Return of the Jedi had a Bittersweet Ending, now it's just outright Depressing.
- Thread starter BossAttack
- Start date
There was enough peace that the Republic was able to dismantle nearly their military to bring them back closer to a pre-TPM sort of Republic and still maintain control over the galaxy with the senate for nearly 3 straight decades after ROTJ before things fell apart.
I can't get with you on this.
It's still bittersweet in context of its placement chronologically. Knowing what comes after doesn't change that.
Matter of perception, I guess.
You did just get me to fire up the trilogy for another watch, though. Really want to see Jedi again now you talked up all-star Luke.
It's still bittersweet in context of its placement chronologically. Knowing what comes after doesn't change that.
Matter of perception, I guess.
You did just get me to fire up the trilogy for another watch, though. Really want to see Jedi again now you talked up all-star Luke.
To be honest, the Star Wars universe just seems to be constantly fucked.
Even if a Sith Lord isn't trying to take over the galaxy, you gotta deal with
-Crime lords and pirates
-Most people appear to live in extreme poverty
-Slavery
-Inept and corrupt leaders
-The various horrible monsters in this universe
Regardless of the time, none of these issues ever appear to be improving.
Even if a Sith Lord isn't trying to take over the galaxy, you gotta deal with
-Crime lords and pirates
-Most people appear to live in extreme poverty
-Slavery
-Inept and corrupt leaders
-The various horrible monsters in this universe
Regardless of the time, none of these issues ever appear to be improving.
I mean its called Star WARS for a reason lol.
Star Wars is you know about wars, in the stars.
Ghost Luke going "fuck it" and lightninging the First Order to death would redeem the entire trilogy for me.
Are we really going to bounce back and forth from historical wars to Star Wars, or is the point clear enough on its own that big wars are sometimes punctuated by brief periods of peace before another big war? Like I really don't want to have to jump back centuries or back to Ancient Rome or China just to say something I'm sure you already get.
And again, the plausibility of something like that happening, which isn't even the least likely thing to happen in a universe that had an intergalactic peace-keeping paramilitary force of Shaolin Monks/Jesuit Priests running around, pretty sure there's no good historical touchstone for that, is secondary to the question of "Did this tell a good story?" I'd say yes, although I understand if you value your memory of a happier ending more than that. I mean that sincerely, this is a series that touched a lot of young lives and shaped our views of who we are and what we think about the world, and your emotions over changes to that view absolutely matter.
The Empire surrendered. A faction of former Imperials disagreed and formed the First Order from the remnants.
It's the equivalent of the Confederacy who fought the Civil War vs people in current times flying the Rebel flag, etc. They're not the same.
EDIT: Basically what Cheebo said.
It's the equivalent of the Confederacy who fought the Civil War vs people in current times flying the Rebel flag, etc. They're not the same.
EDIT: Basically what Cheebo said.
I mean that would be the worst moment in any Star Wars media ever lol. From Luke tossing the saber in ROTJ through the end of TLJ it shows Luke becoming a pacifist to not one act out in aggression and a moment where he considered it is his biggest lifetime regret. That would toss out that entire character arc to make him "cool badass" super hero when Luke was never a super hero sort of character.
Not to mention this Star Wars trilogy is about Rey. Rey is the hero. Rey is the focus. Giving Luke the focus and "hero" moment would rob the true star and true hero, Rey, of her role. It is her story. Her heroes journey.
Honestly I don't really even look at the movies as connected trilogies.
The original movies are their own thing.
The sequel/prequels are just their own thing (separate from each other even) that are more like "what ifs" rather than some tightly connected canon.
Ep IV-VI is Star Wars.
The rest of the movies are just ... take whatever you like, leave whatever you don't, lol.
The original movies are their own thing.
The sequel/prequels are just their own thing (separate from each other even) that are more like "what ifs" rather than some tightly connected canon.
Ep IV-VI is Star Wars.
The rest of the movies are just ... take whatever you like, leave whatever you don't, lol.
I always thought Star Wars was kinda unique because its world is such a shitheap. The original film takes place on a crime-ridden desert wasteland and a Nazi dreadnought. The characters in the OT are scrappy, they come from obscurity, their lives are tragic, and they usually end up killing themselves. The main ship is made out of garbage. The heroes from the past are old, dead, diminutive.
George Lucas modeled Star Wars (or at least the prequels) as a recursive universe where democracy and despotism cycle periodically. Palpatine is an obvious stand in for Caesar, the Empire is a fusion of the Third Reich and the British Empire. The Rebels are revolutionaries from any era, you pick your favorite (George compared them to the Viet Cong).
