PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
http://mobile.nytimes.com/2016/06/1...s_latest_school_integration_battleground.html

I specifically asked about this above.

That NYT article posted specifically says



Then another article was linked in that the nobody knows how the fuck all the money is being proportioned out. It definitely sounds like money and resources ARE an issue.
Fix your link. In any case sounds like more of a reason to break the white people schools up.

But I seem to recall, maybe a +-10% variation funding mechanism amongst city schools.

But if you go through my post history you can easily see I am all for blowing up NYC's ineffective bureaucracies.
 

Deleted member 8860

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,525
Their charitable donations "tax breaks" allow them to decide where their funds should go, because they would rather purchase sweaters for puppies than deal with the absolute horror of the government spending their money on the children of minorities.

Spending on underperforming schools is not the issue under contention. The issue is removing 25% of kids from their neighborhood schools (forcing them to be bussed out) to create space for underperforming kids to be bussed in.

But if you go through my post history you can easily see I am all for blowing up NYC's ineffective bureaucracies.

Going through your post history (not really -- your positions have been memorable enough), I'd half-expect you to support randomizing the children that parents return with from the maternity ward. :/
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,745
Fix your link. In any case sounds like more of a reason to break the white people schools up.

But I seem to recall, maybe a +-10% variation funding mechanism amongst city schools.

But if you go through my post history you can easily see I am all for blowing up NYC's ineffective bureaucracies.

Last time I read up on the topic there was a proposal to fund each individual student equally rather than each school/district which would help to assure better funding across the board. The current formula does not do this and furthermore education is terribly underfunded. So schools are not being fully funded or receiving all the money that should be going to them.
 
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PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Last time I read up on the topic there was a proposal to fund each individual student equally rather than each school/district which would help to assure better funding across the board. The current formula does not do this and furthermore education is terribly underfunded. So schools not not being fully funded and receiving all the money that should be going to them.
problem is this instantly does down the charter school rabbit hole.

Spending on underperforming schools is not the issue under contention. The issue is removing 25% of kids from their neighborhood schools (forcing them to be bussed out) to create space for underperforming kids to be bussed in.
don't mince words here. Under performing means institutionally discriminated against black and hispanic children.

Going through your post history (not really -- your positions have been memorable enough), I'd half-expect you to support randomizing the children that parents return with from the maternity ward. :/
As someone with a adopted son, this is officially added to my platform!
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,745
problem is this instantly does down the charter school rabbit hole.

The moment I saw your response the buzz words "individual funding" popped into my head. If the current formula is not working after 10 years, NYC should consider tweaking it, actually fully funding the program or trying a completely different approach.
 
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travisbickle

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
2,953
I think people are being too harsh on the parents. Everyone has their "for the greater good" hangup, they're all worried about the imagined-futures of their own children rather than the greater benefits to society.
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
You keep insisting that the flaws of the system does not perpetuate systemic economic preferences that has existed for decades. Yes you can empathize with the parents that feel that the chances of their children to succeed in life is somewhat diminished, and I can also do so to some extent.
However, the buck has to stop somewhere in order to right the wrongs of our predecessors. It just seems like as long as the buck doesn't stop at MY generation, then ya it's all gravy. Let the next few subsequent generations handle that hot mess.
There isn't a numerical value on how much one's family earn to how privileged one's children will be. Everyone's taxes goes into the local government, whether that amount is a percentage of 100k, 200k, or whatever. These funds are pooled for the betterment of society, and the resources not exclusive to the few that earns much more than the rest of that city/state/country.

I haven't insisted that at all: I've simple expressed concern at the ease with which people are accusing these parents of racism and dismay at the prospect of uprooting children from school districts that their parents may have made significant efforts to get them into. I was a latchkey kid because my parents spent most of their waking hours at work to pay a mortgage they really had no business having to keep me in a decent school district. Most of my empathy comes from the context of their struggles to make ends meet so that they could send me to what most people would consider a lower-middle tier public school. I don't begrudge these peoples' outrage at this policy despite their being guilty of the ultimate sin of having more money than I do.

