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fluffy pillow

Member
Sep 12, 2018
154
On point. It's become all too predictable on these topics for the circlejerk to run to the defence of whatever TERF has said some nonsense and caught heat for it. Each of which has an audience and thus a veneer of respectability that works to poison public sentiment on these issues. In the form of legitimising the views they hold, putting a crowbar in to ensure it's viewed as an acceptable 'debate' and having people push back on those rebuking them.
Yeah, there's always a reason to excuse the bigoted views of this or that TERF. Trans rights reform in the UK got cancelled but we're supposed to listen sympathetically to everyone who helped that happen.

Edit: and that's the other reason you can know TERFs and gender criticals are full of shit: trans rights reform, the thing they were pretending would lead to the erasure of women and the invasion of women's locker rooms and bathrooms by "men", got cancelled, but TERFs are still being just as vile as ever. Everything they say is a lie.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,625
Yeah, there's always a reason to excuse the bigoted views of this or that TERF. Trans rights reform in the UK got cancelled but we're supposed to listen sympathetically to everyone who helped that happen.
Completely, especially on that second sentence and the expectation of giving an ear to a side whose position seeks to remove our rights and ability to exist as ourselves. Appreciate that breakdown on GC and classical TERFs as well. Extremely well explained and the parallel to Q and some existential threat toward X is extremely accurate when it comes to the current younger form of it. Acolytes to whatever box they've drawn around women.
 

medyej

Member
Oct 26, 2017
6,497
Didn't all the OG RPS writers leave not that long ago when it got fully taken over by eurogamer? I don't even go there anymore because it's just another news aggregator site now, full of guides and SEO stories.

This guy seems like a douche, and trying to peddle that terf shit means fuck RPS forever.
 

fluffy pillow

Member
Sep 12, 2018
154
Didn't all the OG RPS writers leave not that long ago when it got fully taken over by eurogamer? I don't even go there anymore because it's just another news aggregator site now, full of guides and SEO stories.
Eurogamer ran articles by Sarah Ditum, another prolific British TERF, so it doesn't surprise me that they nurture bigotry, or at least don't care enough to check for it.
Appreciate that breakdown on GC and classical TERFs as well. Extremely well explained and the parallel to Q and some existential threat toward X is extremely accurate when it comes to the current younger form of it. Acolytes to whatever box they've drawn around women.
Thanks! In my idealistic I-can-change-them twenties I talked to a bunch of TERFs (and developed a lifelong distaste for it) and the new lot are definitely... wild.
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,408
UK
Didn't all the OG RPS writers leave not that long ago when it got fully taken over by eurogamer? I don't even go there anymore because it's just another news aggregator site now, full of guides and SEO stories.

This guy seems like a douche, and trying to peddle that terf shit means fuck RPS forever.
Yeah RPS is a shell of what it once was, and Matthew Castle was the most fun addition to the video side but then he left too.
 

dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,002
Cool. I'm trans and don't really appreciate derails on threads around issues concerning me and my country, in favour of discussing who is and isn't a bigot in evidently-non-literal generalisations. Something that persisted throughout the last topic and I'm keen to avoid the same on this one.

I saw that "*waves card*" before you edited it out and I've just sort of been sitting here a little dumbstruck.

you're being a little bit of a bully. I wasn't "pulling a card". I feel like I expressed myself rationally. I don't think it's a derail to say these dunks have potential to just be alienating rather than insightful or clever. it doesn't really say anything about tim stone to go after the genre he covers. it just makes me worry the folks on this site will think I'm a fake queer for liking the wrong stuff.

whatever. tim stone sucks and RPS has sucked for a long time. I'll leave it at that and bounce if that's all I'm allowed to say for myself.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,625
I saw that "*waves card*" before you edited it out and I've just sort of been sitting here a little dumbstruck.

you're being a little bit of a bully. I wasn't "pulling a card". I feel like I expressed myself rationally. I don't think it's a derail to say these dunks have potential to just be alienating rather than insightful or clever. it doesn't really say anything about tim stone to go after the genre he covers. it just makes me worry the folks on this site will think I'm a fake queer for liking the wrong stuff.

whatever. tim stone sucks and RPS has sucked for a long time. I'll leave it at that and bounce if that's all I'm allowed to say for myself.
Honestly it felt like you were when you thrust it out there as a means to further the derail. I removed the snark because it serves little purpose but I'll apologise if it cut before doing so. Not sure how I'm being a bully though, when I'm tired of people derailing these topics in favour of focusing on another somewhat trite back and forth, about how X group isn't actually fully comprised of 100% bigots and transphobes.

