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Sampson

Banned
Nov 17, 2017
1,196
One of the great myths of American culture is that buying a home is a "great investment" and is financially better than renting which is often derided as "throwing your money away" or "paying for someone else's mortgage". I'm sure if you're American, you're familiar with this line of thinking and might even believe it yourself (perhaps not if you're from a country like Germany or Switzerland where home ownership rates tend to be far lower). I see it crop up on this forum frequently in topics about buying a house.

I want to use this post to try to dispel this myth. On average, buying a home is worse for you financially than renting.

To be clear, it's not always a bad idea to buy a house. It's often a great idea to buy a home for lifestyle-related reasons. Perhaps you place great psychological value on the freedom home ownership gives you to repaint, remodel, install a pool, etc. Maybe you don't want to be forced to move if your landlord kicks you out. Maybe you want a certain type of home that's difficult to find as a rental, or have many dogs or strange hobbies that landlords shun. These are all entirely valid reasons to buy a home. But they are lifestyle-based, not financial.

"But I/my friend/my parents/my barber bought a home in 2009 and now it's worth 4X as much!" -- Yes, I'm sure that's true. Sometimes people buy houses and they appreciate significantly in value. Sometimes they sell them and make a lot of money. Also, sometimes people play the lottery and make millions of dollars.

Not everyone who buys a home is going to make a lot of money, just like not everyone who plays the lottery is going to make a lot of money. There are far fewer lottery winners than there are successful house flippers, but on average, most people don't make much money on their house. And many people lose a lot of money.

If you look at historical data on housing prices, you see that prices appear to rise steadily year-over-year. But this doesn't take into account inflation, or the fact that the average house has been getting larger over time. If you adjust for these factors, you find that on average, house prices have only increased about 1% per year over the last 100 years, and on average, house prices experience a crash about every 10 years. Now some markets have done a lot better than others. If you bought a house in the Bay area 50 years ago you've probably made a small fortune. But if you bought a house in a place like Detroit, you may have lost everything. You might try to convince yourself wherever you're buying a house is the next San Francisco and not the next Detroit, but you're not a psychic. The future is inherently uncertain -- you just can't know.

On the other hand, the S&P 500 -- the most general stock market index -- has risen nearly 10% on average over the last 100 years. In other words, if you had put the money you spent on your down payment into a low-cost stock index fund, you would've done much better.

What's more, buying and selling a house is very expensive -- you often pay a realtor 6% of the price. Stocks can be purchased for just a few dollars in commission (depending on your broker, maybe for free) and can be bought through tax-advantaged accounts (for most people, a Roth IRA is ideal). If you need the money, you can sell a portion of your stock portfolio. If you need to take money out of your house, you either have to sell it or borrow against it which is often expensive (you can refinance if the house has gone up a lot in value, but that's not always the case).

Will this continue in the future? What determines house prices?

House prices are a function of rent. A house is worth about 25X what someone would be willing to pay to rent it for one year. In other words, if you could rent it out to someone for $10,000 per year, the house should be worth about $250,000. In high growth markets like San Francisco, this ratio is closer to 40X, and in low growth markets like the rust belt, it's closer to 15X. But the key idea is that the value of your house is determined by the potential rent.

Another thing people often believe is that the price of rent must reflect the cost of owning -- that the rent has to factor in the mortgage, taxes, maintenance, etc. This is not simply true. A landlord may have bought the house many years ago, paid it off, and have much lower costs than someone who is buying today. They may be renting it out at a loss. They may own hundreds of homes and have lower costs because of economies of scale (for example, a dedicated maintenance team). Rent is a function of what people are willing to pay. Not a function of what it costs to provide the home. Rents determine house prices. Not the other way around.

Some people say it's a good idea to buy a house because rents keep rising, and they don't want the risk. It's true -- rents do rise over time. Sometimes they rise sharply, and they rarely fall. But they don't rise as much as people think. Again, on average, only about 1-2% per year. And rents are highly correlated with the economy in a particular city. If you live in a city where the economy is booming, rents will rise in lock step with the boom. But that's because the income in that area is also rising, so people can afford to pay more for the rent.

If you live in Houston, and the price of oil is high, rents are probably going to rise. But your income will probably rise, too. That's not true for everyone. If you're on a fixed income or have a job that's not so closely linked to the economy (say you work for the government) you might end up getting priced out of the market, and be forced to move. This is a legitimate risk as a renter, but ignores the fact that owning a home is even more risky. If the boom ends, your income may drop -- you might even lose your job -- but now you're stuck with a mortgage you somehow have to find a way to pay or go into foreclosure.

In the short-term there can be fluctuations, but in the long-run, the stock market should always outperform the housing market. This is because if companies are not doing well, people are not going to be able to afford to pay high rents.

