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tlhm94

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,025
Perhaps my example was too basic to be clear. A pretty classic example of horizontal progression is Call of Duty 4. In that game you start with a limited choice of weapons but slowly unlock more and more. Each has its own characteristics but none (theoretically) is better or worse than any other. You might have the M16A4 with its high damage accurate three bullet bursts, of the slow firing M14 which kicks like a mule and hits like a cannon, or the rapid firing but somewhat weaker G36c. You start with the M16A4. Unlocking the G36c or M14 doesn't make you stronger - it just gives you more choice.

What you are describing is not horizontal progression. You are describing vertical progression.

Call of Duty 4's progression system is almost entirely horizontal with the exception of attachment unlocks. It is pretty obvious that if Sea of Thieves offers any kind of horizontal progression, it's minute compared to that offered in something like CoD4.

CoD has perks that artificially over power players who do not need the help as they have to earn them by doing well in the first place. That results in players who get a good streak going running away with the match and makes things less interesting to engage with, especially for newcomers. That is not horizontal progression. Any time you have a player being awarded some stats buff which serves to further differentiate player success artificially, that is vertical progression.

What kind of rebuttal is that? You treat Rare as if they are some kind of omniscient God, as opposed to a fallible group of people. You implied that Sea of Thieves is doing something unique and innovative with their cosmetics. Please explain how it differs from what you find in any MMO or shared world game.

I already explained to you what SoT does differently with regards to its cosmetics; they designed the game such that the cosmetics has a material affect on the way ppl recognize each other,which itself affects the narratives that emerge from the game. Most other games do not do this and instead make cosmetics entirely so they can sell you stuff, which then forces them to remove any overlap on cosmetics/gameplay. In SoT, the cosmetics are designed to directly influence your decision making.




This is pretty pompous my dude, and to be honest nothing I've seen nor anything you have presented has made me think Sea Of Thieves is handling cosmetics in a special way. Can you give concrete examples?

It isn't presumptuous or pompous at all. I've followed their game design decisions for yrs now and Rodelero, no matter how often he gets corrected about them, refuses to acknowledge the purpose behind these decisions. He has done this over and over again in previous threads.

To answer your question, in other games cosmetics are there only to sell you stuff. They purposely make sure they can't affect gameplay outcomes to avoid criticisms that the game is pay to win, even though that is creeping back into MP games through lootboxes. No element of your decision making is likely to be affected by seeing someone in those other games with a certain set of armor or outfit. In SoT, the entire point of cosmetics is fundamentally about letting players take on a role in a story for themselves and those they encounter in the game. If you see high level sails on a ship, you can decide how to proceed and that decision has a material impact on how the emergent story of the voyage/adventure/encounter plays out. You can become recognizable in the game world, have bounties placed on you (assuming data mine is right), and other players can build their own revenge tales around that. Since stories in SoT are so important to the experience, as opposed to other games built on grinding for loot where the reward is more opportunity to grind more loot, the ability to express yourself and be recognized and recognize others actually matters.
 

RetroMG

Community Resettler
Avenger
Oct 25, 2017
6,829
The Black Dog outfit

sea-of-thieves-preorder2.jpg

Oooh, that's cool. It's not $60 USD cool, but it is cool.
 

Charcoal

Member
Nov 2, 2017
7,792
Sorry if this has been asked, but if you buy the physical version for Xbox One, does a PC code get linked to your account?
 

tlhm94

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,025
Can someone give me just a quick run down on the depth the game offers? I played the beta for a few hours but was incredibly bored by it. Combat seemed awful and the premise of just sailing around to get stuff to sell seems rather boring. I'll play it a bit more when it releases full but I'm not sure if its for me, Solo at least.

Solo sounds like very much as acquired taste. The purpose of the game is to sail around with your friends, going on adventures together. So if ya can play it with a mic/Kinect, it is HIGHLY recommended ya do so. Even if you don't have a bunch of pals to sail with, I've made prolly 15 or so new friends from the pre-release stuff already. This game basically acts as a fantastic social lubricant if you communicate.

When you depth, do you mean 'depth' or 'complexity'? It's a sandbox game, so there is tons of depth from the range of experiences it offers. That said, it is not very complex by design.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,952
What you are describing is not horizontal progression. You are describing vertical progression.

No. Vertical progression is what you get in RPGs where you plainly get stronger as you progress. This does not happen in Call of Duty 4. You start with a gun, a sidearm and three perks. You end with a gun, a sidearm and three perks.

CoD has perks that artificially over power players who do not need the help as they have to earn them by doing well in the first place. That results in players who get a good streak going running away with the match and makes things less interesting to engage with, especially for newcomers. That is not horizontal progression. Any time you have a player being awarded some stats buff which serves to further differentiate player success artificially, that is vertical progression.

Everyone always has three perks in Call of Duty 4, whether they are Level 1 or Prestige 10 Level 55. I guess you are referring to killstreak rewards which are not part of the progression system.

I already explained to you what SoT does differently with regards to its cosmetics; they designed the game such that the cosmetics has a material affect on the way ppl recognize each other,which itself affects the narratives that emerge from the game. Most other games do not do this and instead make cosmetics entirely so they can sell you stuff, which then forces them to remove any overlap on cosmetics/gameplay. In SoT, the cosmetics are designed to directly influence your decision making.

This is what I mean. You're describing SoT doing something that pretty much all MMOs, RPGs and shared world games do, but acting as if it is some kind of game design masterstroke.

