nobody should be forced into having any more french in anything
Québec will now require that only Québec music be played in government buildings and phone lines
- Thread starter DiipuSurotu
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Worse in that it's an even narrower subset of music that's already pretty bad in general (Canadian music). The Alberta equivalent of this would be having to listen to Nickelback and Brett Kissel while on hold, in which case my condolences would be equally justified. Especially considering the last time I had to make a call for government services the expected wait time was upwards of two hours.
I also didn't intend to come across "anti-Quebec" in my original post, as I was saying something in jest, and the way this thread has turned out I certainly don't want to be adding to the "fuck French, learn English" vibes.
I don't, but it's going to happen. Here's what I do: I deal with it like a grown up.
Mais tsé, "pourquoi tant de haine, voyons?" n'est pas vraiment une question de bonne foi, c'est une "loaded question".
C'est comme si je te demandais, "Mais pourquoi les Français ont autant de haine envers les Belges?".
English is the dominant language everywhere and was never under threat of assimilation or erasure. French is not the dominant language in Canada, and for decades, French speakers were treated as second class citizens there. This is the mildest of pushback against this. It's not "forcing French" on anyone. People in Quebec are free to speak English as much as they want. Good grief, there's some anglo fragility in this thread, I swear. Are you even Canadian?
Some of the more heavy-handed efforts to protect French in Quebec make me think of France also making some of their own heavy-handed language protection efforts, like how they decided to officially use the word "courriel" to refer to e-mail in order to replace the English loanword "mail". The circumstances are different - French is probably not a minority language in France - so I'm not sure how much of a connection there actually is.
So you don't agree that more representation of minorities is good? that's an interesting take in a progressive forum.
You called this a "joke":
Since your only elaboration about why this is a "joke" is some handwringing about "forced" languages, what else am I supposed to conclude?
Ehhh don't go there.
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France doesn't use courriel, it's Quebec who does. France typically does use English loanwords (and pronounce them horribly like saying "mell" :P).
I'm not a fan of "courriel" myself, mind you. In fact, there's loads of things I dislike about the French protection efforts here, but it's very annoying to see non-Quebecois chiming in with ignorant remarks (not saying that's you, just in general).
But you're correct that the circumstances are different. France isn't surrounded by a sea of anglos nor were they ruled by them in recent memory, for one.
You didn't need to. You still showed a lack of understanding of relations of power.
They got it from Quebec.
France Bids Adieu to 'E-Mail'
The French government strikes another blow for linguistic purity, decreeing that "e-mail" -- that English bastardization of "electronic mail" -- shall be replaced with the more Gallic-sounding "courriel."
OP
OP
Courriel is great and much better than "mél" or whatever spelling France officially used on administrative forms lol
I fully think a required French curriculum that is at least as extensive as those in English schools in Quebec should be required everywhere else in the country. And pushing that further, I think the French curriculum in English schools in Quebec is pretty lackluster and should have a much higher standard.
Meh. He literally said more of "x" would be bad in response to someone saying there could be more representation. It's one hell of a take to have. It's all.
I agree, they relaxed French language requirements out here in BC just when I hit junior high age in the mid 90s. I think I only took it to grade 8 iirc. It became an elective after that. I regret not being forced to take more French. It is a beautiful language
Quebec has been fighting to keep the French language and history alive in Canada from the beginning of colonization of the Americas.
Huh. That's from 2003 too, but that's literally news to me. I worked with a lot of French people and not only do they never say courriel, they also pretty much say exclusively "mell" or "mél" lol, and some have even poked fun at the courriel thing. This was well after 2003 too...They got it from Quebec.
France Bids Adieu to 'E-Mail'
The French government strikes another blow for linguistic purity, decreeing that "e-mail" -- that English bastardization of "electronic mail" -- shall be replaced with the more Gallic-sounding "courriel."www.wired.com
Weird, maybe it's an expat thing.