There are some exceptions to all of this. US veterans, for example, can get very favorable mortgage terms. Some people have jobs that gives them money towards housing, or other similar perks.

But for the average person, the ideal financial strategy is to rent something where the monthly rental payment is about the same as what you would've spent on a mortgage. Then take the money you would've spent on a down payment, taxes, and maintenance and invest it into a low-cost stock market index fund. After 30 years, it's likely you'll have a lot more money than your neighbor who bought a house.

Again, this is not to say no one should buy a house. There are a lot of legitimate reasons to buy one. And sometimes you can make a lot of money if you happen to get lucky. But don't believe the people who try to tell you buying a house is such a great financial decision. It's simply not true. Incidentally, there's an entire industry dedicated to making you believe this myth -- the national association of realtors is one of the largest lobbyists in the United States.
 
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Stephen Home

Alt account
Banned
Dec 17, 2018
709
It depends entirely on your local rent and house market.

Also building coop is another option.
 

eZn

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
1,856
House prices are a function of rent. A house is worth about 25X what someone would be willing to pay to rent it for one month. In other words, if you could rent it out to someone for $1,000 per month, the house should be worth about $250,000. In high growth markets like San Francisco, this ratio is closer to 40X, and in low growth markets like the rust belt, it's closer to 15X. But the key idea is that the value of your house is determined by the potential rent.

I have no idea what you are getting at here?

25 times $1000 is $25,000 not $250,000.
 

Nexus2049

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,833
Even if I ended up spending more in the long run, dealing with landlords is a pain in my ass. That alone is why I'm saving up for a downpayment ASAP.
 

Deleted member 12028

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,085
Buyers don't pay anything to a realtor to buy a house. Most people aren't going to take the money they saved and invest it into an index fund. My house is worth 150k/200k more than when I bought it 5 years ago. I would never get that type of return from an index fund in that short time.
 
Oct 26, 2017
520
A big thing I think you're overlooking is the advantage in retirement, once you're on a fixed income having a house paid off vs still paying rent is a huge boost to your quality of life, as well as entirely stable, once it's paid off it doesn't matter how many stock market crashes there are, you don't suddenly start having to pay rent
 

Airegin

Member
Dec 10, 2017
3,900
If you pay rent instead of paying off a loan, how much more money is left to invest in the S&P 500 that you couldn't invest as a buyer?
 

shinra-bansho

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,964
You can't live in an index fund? I don't actually think most people buy houses as investments anyway.
Also, I think someone already made this thread.
 

Ether_Snake

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
11,306
Working from home will significantly increase in popularity, and increased funding in transportation will allow people to live further from work. The only thing really sustaining high house prices are regulations, including those meant to meant yo make them more affordable whic just allows people to pile more money in an asset that gets inflated as a result. Canada is a particularly choice example of this.
 

Trouble

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,146
Seattle-ish
You are completely discarding the equity gained by ownership, which is where nearly the entire financial advantage to owning comes from. You don't need a house to go up in value to come out on top vs. renting.
 

Manmademan

Election Thread Watcher
Member
Aug 6, 2018
16,041
I have no idea what you are getting at here?

25 times $1000 is $25,000 not $250,000.

Not to mention it's...not accurate at all.

The value of a home is a reflection of local demand. There are a lot of reasons local demand might be high or low, and rental prices aren't even the largest reason. I couldn't rent out my home (or any home close to me locally) for any price that makes sense- it would simply be too costly to the average renter. They're better off buying their own place than spending several thousand dollars a month in rent.

Selling the property though? dead simple. And inventory is completely scarce- because the local school district is in high demand (PA has 500 school districts, they're all extremely granular), and the only way to ensure your kid gets a spot there is to buy (not rent) a home in the neighborhood.
 

Last_colossi

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
4,258
Australia
I don't get what you're trying to say OP, if you buy a house and later on decide to sell it you get your money back, you don't with rent. Also your repayments on a home loan eventually end and you own your home, your rental payments continue forever until you leave.(Coming from someone who's renting)
 
Oct 27, 2017
5,870
Mount Airy, MD
I feel like this also ignores that a landlord can (and will, generally) increase your rent every time your lease expires, prompting either an increase in your monthly payments, or a costly and stressful move.
 

Deleted member 8752

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
10,122
If you adjust for these factors, you find that on average, house prices have only increased about 1% per year over the last 100 years, and on average, house prices experience a crash about every 10 years.
All this goes out the window in NYC. Rent goes up far faster than maintenance or mortgage payments. And properties increase in value like crazy here.
 