To make it apparent though; no, you are not a 'fake queer' because you like a genre of games.
 
Oct 25, 2017
3,065
RPS is based in the UK, right? Transphobia is apologised for and accepted widely in the UK so this is unfortunately not that suprising.
 
Oct 28, 2017
4,970
Damn right!

Nah but seriously it's an issue among wargamers, one that the companies making those games are actively trying to fix. Fucking TERFs.

this is a really stupid thing to say. your favorite genre has plenty of shitty cheerleaders as well, i'm sure

Simulations and wargaming (of both the tabletop and digital variety) are some of one of my favourite genres. It is improving but there is an extremely high concentration of chuddiness in both of these communities if we are going to be completely honest here. The inherently political nature of these games (in a lot of cases you are roleplaying as a historical nation so you can't avoid this) and technical knowledge required to play said games attracts over inflated egos who can get pretty far right or far left depending where you look. It just ends up being assholes influencing other assholes unfortunately.

Edit: Like I don't think I have not ever met a higher concertation of tankies or fascists than in Hearts of Iron let's play threads.
 
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dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,002
Honestly it felt like you were when you thrust it out there. I removed the snark because it serves little purpose but I'll apologise if it cut before doing so. Not sure how I'm being a bully though, when I'm tired of people derailing these topics in favour of focusing on another somewhat trite back and forth, about how X group isn't actually fully comprised of 100% bigots and transphobes. It's a needless derail and one I didn't appreciate you seemingly throwing your identity forward as a way to validate and further it.

given that it's right there under my avatar, I don't think I was thrusting it out there at random as a wedge. Literally every post I make has my identity on it; I simply restated it in case the people quoting me to give me a belittling lecture that felt quite frankly tailored for cishets didn't notice. And yes, your comment hurt. It's not a matter of "if."

my point isn't that strategy/wargaming isn't compromised; it is. my point is that we are all here on a gaming forum. we're all of us together in a compromised space and enjoying compromised media, so I guess I just feel like putting any finer a point on it is throwing stones in a glass house at best. it's just a boring dunk when (hopefully) most people reading the thread are on the same page about the behavior described in the OP being shitty.

I didn't read whatever the last thread you're referring to is, so I have no frame of reference for it beyond being a queer strategy fan, opening a thread to read bad news about a writer whose work I've read a few times, and instead seeing a bunch of driveby comments about the genre he writes about rather than anything insightful about what he said, from people who definitely all like stuff with shitty fans, because like I said--gaming forum.

does that make sense? can you at least see why I feel that's a little different from a generic #notallwhatever post? if my first post seemed more generically kneejerk that's on me, but I figured the big "they/them" under my username would alert people that I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance of the basics.
 
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Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,625
given that it's right there under my avatar, I don't think I was thrusting it out there at random as a wedge. Literally every post I make has my identity on it; I simply restated it in case the people quoting me to give me a belittling lecture that felt quite frankly tailored for cishets didn't notice.

my point isn't that strategy/wargaming isn't compromised; it is. my point is that we are all here on a gaming forum. we're all of us together in a compromised space and enjoying compromised media, so I guess I just feel like putting any finer a point on it is throwing stones in a glass house at best. it's just a boring dunk when (hopefully) most people reading the thread are on the same page about the behavior described in the OP being shitty. I didn't read whatever the last thread you're referring to is, so I have no frame of reference for it beyond being a queer strategy fan, opening a thread to read bad news about a writer whose work I've read a few times, and instead seeing a bunch of driveby comments about the genre he writes about rather than anything insightful about what he said, from people who definitely all like stuff with shitty fans, because like I said--gaming forum.

does that make sense? can you at least see why I feel that's a little different from a generic #notallwhatever post? if my first post seemed more generically kneejerk that's on me, but I figured the big "they/them" under my username would alert people that I'm not speaking from a place of ignorance.
It was precisely because it's under your name that it felt like it was thrusting it out there to state it in response. I didn't quote you in the initial instance either, I thanked the person that was making a point of trying to prevent what happened in the last thread happening in this one.