I wonder how it is now since this was, well, decades ago >.> but as a kid I did an immersion English class in 6th grade, and our class had a student exchange program with an Ontario school who (supposedly) had French immersion. When we went over there, all of us spoke English the whole time (as we should have). When they came here... not a single one of those Ontarian kids could even string together a sentence in French. My parents actually practiced their crummy English with my "twinned" student more than she practiced her French lmao
I wouldn't say the English curriculum is superb in Quebec. The basic expectations from someone finishing sec.5 are laughable.
I think second languages could overall be better everywhere.
I think Quebec generally takes things a step further.
In France, STOP signs use the word "stop." In Quebec they have been gradually changed to "arrêt" because "stop" looked too English.
That's why non French families send their kids to French schools in Ontario now because it's the actual proper way to learn French. I don't have qualms with it in principle, but it's moved the effective goal of French schools from learning in French to learning French. That is not good, because that's what French Immersion should be doing.
I think that's why that effort was so highly publicized. It was an official move to fight the use of English loanwords for online things like "e-mail" and "blog", but at that point the English loanwords were already in common use, so the effort just seems doomed to failure.
I don't have a problem with it, knowing the history at play here. There's been some far more questionable stuff done in Quebec , like cancelling the application of a certain forum member for starters.
The Rest of Canada has always rolled their eyes at this stuff so it's nothing new. They don't get it and they forgot their history from school.
As an anglophone with rusty French from years of French immersion, visiting Quebec is always intimidating even though everyone I ever met there is very nice despite knowing I'm not a native speaker.
The Rest of Canada has always rolled their eyes at this stuff so it's nothing new. They don't get it and they forgot their history from school.
As an anglophone with rusty French from years of French immersion, visiting Quebec is always intimidating even though everyone I ever met there is very nice despite knowing I'm not a native speaker.
From my experience, it's probably the same or worse now, lol.
Oh, I absolutely agree. I'm just focusing on the French part, really. I do think most of the country not even having a basic understanding of French is deplorable.
As someone living in Quebec, I don't really care about this since it's only with our government lines and I assume most people living here(whether french or english speaking) don't care either. I mean, how often do people call the government lines anyway? It's not like they're forcing this on every damn lines of every businesses and radios in the province.
Beside, if I want to hear english music that much, I'll just listen to them on my playlist.
Beside, if I want to hear english music that much, I'll just listen to them on my playlist.
The problem with any discourse with Quebec is:
1) The history of attempted cultural assimilation, and discrimination by white anglo society on Quebec settler populations.
2) Despite this, French Quebecois population still benefited greatly from colonialism, racism and white supremacy.
3) The deep history of anti-semitism and white nationalism tied to white settler Quebecois nationalism
4) The historic use of "preserving the French language" or "preserving Quebec culture" being used as an excuse for forceful assimilation of immigrant populations, First Nations, POC and to target minority groups (see: Bill 21).
5) Francophones still getting the raw deal outside of Quebec. Which is ridiculous.
6) The current Quebec government is a racist conservative white nationalist party. So anything they do will be analyzed under that microscope, even if it's something minor.
1) The history of attempted cultural assimilation, and discrimination by white anglo society on Quebec settler populations.
2) Despite this, French Quebecois population still benefited greatly from colonialism, racism and white supremacy.
3) The deep history of anti-semitism and white nationalism tied to white settler Quebecois nationalism
4) The historic use of "preserving the French language" or "preserving Quebec culture" being used as an excuse for forceful assimilation of immigrant populations, First Nations, POC and to target minority groups (see: Bill 21).
5) Francophones still getting the raw deal outside of Quebec. Which is ridiculous.
6) The current Quebec government is a racist conservative white nationalist party. So anything they do will be analyzed under that microscope, even if it's something minor.
