RTTP: Bayonetta 2 - A great game that misses some of the magic of 1 (Warning: LONG)

[Capra]

So I have a lot of love for Bayo 1 despite the many legitimate issues people have with it - its gimmick stages, its QTEs, its bland color palette... kinship. A lot of it just sticks in my mind in a way few games do. But 2... doesn't. I actually forgot a lot of things about the first half until replaying it on Switch. Maybe part of it is that by the time I got to 2 I was a little burnt out from platinum ranking the first game, but I still think that a lot of the design in 2 is just... less memorable.

Alright so like, the bosses, right? In Bayo 1 you have these massive fights against the Cardinal Virtues spaced fairly evenly throughout. Each of them takes on a David and Goliath vibe where Bayo has to platform to get up to the boss or platform on the boss, and over the course of the fight you gradually tear it apart piece by piece until it's just a bloody mass. It really feels like you're prevailing against the odds, and it's highlighted by the fact that for the most part these Cardinal Virtues are antagonistic forces in the stages before their fights. Fortitudo shows up in a playable flashback where you witness him brutally devouring Umbra witches, then you fight him in a sequence where he sticks just his head into a church and tosses it around with you in it, and by the time you finally get to his boss chapter it's super cathartic to tear him limb from limb.

Bayo 2 has giant bosses, but they just kind of... happen? One early snake boss gets something vaguely resembling buildup where he tears up some road, and then you do a short segment fighting against him before his dedicated chapter. For the most part though, they just kind of show up in their chapter. And instead of being these big ordeals where you have to platform around and dismember them piece by piece until they finally die, Bayo grows wings and it turns into an on-rails segment where you just fly up to their weak points to hit them. These chapters feel a lot faster and more streamlined than their counterparts in 1, but the problem is that they feel less memorable as a result.

And that's kind of the feeling that pervades the whole experience for me. Bayo 2 irons out a lot of the design of 1, but a lot of what made the first game memorable was the struggle associated with it. I won't defend the shitty Space Harrier missile level or Route 666 or even the turret segment. But stuff like the first game's emphasis on platforming and working it into boss fights gave it more character even if it was a bit more of a hassle.

So I think one problem here, a totally understandable one from the perspective of designing a sequel, is that Bayo 2 suffers from power creep. It stars a more confident Bayonetta who knows who she is and has more control of her power. It makes sense that the sequel would have to scale things up while maintaining the sense of progression. Umbran Climax, this game's Devil Trigger where every attack unleashes souped-up Wicked Weaves, feels like the natural progression from the first game's "serious mode" that was exclusive to Cardinal Virtue fights. A consequence of that though is that Umbran Climax is pretty much always optimal over torture attacks unless you need health. Against mobs it's a screen clear, and on bosses it's your main source of damage.

It's like... if Bayo 1 is Dragon Ball, then 2 is DBZ. Watching Goku get creative with stuff like the power pole in order to overcome foes with their own weird powers is a lot more satisfying than when pretty much everyone just flies around shooting power beams. Hell, the comparison becomes even more appropriate when you get to Bayo 2's other boss fights against humanoid enemies. Whereas the fights with Jeanne in 1 felt like going up against a rival with the same limited power set, the Masked Lumen and Loptr fights in 2 are kind of a clusterfuck. Their attacks come out with barely any warning, there's too much visual noise between all the colorful effects and kaiju fights going on in the background, and it all just kind of devolves into mashing attack and dodge in the hopes of getting some Witch Time, which is pretty much the only time you can do any damage.