I don't really see the difference though, no. We're still sat here discussing the fact that not all fans of X are Y and that comment about the genre, instead of the topic. I apologized if the initial comment hit harder than I'd have wished it too. I am tired of conversations around issues with transphobia in the UK being derailed though.
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,408
UK
Other games critics/press chiming in.

Tom Bramwell, ex-Eurogamer.



A good warning not to enable these kinds of bigots.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,625
Other games critics/press chiming in.

Tom Bramwell, ex-Eurogamer.



A good warning not to enable these kinds of bigots.

This is positive to see, thanks for sharing them to avoid having to wade into the mix again.

I've reached out to RPS on it directly too, to see if they have a response or at least make it further clear how disappointing it is to see Gender Critical followers a part of their operation. It's promising, as it was with the initial article, to see people push back on the views of Dunt, Stone and the like.
 

dodo

Member
Oct 27, 2017
4,002
It was precisely because it's under your name that it felt like it was thrusting it out there to state it in response. I didn't quote you in the initial instance either, I thanked the person that was making a point of trying to prevent what happened in the last thread happening in this one.

I don't really see the difference though, no. We're still sat here discussing the fact that not all fans of X are Y and that comment about the genre, instead of the topic. I apologized if the initial comment hit harder than I'd have wished it too. I am tired of conversations around issues with transphobia in the UK being derailed though.

Again, "I'm sorry if" really doesn't feel any less condescending. Apologize or don't. What you said was hurtful. I have said so. It is not an "if," and you're putting the responsibility on me for reacting to what you said rather than apologizing for what I have told you plainly I feel about it.

I really don't want to argue like this. I've seen plenty of your posts, I respect you and what you do explaining the issues around games like Cyberpunk and so on. But I also don't really see how my post was any more of a derail away from discussing the issue at hand thank the posts I'm complaining about, and your snarky accusation was cruel. (I'm also worried this back and forth is derailing now, so feel free to PM me if you want to continue the discussion.)

Other games critics/press chiming in.

Tom Bramwell, ex-Eurogamer.



A good warning not to enable these kinds of bigots.


The ex-Eurogamer bit here feels important, given how current Eurogamer's relatively tepid reporting on the Watch Dogs situation feels pretty enabling (i could be searching badly but I can't find an article about it at all)
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,625
Again, "I'm sorry if" really doesn't feel any less condescending. Apologize or don't. What you said was hurtful. I have said so. It is not an "if," and you're putting the responsibility on me for reacting to what you said rather than apologizing for what I have told you plainly I feel about it.
I'm sorry that my comment to you was hurtful.
 

Rotobit

Editor at Nintendo Wire
Verified
Oct 27, 2017
10,196
Wikipedia says this about TERFs:

"Those referred to with the word TERF typically reject the term or consider it a slur; some identify themselves as gender critical. "

Sounds like this person...

There's probably something to be said about the folks who refuse to accept how some people self-identify being extremely defensive about the very descriptive term "Trans Exclusionary Radical Feminist" being applied to them.

But yeah I'm always surprised as to how deep the TERF-iness goes in all aspects of British culture.
 
Doubling down

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,625
Seems he didn't stop with the one comment either.

screenshot_20201108-1m4jj3.jpg
 

Lamptramp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,430
Germany
If you take this Position serious for a second, what does "gender critical" even mean? Is it just being a contrarian for contrarian sake? To be negative and enable Road blocks for people who already have a lot of Road blocks?

Like seriously, what does such a Position even stand for or what are its value?
Does not even Sound right when you try and take it as a serious face value.