I'm not blind to the systemic problems with the way public education is funded: I simply think it is unreasonable and inefficient to correct the problem in this way. Normalizing school budgeting at a state level over a period of time would be a far more sensible solution than this ad-hoc game of musical chairs that is being advocated here and would achieve the desired effect with less disruption to students. We've made it this far and haven't even spoken about the other 75% of the underprivileged kids who get to stay in their under-performing schools. Are the smaller class sizes enough to make up the delta in the aggregate test scores relative to the privileged schools?

"Let me ask you this, does your wage correlate with how intelligent one is? Are you espousing that your income should grant and perpetuate one's potential in life?"

No, though I don't believe there is a negative correlation either. As for the second question, I don't believe there is a clear answer to that. I realize that the pageant-prep answer is "Of course not" but I don't see any practical way to ensure equal potential in a capitalistic society. If schooling is ever made to be universally equitable, you'll still have wealthier parents who can afford after-school tutoring that underprivileged families will not have access to. The short answer: I don't know that income should grant one greater potential in life but it undeniably does.
 

riverfr0zen

Member
Oct 27, 2017
3,169
Manhattan, New York
Answer my questions and I'll answer yours. Since we're retroactively punishing homeowners for participating in this evil system that they didn't build, what's the net worth cap for who I'm allowed to empathize with? Is this form of correction more preferable to you than changing the funding model to bring all schools up to par with these above-average schools?

I'm sorry, what exactly is the 'punishment' you're touting here? Can you explain the terms of the affliction in detail, and its punitive nature? I feel you're perpetuating a disingenuous narrative here that takes the conversation to a dubious at best side-track concern, rather than addressing the issue that there are privileged parents in 2018 in New York City who feel the public system should maintain its favor of them rather than attempt to correct issues of inequity.
 

Mercurial

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
985
I'm sorry, what exactly is the 'punishment' you're touting here? Can you explain the terms of the affliction in detail, and its punitive nature? I feel you're perpetuating a disingenuous narrative here that takes the conversation to a dubious at best side-track concern, rather than addressing the issue that there are privileged parents in 2018 in New York City who feel the public system should maintain its favor of them rather than attempt to correct issues of inequity.

25% of the students in their school district will no longer have access to the schools that they were entitled to when their families decided to buy homes in these districts because the government has decided to leverage their that access to those schools to fix a systemic problem that the government itself created. There's nothing disingenuous about being upset that your child will go to a lower performing school so that kids with lower test scores from another district can take their place.
 
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PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
25% of the students in their school district will no longer have access to the schools that they were entitled to when their families decided to buy homes in these districts because the government has decided to leverage their children's access to those schools to fix a systemic problem that the government itself created. There's nothing disingenuous about being upset that your child will go to a lower performing school so that kids with lower test scores from another district can take their place.
As someone who has gone through the middle School selection process you are not entitled to a specific school in your area.

These people did not buy their homes with that guarantee.

Now I feel like drawing parallels to the TPP and being able to sue a government for making a political change that affects your investment.
 

99nikniht

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,352
I haven't insisted that at all: I've simple expressed concern at the ease with which people are accusing these parents of racism and dismay at the prospect of uprooting children from school districts that their parents may have made significant efforts to get them into. I was a latchkey kid because my parents spent most of their waking hours at work to pay a mortgage they really had no business having to keep me in a decent school district. Most of my empathy comes from the context of their struggles to make ends meet so that they could send me to what most people would consider a lower-middle tier public school. I don't begrudge these peoples' outrage at this policy despite their being guilty of the ultimate sin of having more money than I do.

I'm not blind to the systemic problems with the way public education is funded: I simply think it is unreasonable and inefficient to correct the problem in this way. Normalizing school budgeting at a state level over a period of time would be a far more sensible solution than this ad-hoc game of musical chairs that is being advocated here and would achieve the desired effect with less disruption to students. We've made it this far and haven't even spoken about the other 75% of the underprivileged kids who get to stay in their under-performing schools. Are the smaller class sizes enough to make up the delta in the aggregate test scores relative to the privileged schools?