If nothing else, the sequels are consistent with George's vision, and it's no surprise that he too imagined Luke Skywalker as an exiled, Colonel Kurtz-esque hermit.
Keeping the Empire's iconography (TIE Fighters, Stormtroopers, Star Destroyers, Wrinkly Old Man in Charge) under a new name, without any explanation, is the foundational problem of the sequel trilogy. You could take the exact same hero plot points set against a novel, original enemy and I think a lot of the issues with the sequels would go away.
It was so obviously done for commercial purposes. Or maybe they didn't have time to come up with something original? Either way the sequel trilogy suffers for it.
It was so obviously done for commercial purposes. Or maybe they didn't have time to come up with something original? Either way the sequel trilogy suffers for it.
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This sounds far more interesting than what we actually got in TFA.
Would've loved to see more of how the post-ROTJ political system was built, rather than only seeing the Republic right before it got blown up. :/
This is my biggest problem with ST. It makes no attempt to write a story that extends 1-6. It's just what happens next. They should have just reboot the saga or go ahead 100 years. 1-6 was a complete story. But they wanted Harrison Ford as Han one more time.
...except that each of the characters is emotionally richer.
There will always be wars and conflicts in Star Wars, but the characters are more important- it's about how they grow, not the galaxy.
I mean you need to take into consideration the time period SW was made in and who made it. America was post-Vietnam and post-Watergate, the people had their trust in institutional authority shattered, the world seemed to be in a state of constant flux as the impact of Civil Rights, the Women's Movement, Nationalist and Indigenous movements, the Drug Culture and various other struggles gained ground and found their footing in the greater pop culture, and it was made by a weirdo film-school liberal from California who watched a lot of Flash Gordon and Kurosawa.
Despite ANH's triumphal ending it's pretty clear from the fact that there is a whole Empire with Emperor out there, that Darth Vader escaped, and that the groundwork was laid for multiple films from its earliest conception that this was gonna be a series of ups and downs, triumph and despair, light and dark. It's in the very DNA of the series.
i like it in concept, but the reality has been a muddled mess and really makes star wars feels so "small"
i get they needed to put butts in seats, but they should have alluded to all this - not actually have the same characters back again
they also should have done a much better job showing all of this, instead of just telling us
it's part of the reason The Clone Wars is so wildly better than all the post OT movies released - you get the interesting war, proxy war, terrorist, rebel , etc discussions done well despite the reliance on the 1 family that exists in the universe
i get they needed to put butts in seats, but they should have alluded to all this - not actually have the same characters back again
they also should have done a much better job showing all of this, instead of just telling us
it's part of the reason The Clone Wars is so wildly better than all the post OT movies released - you get the interesting war, proxy war, terrorist, rebel , etc discussions done well despite the reliance on the 1 family that exists in the universe
JJ was averse to showing any of the politics due to the prequels (JJ clearly strongly dislikes the prequels). They covered all of this in the novels, primarily this novel if you are curious about the political background of the post ROTJ galaxy:
And yep, its 100% canon.
Gonna have to disagree with everything you just said. Especially that last part. TLJ was Luke's film all the way. He had the most focus, and BY FAR the most character development. Movie climaxes with his return and ends with his death and becoming a "Legend."
I'm sure Abrams will make Ray the focus of IX (especially now that Carrie is dead), but yeah, she was the NOT the main draw of TLJ.
JJ was averse to showing any of the politics due to the prequels (JJ clearly strongly dislikes the prequels). They covered all of this in the novels, primarily this novel if you are curious about the political background of the post ROTJ galaxy:
And yep, its 100% canon.
I'll give it a read, thanks.
They had the time and the means, as evidenced by the wacky concept art for TFA. It was done because every Star Wars fanboy, here and elsewhere, jacked themselves off at the sight of TIE Fighters when the first TFA teaser hit. Everyone wanted Stormtroopers and X-Wings. JJ Abrams wanted it too. He's an OT fanboy and his adoration of those movies is almost certainly genuine. Same goes for everyone who worked on the film.
As for the lack of explanation, TFA's script is a rushed, confused amalgamation of ideas from Lucas, Ardnt, Abrams, Kasdan, and Kennedy, and wherever it flounders it seeks to imitate. The iconography is deliberate, however, and Star Wars fans can only blame themselves for bitching about the prequels for a decade-plus.
JJ was averse to showing any of the politics due to the prequels (JJ clearly strongly dislikes the prequels). They covered all of this in the novels, primarily this novel if you are curious about the political background of the post ROTJ galaxy:
And yep, its 100% canon.
there's got to be a happy medium between adding Attack of the Clones extended politics scenes into your movie and dumping all your world building into a book
It was handled just fine in the OT.
