some of the reactions here to the quote are crazy. some of you act like Bryan O'Malley insulted you personally.
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Scott Pilgrim Takes Off creator criticizes streaming dumps: "Imagine if the whole season of X-Men 97 was out "
- Thread starter Saucycarpdog
- Start date
Yeah but streaming is also what pumped up TV budgets. S1 Game of Thrones budget was seen as exorbitant at $6m per episode and, these days, that's just a normal budget for a show without significant production values.
Which is the thing that doesn't get discussed- most of the shows that aren't getting watched, that are getting canceled, etc only exist because of streaming to begin with. Studios wouldn't be spending this kind of money and waiting years between seasons using the old linear model. A show like Fallout wouldn't exist without streaming. X-Men '97 doesn't get revived unless Disney is trying to fill their streaming service with a steady of supply of content. Scott Pilgrim completely bombed theatrically and killed that IP in its tracks and no one would have looked twice at it again if it wasn't for streamers trying to rapidly fill their platforms with shows and being willing to revive any IP no matter how obscure or how successful.
I think it's easy to argue that streaming is a net negative to the film industry but in terms of TV it isn't nearly as clear cut. At least to the consumer. There is a much better argument that it's a net negative to the industry creatives because of shrinking writer's rooms, extended delays between seasons, loss of syndication residuals, and other after-markets.
Considering that I find most weekly discussions of entertainment online insufferable, I kind of like a huge dump of episodes all at once.
Most of the time, the discourse of the weekly stuff is overly jaded, cynical, and pessimistic, with folks complaining about certain plot points that may simply be laying the groundwork for payoffs in later episodes, and a little patience could go a long way. I can't tell you how many times I'd watch an episode of some show or another, and I really enjoyed it, so decided to pop online to see what folks here and elsewhere were saying about it, and it was largely dominated by discussion about how "awful" and "dogshit" the latest episode was. To the point where I was like, "Am I watching the same show, or do I just have terrible taste in entertainment?"
I ultimately decided to just watch the shows myself, on my own time, before engaging in any discourse about it, if at all, and because of that, I prefer to be able to just watch all the episodes at once over the course of a few days, instead of waiting every week.
I'm currently waiting for Shogun and X-Men to finish their seasons before I continue watching them, just so I can sit down over the weekend and get through them all.
In either case, I don't see an issue with either full season dumps or weekly. I have no problems waiting for a full season to finish before binging the whole show, but I certainly don't mind if they opt to release the full season all at once. I'm a patient dude, and it's not like there aren't a ton of other things to watch, play, or read while I wait for a show's season to conclude.
Maybe I'm just an old man showing my age, because growing up in the 80's and 90's, I didn't mind too much the weekly wait. 1, because we didn't have much of a choice, but also because a lot of shows back then weren't really structured as over-arching narratives following a core throughline outside of a base premise. Some shows, like the X-Files, were still very episodic, even though it had a grander story stretched across multiple seasons. Most shows were "villain of the week" type affairs, where all plot threads were wrapped up in that episode, so missing an episode usually didn't mean you were missing some key event in the story (and most advertising back then would blatantly tell you "This next episode changes EVERYTHING!"
With modern shows being more serialized, and having stronger throughline plots, the wait between episodes becomes much harder, since you obviously want to know where the cliffhanger of the episode goes.
it's all subjective, and I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do it, personally. And like I said, I can wait until more episodes are out, or for the full season to be complete before watching. It's not a big deal to me either way.
Most of the time, the discourse of the weekly stuff is overly jaded, cynical, and pessimistic, with folks complaining about certain plot points that may simply be laying the groundwork for payoffs in later episodes, and a little patience could go a long way. I can't tell you how many times I'd watch an episode of some show or another, and I really enjoyed it, so decided to pop online to see what folks here and elsewhere were saying about it, and it was largely dominated by discussion about how "awful" and "dogshit" the latest episode was. To the point where I was like, "Am I watching the same show, or do I just have terrible taste in entertainment?"
I ultimately decided to just watch the shows myself, on my own time, before engaging in any discourse about it, if at all, and because of that, I prefer to be able to just watch all the episodes at once over the course of a few days, instead of waiting every week.
I'm currently waiting for Shogun and X-Men to finish their seasons before I continue watching them, just so I can sit down over the weekend and get through them all.
In either case, I don't see an issue with either full season dumps or weekly. I have no problems waiting for a full season to finish before binging the whole show, but I certainly don't mind if they opt to release the full season all at once. I'm a patient dude, and it's not like there aren't a ton of other things to watch, play, or read while I wait for a show's season to conclude.
