moors and Muslims....they knew Muslims were forbidden from eating Pork so as an insult to them after they were expelled during the Spanish inquisition...they opted for a Pork dish to be their food of choice.

You know how much hate in your heart you have to have in order for that to be your justification
Im honestly not suprised to hear this, alot of Europeans think racism and discrimination only happens in the US and not where they live and im like "my brother in christ where do you think the US got it from? Space???"

You should hear how some british people acted whne my country decided to cut ties with the Queen. They acted like we owed them alliegance cuz they "civilised" us
 

DarthMasta

Member
Feb 17, 2018
4,006
I think the thing that left me speechless the most was finding out that Iberian Ham was so renowned and cherished in Spain because it's a rebuke against the Moors and Muslims....they knew Muslims were forbidden from eating Pork so as an insult to them after they were expelled during the Spanish inquisition...they opted for a Pork dish to be their food of choice.

I wouldn't read so much into it, ham has been present in the cuisine of the area from before the Moors, although it sure was a statement to eat Pork while the region was under their rule and it was used after the Reconquista as a test to make sure that people were Christian, but ham has been a part of the culture from before the times of the Romans.
 

BahamutPT

Member
Oct 28, 2017
56
There's also a slightly related kicker missing here. Just a few moments later, he managed to say our former PM was "slow" because he's "oriental" (Goan descent) and said our current PM behaves like a rural person (close to calling someone a redneck, but it didn't even make sense as he was born and raised in the second-largest metropolitan area of Portugal).

That being said, I agree that artifacts/valuables should be returned to their rightful owners if they so desire and then be displayed again on loan if allowed. I also agree that the History curriculum should have some focus on the wrongs of the Discovery Era and Colonialism, but with the rise of the far-right in recent elections I see it as a pipe dream.
We have some initiatives and programs aimed at former colonies, but I must say I don't actually know how effective they are in actually trying to lift up the people in those countries. Pretty sure we could do a bit more with the little we have, though.

Regarding some comments about racism: it may seem like it doesn't exist to a lot of people, but that's because, in most cases, it simply won't be as overt as it may be in other countries. There are definitely internalized prejudices that most people won't voice outside their inner circles and try to maintain an outward facade of acceptance of all people. In some places more than others, you can see/hear it in "jokes" or small changes in behavior/mood when black people or other minorities are around.
 

Mansa Mufasa

Member
Jun 17, 2019
1,387
Toronto
I wouldn't read so much into it, ham has been present in the cuisine of the area from before the Moors, although it sure was a statement to eat Pork while the region was under their rule and it was used after the Reconquista as a test to make sure that people were Christian, but ham has been a part of the culture from before the times of the Romans.

Ok...can you explain why all the parades I've witnessed in Spain have Blackface?
 
Oct 25, 2017
13,077
Maybe unrelated but Spain has been giving nationality to people that can prove that they are descendant of the Sephardic Jews that were expelled of Spain back in 1492. From what I've heard Portugal is doing something similar, it's nice but it's also kind of expensive which means that only people that are economically well-off can end up doing so, which means that the people that really need it can't get said opportunities but something is something I guess.
 

rgnthm

Member
Aug 10, 2018
33
I think the thing that left me speechless the most was finding out that Iberian Ham was so renowned and cherished in Spain because it's a rebuke against the Moors and Muslims....they knew Muslims were forbidden from eating Pork so as an insult to them after they were expelled during the Spanish inquisition...they opted for a Pork dish to be their food of choice.

This is absolutely not true. Iberian Ham was very renowned back in Roman times. In fact, it was so widely consumed by the Roman elite throughout the Empire that it became one of Hispania's most important exports.
 

Mansa Mufasa

Member
Jun 17, 2019
1,387
Toronto
This is absolutely not true. Iberian Ham was very renowned back in Roman times. In fact, it was so widely consumed by the Roman elite throughout the Empire that it became one of Hispania's most important exports.