Darknight

"I'd buy that for a dollar!"
Member
Oct 25, 2017
22,862
I don't get what you're trying to say OP, if you buy a house and later on decide to sell it you get your money back, you don't with rent. Also your repayments on a home loan eventually end and you own your home, your rental payments continue forever until you leave.(Coming from someone who's renting)

The OP is probably under the assumption that the cost to rent is lower than it is to own and thus any money you save can then be invested which would give you a better return over the same period of time. So even though you can't sell it, the money you earned from investing the difference would still put you ahead.
 

inner-G

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
14,473
PNW
We bought a house like 5 years ago (well, put $ down and have a mortgage) but since our area is hot, it's gone up ~$100k in value.

If we were renting, only our rent would be going up. Our payment stays the same and it goes to building our own equity.
 

Seirith

Member
Oct 25, 2017
3,311
House prices are a function of rent. A house is worth about 25X what someone would be willing to pay to rent it for one month. In other words, if you could rent it out to someone for $1,000 per month, the house should be worth about $250,000. In high growth markets like San Francisco, this ratio is closer to 40X, and in low growth markets like the rust belt, it's closer to 15X. But the key idea is that the value of your house is determined by the potential rent.

The house next to me is currently rented out. It would sell for about 160k-170k and is rented for $1600 month plus utilities and the renter is responsible for lawn, leaves and snow removal. So, where are you getting those numbers from?
 

GrizzleBoy

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,762
In London I can either pay upwards of £1300 to rent a 3 bed flat and still have to pay all the bills.

Or I can buy a 3 bed flat and pay ~ £1000 mortgage plus the usual bills.


I think OPs logic is extremely location sensitive.
 
OP
OP

Sampson

Banned
Nov 17, 2017
1,196
You are completely discarding the equity gained by ownership, which is where nearly the entire financial advantage to owning comes from. You don't need a house to go up in value to come out on top vs. renting.

No, I'm saying the equity you could amass investing in stocks is greater than the equity you could amass investing in a home.

I don't get what you're trying to say OP, if you buy a house and later on decide to sell it you get your money back, you don't with rent. Also your repayments on a home loan eventually end and you own your home, your rental payments continue forever until you leave.(Coming from someone who's renting)

You might get some money back. You might not. It depends what you paid for the house and what you sold it for. When you rent, you don't get the money back, but your overall expenses should be lower, and with those lower expenses, you can invest the money.
 

CrankyJay

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,318
Buyers don't pay anything to a realtor to buy a house. Most people aren't going to take the money they saved and invest it into an index fund. My house is worth 150k/200k more than when I bought it 5 years ago. I would never get that type of return from an index fund in that short time.

Yeah but the problem with this thinking is if you were to sell your house and buy in the same market/area you'd be paying higher prices on the next house.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
My dad is a finance guy and he has always insited on me to always rent, rent rent. It gives you so much flexibility to move around, you are not tied to a specific neighborhood or city, you free up so much money to invest, you don't have to worry about land taxes or repairs. It is so much better.
 

Deleted member 17092

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
20,360
I think for a lot of people it's kind of a form of forced additional retirement savings. You can say the money would be better invested, the problem is most people don't consciously make that a reality by putting the difference saved by renting towards retirement.

And then of course once you actually have the house paid off when you're older it's nice to only have to cover taxes, maintenance, and utilities instead of having to still be coughing up a lot of rent to live anywhere decent. Or, you could sell the house, and rent something with the money for 15 years or so if you want.
 

Hollywood Duo

Member
Oct 25, 2017
42,095
In London I can either pay upwards of £1300 to rent a 3 bed flat and still have to pay all the bills.

Or I can buy a 3 bed flat and pay ~ £1000 mortgage plus the usual bills.


I think OPs logic is extremely location sensitive.
Yes you are right. There is no right answer that covers everyone. In my area the property taxes are absolutely insane for example.
 

CrankyJay

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
11,318
Nobody said I was moving. My thinking is not nearly as problematic as half of that OP.

Just saying yeah your house is worth more, but your spending power isn't really increasing all that much. Still, at least your equity is inflating as where money in a bank gaining no interest isn't. Or paying rent. OP sounds like he's just trying to justify not owning a home.
 
Oct 25, 2017
5,159
China
When you start off dismissing all the positives right off the bat, you know theres an agenda.

OP can't afford a house so he's trying to cinvince himself he does not want one is my guess.
 

whatsinaname

Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,069
Great OP, I've always had an issue with the myth too.

Though I disagree with your real estate rule of thumb factors or your strong statement in the other direction.

Buyers don't pay anything to a realtor to buy a house. Most people aren't going to take the money they saved and invest it into an index fund. My house is worth 150k/200k more than when I bought it 5 years ago. I would never get that type of return from an index fund in that short time.

He literally mentioned that in the OP. Even if you compare it to the stock market, you bought Apple stock. What about others who bought and held Blackberry?

When talking about an overall situation of buy vs rent as a myth, you have to consider the average/median house appreciation vs average/median portfolio gain.