Maybe I'm just an old man showing my age, because growing up in the 80's and 90's, I didn't mind too much the weekly wait. 1, because we didn't have much of a choice, but also because a lot of shows back then weren't really structured as over-arching narratives following a core throughline outside of a base premise. Some shows, like the X-Files, were still very episodic, even though it had a grander story stretched across multiple seasons. Most shows were "villain of the week" type affairs, where all plot threads were wrapped up in that episode, so missing an episode usually didn't mean you were missing some key event in the story (and most advertising back then would blatantly tell you "This next episode changes EVERYTHING!"
With modern shows being more serialized, and having stronger throughline plots, the wait between episodes becomes much harder, since you obviously want to know where the cliffhanger of the episode goes.
it's all subjective, and I don't think there's a right or wrong way to do it, personally. And like I said, I can wait until more episodes are out, or for the full season to be complete before watching. It's not a big deal to me either way.
FYI the show's creator and the person who said the quote in the OP is not Bryan O'Malley, it's BenDavid Grabinski
I love weekly much more than Netflix style, because of two things:
1. You have days to think about each episode separately, guess what will happen to characters and story and make good discussions about it with others.
2. You have a week to watch each episode, so the danger of being spoiled is much less than Netflix style, which many people watch all episodes in 2,3 days and then they talk about everything and spoil story and ending, when you just reached episode 2!
1. You have days to think about each episode separately, guess what will happen to characters and story and make good discussions about it with others.
2. You have a week to watch each episode, so the danger of being spoiled is much less than Netflix style, which many people watch all episodes in 2,3 days and then they talk about everything and spoil story and ending, when you just reached episode 2!
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Have we really got so little to worry about these days? If people don't want to watch the whole thing, they don't have to. If people prefer a weekly episode drop then they are now able to watch one episode per week. It just takes a modicum of self control. Oh right, there's the issue.
You could make the same argument about people simply being patient enough to wait for the end of a season to marathon it.
Weekly episode drops aren't important because of individual desires to watch it weekly, it's about the environment of discussion that comes with discussing the latest episode every week. That simply can't be matched in a batch drop.
I mean nobody here is like, losing sleep over this, it's a topic on a discussion forum. Just a weird way to frame it that people are "worried". If we were only allowed to post things we were worried about, we'd lose out on a lot of discussion topics, like peoples favorite shows or foods or what have you.
Yeah, the binge model has serious downsides and the good parts barely make good for that. It deprives shows of their chance to grow over time and makes the timeframe in which they are relevant increasingly short. Weekly releases can keep a show in the consciousness for the duration of its run and promotes discourse. It also becomes a more 'communal' thing, where everybody is kind of following the show at the same pace. It also asks for so many releases, that good stuff can just be drowned in the volume.
Personally I find I'll more quickly start a show when it's a weekly release, and will be more likely to keep up with it. It becomes a sort of appointment every week I honor, while with many shows that are released in full day 1 I find myself falling of after a few episodes because there isn't that 'tuesdays is Shogun-day'-feeling. Also, a lesser episode in a weekly show hurts less than when it's a binge-release, where it might hurt the intention to keep watching more. And lastly, it can be daunting to have all 8 or 10 episodes immediately available. It immediately feels like a huge investment. I have every intention to watch 3 Body Problem and Fallout for instance, but haven't started both because (and this is irrational, I know) I feel like I'll have to finish them in a few days, which I haven't found the time for yet. I know that when I start them now, I'll probably only watch an episode every few days and probably never make it to the end. (Again, completely irrational).
But I understand people that love binging. I did it too in the early days of Netflix or with DVD-sets. Certain shows do lend them for it too, and I believe some could still be released this way. (I also must say I appreciate how some shows here in Belgium are released in a sort of hybrid manner, where the full show is put on a co-producing streamer while it airs weekly on tv. A crime show I worked on for instance had weekly releases on sunday, drawing an older and family demographic, but was fully released day and date with the first broadcast on the broadcasters platform, where it drew a younger demographic we probably would've lost with pure weekly releases)
Personally I find I'll more quickly start a show when it's a weekly release, and will be more likely to keep up with it. It becomes a sort of appointment every week I honor, while with many shows that are released in full day 1 I find myself falling of after a few episodes because there isn't that 'tuesdays is Shogun-day'-feeling. Also, a lesser episode in a weekly show hurts less than when it's a binge-release, where it might hurt the intention to keep watching more. And lastly, it can be daunting to have all 8 or 10 episodes immediately available. It immediately feels like a huge investment. I have every intention to watch 3 Body Problem and Fallout for instance, but haven't started both because (and this is irrational, I know) I feel like I'll have to finish them in a few days, which I haven't found the time for yet. I know that when I start them now, I'll probably only watch an episode every few days and probably never make it to the end. (Again, completely irrational).