I realize this has gone on for a while but I do want to touch on the story for a moment. For sanity's sake I'll do that in a spoiler block:

Spoiler: story stuff

So I want to talk about my biggest complaint, which surprisingly enough is not Loki, but Balder. In Bayo 1, Balder is kind of a poorly-handled mastermind behind everything who shows up in the penultimate chapter to drop a 20-minute exposition dump and do the whole "I am your father" shtick that Kamiya can't seem to get enough of. He is also, oddly enough, a good villain. He's a massive creep. He refers to Bayonetta as "my dear, sweet child" despite the fact that he has no right to claim that he's been anything resembling a good father to her. He treats her, Jeanne, and Rosa - pretty much every woman in his life - as pawns to his ultimate goal of reviving Jubileus. There's this moment where Cereza cuddles into his arms and he magics some lipstick on her and it's just... ugh. Despite the lack of buildup, I think Balder works because he's a stand-in for everything Bayo stands against. He's the patriarchy, and shooting the symbol of his false love for Rosa back into his stupid face is satisfying as hell.

Bayo 2 could charitably be called a "redemption arc" for Balder, but what it really is is an "absolution arc." Nothing that we knew to be Balder's fault in 1 was actually his doing. Instead, Loptr and the angels were behind it all. Balder was "deceived by the light" and started the witch hunts because Fortitudo told him they were rebelling. Loptr killed Rosa with a Yu-Gi-Oh card, then when Balder sacrificed himself to contain his soul he made him do everything in the first game. I feel like 2 is trying to be more of a "feel good" story than 1 by giving Bayo more positive closure with her parents, but I liked the more fucked up implications of the first game. It felt more appropriate thematically - this whole "fuck the church, fuck authority, fuck the patriarchy" vibe. Like, why does Loptr-Balder even want Jubileus resurrected?

So anyway... That's my thoughts. If the fan theories regarding Bayo 3 are true it seems like they have a chance to do a kind of "soft reboot" with the alt-timeline Cereza from the first game. The kaiju fights seem interesting, but I'm hoping that at the same time they take a step back and figure out how to find a middle ground between the first two games where we still have that underdog vibe.

 

[Goddo Hando]

i played through this on the switch for the first time.

played bayo 1 first to remember the story, and then jumped right into 2. I was miserable and really struggled to finish part 2. Hard to put my finger on it but i kinda hated it...

 

[stn]

I bought this on the Switch last year and beat it this year, it was very good. The combat is good and controls quite well, which was the most important thing for me. Definitely looking forward to Bayo 3.

 

[mrmickfran]

100% agree. I can't stand Bayo 2

I've played 1 like 30 times, I've touched 2 twice and had to force myself the second time.

It's just not as fun, sure they fixed some issues from the first game, but they forgot to make the rest of the game good.

Masked Lumen on Infinite Climax was such a miserable experience

 

[Capra]

A lot of people seemed down on the Bayo 3 trailer for toning down the colors but man, in all honesty 2 is too colorful. There's a serious issue with readability when you're fighting Masked Lumen while a big spectacle kaiju battle happens in the background, and between that and all the effects from your weapons and his glaive you can't see what you're doing. It's a mess. You just have to mash dodge and hope everything works out.

 

[Core Zero]

I love both Bayonetta games but I think you hit on the problems with both pretty well over all.

The best way I can summarize my feelings is that Bayo 2 is a better first playthrough, and Bayo 1 is better for repeat playthroughs.

The first game's issues mostly fall away once you've learned the games systems and memorized the QTEs, and then it just becomes about enjoying and exploiting the combat system. The only real flaw of repeat playthroughs in my mind is the final Jeanne fight being blocked by the flying section, which is way too long and motion-sickness inducing and button-mashing hell. Route 666 is also overly long (but more fun) but there's no compelling reason to replay the chapter other than for completeness. I want to fight Jeanne but I dread replaying that part every time.

On the other hand, Bayo 2 was a ton of fun for me on first playthrough. That may have come down to me lowering the difficulty so I could actually come to terms with the combat mechanics, weapon combos, and Dodge Offset, which I basically ignored in Bayo 1 in favor of pure survival. I don't play action games like this often so I needed a ramp up that I didn't get (or give myself) in 1, so 2 was more relaxed and more fun, and the weapons are crazier so the payoff for experimenting was better. However, coming back to the game after that first playthrough the cracks start to show. Umbran Climax is so strong the game has to be balanced around it, so your combo finishers are nearly worthless in damage compared to the first game. And, as several people have mentioned, the over-the-top spectacle fights look awesome the first time but make trying to actually perform the fights frustrating because of the messy visual data.