"Let me ask you this, does your wage correlate with how intelligent one is? Are you espousing that your income should grant and perpetuate one's potential in life?"

No, though I don't believe there is a negative correlation either. As for the second question, I don't believe there is a clear answer to that. I realize that the pageant-prep answer is "Of course not" but I don't see any practical way to ensure equal potential in a capitalistic society. If schooling is ever made to be universally equitable, you'll still have wealthier parents who can afford after-school tutoring that underprivileged families will not have access to. The short answer: I don't know that income should grant one greater potential in life but it undeniably does.

I see, I guess I didn't catch the that you're mostly responding the racial aspect of people's response /title the thread. However, it is still true that this scenario is racial in nature. The position you hold isn't unrelatable, it is just a little cold towards those who have less. I also see how this topic could be a personal thing to you, and I agree with you on the method in which funding is distributed is non-ideal. The method in which funding is distributed can definitely improve, even in a capitalistic society, better policies are needed to improve equity. But overall, I can relate to your position in the manner in which better schools is a commodity, and that same commodity is limited. Ideally, better schools shouldn't determine one's life trajectory, but life is not ideal. Anyways, thanks for your well thought out response.
 

Deleted member 6230

User-requested account closure
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Oct 25, 2017
6,118
But also fixing the way school funding works and calling it a day doesn't solve the problem. We tried that before in different ways and the results led us here.
 

Cels

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,809
these are public schools though

if these rich NYC parents cared so much they could send their kids to private school
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
25% of the students in their school district will no longer have access to the schools that they were entitled to when their families decided to buy homes in these districts because the government has decided to leverage their that access to those schools to fix a systemic problem that the government itself created. There's nothing disingenuous about being upset that your child will go to a lower performing school so that kids with lower test scores from another district can take their place.
No one is guaranteed a school in their zone here. You pick 12 schools and whoever accepts you accepts you. There are plenty of schools here, God forbid 25% of rich kids have to settle for their 2nd or 3rd choice school. The horror!
 

Richiek

Member
Nov 2, 2017
12,063
From the very same neighborhood:

http://pix11.com/2018/04/30/cops-ca...-tenant-former-white-house-staffer-moving-in/

UPPER WEST SIDE, Manhattan — It was an unsolicited homecoming that left Bronx native Darren Martin unsettled.

After spending several years working on Capitol Hill and in the White House with the Obama Administration, Martin recently made the move back to New York, getting a job with the city and finding a unit in a 5-story walk-up on the Upper West Side.

On moving day this past Friday, Martin got an unexpected visit from the NYPD.

"I'm in my apartment but you know – you can't go nowhere without the cops following me," Martin said during the encounter live streamed via Instagram.

Turns out, someone called 911 to report a "burglary in progress" and the suspect was the building's brand new tenant – Martin.

"Somebody called the cops on me in my own building," he told viewers who were tuning in to watch the live video. "About how many are ya'll? About six of ya'll showed up, rolled up on me."

He has a packed work schedule and that was the only time he had to move into the building.

"I didn't really think anyone was going to call the cops on me because I mean – I was moving into the building."

In the live video which Martin shared on Facebook and Twitter, one of the responding officers cranks the volume on a 2-way radio where a dispatcher could be heard describing the call.

"Somebody was trying to break in the door" with a "possible weapon," the dispatcher said, describing the weapon as a "large tool."

An investigation later determined there was nothing criminal about Martin's activity.

Martin says his skin color along with the gentrifying neighborhood along 106th Street were obvious factors that led to police being called.

"As a black man when you're in an all-white environment, you're cognizant of that," he said. "I have to say I found it kinda symbolic. [It's] like welcome to the neighborhood."
 

BMW

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,703
25% of the students in their school district will no longer have access to the schools that they were entitled to when their families decided to buy homes in these districts because the government has decided to leverage their that access to those schools to fix a systemic problem that the government itself created. There's nothing disingenuous about being upset that your child will go to a lower performing school so that kids with lower test scores from another district can take their place.

