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Scott Pilgrim Takes Off creator criticizes streaming dumps: "Imagine if the whole season of X-Men 97 was out "
- Thread starter Saucycarpdog
- Start date
I dunno man, movie discussion has always been possible. Even now.
maybe people should disabuse themselves of the notion that media consumption and discussion need to be just one way.
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I can't even tell if this is a pro-dump or pro-weekly post lol
Book clubs exist because of the difficulties inherent to discussing a book in a group, which is a self-inflicted problems in televised media content dumps
It's mainly pro dump lol. If people want to discuss a binge show, they can simply form their own groups/communities and watch at their own pace. But that's not really what they want. They want to feel like they're part of the zeitgeist and have first crack at episodes before anybody else.
Small subgroups doing such discussions is not the same as broader conversations about a series with larger groups of people. And more extended discussions at that.
Speculating what could come next at the end of every episode is half the fun. Sitting on tense cliffhangers, discussing twists you didn't see coming, that sort of thing. You only get that for the broader seasons, briefly, before the massive wait until the next season, where most people quickly move on.
And "first crack at episodes"? Millions of people can watch a show's first episode on premiere easily. You can also marathon a dropped show on launch if you want, so I don't even understand what you're trying to imply here.
Partially unrelated to the topic, David Productions' work on Jojo part 6 was extremely mediocre and is probably the biggest reason for it's lack of impact. It has none of the cinematic flair seen in part 4 and has much worse animation and art quality compared to part 5. Naturally, there would have been more discussion if it was released weekly but I don't see what David Pro served up would have garnered the same discussion that part 3-5 did.
I think anime and other licensed media are a separate discussion. I don't think anyone would argue that there's any benefit to not matching the weekly release of a show in another country and in that case releasing in a batch would mean a delayed release. While Netflix's own productions are probably already completely done before they start releasing so in that case weekly would be a delay.
I still prefer weekly in both cases myself but it is a different discussion.
Netflix's own productions still aren't being released until months after they're done and I think you're delusional if you believe otherwise. The Netflix model means major parts of marketing and scheduling won't even start until production is completely done, whereas it's extremely common for weekly releases production to be ongoing when the first episode comes out. Again with the anime example, Netflix never released the shows when the final episode aired, it was only months after the show was not only completely finished but finished airing that anything was dropped. You're still being forced to wait, the wait is just obfuscated. How shows are scheduled is handled in a fundamentally different way for bulk releases, if Netflix did weekly releases they would not be airing episode one when they drop the bulk release now because that's not how this works
That'd be so rad. I'll bet I would have finished the season rather than losing interest after episode 5.
I watched the whole run of Scott Pilgrim Takes off and I'm pretty sure if they had released it bit by bit instead of the dump, that I wouldn't have made it past ep2. Your show has to be really good and engaging for me to tune in week after week and that's super rare in my world.
I mean it's probably better for you if you don't waste time watching something you think is mediocre just because you can binge it for 7 hours or whatever, no?
Yeah, I think that nails it for me.
Sure, I enjoy participating in the weekly discussion or, if I had missed, going back into episode discussions threads. But the core of the issue, for me, is a show not getting renewed or being cancelled because I enjoy watching shows at my own pace. I am not binging Fallout. I have work and college, including a bunch of final exams and a papers to deliver by the end of the Term. It's precious time I can't afford now. Maybe in the summer, but not now.
Weekly episodes gets discussion moving, raises word of mouth and awareness.
It's nice to binge a show I like it, but it sucks to binge a show that I know its already cancelled, or forcing myself to binge a show I like in hopes it don't get cancelled.
Oh cmon now, they literally released it in 3 big chunks, where you had to wait 9 months for the 2nd batch, and then 3 months for the next one. Of course that was the biggest impact.
It's funny how people keep saying its the weekly discussion/buzz that helps keep a show alive and running when two of my favorite shows (Futurama and Arrested Development) were only able to be revived precisely because they could be "binged" after their cancellation.