My ideal Bayonetta game maintains the combat balance and design of 1 with the visual design of 2, just less busy, and keeps all the weapons from both. I will almost certainly play 3 when it comes out but I'm trying to go into it with no expectations so I can appreciate whatever Platinum does on its own terms.

 

[Kupo Kupopo]

i played through this on the switch for the first time.

played bayo 1 first to remember the story, and then jumped right into 2. I was miserable and really struggled to finish part 2. Hard to put my finger on it but i kinda hated it...

Click to shrink...

first post!...

still love replaying bayonetta. but also really disliked bayonetta 2. it just felt genuinely uninspired & 'mechanical'...

 

[medyej]

I love both the games and how they tie together. I feel like 1 is a more 'wide ranged' action adventure, something more structured like a God of War game with amazing combat. 2 feels more like a straight forward character action game, it's a breezy experience and you can just keep going and fighting without a lot of down time.

I lean towards 1 over 2 simply because Cereza is great and Loki is annoying.

 

[jmsebastian]

From a mechanical standpoint, I think Bayonetta 2 is perfectly fine. It doesn't really expand on the original in ways that make it particularly interesting, but it feels pretty good to play. Unfortunately, Bayonetta 2 has Loki, and his character makes playing through the game an absolute chore. Having to listen to him say "luv" ten thousand times is simply not worth it.

Bayonetta really should have been a one and done thing for Platinum. When you get it right the first time, you have nowhere to go but down.

 

[jorgejjvr]

I can't go back to 1 after 2

2 is so much better in almost every way

 

[Vonocourt]

It's an amazing first ride, but the lowering of the skill ceiling by forcing Umbran Climax, enemies just being able to break out of stun, relying on witch time, and most of the set pieces removing positioning as an aspect a player must manage makes replays not super fun. I also just feel despite having a larger pool, the enemies just don't feel as varied as the first.

 

[Eppcetera]

I like both games quite a lot. I preferred the general fighting mechanics and new visuals in Bayonetta 2, but the main villain is just really lacking and I kind of missed some of the gimmicky nonsense of the first Bayonetta.

 

[Keiriks]

Absolutely agree. All of Bayo 1's confidence and imagination got smoothed out into a just okay sequel.

I hate the story, though. Like, a lot. I'll defend Bayo 1's story until the day I die but 2 fucked it all up.

 

[Vampirolol]

Playing the first one just before spoiled me, it was so good, I loved even the gimmicky shit. Bayonetta 2 should be better but somehow it's so forgettable.

 

[Capra]

I feel like in terms of story it would've been better if they had just stuck to the premise of saving Jeanne from Inferno. When you throw all the Masked Lumen and Loki/Loptr stuff in it it just gets super messy and detracts from the original game. The fight with Alraune and her beef with Madama Butterfly is a highlight of both games and I would have liked to see more of Inferno's weird denizens, maybe have more fights against summons from the first game like Gomorrah and Phantom.

 

[Hutchie]

2 suffers on repeat play throughs compared to 1. Dependance on witch time, worse weapons, umbran climax meaning no need for torture attacks. The balancing is slightly off, i hope 3 plays closer to 1 than 2

 

[Palazzo]

Bayonetta 2 is too streamlined compared to the first, which is a huge weakness because this genre's primary strength is its complexity. Umbran Climax is lame, the enemy design is a step down, as is the boss design (which is unfortunate because Bayonetta's only truly strong bosses were Jeanne and the secret one, anyway), the changes to witch time are really bad, there are a lot of little mechanical intricacies removed that make the game less fun to play even at a casual level - it's a good-feeling game in general, with hit feedback far stronger than the first game's and great aesthetics all around, but it doesn't stand up to the original. It just simplifies too much without adding anything substantial to make up for it. It's still a quality game overall, though.