And for some reason it's a "always a conversation that needs to happen" as if there are two sides to debate in human rights. Why is it we need to have "conversations" about trans rights yet no-one elses. As I said last night the only conversation that needs to happen is private and between a person and their clinicians/loved ones. Any public conversations should come from the mainstream and start and end with the question, "How can we best help you?"

As if social media provocateurs, and hack game journalists have the intelligence, wit, sophistication and qualifications to start such a conversation anyway.
 

fluffy pillow

Member
Sep 12, 2018
154
The "trans women in sports" thing is always a sign that a TERF or TERF-enabler hasn't actually thought it through and is just grasping at justifications for bigotry. Trans women have been allowed to qualify for and compete in the Olympics since 2004 and yet there are no trans women on the winning podiums, none even qualifying that I'm aware of.

You'd think, in 16 years, if we were so physically superior, we could have produced at least one Olympic athlete.
 

Blackthorn

Member
Oct 26, 2017
2,324
London
Cis feminists in the UK got their clout and immediately turned around to use their platform to discriminate against trans people.

How do they not have the ability to self-reflect and see that they have become the antithesis of the values they used to fight for?

Then cis "allies" who venerated Bindel, Moore, Walker and their like unquestionably follow them as the arbiters of the female perspective and call anyone who disagrees with them misogynist.

I fear, in so many ways, that the soul of the UK is lost.
 

Lamptramp

Member
Oct 27, 2017
2,430
Germany
The "trans women in sports" thing is always a sign that a TERF or TERF-enabler hasn't actually thought it through and is just grasping at justifications for bigotry. Trans women have been allowed to qualify for and compete in the Olympics since 2004 and yet there are no trans women on the winning podiums, none even qualifying that I'm aware of.

You'd think, in 16 years, if we were so physically superior, we could have produced at least one Olympic athlete.

Totally right, and again who brought up the question of sport when this argument is trotted out? The conversation is about peoples right to be treated equally not about some poxy sports rules.
And even if that is something that needs to be discussed the IOC and medical professionals who are are qualified can have that discussion and set appropriate guidelines, not pig ignorant, asinine, mealy mouthed wastes of blood and organs like this piece of shit and his ilk.
 

Mafro

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,382
Given founding former editor John Walker's friendship with the vile bigot Rev Stu and the embedded close ties that much the UK games press has with certain other anti trans individuals
The UK games press scene always comes off as incredibly clique-y so I wonder who that's referring to?
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,408
UK
Cis feminists in the UK got their clout and immediately turned around to use their platform to discriminate against trans people.

How do they not have the ability to self-reflect and see that they have become the antithesis of the values they used to fight for?

Then cis "allies" who venerated Bindel, Moore, Walker and their like unquestionably follow them as the arbiters of the female perspective and call anyone who disagrees with them misogynist.

I fear, in so many ways, that the soul of the UK is lost.
It's the classic the bullied become the bullies cycle because when the power dynamic is shifted or there is someone else lower than you, they become an easy target to project your frustrations and anger on. I suffered, so you need to suffer.
 

Jay_AD

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,916
The UK games press scene always comes off as incredibly clique-y so I wonder who that's referring to?

What comes to mind immediately is probably the Ditums. Sarah Ditum is one of the UK Terf thought leaders (Guardian), her husband a prominent games journalist, now at Playstation Access. Bit icky to say the least.
 

Kyuuji

The Favonius Fox
Member
Nov 8, 2017
32,625
The "trans women in sports" thing is always a sign that a TERF or TERF-enabler hasn't actually thought it through and is just grasping at justifications for bigotry. Trans women have been allowed to qualify for and compete in the Olympics since 2004 and yet there are no trans women on the winning podiums, none even qualifying that I'm aware of.

You'd think, in 16 years, if we were so physically superior, we could have produced at least one Olympic athlete.
Absolutely. This and other Gender Critical 'concerns' like it are always framed as though these things are something new, instead of elements that have been in play for years without issue. Which becomes a feedback loop because it's parroted by people to their, largely cisgender, audiences who in turn take it as fact and use it against any resistance toward the movement. The same for the abundance of innacurate science that is repeated by virtue of 'sounding right' because, for most people, the only knowledge they have around trans bodies is from media that's largely held a significant transphobic bias.
 

