Status
Not open for further replies.

Nintex

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
672
Thanks god Game Freak doesn't listen to any of you, most of your ideas are insane. You're asking Game Freak to kill an IP they've built from scratch to the massive success it is right now just because you've been bored by the last entry.
Yup, this feels like a Capcom board meeting.

With that said. I'm sure they will mix it up for Pokemon Switch being a new generation and all but that doesn't have to mean BOTW or Odyssey like gameplay. Remember they also had huge success with Pokemon Go. They might be looking to improve the online/social aspect of the game or any other area like battles and combat. Maybe introduce Space Pokemon.

For Mario they didn't even 'disrupt' that much. Mario still jumps, runs and fights Bowser but they changed the locales, added some fun clothing collectibles and changed the progression system.
The base-game however is still very much like Sunshine and Mario 64. For Zelda BOTW they made far bigger changes to practically every gameplay and progression system.
 

Galava

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,099
I am onboard for a shift. Let's see if it works and how they can do it. Let's not close ourselves to the same formula and let them try new things, if it doens't work, they can always go back.
Pokémon has been slowly evolving with every iteration, and maybe now is the time to try and make that leap of faith and completely evolve the franchise. Maybe it works, maybe it doesn't, but let's see how it works out.
 

Axass

The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
1,389
The Mario series is actually perfectly emblematic of that phenomenon, and it doesn't just apply to children, either.

Consider this: 3D Mario games have consistently been some of the best and most imaginative games on the planet. They are always critical darlings and they are always well known.
2D Mario games invariably sell more units than 3D Mario games on the same platform, despite discrepancies in critical acclaim and industry recognition, and are generally more well known to a wider audience. This is a known quantity to Nintendo. That is a result of the simple fact that controlling Mario in a 3D space is much more complex than controlling Mario in a 2D space. That's not to say that kids can't cut their teeth on 3D Mario; I certainly did. However, even Super Mario Galaxy, which made many concessions toward making the 3D series easier to understand and more approachable from a gameplay perspective, is still, by nature, less accessible and approachable than any given 2D Mario game, due to the natural complexities of controlling a character in a 3D space, versus a 2D space, which is easier to understand and demands less from the player as a baseline.
New Super Mario Bros U is much harder than Super Mario Odyssey. Like several orders of magnitude harder.
 

Dunban

Member
Oct 28, 2017
1,051
Not implying anything, I have seen a lot of people criticise the slow placed turn based gameplay of the series. And if they're doing a re-imagining/rebooting of the series, they can take this opportunity and respond to this however they feel like.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: what effect do you envision such a drastic departure having on the series' sales?
 
Oct 25, 2017
4,956
I would like to see a drastically unique Pokemon game, where battles are still turn-based, but they have unique properties like spacing, accuracy, range, etc. However, I wouldn't want it to replace the classic gameplay. No reason why we can't do classic Pokemon games as well.
 

Plasma

Member
Oct 25, 2017
6,682
I'd guess it wouldn't be the next one that's coming out but it would be nice if they changed it up a bit at some point this generation.
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
Pokemon enjoys its sustained success in large part due to its accessibility and approachability. Despite Pokemon's depth, which has enabled it to sustain a large competitive following and a far larger online community, its turn-based, menu-based nature has lent itself well to enabling children, the series' primary demographic, to play, enjoy, and understand these games.
If the mainline Pokemon games were to adopt real-time combat in place of its current system, that decision would raise the barrier to entry for these games considerably.
In addition, to expect real-time combat in a Pokemon game, you have to expect one of two things -
- that the developers of such a game would animate, design, and balance over 800 individual creatures, each with their own quirks and attributes, for an intricate action combat system, in a way that's balanced, and which enables fair and methodical competitive play (a core tenet of the series as it exists today) as well as support for ancillary features like breeding
- that the developers of such a game would opt to omit several hundred potential fan favorite creatures from the very framework of the game in order to achieve that vision within a reasonable scope, thereby arbitrarily walking back other core tenets of the series, like the ability to transfer Pokemon up from other games, build up long-standing dexes/collections, and breed traits from other evolutionary lines into your Pokemon.
It's so much work for little gain. I don't think that game can't exist in some measure - like I said in my last post, I think a remake of, like, Red and Blue, with 151 Pokemon, in that style, would be pretty cool. I don't think it's feasible or sensible for that to be a mainline game, though. As a spinoff series, something meant to be it's own thing, targeting slightly older or more adventurous Pokemon fans, sure.
It would take a lot of effort and time, sure. But they've done this before, admittedly not to the same scale. It would pretty similar to animating all the Pokemon with the shift to 3D with Pokemon X & Y. If they really are making as big of a jump as Zelda BoTW made for the Zelda series, like the rumour claims, I can see them doing something similar for Pokemon Switch. I like the idea of a small number of intricately detailed and animated Pokemon, but I doubt GF would ever take that approach.