Exactly, if I purchased an expensive piece of real estate with the school district of choice (one of the most important choices home buyers make) and then it all changes, I'd be fucking pissed.
 

Felt

The Fallen
Oct 27, 2017
3,210
This is misleading, I think. These aren't ultra-rich people, these are upper middle class. Six-figure household salaries but remember that cost of living is insane. They probably cannot afford private school (which cost more than some colleges lol), and they want their kids to go to the school in their district, no surprise they are upset.

Idk if it's all about performance of the schools... is that really a big fucking deal? I would think it's even easier to get into Harvard if you are the top of your graduating class in a "weaker" school versus being top 5% in a "better" school. I guess if you're going to be mediocre then the "better" school may be slightly more helpful but I don't see how the name of your high school matters. I would have thought this is more about forcing their kids to commute farther for school, plus it kinda fucks them up because good school districts demand higher prices for living in that district.

edit: I don't know shit about NYC though. Seems like the biggest shithole to make a living and have a family when you have people so stuck-up about what schools their kids are going to.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Exactly, if I purchased an expensive piece of real estate with the school district of choice (one of the most important choices home buyers make) and then it all changes, I'd be fucking pissed.
Real estate wealth preservation is one of if not the biggest instrument of institutional racism in the country. Definitely the most outwardly racist tool of we Democrats.
 

PorkandBeans

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
604
these are public schools though

if these rich NYC parents cared so much they could send their kids to private school

Tuition to private schools in New York is likely as much or higher than tuition to some of the most prestigious ivy league colleges in the country.

Having the word "rich" in the title doesn't mean much when these people are practically paycheck to paycheck paying for homes in that area and property taxes. You could consider them rich compared to the underprivileged kids being brought in but, as you said, the truly rich people don't have their kids in these public schools to begin with.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Having the word "rich" in the title doesn't mean much when these people probably pay through the teeth for their homes and property taxes. You could consider them rich compared to the underprivileged kids being brought in but, as you said, the truly rich people don't have their kids in these public schools to begin with.
Residential property taxes in NYC are cheap as hell.
 

BMW

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,703
Real estate wealth preservation is one of if not the biggest instrument of institutional racism in the country. Definitely the most outwardly racist tool of we Democrats.

Okay, but don't deal with the issue by hurting successful people.

Maybe you should be pissed that other schools aren't better then?

Yeah, but don't punish me by devaluing my investment. Other schools should focus on improving.
 

Deleted member 4614

Oct 25, 2017
6,345
Okay, but don't deal with the issue by hurting successful people.



Yeah, but don't punish me by devaluing my investment. Other schools should focus on improving.

Your alternative is to hurt poor people. Very convincing.
 

Deleted member 11626

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Oct 27, 2017
4,199
I mean if the quality of education is the same then what do all these wealthy parents have to complain about? Shit is stupid but when I was coming out of high school my suburban township school was busing in kids from more disadvantaged areas closer to our downtown. Lot of parents weren't happy and I heard stories about them moving out to "whiter" pastures with their kids to finish high school.
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Okay, but don't deal with the issue by hurting successful people.
Wealth is comparative not absolute. White people need to loose their real estate privilege to break generations of institutional racism in real estate.

Hmm, so why isn't more being done to improve underperforming schools rather than ushering in students from those schools into better ones?
Maybe you should be pissed that other schools aren't better then?

Because the way to improve under performing schools is to break the concentrations of poverty, average class demographics across all schools. Throwing additional funding at thees schools has not been successful.
 

Kill3r7

Member
Oct 25, 2017
24,745
Because the way to improve under performing schools is to break the concentrations of poverty, average class demographics across all schools. Throwing additional funding at thees schools has not been successful.

Agreed. Although I find it peculiar that better funding, debatable whether it is actually occurring, has not yielded better results.
 