They were revived because there was a different model available to distribute them that wasn't there when they originally aired.
I'm really not confident in saying that. Weekly shows aren't particularly more popular than all-at-once shows. And an all-at-once model does not prevent growth between seasons like we've seen with Strangers Things for example. And there's no reason for the watchlist phenomenon you mentioned to be restricted to one and not the other.
Ultimately it's just a matter of preference for me wether you swing one way or the other since no metric can give us an indication.
Cherry picked arguments on both sides. Reality is 9 times out of 10 if a show is really good it will do well.
Yeah, that's fair. I was under the impression that Netflix for example even if they do weekly would wait till the whole series is done either way so them doing a batch release is faster than weekly releases would be as opposed when they license media from another country that still does weekly regardless of what netflix does.
I really don't agree. I still see discussion and mentions of Edgerunners which was batch dropped on the same platform. As long as the quality is there people will care. Unfortunately the people in charge of the ip felt it wasn't worth the time and resources and the result was a subpar adaption that came and went.
Usually, yeah. But I'm much more likely to slog through something for the good bits if all those bits are available to me upfront. I was enjoying X-Men 97, but around ep3 I started to get a bit bored, by the time I finished ep5 I wasn't interested in thinking about it anymore or continuing on. It's super likely I would have pushed passed those feelings if I could have knocked them all out in a weekend or something. X-Men got a bit further than normal cause I have love for the original series. Most weekly release series get dropped by week 2 for me.
My issue with Netflix's binge model is that they snuff out so many shows that aren't immediate hits. As others have cited ITT, some huge shows built up an audience over time and were not mega-hits right out of the gate. It makes you wonder how much potential money Netflix might be leaving on the table by expecting audiences to binge a whole show as soon as it drops.
Exactly. Most people want to watch at their own pace. And then some people want everyone to watch at their pace only, so they can keep up with the "zeitgeist." More and more it just comes off as selfish FOMO.
Yet to see any data that weekly shows actually get more eyes total than dumps. Do people really think White Lotus would've got buried if it was released in a batch?
Don't you think the Netflix model would actually be better for this? Shows with a slow start take weeks to catch people's interest on a drip feed model and people are going to stop watching. If the whole season is there from the beginning, more people are going to push through a bit to see if the next episode improves and you'll have people from the beginning able to promise everyone it gets "good."
The only difference is that things that take weeks to get buzz will have buzz from the beginning. Things that never get "better" will fail to generate interest under either model and will get cancelled by basically any company regardless. Where are all these examples of other streaming providers dragging out a poor performing show for seasons?
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What recent shows are you thinking of that a) aren't on linear networks and b) didn't have initial ratings worthy of renewal? I'm hard-pressed to think of a recent, streaming-only weekly release, that had ratings so different by the end of a season compared to the beginning that it would have materially affected its renewal chances.
White Lotus is an interesting example though, because I think a great deal of what makes that show fun is the week-to-week theorizing and discussion. A good show isn't any less good for being released all at once, but I do think there's something to be said for giving audiences time to digest them when there are a lot of moving parts and mysteries. It's not so essential that it makes a show worse if it releases all at once or if you come to it late and binge it, but not having all the answers immediately can be part of the fun. There's a participatory element that can spawn a lot of good (and terrible, but often at least fun to look back on) discussion and engagement with a show.
I recently watched Fallout, which dropped all at once, and I still had a great time. It's clearly doing quite well, too, so it's hard to say the binge model harmed it. But I can't help but wonder how it would've been received as a weekly show, just because of how well it handled its setups and payoffs.
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Fallout would have been so much better if it were released weekly.
This is a weird complaint but I got so tired of the "old timey" music by the time I finished watching the season. I like the music but there was just too much of it.
This is a weird complaint but I got so tired of the "old timey" music by the time I finished watching the season. I like the music but there was just too much of it.