Perhaps I wasn't clear enough: what effect do you envision such a drastic departure having on the series' sales?
As long as it's a mainline Pokemon game, and is advertised as one, I expect it to sell as well as it usually does, if not better.
 

Molemitts

Member
Oct 25, 2017
583
I'd love an open world Pokemon game, but they would need to stick with the same combat. I'm really not a fan of turn based combat but I've enjoyed it in Pokemon because it isn't to complex unless you're getting into competitive stuff, which is good easy to learn hard to master is design I really appreciate. Also the customization really help the feeling of building your own unique team. The most I'd want them to change is perhaps having the battles take place in the environment, like Chrono Trigger and maybe have some environmental stuff effect combat in some areas, which is already done a little bit.

That being said I'll believe this rumor when I see it.
 

SirBaron

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
853
As long as it keeps the normal battle system, but also keeps the same finding pokemon system. Only main difference is the map is open. Then I'll be happy.
 

SPRidley

Member
Oct 25, 2017
8,301
If it really feels like a big adventure im all in.
I actually dont mind the game having turn battles inside high grass, or a innocent story (in facy, i would hate if it had a serious edgy story, realist graphics included). But when i play I want to feel like ash doing a journey with some companions through a vast land.
 

Magicgamer

Member
Oct 28, 2017
455
I don't see how this can come out in 2018 then. People were getting onto Capcom not being onboard with the Switch in its first year. If Game Freak doesn't release a Pokemon game for the Switch till 2019 that's even more embarrassing.

I don't think every game can get the Botw treatment or even needs it. I just want them to make a better game than they've been doing for the DS/3DS.
 

Metal B

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,396
I don't agree with this at all. Children have trouble playing games that aren't turn based? The Mario series is the complete opposite of this and yet most children have played and enjoyed those games. Although I do think GF don't have to make the combat too complicated, they should take the approach most Nintendo games do.
I never said, that children have trouble playing games that aren't turn based! I said, that turn-based gameplay is a different genre then action-bases gameplay, which gives the player more time to think and this would be good factor to reach a bigger player base. Not all children (and even adults) have an easy time getting used to fast, action based gameplay and easy accessibility is an important stable of the series (which in return many adult player criticize).
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,196
No, it would be like asking for a Mario game without fixed camera angles, a time limit on levels and 3-dimensional exploration. It should absolutely happen.
The only garbage in Mario games were the 2D and '3D' Land/World games.
3D Mario didn't replace 2D Mario as the 'mainline Mario', though. They are, for all intents and purposes, complimentary. And it almost feels a little charitable to say that, considering how successful 2D Mario has been over 3D Mario, but Nintendo clearly believes in 3D Mario, or they wouldn't have put out two in the same generation that both their 2D Mario games broke records during. And they wouldn't have gone through the effort of designing not one, but two additional 3D Mario games with the express purpose of familiarizing 2D Mario players with 3D movement concepts.
I mean, I guess it could be argued that 3D Mario did replace 2D Mario for a time, but as soon as 2D Mario returned, it outsold both previous 3D Mario games, two times over.
 

Serebii

Serebii.net Webmaster
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
13,242
I would like to see a drastically unique Pokemon game, where battles are still turn-based, but they have unique properties like spacing, accuracy, range, etc. However, I wouldn't want it to replace the classic gameplay. No reason why we can't do classic Pokemon games as well.
Check out Pokémon Conquest :)
 
I don't see how this can come out in 2018 then. People were getting onto Capcom not being onboard with the Switch in its first year. If Game Freak doesn't release a Pokemon game for the Switch till 2019 that's even more embarrassing.

I don't think every game can get the Botw treatment or even needs it. I just want them to make a better game than they've been doing for the DS/3DS.

A two year wait is typical for the first mainline game a new console though.
 

Deleted member 4262

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
3,633
That would be amazing. I'm really sick of the old formula at this point. Always wanted a big open Pokémon game.
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
I never said, that children have trouble playing games that aren't turn based! I said, that turn-based gameplay is a different genre then action-bases gameplay, which gives the player more time to think and this would be good factor to reach a bigger player base. Not all children (and even adults) have an easy time getting used to fast, action based gameplay and easy accessibility is an important stable of the series (which in return many adult player criticize).
Ignoring the fact that there's no accurate way to determine what type of games most children enjoy, I don't think this even applies universally to all children, it's an assumption at best that children would be more attracted to turn based type of gameplay. Even as a kid I enjoyed games with real time gameplay far more than turn based ones. While turn based would allow them more time to think their next move, it would also be considered boring by many. Games without turn based combat would attract children also because it would be more engaging and have action without any breaks and just a more immersive experience in general.
 

ec0ec0

Member
Oct 26, 2017
397
It (pokemon, with Sun and Moon) now has story too (which after years of people claiming it didn't, it now does and so they complain that it has too much).