PorkandBeans

Banned
Oct 30, 2017
604
Because the way to improve under performing schools is to break the concentrations of poverty, average class demographics across all schools. Throwing additional funding at thees schools has not been successful.

Why hasn't the increased funding helped? Isn't that basically the fundamental difference between these schools from the start?
 

Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,363
I mean if the quality of education is the same then what do all these wealthy parents have to complain about?
Is it though? The students coming in are underperforming. If it's not because of the schools then you're saying it's because of their homes or something inherent to them.
 
My school was mixed (Brooklyn school btw) and everything was good from access to teachers, social interaction (didn't have any bullying with only small fights), and since it was part of the Brooklyn college, we had access to early basic college classes as an option.

Real talk my sister-in-law is part of the teacher community of NYC and is helping in setting this up so that it smooth transition and what these parents are thinking of being forced. By show that there are other people of color around you allows you to see what the world is really made up of.
 
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GoldenEye 007

Roll Tide, Y'all!
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
13,835
Texas
Define real estate privilege - because it sounds nonsensical so far.
The longterm denial of blacks in this country from being allowed to participate in the housing process. This country gets off and has always gotten off on ensuring as much as possible black citizens and others are denied fair housing opportunities. This has been entrenched in US housing for centuries now. Whites have been allowed to build up wealth and land through generations. Blacks by and large have been denied these opportunities - forcefully even well into the 20th century. So fast forward to today, you get massive institutional racism and an entrenchment of the issues faced here.
 

Deleted member 11626

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4,199
Is it though? The students coming in are underperforming. If it's not because of the schools then you're saying it's because of their homes or something inherent to them.

I should clarify. I've been pretty bad about that lately. I'm saying if the quality of the education offered to the students at the better performing schools is the same with or without busing in kids that aren't performing as well then what is the complaint? The wealthier children are still getting the same quality education they've been getting. They're just sharing it with different classmates.

On a separate note, it is possible for things at home to affect a student from any background that would otherwise be performing well. It's our job within each community to help those that need it. In school or out. Sometimes all a kid needs is to know that somebody believes in them. Sometimes they need someone to talk to. Sometimes they just need something to do. Every single community could be doing better on that front.

We put all the best magnet schools (which students have to apply to get into) in the poorest neighborhoods. This attracts affluent families to send their kids to these neighborhoods, bringing money with them. The best teachers want to work with the best students, so they all gravitate to these schools. The best part is that like half of the students at any school have to come from the local neighborhood, so underprivileged kids who normally couldn't apply into these sorts of schools still get to go to nice schools with lots of programs and great teachers. I might be getting some specifics wrong but this is generally the idea.

It's an awesome system so of course there are people trying to dismantle it.

EDIT: Other great things include the fact that we bus students from anywhere to anywhere if you get into a magnet program (parents might not let students apply to that really awesome school because they can't drop them off/pick them up that far away, removing that barrier) and they're moving towards making all meals free for all students (both helping all families and removing the stigma of being on free lunch).

Sounds like your state is pretty awesome. Those are good ideas to get the ball rolling. Sadly they'd never pass through here in Indiana. Our state government is doing everything it can to divert money and higher performing kids away from our inner city schools out to our wealthier districts. It's actually costing taxpayers here tens of millions more to do that because the vouchers these wealthy kids get are subsidized with state money (thanks Pence!).
 

Shoes

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,586
Clearly none of you here have kids or are into education.

What I understood from the video is that some cof their kids will have to go-to shittier schools to make room for these kids who have shitty grades. If I was these parents I'd be pissed off as well.

This is literally destroying their future so that some kid who is failing can take their spot? If the district wants to improve these kids tests scores, spend money and improve their school, give them tuition. I 100% see these parents point of view and this thread is incredibly misleading and honestly immature.


Major edit: I horribly misunderstood this plan to mean that kids that have already had secured a spot after a successful application would be bumped out of their spot. The fact that it reserves spots during the application process is way different, and I definitely understand where the outrage is coming from. Sorry for the confusion. I'll leave the rest of my post as-is so the response of the people that quoted me makes sense.