Not sure what to say. I've had multiple people tell me that's why it's widely celebrated, I moved to Malaga back in August and this was told to me by Locals and a tour guide.
 

Mansa Mufasa

Member
Jun 17, 2019
1,387
Toronto
This is absolutely not true. Iberian Ham was very renowned back in Roman times. In fact, it was so widely consumed by the Roman elite throughout the Empire that it became one of Hispania's most important exports.

Not sure what to say. I've had multiple people tell me that's why it's widely celebrated, I moved to Malaga back in August and this was told to me by Locals and a tour guide.

This might be the source of confusion:

I wouldn't read so much into it, ham has been present in the cuisine of the area from before the Moors, although it sure was a statement to eat Pork while the region was under their rule and it was used after the Reconquista as a test to make sure that people were Christian, but ham has been a part of the culture from before the times of the Romans.
 

Thorrgal

Member
Oct 26, 2017
12,386
Not sure what to say. I've had multiple people tell me that's why it's widely celebrated, I moved to Malaga back in August and this was told to me by Locals and a tour guide.

I'm (kind of) spanish (and quite old) and never heard of this myself.

Not to defend the multiple spanish shortcomings in many aspects.

Maybe is a regional thing as I live up north, so the geographical opposite of Malaga
 
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Sargerus

▲ Legend ▲
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
20,899
Start by enforcing more hard penalties on people being racists idiots against brazilians living in Portugal.
 

madstrike

Member
Oct 25, 2017
540
Boy, we sure have come a long way since his "There is no racism in Portugal" diatribe from a few years ago.
 

Tomasoares

Member
Oct 28, 2017
4,599
As a brazilian, I appreciate the gesture but there 's really nothing Portugal can do to reparate all the crimes during the 300 years of colonization lol

Brazil is 20x bigger and even if Portugal would give billions of euros it wouldn't mean anything in Brazil scale lol, even giving the "gold" back wouldn't make difference as it is just a commodity anyway. Also, Brazil has been independent since 1822 and it only made slavery and indigenous genocide worse as well.

If anything can be done is either sign deals that benefits Brazil in Portugal territory (such as trade deals and other things) and fight against xenophobia for brazillians living in Portugal.
 

Gacha Santa Alter

"This guy are sick"
Member
Feb 9, 2019
2,521
Gacha Hell
Brasil pls stop asking for the gold back, it's not that we wanna hoard, we're just fucking broke.

Anyway, reparations is always a touchy subject and one that I can't quite get my head around because... hell, how do you even start making amends for wrongs commited for centuries? It has to start with educating our own country, surely. I wouldn't say we're completely ignorant of the dark side of our colonial history but in my day you surely didn't hear about it in school.
 

massoluk

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,617
Thailand
"Behind this international strategy is the lack of national recognition that this topic should be discussed," Cardoso said in an email. "Kids are still learning at schools that Portugal was an excellent coloniser, that the country 'discovered' other countries, and that Portuguese people are so unique that they mixed with different cultures as if no violations occurred."
Every country needs this message out. Not unique to Portugal:(
 
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Nakho

Member
Nov 1, 2017
1,309
Portugal couldn't give back our gold even if they wanted to. It went to the Dutch and especially the English. Brazil was colonized by Portugal's elite back then, and I don't know a bunch of suckers worse than them in European history. I've nothing but love to (non-racist) Portuguese people nowadays.

Also, we should make reparations to Paraguai anyway.
 

Rosebud

Two Pieces
Member
Apr 16, 2018
43,790
Portugal couldn't give back our gold even if they wanted to. It went to the Dutch and especially the English. Brazil was colonized by Portugal's elite back then, and I don't know a bunch of suckers worse than them in European history. I've nothing but love to (non-racist) Portuguese people nowadays.

Also, we should make reparations to Paraguai anyway.
Yup, England always finds a way to get other countries stuff it's remarkable