Here's a comparison since the recession by redfin (who as you know are in the housing market side of things).

https://www.redfin.com/blog/stock-m...ich-has-rebounded-better-since-the-recession/

Iot7ocZ.png


I don't get what you're trying to say OP, if you buy a house and later on decide to sell it you get your money back, you don't with rent. Also your repayments on a home loan eventually end and you own your home, your rental payments continue forever until you leave.(Coming from someone who's renting)

A big thing I think you're overlooking is the advantage in retirement, once you're on a fixed income having a house paid off vs still paying rent is a huge boost to your quality of life, as well as entirely stable, once it's paid off it doesn't matter how many stock market crashes there are, you don't suddenly start having to pay rent

Not true. Even after you own your home completely, you will have property tax/insurance that you will continue to pay. And property tax goes up with property values/inflation. Property tax + insurance is actually 40% of my mortgage payment right now, and I am just in the second year of home ownership. And as I spend more time in the house, I will continue to spend more on maintenance.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
Yes you are right. There is no right answer that covers everyone. In my area the property taxes are absolutely insane for example.

Yeah, I live in upstate NY and I can get a mortage for really cheap. However when I start adding property taxes, school taxes, etc, the price goes way way high.
 

Hassel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,363
People often over look the ultimate benefit. Once it's paid off you no longer have to pay "Rent/mortgage" anymore and your cost of living decreases dramatically.
 

Mammoth Jones

Member
Oct 25, 2017
12,358
New York
There is more to ownership than a house. I'm glad we own our condo. We could sell it now for about 45% more than we paid for it. Renting would be a waste of money.

In my early 20's I'd have agreed. Made more sense to rent. It really depends. At the time we purchased the condo a house wouldn't have been ideal. Now we are looking for a house.
 
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ascii42

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,798
But for the average person, the ideal financial strategy is to rent something where the monthly rental payment is about the same as what you would've spent on a mortgage. Then take the money you would've spent on a down payment, taxes, and maintenance and invest it into a low-cost stock market index fund. After 30 years, it's likely you'll have a lot more money than your neighbor who bought a house.
But you will continue to pay rent, while he no longer has a mortgage payment. Still will have taxes, insurance, and maintenance, however.

I actually don't have a mortgage payment either. I paid off my house in less than 4 years. Probably would have been been better off investing that money, but it's a psychological thing.
 

Culex

Banned
Oct 29, 2017
6,844
Yes, it's dependent on existing rent vs cost of purchase. But if you are paying 1200 a month in rent: After 10 years, you are still paying rent, and probably more as costs of rents go up. You literally have nothing to show for it, other than making your landlord wealthy. If you are purchasing a home and your MTG payment is 1200 a month on a 220k home (hypothetically), after 15 years you'll have substantial equity available of over 80k. This is tangible, transferable via sale, and able to be given to family if you die.

With rent...well you have nothing.
 

Masoyama

Attempted to circumvent a ban with an alt account
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
5,648
People often over look the ultimate benefit. Once it's paid off you no longer have to pay "Rent/mortgage" anymore and your cost of living decreases dramatically.

Once you pay off the mortgage is also around the time you have to pay a ton of money on repairs. Broken appliances, broken heating system, time to redo the finishing, what about the walls or insulation or masonry?
 

Geens

Member
Mar 14, 2018
106
I think of a mortgage more of a way to force you to save money than a real investment. Your house is a savings account that you're forced to pay into. Most people paying rent aren't saving and investing all of their excess money every month for decades on end.
 
OP
OP

Sampson

Banned
Nov 17, 2017
1,196
People often over look the ultimate benefit. Once it's paid off you no longer have to pay "Rent/mortgage" anymore and your cost of living decreases dramatically.

Most people never pay off their house. 44% of American retirees carry a mortgage into retirement.

Moreover, you can take your additional money from the stock market and pay rent into retirement. Usually, retirees will sell their house and downsize to something cheaper, using the excess equity to pay living expenses in retirement.
 

goldenpp73

Banned
Dec 5, 2017
2,144
I mean, typically it can be cheaper but you don't end up with an asset in the end and you also lack space. My basement in my home is bigger than most apartment complex rooms as example. How many situations can you rent in a way they can't fuck your rent, kick you out, and have equal space for the same or less cost?
 

Hassel

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,363
Once you pay off the mortgage is also around the time you have to pay a ton of money on repairs. Broken appliances, broken heating system, time to redo the finishing, what about the walls or insulation or masonry?

Not at all. Constant upkeep is implied and continued. You are just being silly suggesting it's timed with paying off your mortgage.
 
OP
OP

Sampson

Banned
Nov 17, 2017
1,196
I think of a mortgage more of a way to force you to save money than a real investment. Your house is a savings account that you're forced to pay into. Most people paying rent aren't saving and investing all of their excess money every month for decades on end.

This is true. And if you truly lack the financial discipline to force yourself to save, you might want to buy a house.