CandySTX

Member
Mar 17, 2018
1,665
Scotland
Vaguely related, I but stumbled across the Ian Dunt twitter thread.

Wow. Can you imagine being that much of a dipshit? Hard to do, I know, but he somehow pulled it off.
This fuckin' island. Miserable little TERF colony.
 

Urbannomad123

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
347
Rugby, England
What comes to mind immediately is probably the Ditums. Sarah Ditum is one of the UK Terf thought leaders (Guardian), her husband a prominent games journalist, now at Playstation Access. Bit icky to say the least.

A couple of years ago I used to watch Playstation Access but stopped as soon as I found out that Nathan Ditum was married to Sarah Ditum. Eurogamer seems pretty cool now and the last time Sarah Ditum wrote for them is 2018. The videoteam, in particular, has my immense respect.
 
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Oct 26, 2017
1,032
I'm always amazed when someone tries to use sports as a legitimate argument against trans rights. Like, I admit I haven't looked too deeply into the issue, but I guess I could see there maybe being some "issue" in sports or whatever. I'm not particularly convinced, but whatever. Let's even give that to the TERFs/Gender Critical types as a hypothetical.

If you put "Muh Sports" on a relevancy scale with fucking "Human Rights", the Human Rights side hits the ground so fucking hard that it cracks the earth's crust.
 

Deleted member 13148

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,188
Ugh, I used to really like RPS, but I've been disappointed with them lately, so I haven't been going there very frequently. Unless they address this very swiftly, I'm completely done with them.
 

Gareth

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,570
Norn Iron
I'm always amazed when someone tries to use sports as a legitimate argument against trans rights. Like, I admit I haven't looked too deeply into the issue, but I guess I could see there maybe being some "issue" in sports or whatever. I'm not particularly convinced, but whatever. Let's even give that to the TERFs/Gender Critical types as a hypothetical.

If you put "Muh Sports" on a relevancy scale with fucking "Human Rights", the Human Rights side hits the ground so fucking hard that it cracks the earth's crust.
Was just thinking that.
 

KepperC

Member
Jul 17, 2020
97
The UK is really unusual. Even the most liberal people I know would probably be considered TERFs by those looking in from the outside. Not really sure why transphobia or at least the tolerance of views of it is so common.
 

OberstKrueger

Member
Jan 7, 2018
593
The classical "gender critical" position — really the Trans Exclusive Radical Feminist position, as "gender critical" is a fairly recent term — is that there is something innate to cis women that cannot be present in anyone not born with XX chromosomes. They talk around the issue a lot by, among other things, inventing a sort of "innate violence" that all men have and thus, in their eyes, all trans women have, and thus they think we are a danger to cis women, but really, the classical TERF position is an almost religious reverence for the concept of a "female soul". Classic TERFs have a whole academic structure they've built around this shining pearl of shit but always, if you keep questioning them, it comes down to, "I've got something inside me you haven't got and never will."

Modern TERFs and gender critical people don't come from this tradition. Modern "gender crits" are naked bigotry with no attempt to justify it. They're the Q Anon of gender, they hang out in forums and Discords and on the arse-end of Twitter and Reddit and share their basest fears trumped up into "facts": trans women will replace "real" women; trans men are erasing "real" women; trans people are trying to convert/steal our children. If you switch the words around you can see it's just recycled homophobia, racism and antisemitism, which isn't a coincidence as these people are mostly also homophobic, racist and antisemitic.

Classical TERFs and modern gender crits do work together, and it's often difficult to tell the two groups apart — particularly in, say, the modern UK media — but they also fight a lot, and one of the things they are currently disagreeing on is whether or not they should ally with the extreme right wing in order to achieve their trans-exterminationist goals: classical TERFs mostly say no, because they are still hung up on their goal of protecting women (potentially admirable, but they have entirely the wrong target) and rightly see the right-wing as disastrous for abortion, women's rights, lesbians' rights, etc.; modern gender crits are mostly all for allying with Trump, Boris Johnson, the current Polish government which has targeted LGBTQ people and abortion, and other people and groups on the extreme right, because they have the Q/white supremacist worldview that states nothing is more important than their chosen existential terror (the elimination of "woman" as a concept / the elimination of "white" as a concept).