Again, unless he goes all Zeus and zaps the First Order with lightning, his arc is done. I think JJ will retcon a bunch of stuff from TLJ but I don't think he's stupid enough to bring Luke back to life.
Old EU is still my canon. Except it all ends with everyone happily ever after with the ending of The Unifying Force and nothing that was released after actually happened.
I feel very strongly about this.
I feel very strongly about this.
better than fine, for sure. PT/NT really can't nail it down though
BossAttack, I appreciate the thought you put into your posts, but I've yet to find one I fully agree with (other than I guess Thanos not being the protagonist of Infinity War, but that's sorta moot as I don't have any strong feelings regarding whether he is or isn't).
The core of the argument is stuff I've seen before. In fact, even years before the new trilogy was announced. I was discussing the expanded universe (the thrawn novels) with someone and they were like (paraphrasing here) "I'm sure they're good, but I don't want to read them. When I watched RotJ, the story was over. The empire defeated and now I'm told they're still going on and Chewy died and Han and Leia don't get to just live their lives because they have to go stop the new asshole in the universe? No, I want the story to just be over, have them have a happily ever after."
Or something close to that. RotJ was an ending and if Star Wars was to continue with those specific characters or even in that future after it, then the ending can't be a real ending. And you can argue about the specific details like whether or not characters regressed by falling back into their roles (which I disagree with. Han the smuggler from the NT isn't the same one from the OT and his new role as the mentor figure rather than the lancer reflects that), but ultimately I think people just wanted Star Wars to have an ending. If not specifically you, OP, then atleast the general population. They wanted for RotJ to be the end of the story.
The core of the argument is stuff I've seen before. In fact, even years before the new trilogy was announced. I was discussing the expanded universe (the thrawn novels) with someone and they were like (paraphrasing here) "I'm sure they're good, but I don't want to read them. When I watched RotJ, the story was over. The empire defeated and now I'm told they're still going on and Chewy died and Han and Leia don't get to just live their lives because they have to go stop the new asshole in the universe? No, I want the story to just be over, have them have a happily ever after."
Or something close to that. RotJ was an ending and if Star Wars was to continue with those specific characters or even in that future after it, then the ending can't be a real ending. And you can argue about the specific details like whether or not characters regressed by falling back into their roles (which I disagree with. Han the smuggler from the NT isn't the same one from the OT and his new role as the mentor figure rather than the lancer reflects that), but ultimately I think people just wanted Star Wars to have an ending. If not specifically you, OP, then atleast the general population. They wanted for RotJ to be the end of the story.
Man, could you have fuckin' imagined Luke as a Col Kurtz-like character? Worshiped as a demigod by his followers, isolated from the wider world, drunk on power, deep into some darkside of the force shit? That could have been amazing!
But the previous republic took millennia to get to the level of corruption and apathy that allowed Palpatine to take over and create the Empire. The new Republic was blown out of the sky within 30 years of their victory in the most sudden of attacks.
The leaders of the New Republic have to have been collective idiots for this to happen. To the point where you question how they even succeeded in the first place to mount their rebellion. Palpatine should have had this shit wrapped up before even Rogue One began judging by how inept the leadership post RotJ were.
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For me, I'm only interested in the Skywalker stories. I get they have to continue the brand but Luke and Han and Leia are the heart of Star Wars for me and I don't have any interest beyond that, especially when they killed off Luke the way they did. I wish I could say I was invested in the new characters, but eh, to me they feel kind of one dimensional or something.
Hermit is the operative word, but yeah, that would have been insane. I think we'd have even more TLJ threads than we've already got.
It really is a shit universe to live in. For a galaxy that is extremely advanced and that has broken the lightspeed limit thousands of years ago, they're still all mostly backwards assholes who can't evolve past their tribal conflicts and are still fighting over fractions of a dot.
The idea that a political institution can remain pure and uncorrupt for a fucking MILLENNIA is itself a hilariously incredible statement and probably one of least believable things in the entire Star Wars canon, which is saying a lot.
And this isn't even getting into the issue that the only reason Palpatine succeeded is because the Jedi and Senate were demonstrably collective idiots by simple viewing of the PT.
So, imo, you either have to unreliable narrator that shit so that it's a more realistic idea of an institution that probably failed all over the place throughout it's mellenia of existence and they just don't mention it or else you have to cop to how unrealistic a story device that is, which makes the idea that the First Order can take it down a bit more credible.