But I understand people that love binging. I did it too in the early days of Netflix or with DVD-sets. Certain shows do lend them for it too, and I believe some could still be released this way. (I also must say I appreciate how some shows here in Belgium are released in a sort of hybrid manner, where the full show is put on a co-producing streamer while it airs weekly on tv. A crime show I worked on for instance had weekly releases on sunday, drawing an older and family demographic, but was fully released day and date with the first broadcast on the broadcasters platform, where it drew a younger demographic we probably would've lost with pure weekly releases)
It has nothing to do with self control, but that said, how are weekly drops not also about self control for people who want to binge? They can binge when all the episodes are released. The real issue is the health of the medium and what impacts the creative lives of the people who work on these shows. Weekly drops give them a better chance to survive and that really is the core issue. If you don't care about the creative people involved nor the increased odds that a show continues on, then by all means cheer for the binge method which impacts those issues as stated by the creative people involved who make these shows. Just don't try to claim it's about self control or get upset when a show gets cancelled while being unfinished under the binge model.
Agreed on all points, dumping a show destroys any momentum and discussion immediately, I much prefer weekly shows and those with more like 5 episodes.
When I read something like this I'm always reminded of Lucifer. Was always on the brink of cancellation as a weekly show until it finally was cancelled, got picked up by Netflix with the binge model, and was so successful Netflix practically begged the creators to do one more season after the originally-intended final season.
It's not a hard and fast rule.
I am confused as to what shows costed a lot to produce a first season, got low viewership, and actually had a phoenix rise from the dead moment due to water cooler talk. I suspect you can maybe count the amount on one hand. Do you really expect studios to hope for the one in a million turn around and be profitable?
Like, which shows are these?
Like, which shows are these?
Weekly shows seem to always have a lot more discussion around them. They also sometimes just drop their load and then it disappears from being discovered entirely.
the argument isn't about how people consume content. it's about how content is released.
Of course it's not a hard and fast rule; it's about odds and probability and time increases them.
what if i told you the people who control the means of production be fucking up?
Except it's not 'everybody', as there are a ton of people who won't have started it yet and will have to wait to binge it.
Not everybody will be watching it the day/week each episode is released, so the chance of things getting spoiled for most will happen whether it's released weekly or all in one.
Makes me wonder if on-demand binging might have saved Deadwood 🤔 . As a TV show it's more like The Wire, sorta novelistic and benefiting from a different pace of consumption than a drip feed.
Thinking about Fallout, I do think that this series was designed for a weekly viewing. But that's because of its reliance on puzzle box storytelling imo, which produces this theory crafting discussion stuff every week. But I don't think that actually turns Fallout into a great TV series at all, and if you aren't that invested in the mystery being spun it's hard to see it as anything other than drawing things out
The thing is, once you get to the end of it it turns out that mystery becomes something really interesting. But it feels like such a faff to get there. I feel this type of LOST-esque storytelling is more and more prevalent. I don't think TV shows need to be structured like that. It's mentioned above in another comment too. It turns episodes into being half and half interesting story/long, drawn out teases for its finale. I kinda hate it
How? Netflix is popular and profitable.
They seem to be making smart choices.
Let me ask you: you're money on the line, you listening to the nebulous idea of discussion breeds interest which breeds viewership or tangible, verifiable data?
As much as I like people being creative and shit, it stops when my money is going down the drain and things have to start making sense from then on.
I've been spoiled numerous times, due to weekly episode releases(within a few hours of it being made available)...
..thanks to the more intense discussion that single episode drops bring(it causes things to trend on twitter/be revealed on entertainment websites).
Not sure I've ever been spoiled for a show where all episodes have dropped at once, as people simply tend not to discuss the show as freely(which is a good thing when it comes to avoiding spoilers).
80-90% of TV industry professionals are out of work right now at last count, across all job roles and genres. I was one of them earlier this year, and now I'm scraping by with part time contracts while I consider what industry I can jump ship to.
That middle ground of movie budget that streaming killed? Also happened to TV. Mid-budget TV, which is where you interesting, risky and niche-interest projects come from (and what keeps the majority of the industry employed) are almost entirely dead across both entertainment and documentaries.
"Fewer, bigger" is the mantra from all the streamers and broadcasters, and "bigger" is getting going to get less and less interesting as the period of "subscriber growth = everything" is over so you're going to get less and less interesting, risky propositions too. You're going to get less "niche" stuff that serve minority interests and demographics. You're going to get less original ideas and more continued exploitation of existing IPs.