Can you acknowledge that insisting the entire show is available at once, therefore eliminating all possibility that the people you describe as selfish get to participate in the paced conversation they enjoy…when you could simply wait a couple of months and *still* enjoy it at your own preferred pace…is selfish? It is such a weird argument to make lol. You could just wait a little while and then everybody wins, but no, it's team weekly that is selfish, it's team weekly that has FOMO. Okay.
And yes, White Lotus is a perfect example of a show that benefited, and was a more enjoyable experience, because of its weekly schedule.
Netflix has this whole "organic marketing" idea that shows don't need excessive marketing, because "good shows will be successful either way" and it's absolutely mind-boggling how the binge-model works completely against it.
I don't think there is a recent TV show that benefitted more from weekly releases than White Lotus though.
The thing about weekly releases is that they're better for pretty much everyone. Better for the people making the show, that get a larger 8-week window of the show being heavily featured in the main page to attract more viewers, for fans since it means more people watching = more chances it's renewed and for the services that can get two/three month subscriptions out of it. The binge model has only served to bury plenty of shows under a deluge of content.
The One Piece show comes to mind. It's the live-action adaptation of one of the most popular pieces of media ever. It came out, people said "it's good/ok" and that was it. Back to the binge bin.
It is some real Veruca Salt impetuousness, "But I want it NOW," that's the entire argument
Ya but as someone who fucking hates waiting weeks I usually wait until it's all out which means the internet is now a fucking minefield for anything popular.
I honestly think personal viewing preference is irrelevant to the argument anyways.
Bingeing or watching week to week are both fine viewing experiences, and different strokes for different folks, but a CONTENT DUMP is just a horrible model for building an audience.
That's what the Scott Pilgrim creator is talking about. He has no problem with people watching his show all at once, but it being released all at once resulted in less people watching his show.
I don't think we have any evidence that these shows that got "buried" would have done any better under a different model. We do have evidence of things that were on a weekly model getting massive boosts from Netflix, though there are a few factors at play there for something like Breaking Bad.
When the argument essentially boils down to "I want to be in on the zeitgeist so I don't want anyone to watch it faster than me" then... yeah. It was only a matter of time.
Yeah, but then it goes back to weekly giving the consumer more options. You can still wait til it's all out and avoid the internet talking about it so you can binge, and you can also watch it week to week and join in on the discussion as it happens if you prefer.
In my experience with binging people really only talk about the big moments. Which isn't too bad tbh even though I like the small things, but you also miss a lot mystery and intrigue, the theory crafting, basically all the things that can make it exciting to talk about a series. I think about how it stuff like the new Ultmate Spider-Man comic or manga like One Piece were to drop content as full arcs instead of issue by issue/chapter by chapter…and it would just kill the community of those things.
I'm aware "fandom" or the community doesn't interest everyone, and that's valid. Just for me personally, I gotta go weekly if given a choice
Since we don't have renewal data on which helps shows more concerning "weekly vs dump", both arguments are inherently "selfish".
Like let's be real, that's all this 9 page thread is:
People couching their selfish desires in a pseudo-objective framework.
This thread is just two camps of people, who don't want to deal with the internet ruining their enjoyment of media. And that is a VERY valid desire.
I just wish both camps can see how cyclical this argument is.
Like let's be real, that's all this 9 page thread is:
People couching their selfish desires in a pseudo-objective framework.
Eh, that's the same argument as "binge model provides consumer with more options. You can still watch at your own pace and avoid the internet talking about it, and you can also watch ahead and join in on the discussion as it's happening."
This thread is just two camps of people, who don't want to deal with the internet ruining their enjoyment of media. And that is a VERY valid desire.
I just wish both camps can see how cyclical this argument is.