I assume that, if they developed the story further, there would be even more cutscenes, anime style :/

(i don't really like cutscenes)
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,196
It would take a lot of effort and time, sure. But they've done this before, admittedly not to the same scale. It would pretty similar to animating all the Pokemon with the shift to 3D with Pokemon X & Y.

No, it wouldn't. It would be much, much bigger than that. Creating a collection of animations for premade models that are only played back in 'cutscene-esque' fashion during battles or minigames, like in previous Pokemon games, is a far cry from animating 3D movement for 800 creatures with massively varied shapes and designs... much less making all of those animations seamless and making sure that they feel good to play. Making sure their stated and apparent physical attributes mesh well with their attacks and animations. Giving each creature unique animations for each move. There's a stark difference there. And that's not even mentioning the aforementioned balancing of the gameplay systems which those animations would service. Really, I don't think you're considering many of the development realities that such an undertaking would entail.
If they really are making as big of a jump as Zelda BoTW made for the Zelda series, like the rumour claims, I can see them doing something similar for Pokemon Switch. I like the idea of a small number of intricately detailed and animated Pokemon, but I doubt GF would ever take that approach.
It's the only approach they could take, and I insist it's a valid and sound one, when viewed as a Mario 64-esque side-series supplement to the beloved and approachable traditional games, which still have their place and their role.
As long as it's a mainline Pokemon game, and is advertised as one, I expect it to sell as well as it usually does, if not better.
As long as it's a game that's as ambitious as you or I would like from that vision, and it's got the Pokemon name on it, it would sell like crazy.

It wouldn't sell nearly as much as the 2D Pokemon games, though. The 2D Pokemon games are as successful as they are in large part thanks to their accessibility and continuity - a point I already explained to you, which you glossed over entirely in your response to me. Anyone, whether franchise veteran or uninitiated child, can pick up a Pokemon game and understand exactly what they're doing in a few minutes. That's the point behind Pokemon's design, and that's why such a large change in direction would subvert that appeal. That's largely the reason why Pokemon still, to this day, sells tens of millions with each release. And that's not even mentioning other ingrained elements of Pokemon's appeal, including its competitive and social elements, which similarly would be upended with such a change.

You would have probably made the same assumptions about Super Mario Galaxy if it were a concept you had dreamed up in your head - an accessible and incredible 3D Mario game, slathered with creativity and new things to see and do... it would sell as well as a 2D Mario, if not better, right? but it didn't. Super Mario Galaxy 1 and 2 combined didn't come close to outselling New Super Mario Bros. Wii, and SMG 1&2 + SMS + SM64 combined still don't quite match NSMB DS's numbers alone. And, as previously explained, there are important reasons for that which you need to consider more deeply.
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
3D Mario didn't replace 2D Mario as the 'mainline Mario', though. They are, for all intents and purposes, complimentary. And it almost feels a little charitable to say that, considering how successful 2D Mario has been over 3D Mario, but Nintendo clearly believes in 3D Mario, or they wouldn't have put out two in the same generation that both their 2D Mario games broke records during. And they wouldn't have gone through the effort of designing not one, but two additional 3D Mario games with the express purpose of familiarizing 2D Mario players with 3D movement concepts.
I mean, I guess it could be argued that 3D Mario did replace 2D Mario for a time, but as soon as 2D Mario returned, it outsold both previous 3D Mario games, two times over.
What is considered 'mainline Mario' anymore? The last proper 2D Mario game was New Super Mario Bros. U and was released 5 years ago, its sales were also less than impressive.
 

Metal B

Banned
Oct 27, 2017
1,396
Ignoring the fact that there's no accurate way to determine what type of games most children enjoy, I don't think this even applies universally to all children, it's an assumption at best that children would be more attracted to turn based type of gameplay. Even as a kid I enjoyed games with real time gameplay far more than turn based ones. While turn based would allow them more time to think their next move, it would also be considered boring by many. Games without turn based combat would attract children also because it would be more engaging and have action without any breaks and just a more immersive experience in general.
Pokemon is more then 20 years old and still extremely successful. I think GameFreak and Nintendo know what they are doing. All you have is assumptions and no data to back you up.
 