I really think the QTEs and gimmick stages in the first Bayonetta are really minor issues in the long run. The game would be improved with those elements changed or removed, true, but in the end the gimmick levels make up very small portions of the game, and the QTEs only serve the purpose of tanking your score on your first playthrough before becoming a non-factor (and your score is already going to be bad on your first playthrough because of how big of an impact the missable fights have). Bayonetta 2 genuinely does well in toning down these abrasive elements, but it sands down many valuable parts alongside them.

 

[HardRojo]

Yup, 2 is still a good experience, but toned down and it shows. They made the right call by making levels shorter (something that would improve Bayo 1 so much), but boss battles and combat were not as engaging for me as the first game. Both games have their flaws and Bayo 1 has some harsh ones, but I still prefer it over 2. Hopefully kaiju shit will not be as prevalent in 3, though the latest trailer doesn't instill me with confidence.

 

[Spartacris]

I don't agree. Playing 2 made it hard going back to 1.

 

[badcrumble]

Some people just prefer 2 because it's easier.

 

[Capra]

Some people just prefer 2 because it's easier.

Click to shrink...

I played on Hard and honestly, I feel like the Masked Lumen and Loptr fights were way more bullshit than anything I can remember in 1 even on that game's Hard. Their attacks come out so fast you barely have time to react, and they can pretty much interrupt any combo that doesn't happen in Witch Time or Umbran Climax.

 

[Belphegor]

Bayo 1 has the deeper combat
Bayo 2 has the better campaign

 

[TheGreatMightyPoo]

I think both are overrated but 2 moreso.

The first one had better "level design".

 

[Palazzo]

I played on Hard and honestly, I feel like the Masked Lumen and Loptr fights were way more bullshit than anything I can remember in 1. Their attacks come out so fast you barely have time to react, and they can pretty much interrupt any combo that doesn't happen in Witch Time or Umbran Climax.

Click to shrink...

You're right in that Bayonetta 2 does have worse design which exacerbates its worst moments, and that especially on higher levels it becomes more demanding than the first game does, in some spots - but I think if you compare the first Bayonetta on normal and the second on 2nd climax, the first game definitely ends up harder. And that is the experience of many players, just playing through the games one time each.

 

[Virtua Sanus]

Totally agreed with the idea that 1 is better on replays and 2 is better as a single playthrough. 1 has some seriously rough edges and 2 just sorta does not but it also does not have much interesting extra content at all. Most of the extra weapons and bosses were completely dull and gimmicky, even if I have a soft spot for the Chain Chomp.

I do think Bayonetta can work as a franchise but the lessons they learned seem to be the wrong ones overall, especially with how odd 3 looks.

 

[Capra]

You're right in that Bayonetta 2 does have worse design which exacerbates its worst moments, and that especially on higher levels it becomes more demanding than the first game does, in some spots - but I think if you compare the first Bayonetta on normal and the second on 2nd climax, the first game definitely ends up harder. And that is the experience of many players, just playing through the games one time each.

Click to shrink...

Makes sense. I think if you're willing to go deeper into each game then 2's flaws become a lot more evident. A lot has been said by more seasoned players about the enemies and their ability to just break out of combos, or the reliance on Witch Time whereas in the original it was a crutch that got removed on harder difficulties.

Oh yeah also on Switch they renamed the difficulties. Which makes sense with how unintuitive 1st/2nd/3rd Climax was but makes it weird to talk about

Totally agreed with the idea that 1 is better on replays and 2 is better as a single playthrough. 1 has some seriously rough edges and 2 just sorta does not but it also does not have much interesting extra content at all. Most of the extra weapons and bosses were completely dull and gimmicky, even if I have a soft spot for the Chain Chomp.

I do think Bayonetta can work as a franchise but the lessons they learned seem to be the wrong ones overall, especially with how odd 3 looks.

Click to shrink...