It's going to be a net-negative to consumers as well.
I used to like the whole season dump, but some point in the last couple years my opinion flipped. Personally I don't think one episode a week is the right choice for everything either. I feel like dumping it all makes me feel like I can't participate in discussion until I'm caught up out of fear of spoilers.
One thing I haven't seen anyone do (maybe it's been done already and I'm just not aware) since the start of streaming is release one episode every day/other day. I think that would be perfect for something like the last season of Stranger Things. It's a slow enough pace that if you can't watch one night you won't be too far behind, but fast enough that you aren't annoyed about having to wait a whole week for the next part. Streaming services don't have to adhere to a TV schedule, why not experiment a bit?
One thing I haven't seen anyone do (maybe it's been done already and I'm just not aware) since the start of streaming is release one episode every day/other day. I think that would be perfect for something like the last season of Stranger Things. It's a slow enough pace that if you can't watch one night you won't be too far behind, but fast enough that you aren't annoyed about having to wait a whole week for the next part. Streaming services don't have to adhere to a TV schedule, why not experiment a bit?
I think the half season drops Netflix has been doing is an interesting middle ground.
It's probably come down since then, but that was the last figure I saw.
We're looking at historic unemployment in the industry. The strikes didn't help but it started before then.
I know so many people out of work, on unemployment benefits, leaving the industry, etc. Shit's fucked.
edit - looking at the stats from last month, in the UK specifically we're down to "only" 70% now
They make smart choices in their interest and what's good to line their pocket and not necessarily what's good for the longevity of their shows. In fact, they don't want shows to run long at all because that then impacts their bottom line. It's actually in their interest to give you a couple seasons and then cancel the show with trying to push you on to something else. The binge model caters to that because they dump stuff all at once and then have huge gaps in between seasons.
What Netflix does is hope to move you on to something else in that large gap of a timeframe while you're waiting. You can see this if you look at the history of their shows and see how many actually make it past 2 to 3 seasons. The reason is because contract negotiations happen around that point which means the cost of the show to continue now suddenly goes up and Netflix has been clearly trying to avoid that and the binge model helps to do that. So the fallacy is thinking that Netflix continuing shows is in their interest when the reality is they want to move you on to something else that's cheaper to produce constantly.
And?
Netflix is fronting the cash. That's the line. If people want more seasons of something and Netflix sees no future in it because it's their money in the line then I am OK with them giving it the ax. I think folks who care a lot of these properties can start a campaign and have it funded themselves. Maybe they'll prove Netflix wrong. Most likely not, though.
I'm not saying Netflix can't make these decisions since it's their money; I'm saying they've built a business model around binging which doesn't cater around the concept of long lived shows and puts them more in line with content being quick and disposable. That's the business model they've built their company around. That doesn't mean long lasting shows can't be lucrative, as it clearly was for many shows before streaming came about. It's simply put that Netflix's binging model doesn't allow it because that's not how Netflix wants to generate their money. The point is that Netflix having a successful business doesn't mean it's the right choice for how shows are created and released when it comes to the health of the shows and the content; it just means Netflix found a way to make money that benefits them at the expense of these shows because Netflix has more interest in churn rather than creating long lasting IPs. Their business model is fine for what benefits them but it isn't good for creating shows.
Netflix also doesn't get the same rates as traditional cable. That's key. A Friday advertising slot during a decently popular show makes good money. You're also forgetting that Netflix will do longer shows if it is viable or makes sense.
The health of the show doesn't matter to a studio. If the show starts to fail it starts to fail. You cannot blame a studio for being fiscally responsible because some content they put out flounders.
And it all circles back to the main point: no one here is going to put their own money into this so why should Netflix? like, yeah, Netflix loses money and you guys get closure on some stories. I wouldn't do that and Netflix won't either.
Binge drops didn't make the shows not popular. Popular stuff becomes popular regardless.
I recognize that the way revenue is generated is totally different which is why I've said that Netflix has disrupted the market and made things worse multiple times including in this thread. I'm also not forgetting that Netflix will do longer shows; I'm saying that the way they handle shows makes them doing longer shows extremely a rare occurrence because it doesn't allow shows to breathe and grow. We've known for awhile now that Netflix only cares about how front heavy a show does and is only looking at a short window to determine if a show is healthy or not. I think when you look at how often Netflix actually allows longer running shows, they're behind the curve compared to everyone else.
I'm not saying studios should continue to spend money on failing shows. I'm saying the binge model doesn't give shows enough of a chance to become healthy and successful shows. Time increases the probability of a show catching on but of course doesn't guarantee it, but Netflix doesn't allow time for shows with the binge model to begin with. Combine that with Netflix doesn't actually want reasonably successful shows because they don't want to pay for them and would rather cut them loose and hope people move on to something else. They only want what's equivalent to the over a billion result at the box office or nothing for a show to stay around.