Deleted member 8791

User requested account closure
Banned
Oct 26, 2017
6,383
I mean, I don't want Pokémon to make big changes to the formula. A bit less handholding and more freedom would suffice really. I'm thinking like mid game of gen 2 where you had multiple different routes to take until the paths got reconnected for Goldenrod and Team Rocket. Also some bigger landscapes in general; I'd even be open to removal of random encounters, which didn't make much sense before but with the new possibilities with stronger hardware could be interesting. I just hope Gamefreak presents something that feels like Pokémon but feels just fresh enough to make me excited. To be fair, just being able to play on TV with pretty modern graphics as well as having the handheld option available will go a long way.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,196
What is considered 'mainline Mario' anymore? The last proper 2D Mario game was New Super Mario Bros. U and was released 5 years ago, its sales were also less than impressive.
My point was this.

Despite 2D Mario consistently selling more units than 3D Mario games

(and the only 3D Mario game to break this tradition was 3D Land, selling 11 million units on the 3DS over NSMB2's 10 million units - in every other case, it wasn't even close, in 2D Mario's favor)

not even Nintendo considers 2D Mario to be 'mainline' Mario. And neither do we.

And we could have that same perspective about Pokemon. There's no reason why the Pokemon game you envision couldn't exist without cannibalizing a beloved design which is still very much capable of changing in interesting ways. A design which, thanks to its approachability and accessibility, will continue remain more successful than a more complex spinoff, no matter how ambitious. And that's fine, because while it's 'mainline' today, it can just be '2D Pokemon' tomorrow. It doesn't have to cease to exist just because it doesn't appeal to you or someone else. Not when it is already beloved by tens of millions. Ya feel me? :p

And for what it's worth, NSMB U's sales weren't impressive if you're just looking at the numbers, but out of 13 million Wii U owners, nearly half own NSMB U, so I'm not sure how much better you could have expected from that game, lol
 
Last edited:

Galava

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,099
The models for all pokémon are already done, they have walk and run animations already. Most of the job is done tbh. It would be a big undertaking still, but they only need to make fully animated the pokémon that appear in that region. For competitive you only need their combat animations, not their overworld ones.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
33,346
The models for all pokémon are already done, they have walk and run animations already. Most of the job is done tbh. It would be a big undertaking still, but they only need to make fully animated the pokémon that appear in that region. For competitive you only need their combat animations, not their overworld ones.
There's a big difference between those models and the kinds of models you'd need for an arpg. They'd probably need to start from near scratch.
 

Doskoi Panda

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
15,196
Oh, the models that the 3DS uses right now are very high quality, the textures would need upgrading, but the models have already more polygons than a bokoblin.
It's not about how many polygons the models have, it's about the difference between animating walk cycles or half-second animations for turn-based battles, and animating player-controlled moving characters in a 3D space interacting with one another. There's a world of difference there. It's not minor.
The models for all pokémon are already done, they have walk and run animations already.
Walk and run animations are nothing. Consider the effort and polish that went into making a character like Geralt in Witcher 3 look natural while moving - not simply 'walking' or 'running', but 'looking', and 'turning', and 'crouching', and 'ailing', and so on and so forth ad infinitum. Animations that must blend into one another neatly and function seamlessly so as to never break the player's immersion. because they don't have to just look good, and they don't just have to exemplify that character's traits and personalities... they have to feel good to control, too.
Now factor that by 800. Now make that even more complex by factoring in how you're dealing with 800 creatures of varying sizes, shapes, and modes of movement.
Or take the easy way out and imagine 800 creatures walking and running around with all the nuance and grace of a third person Skyrim character
 

Galava

▲ Legend ▲
Member
Oct 27, 2017
5,099
There's a big difference between those models and the kinds of models you'd need for an arpg. They'd probably need to start from near scratch.
Oh, the models that the 3DS uses right now are very high quality, the textures would need upgrading, but the models have already more polygons than a bokoblin.
 

Jonneh

Good Vibes Gaming
Verified
Oct 24, 2017
4,538
UK
It's very exciting that the Switch is getting a mainline Pokemon RPG and we'll surely see some great refinements. However, the foundation of this thread isn't exactly based on a strong source and discussion has seen an aimless back and forth. We only need to look at "Pokemon Stars" to see how damaging rumors can be and there's a lot of reason to doubt this one. Namely statements from Game Freak themselves: "If we could find a way to make that kind of setting work with that gameplay and giving players a fun reason to go out and capture Pokemon, then there's always a possibility. Well that maybe is something that the fans want, but from my perspective the Zelda type of game is more suited to having a sword and going out and fighting enemies. Not sure it'd be best suited for going out and catching Pokemon."