And the opposition are separatist nutjobs... rock and a hard place.
yes i think a government having to ever even officially decide what music is being played in it's buildings is kind of silly at the end of the day
on the scale of not a big deal at all to the worst thing in the world im right up against the edge of not a big deal at all end for this specific issue
i objected specifically to his wording
all over the americas (well and the whole world) there is a terrible history of forcing languages on people, a blatant attempt at destroying indigenous cultures. i strongly believe there should not be official languages that are enforced by any governmental body. keep in mind im not saying that this or even most of quebecs other efforts are forcing anything onto people that dont want it. its just theres a long history of awful shit when it comes to forcing people with languages and canada is absolutely not innocent in that regard
like i can only imagine the response from a friend of mine who grew up in nunavut to the sentence: "the rest of Canada should be forced into having more French in general". it would not be positive
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I think the liberals with the bloc's backing are trying to enforce can con on streaming and YouTube via Bill c10. I've only read it will force biased Canadian recommendations in these services but I'm uneasy with the law since it seems to grant crtc unlimited power to regulate content which I assume indcludes banning them
Just wait until how badly White Francophones treat non White Francophones outside of Quebec, even if they are absolutely the path to keep the language alive as that's where the population is growing. I'm sure it won't shock you to find out that it's the same racist shit.
My issue with this is that level of laissez-faire is how you also end up with a homogenous language society. It doesn't and won't work. Effort is required when a language is a minority. Implementation will dictate wether it's oppressive or not (and frankly Quebec doesn't have a great track record there).
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While I agree with you, personally I'm not really interested in choosing sides in a country founded through genocide. English, French, doesn't matter to me. Just summarizing briefly for someone who isn't Canadian.
I took French immersion from grade 1 through 12 and… yeah. It wasn't great. We could speak in slow sentences, and read it fairly well, but I certainly wouldn't say fluent. It's just not that thorough when you communicate with the same 13 kids who speak it as poorly as you do, and only have a handful of teachers to model your fluency after. My father's side of the family is Metis and bilingual but I couldn't follow a conversation when my grandparents would speak. Speaking it outside of school in daily usage goes a long way.
Well over a decade removed from school I can still read it fairly well but, as my most recent time through Quebec told me, my ability to speak it is poor enough to make me feel embarrassed. That said, our immersion "exchange students" spoke pretty poor English but it was good to try to learn a bit of French from them.
There's some nuance there that you may not be privy to as a non Canadian. I'm not trying to change your mind, nor do I think you are incorrect, but I think it's important to note that there's some intertwined history between genocide and speaking French, specifically regarding Manitoba. Yes that society was a result of colonialism, but the "success" of the oppression of a French speaking Metis society was the direct inspiration of the genocidial response that the British unleashed on the natives afterwards.
Good luck implementing free education for all without one.
No whiners here would complain over any of this happening in Italy. But every time this is happening in Quebec? "tHe SiGnS wErE iN fReNcH!! Waaah!"
Yeah the people in the U.S. who do tend try to promote nationalism tend to be white nationalist/racists/white makes right types. So while we have those elements, its nothing we're proud of. It's those guys you see trying to make "English the official language" of the U.S. or Christianity the official religion or "Western values" whatever.
We don't like those people here.
Jonathan Coulton - Je Suis Rick Springfield (Official Video)
Jonathan Coulton performs "Je Suis Rick Springfield" from his new album Artificial Heart. Directed by John Flansburgh. For more information on Jonathan Coult...
youtu.be
C'est honteux comme commentaire.
De plus, nous sommes pas des français mais des québécois coliss!!!
Also the fact that we're speaking French in English speaking countries (English Canada + US). They do this to promote French but also protect French which has been declining.
But this person said it better than I did.
Oh, I'm Canadian. And yeah, I agree it's very nuanced but my original post was just for, again, someone who isn't Canadian. I don't want to dismiss how shitty the British have been towards the French, but the French are also not innocent either. Again, the original article here is about why people in Quebec might be for this legal change. I answered it, not looking for a debate lol. For what it's worth, I agree with all of your points.
It's amazing in a sad way that such skit can be made. I don't know what worse, a guy who insult locals in a language they don't understand or the vociferous crowd with Conan.
Debatable. See IGA grocery store chain. IGA means Independant Grocer Alliance.Quebec's language laws are so strict they can't even use the acronym KFC.