I'm really interested in 3. I mean yeah, it looks like they're using it as a means of getting something out of that Scalebound dev time but I think if it means the summons are more of an organic part of gameplay than just QTEs it could make for some good variety to break up the monotony of combat. Kamiya's philosophy of shoving gimmicks into his games is something I think was fundamental to the original and toning it down in 2 hurt it more than it helped.

 

[Jonathan Lanza]

That's a pretty good overview OP. In some ways Bayonetta 2 is the "perfect" sequel. It gets a lot of things people liked about the first game and doubles down on it. Bigger set pieces, crazier weapons, bigger grafix, all that good stuff. But in turn it ends up creating a lot of unique problems that the first game just didn't have, most notably the emphasis on Witch Time and very sorta reactive gameplay that just consists of hitting the dodge button a lot but also very bloated spongey enemies thanks to the emphasis on Umbran Climax.


Also what in gods name did they do to the scoring system? Why mess with perfection?

I do appreciate the 3rd game looking very different. I think even though 2 is a good game in its own right, it shows that just "doing Bayonetta 1 again" might not be to the franchises best strengths.

 

[darz1]

wow, I'm not sure what to respond to first. I understand what you are saying about the platforming aspect, Bayo 1 does intergrate platforming into boss battles more, but honestly I prefer the wide open spaces in Bayo 2 as they allow me to focus more on the enemies movements rather than trying to platform my way around a battle.

I agree that the on rails flying sections seemed a bit odd at first, but they only occur against a handful of bosses and actually help keep a bit of variety on repeat playthroughs.

I do agree with the boss build ups in Bayo 1 and taking them apart piece by piece was fun. The David vs Goliath aspect is definitely more present in 1.

I strongly disagree with Masked Lumen and Loptr being bad in any way. To me those are the best fights of the Bayo series, but this is only something I felt after repeated playthroughs. Originally I felt the same as you, that there was too much visual noise, that it was annoying they interrupt combos and that you just have to mash dodge in hopes of getting witch time. But having played through a number of times I find these fights to be extremely dynamic, they intergrate skilful use of dodge offset, they definitely have tells that you notice more on repeated playthroughs because the visual noise becomes less distracting and they have more back and forth moment to moment combat. I feel Masked Lumen and Loptr fights are far more free flowing and perhaps my favourite fights from any character action game.

in regards to the story, Bayo 1 definitely is more straight forward and has a stronger climax, but as my views of the Loptr fight have changed I honestly like the way 2 ties into 1. I like that Balder's character is now a lot more than just evil David Bowie. I like that the final boss fight is Loptr as opposed to another behemoth

 

[lvl 99 Pixel]

2 didn't have that awful vehicle section, janky camera and just had better presentation in general. Also liked its limited co-op function.
It is easier, but still better overall for me because its just a more polished product.

 

[Capra]

I strongly disagree with Masked Lumen and Loptr being bad in any way. To me those are the best fights of the Bayo series, but this is only something I felt after repeated playthroughs. Originally I felt the same as you, that there was too much visual noise, that it was annoying they interrupt combos and that you just have to mash dodge in hopes of getting witch time. But having played through a number of times I find these fights to be extremely dynamic, they intergrate skilful use of dodge offset, they definitely have tells that you notice more on repeated playthroughs because the visual noise becomes less distracting and they have more back and forth moment to moment combat. I feel Masked Lumen and Loptr fights are far more free flowing and perhaps my favourite fights from any character action game.

Click to shrink...

I'll admit that these are my immediate reactions after a single replay after something like 5 years, and I never put that that much time into 2 to begin with so I can't speak definitively on the quality of these fights. I think even if you can tune it out after enough time that the visual noise is still a huge issue though. Like, I won't blame my performance on it but I actually have issues with migraines and some fun eye issues triggered by bright, flashing lights. It's just a pain to try to ignore all that shit, especially when the boss requires lightning quick reflexes to read and counter their attacks. The camera also zooms out really far to show off all the background stuff at points and it just feels unfair when you need to focus on the unrelenting barrage of attacks from Lumen.