So it's why it doesn't make sense: trying to analyse it seriously is like punching air, because there's nothing there. In both cases it's a cloud of excuses around a central fear or bigotry.

Thank you for the explanation. Like you said, it's hard to analyze sometimes due to how empty it is, and this is a topic I'm not as well versed in as I need to be.

The dances people will do to cover up and explain their hatred of others.
 

Pixieking

Member
Oct 25, 2017
5,986
The UK is really unusual. Even the most liberal people I know would probably be considered TERFs by those looking in from the outside. Not really sure why transphobia or at least the tolerance of views of it is so common.

I mean, The Guardian is the leftie's broadsheet paper of choice in the UK, and they have a history of printing anti-trans writers. Unfortunately, people think The Guardian can't be bad, so just go along with the message, I think.

Tbh, the whole of the UK's media needs to be burnt to the ground - Channel 4 News excepted? - and to start again.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
I read the linked articles and now I'm confused. It's seemingly well-educated people talking in length about how to exclude already oppressed people even more from public spaces for "gender reasons". And things get even weirder when the talk comes from feminists who has been fighting for women rights for ages and now essentially act just like their oppressors of the past. Or am I missing something here??
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,408
UK
I'm always amazed when someone tries to use sports as a legitimate argument against trans rights. Like, I admit I haven't looked too deeply into the issue, but I guess I could see there maybe being some "issue" in sports or whatever. I'm not particularly convinced, but whatever. Let's even give that to the TERFs/Gender Critical types as a hypothetical.

If you put "Muh Sports" on a relevancy scale with fucking "Human Rights", the Human Rights side hits the ground so fucking hard that it cracks the earth's crust.
The bathroom argument has now been completely denounced and the mainstream opinion now is it was transphobia through and through, so the FARTs have to shift the conversation to the next seemingly legitimate topic which is sports right now. At some point, when it's fully exposed as being transphobic concern trolling in the mainstream realm, it'll be another argument. The same cycles that neo-nazis went through by going from race science to black-on-black crimes, IQ, gatekeeping tech and geek culture, etc.
 

JaseRuss

Banned
Jan 18, 2018
15
The "trans women in sports" thing is always a sign that a TERF or TERF-enabler hasn't actually thought it through and is just grasping at justifications for bigotry. Trans women have been allowed to qualify for and compete in the Olympics since 2004 and yet there are no trans women on the winning podiums, none even qualifying that I'm aware of.

You'd think, in 16 years, if we were so physically superior, we could have produced at least one Olympic athlete.


Won't someone please think of the javelin throwers or the long jumpists?

Imagine having to base you argument on such flimsy ground. Tim mate call time on this one you're done.
 

Fredrik

Member
Oct 27, 2017
9,003
The bathroom argument has now been completely denounced
It was dumb to begin with. And at least where I live, no matter which locker room you go to normal people usually cover up with a towel when strolling through the room naked. So what's the deal? People usually don't stare at people's groins either. And there are mixed saunas and beaches and it works just fine. 🤷‍♂️
 
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Messofanego

Messofanego

Member
Oct 25, 2017
26,408
UK
It was dumb to begin with. And at least where I live, no matter which locker room you go to normal people usually cover up with a towel when strolling through the room naked. So what's the deal? People usually don't stare at people's groins either. And there are mixed saunas and beaches and it works just fine. 🤷‍♂️
You're applying logic, but a lot of cis people fell for this especially folks not familiar with trans people because FARTs can weaponise fear of sexual assault as appeals to emotion rather than logic. Mainstreaming bigotry is their goal, and they're relying on the ignorant public to swallow the coded talking points quickly enough before they use critical thinking.
 

Zellia

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
2,769
UK
Not that I go to RPS that often anyway, but if they don't take action here that'll be the final nail in the coffin for me.