And honestly, do we even know how the FO came to be? We're just told "Remnants of the empire", but beyond that aren't given details as far as I know (and I'm not talking the expanded universe details, just the movies themselves). Even if it seems incredible that the same idealogies could come back after being defeated, a plausible explanation could be contrived into the story.
"Now, Luke is truly alone."
This is incorrect- Luke was never alone. There was always Leia to take up the mantle of Luke failed to take down the Empire.
Matter of fact, it was Leia who was the main fighter against the Empire, until Luke was pulled into the fight.
After the Empire's defeat, it was Leia who alone stayed in place to pick up the pieces of the galaxy, trying to steer people away from "empire" like government. Did she succeed? No. Does she abandon everyone? No. Can't do it through government, she goes back to leading the rebels.
Luke goes off, leaving the galaxy alone, tries to start a new Jedi order. When he fails, instead of dusting himself off and trying again, he goes off and abandoned everything and everyone.
Luke is only alone because he pushes everyone away. It is the flaw of the Jedi- when the shut down all emotion, they isolate themselves. That is why the Jedi order failed. When Luke, an boy driven by his emotions used the Force, he surpassed the Jedi by being able to relate human desires. After his fathers death, he become to entrenched in the Jedi way of thinking, leading to predicable failure.
This is incorrect- Luke was never alone. There was always Leia to take up the mantle of Luke failed to take down the Empire.
Matter of fact, it was Leia who was the main fighter against the Empire, until Luke was pulled into the fight.
After the Empire's defeat, it was Leia who alone stayed in place to pick up the pieces of the galaxy, trying to steer people away from "empire" like government. Did she succeed? No. Does she abandon everyone? No. Can't do it through government, she goes back to leading the rebels.
Luke goes off, leaving the galaxy alone, tries to start a new Jedi order. When he fails, instead of dusting himself off and trying again, he goes off and abandoned everything and everyone.
Luke is only alone because he pushes everyone away. It is the flaw of the Jedi- when the shut down all emotion, they isolate themselves. That is why the Jedi order failed. When Luke, an boy driven by his emotions used the Force, he surpassed the Jedi by being able to relate human desires. After his fathers death, he become to entrenched in the Jedi way of thinking, leading to predicable failure.
If want a happy ending for the original characters, stop at ROTJ or brush up on the old EU.
At the very, very end of the old EU, they actually asked the question; why is the galaxy in a constant state of war? (Skywalker himself asks this question, because as this point it was clear that something had been fucked since the clone wars) The old republic had a thousand years of peace but the New Republic died in 20 years and the following govt faced three major conflicts in the 15 years afterwards. It turns out that the force itself had been unbalanced by an avatar of its creation and it would fall on Jacen solo's daughter to bring the galaxy to true peace.
We never got to that, as this is when the old EU was canceled.
Yes, I defend some of the old EU, come at me.
At the very, very end of the old EU, they actually asked the question; why is the galaxy in a constant state of war? (Skywalker himself asks this question, because as this point it was clear that something had been fucked since the clone wars) The old republic had a thousand years of peace but the New Republic died in 20 years and the following govt faced three major conflicts in the 15 years afterwards. It turns out that the force itself had been unbalanced by an avatar of its creation and it would fall on Jacen solo's daughter to bring the galaxy to true peace.
We never got to that, as this is when the old EU was canceled.
Yes, I defend some of the old EU, come at me.
There are obviously a whole host of problems with the prequels, but I don't think ship and character design are among them. And if you want to throw the fanboys a bone, by all means keep the Falcon and the X-Wings, at least they make sense from the standpoint of continuity from ROTJ. I would've been just as pumped at that trailer if some random weird looking ships were chasing the Falcon instead of TIEs.
JJ's work on SW, Star Trek and Super 8 all point to somebody who loves the surface-level stuff of the source material but doesn't seem to get what really makes them tick.
Darth Vader isn't supposed to be a total badass. He's a literal man-child. By making cool, you're implicitly propping up fascism.
I mean his last scene is the reveal that he's some old white guy. Nothing badass about him.
That's why Lucas had to make clear with young Anakin that no, he's not someone to idolize.
This makes more sense anyway, they're all old.We need a palate cleanser.
Having a young Anakin was so strange.
I don't think they were pure and uncorrupt for most of that time. Whether that they were decaying from inside, and the Jedi who were meant to safeguard the Republic were also becoming complacent and full of their own shit. It was a long and continuous slide into corruption. Imagine something like the Roman Empire or the Ottomans but stretched out for longer due to the lack of significant external threats.