I was referencing shows that existed prior to streaming and had been previously mentioned in this thread, like Seinfeld and Breaking Bad. I can't cite any streaming originals with a weekly release whose audience has demonstrably grown because (a) none of the streaming services with a weekly release model have been in the game as long as Netflix and (b) none of these streaming services are forthcoming with their real numbers — which creates a serious blind spot in these discussions.
But it's not the same. I'm not gonna sit here and pretend discussing a show that some people have already seen all of by the time I've watched the first episode is the same as discussing a show that only releases one episode a week. The whole thing is different, people are more or less on the same page with a weekly show if you actually watch it weekly. With a binge I could be speculating on what will happen after ep 3 and the person I'm talking to has already seen the entire thing.
One model I prefer because of my own taste. I'm not out here acting like it's the only way
OTOH without Netflix the industry is practically dead so there is also that.
Netflix is what put the industry in the bad state it is today.
Some other comments from Braly:
View: https://twitter.com/Radrappy/status/1780349784810791072
Don't be surprised if your fav doesn't get another season because of this release format. The binge format can work with HUGE shows but it is usually a death sentence for anything without a baked in audience.
View: https://twitter.com/Radrappy/status/1780350482591965683
100%. At least with the weekly format you can attempt to build an audience and grow momentum. With a binge you have maybe one week to achieve the impossible.
Feels like the grass is greener on the other side sometimes in this argument. Weekly shows also got cancelled what felt insanely fast sometimes before their run ended, so it is not like shows getting cancelled fast started with the binge model. Shows just bomb sometimes.
The industry was in an awful place before streaming. Insanely overpriced cable packages with hundreds of channels no one gives a shit about. 90% of shows aimed at boomers. Don't even get me started on the commercials.
View: https://youtu.be/Jx8F5Imd8A8?si=b01WEaCQF8M_rdHZ
Streaming killing the mid budget movie. It's the reason Hollywood is just pushing endless event films and proven IP these days
While TV is a different beast, it's obviously had impact there too.
It was a sustainable business though where as streaming is showing it's not under its current pricing model not to mention how streaming wrecked the multiple tiers of revenue that made the business sustainable before. The industry is worse off today than it was before streaming came around because of how Netflix has negatively impacted things. Don't confuse how people threw money at unsustainable level of content that we got for a brief period as the industry being in a good spot.
Weekly is just superior.
And here's the thing, for those who like to binge-watch seasons, all they have to do is wait for the season to end.
Then you have the post-season reflection discussions from the audience who watched weekly AND the further discussions/impressions from binge-watchers, extending the zeitgeist of a show beyond its finale.
And here's the thing, for those who like to binge-watch seasons, all they have to do is wait for the season to end.
Then you have the post-season reflection discussions from the audience who watched weekly AND the further discussions/impressions from binge-watchers, extending the zeitgeist of a show beyond its finale.
Weekly seems to be better for creators, like it gives their shows more of a chance to catch on. I like the option to binge watch stuff but then what I find is if I want to discuss it, it's hard because there are so many people who will watch a series in like a day or two and the discussion has already progressed so far. It's the same thing with games, people will finish a 30 hour game in 2 days and you're trying to navigate between that conversation and other people who are all at different points. I prefer it to where it's a more equal playing field, where you have more time to jump in where everyone else is..
The thing with that is I feel like that makes discussion harder, your discussion just going into it is competing with people who are like, theorizing about what the show meant as a whole, waiting like that puts you on the backfoot in some instances.
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I don't know it was still sustainable back then. It was up until that point yes but there is a reason people dumped it en masse. The price was insane and you watched endless ads. I do agree all that VC money skewed things significantly and prices need to go up.
It was being dumped quickly due to the rise of Netflix streaming. The mass migration of people didn't happen before streaming was an option because people still wanted to watch TV. As much as people hate ads, ads is part of the reason their favorite show was sustainable which is because the ads subsidized the revenue for that show directly. Netflix disrupted everything and put it into the unsustainable situation it is today.