It's important to remember that the Pokemon brand has a broad demographic that goes beyond the older, more vocal fanbase. The core of Pokemon rests in it simplicity but expands with its hidden depth. For now, I suggest you keep your expectations in check with Game Freak's official statement rather than what Easy Allies have heard from someone.

As always, try to be respectful of each other. Just because someone has different views to you does not make them a "fanboy".

This is just a heads up for now. Keep discussion civil and don't take rumors as fact.
 

Tribal_Cult

Banned
Nov 1, 2017
3,548
Just make it open world really, it's the only thing the games need. Complete freedom of traversal, ridable Pokémons, the possibility of flying.
Let's blow some minds.
 

Spooksy

Member
Oct 28, 2017
72
All these people just reading the title lmao. It just means 'like BOTW and Odyssey' in that it will be different and experimental. Honestly after 20 years of Pokemon I don't know why anyone wouldn't want this instead of another cookie-cutter entry.
 

ILikeFeet

DF Deet Master
Banned
Oct 25, 2017
61,987
I assume that, if they developed the story further, there would be even more cutscenes, anime style :/

(i don't really like cutscenes)
They all but confirmed that is gonna happen. Matsuda and Ohmori mentioned they like to use the extra horsepower for expressing the chjaracters better
 

gcwy

Member
Oct 27, 2017
8,685
Houston, TX
Pokemon is more then 20 years old and still extremely successful. I think GameFreak and Nintendo know what they are doing.
Sure, not that I ever disputed that.

My point was this.

Despite 2D Mario consistently selling more units than 3D Mario games

(and the only 3D Mario game to break this tradition was 3D Land, selling 11 million units on the 3DS over NSMB2's 10 million units - in every other case, it wasn't even close, in 2D Mario's favor)

not even Nintendo considers 2D Mario to be 'mainline' Mario. And neither do we.

And we could have that same perspective about Pokemon. There's no reason why the Pokemon game you envision couldn't exist without cannibalizing a beloved design which is still very much capable of changing in interesting ways. A design which, thanks to its approachability and accessibility, will continue remain more successful than a more complex spinoff, no matter how ambitious. And that's fine, because while it's 'mainline' today, it can just be '2D Pokemon' tomorrow. It doesn't have to cease to exist just because it doesn't appeal to you or someone else. Not when it is already beloved by tens of millions. Ya feel me? :p
You're right. 2D Mario games have consistently outsold the 3D Mario games, evn when both were available on the same platform, I couldn't argue against it. But I don't think it would 'cannibalising' the design, I wouldn't say Mario Odyssey cannibalised the series staple design by bringing fundamental changes from the last Mario game (3D World). Absolutely, I never suggested it, it's possible for both turn-based Pokemon and the hypothetical Pokemon to exist together in the same space, just like 2D Mario/Zelda and 3D Mario/Zelda have and went on to be successful on their own. Just that, even as much as suggesting a combat change for their new Pokemon game seems to rile up a lot of folks here.

You'll have to be more specific, I can't navigate their JP page as I don't understand anything, even then there's nothing to suggest that these are the 'mainline' Mario games.
 

discogs

Member
Oct 28, 2017
371
London
I am all for this but I have low expectations. Similarly, whilst I do adore Mario Odyssey, I do think that it's not as ground breaking as BOTW.
 

B-Dubs

That's some catch, that catch-22
General Manager
Oct 25, 2017
33,346
Oh, the models that the 3DS uses right now are very high quality, the textures would need upgrading, but the models have already more polygons than a bokoblin.
That's not what I mean, I know they've been future proofed already. I'm talking stuff like hitboxes and unique attack/movement animations. Right now the models are made with only a few animation in mind: idle, basic walking, physical attack, special attack, and status moves. Way more animations would need to be added to every single of the 800+ Pokemon to correspond with not only their unique movepools, but with each Pokemon's individual hitboxes as well as a far larger range of movement that includes jumping, running, and dodging.

The amount of work we're talking there is incredibly prohibitive. There's a reason Pokken only has like 20 fighters, Zelda only has a certain number of enemies, and stuff like Xenoblade is still essentially turn-based. Just getting all of the current Pokemon to that level would require like the entire dev time of a turn-based Pokemon game.
 
Oct 25, 2017
8,115
Now that I have Switch I would like a 1st or 2nd generation remake with a new kind of feel in 2018 (I haven't played them since they came out), and then the new mainline entry in 2019... even though I know this is not happening. I don't think we will see anything radical to happen but I do think Gamefreak will take some advantage of the Nintendo Switch features and design the game to fit also for TV screen.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.