Yeah, I'm a bit awestruck by some of these responses. I refuse to believe anyone with a kid in school would be OK with their child getting bumped out of their school so an under-performing child can take their spot just for the good of the system overall. While it would be very honorable to be OK with that, it's just not realistic since parents will understandably always want the best for their kids. Now the aspect of minority students having a higher rate of poor academic success is definitely a major issue in the US education system as well as a major societal issue in general, but I think directly labeling every single one of these parents as a rich, entitled, racist piece of garbage is not a fair direct correlation to make.
 
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Zoe

Member
Oct 25, 2017
14,363
I should clarify. I've been pretty bad about that lately. I'm saying if the quality of the education offered to the students at the better performing schools is the same with or without busing in kids that aren't performing as well then what is the complaint? The wealthier children are still getting the same quality education they've been getting. They're just sharing it with different classmates.
Because in order to bring in those underperforming kids, you have to send away 25% of the current student population to other schools. Where are they going if not to the schools where the underperforming kids are coming from?
 

PanickyFool

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
5,947
Now the aspect of minority students having a higher rate of poor academic success is definitely a major issue in the US education system as well as a major societal issue in general, but I think directly labeling every single one of these parents as a rich, entitled, racist piece of garbage is not a fair direct correlation to make.
As a parent with a child in NYC middle school, who is a minority in his school.

I can safely say that these parents are fighting to retain their privilege and their actions are racist.

Because in order to bring in those underperforming kids, you have to send away 25% of the current student population to other schools. Where are they going if not to the schools where the underperforming kids are coming from?

But it can be assumed that their presence at the school (economic class diversity) will help everyone at the lesser performing school. It is a win win from the perspective of our socialist school system.
 
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Parthenios

The Fallen
Oct 28, 2017
13,649
Sounds like your state is pretty awesome. Those are good ideas to get the ball rolling. Sadly they'd never pass through here in Indiana. Our state government is doing everything it can to divert money and higher performing kids away from our inner city schools out to our wealthier districts. It's actually costing taxpayers here tens of millions more to do that because the vouchers these wealthy kids get are subsidized with state money (thanks Pence!).
It's actually the city that does this and not the state. The state is actually in the process of taking over the city's school system specifically so they can end these programs :'(

https://www.usnews.com/news/best-st...takeover-of-kentuckys-largest-school-district

The state school board is 100% appointed by our current governor, Matt Bevin, then that board "recommended" that they take over Louisville schools. Louisville overwhelmingly voted against Bevin in 2015, yet his entirely hand-picked board is going to overhaul the school system. Fuck this guy for real.
 

Powdered Egg

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
17,070
Yeah, I'm a bit awestruck by some of these responses. I refuse to believe anyone with a kid in school would be OK with their child getting bumped out of their school so an under-performing child can take their spot just for the good of the system overall. While it would be very honorable to be OK with that, it's just not realistic since parents will understandably always want the best for their kids. Now the aspect of minority students having a higher rate of poor academic success is definitely a major issue in the US education system as well as a major societal issue in general, but I think directly labeling every single one of these parents as a rich, entitled, racist piece of garbage is not a fair direct correlation to make.
Because in order to bring in those underperforming kids, you have to send away 25% of the current student population to other schools. Where are they going if not to the schools where the underperforming kids are coming from?
They can go anywhere else. You fellas clearly are not New Yorkers. If you threw a handful of rocks in any direction, you would hit at least two schools. Lil Debbie and Rory can't get into their AAA+ All White school? Big fucking deal. There are AA+, A+, B+ options available. You literally apply to up to a dozen schools. Its up to these parents to do their due diligence and research and have a viable set of schools to fall back on.

Serious LOL at these racist ass pageant mom-like parents. The Whites that remain will have their education intact, and the new 25% will get quality education for once in their life. Win-win unless you're a racist jackass parent. It all boils down to the centuries old problem of Whites not wanting their children to go to school with Free Negro children.