It's not simply just closure on stories. Shows get cancelled all the time through all methods of release and even under the old regime. Nobody is arguing that a failed show should continue. They're arguing that the binge model gives a much smaller window for a show to succeed and to catch on compared to the other methods. And again, just because Netflix can make money doesn't mean their method of release is good for producing quality shows; it just means they've found a way to make money through sheer volume and churn by making shows disposable with hoping that people will move on to something else and forget what they had just watched.
Binge drops has a decreased amount of time that a show gets visibility. Weekly drops increases how long a show can have visibility. Visibility allows growth. It's not about popularity, but about quality getting enough time to get noticed to become popular. Binge dropping is literally don't blink or you'll miss it which means many shows don't often get the chance that normally would allow stuff to become popular and big. Some of the biggest and most talked about shows didn't start out red hot and took time to simmer before becoming big. Things like Breaking Bad or Seinfeld would never have become what they are today if they originated on Netflix today under the binge model.
There is no flow of conversation with the binge format. Fallout drops and I watch 2 episodes because I can't stay up all night to binge. When I wake up the next day, the conversation has moved onto the final episode.
Spoiler culture makes this a really poor way to experience a new show as well. Open social media and shit is plastered all over.
Weekly drops give the show room to breathe, for it to develop a following, for conversation to progress naturally and chronologically. Some shows make more sense than others to just binge, but I prefer weekly. think it's easier to work weekly shows into your schedule as well since it's a smaller block of time.
Spoiler culture makes this a really poor way to experience a new show as well. Open social media and shit is plastered all over.
Weekly drops give the show room to breathe, for it to develop a following, for conversation to progress naturally and chronologically. Some shows make more sense than others to just binge, but I prefer weekly. think it's easier to work weekly shows into your schedule as well since it's a smaller block of time.
I absolutely prefer the weekly model over binging. Fallout hasn't even been out a week and it feels like the conversation is already moving on to the next thing.
This industry like any other has to adopt to new tech and business models or die. I as the consumer just need to decide how to spend my time and money. Idgaf if watching streaming dumps hurts the business.
I'm fine watching some shows weekly but I'd rather have all at once and watch it at my own pace.
Yeah the online and irl discussions are just awful in every way. I just avoid them.
I'm fine watching some shows weekly but I'd rather have all at once and watch it at my own pace.
Yeah the online and irl discussions are just awful in every way. I just avoid them.
There's somethings to be said about using actual schedules and real time to create experience. "Tune in next week!" can actually be part of the entertainment experience of a program. We have streaming services looking into adding "channels" to their services because discovery is a tool to engage. ARGS are fun, but even I admit that is a pretty big leap from a weekly release schedule. It feeds the hunter/gatherer in us. It's ritual. We like patterns.
But then there's the series drop, which is like a whole other kind of hit. You get full control, you can spend a weekend with something and then move on with your life. You can dole it out when you have time and not worry about missing anything or having to catch a rerun. But on the other end, you can lose organic growth in the popularity of a program due to it being there one week and then it's out of the public mind just as fast. If you don't catch that initial hit, then it's one season and Netflix cancels it. A lot of that can be fixed with good word of mouth and properly showcasing content but it's like putting your chips out there all at once instead of having a chance to reintroduce yourself every week.
Both can work but I think the structure of the show is important if you really use it. X-Men 97 is literally recreating a Saturday morning experience as part of it's goals, it being weekly makes sense. I don't know if Scott Pilgrim feels that way as an episode to episode experience.
But then there's the series drop, which is like a whole other kind of hit. You get full control, you can spend a weekend with something and then move on with your life. You can dole it out when you have time and not worry about missing anything or having to catch a rerun. But on the other end, you can lose organic growth in the popularity of a program due to it being there one week and then it's out of the public mind just as fast. If you don't catch that initial hit, then it's one season and Netflix cancels it. A lot of that can be fixed with good word of mouth and properly showcasing content but it's like putting your chips out there all at once instead of having a chance to reintroduce yourself every week.
Both can work but I think the structure of the show is important if you really use it. X-Men 97 is literally recreating a Saturday morning experience as part of it's goals, it being weekly makes sense. I don't know if Scott Pilgrim feels that way as an episode to episode experience.
it's not about building hype. it's about giving your potential audience more time to discover your show and join in on the conversation.
Do you think that is what the studios are going for with the weekly drop
I have had several people mention the Fallout show to me and it is a binge drop.