I think you take Rare's PR a little too literally. When they talk up how much different articles of clothing distinguish players they're embellishing. There's nothing unusual or special about seeing a spiffy looking character in a game and thinking "Wow, they've played a lot" or "Wow, they must have done X content" or "They must be Y sort of player". It's a completely basic concept that has been implemented by many games for decades.
 
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Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,952
When do reviews hit? Couldn't see it in OP

There won't be any reviews pre-launch. I expect we'll see the first reviews towards the end of Tuesday, with plenty of 'pre-reviews' and 'reviews in progress' throughout the week. You'd think the more professional reviewers will take their time and we''ll probably only get a full picture a week after launch. If other similar games are anything to go by early reviews will probably skew positive.
 

Portmanteau

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,499
To answer your question, in other games cosmetics are there only to sell you stuff. They purposely make sure they can't affect gameplay outcomes to avoid criticisms that the game is pay to win, even though that is creeping back into MP games through lootboxes. No element of your decision making is likely to be affected by seeing someone in those other games with a certain set of armor or outfit. In SoT, the entire point of cosmetics is fundamentally about letting players take on a role in a story for themselves and those they encounter in the game. If you see high level sails on a ship, you can decide how to proceed and that decision has a material impact on how the emergent story of the voyage/adventure/encounter plays out. You can become recognizable in the game world, have bounties placed on you (assuming data mine is right), and other players can build their own revenge tales around that. Since stories in SoT are so important to the experience, as opposed to other games built on grinding for loot where the reward is more opportunity to grind more loot, the ability to express yourself and be recognized and recognize others actually matters.

But this already happens in a ton of MMOs and shared world games, even in games with grinding. I am not seeing the distinction. I think you're putting a lot of weight on a frankly fairly standard and elementary concept.
 

Portmanteau

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
1,499
What you are describing is not horizontal progression. You are describing vertical progression.

Horizontal mechanics point towards the development of a wide range of character attributes that will weather any challenges that lie ahead. Each ability isn't inherently better than another, but well-researched combinations might create a much more powerful effect. The key here is to expand the pool of items, abilities, and systems that are useful and interesting during the endgame.

https://www.engadget.com/2014/02/05/mmo-mechanics-comparing-vertical-and-horizontal-progression/

How isn't this horizontal progression?
 

derFeef

Member
Oct 26, 2017
16,716
Austria
There won't be any reviews pre-launch. I expect we'll see the first reviews towards the end of Tuesday, with plenty of 'pre-reviews' and 'reviews in progress' throughout the week. You'd think the more professional reviewers will take their time and we''ll probably only get a full picture a week after launch. If other similar games are anything to go by early reviews will probably skew positive.
I saw some media people on my friends list play it tho.
 
Jan 16, 2018
164
As for starting with just the pistol and sword, I don't think that's true. In the beta all four weapons - the cutlass, flintlock pistol, blunderbuss and Eye of Reach were available from the beginning with cosmetic variants offered in the gunsmith's shop. There's no real progression there but in some ways that's by the by, four weapons or six, the choice feels extremely limited.
There are achievements to buy the blunderbuss & eye of reach, so you won't be starting with them. Still, I wouldn't really consider it progression, since you can only have two weapons on you at a time.
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,952
There are achievements to buy the blunderbuss & eye of reach, so you won't be starting with them. Still, I wouldn't really consider it progression, since you can only have two weapons on you at a time.

Interesting, that means they reverted the change they made for the last few tests where you started with them all. Unless of course the achievments trigger when you buy a cosmetic variant instead I suppose. As you say though, it's very limited either way.
 

tlhm94

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,025
No. Vertical progression is what you get in RPGs where you plainly get stronger as you progress.

You're wrong and you aren't even incorporating the counterarguments into your thinking, which is exactly why folks should not bother trying to discuss this game with you. Vertical progression refers to any time your game character's stats are upped as a result of playing the game, which is not limited to 'leveling up' the character via XP grinding. It also includes buffing the character's skills by inflating its stats. Just because players can choose which stats to buff doesn't magically turn it into something 'not vertical progression'.

Everyone always has three perks in Call of Duty 4, whether they are Level 1 or Prestige 10 Level 55. I guess you are referring to killstreak rewards which are not part of the progression system.

The perks are earned via demonstrating existing skill with something, and as a result they further empower the player in that area. That is vertical progression because it artificially buffs a skill in a character that has an already-skilled player behind it. It does this in pursuit of delivering the power fantasy. SoT is not interested in such fantasies. That is not a flaw.

This is what I mean. You're describing SoT doing something that pretty much all MMOs, RPGs and shared world games do, but acting as if it is some kind of game design masterstroke.

First off, 'shared world' is not a genre, nor is MMO. Secondly, games in genres like rpg's or rpg-shooter derivatives do not do what SoT is doing, no matter how many times you just blindly assert it.

I think you take Rare's PR a little too literally. When they talk up how much different articles of clothing distinguish players they're embellishing. There's nothing unusual or special about seeing a spiffy looking character in a game and thinking "Wow, they've played a lot" or "Wow, they must have done X content" or "They must be Y sort of player". It's a completely basic concept that has been done better long ago by many, many games.

What is 'done better' specifically and in 'which games'? Please list all the games where player-driven stories are abundant and varied and which have cosmetics putting other players in central roles within those stories. Rpg's and games like Destiny/Division have an overarching story/mission structure to them which prevents much player-crafted narratives from developing. That in turn makes roles in a non-existent player-driven narrative immaterial, so when you assert that cosmetics in such games serve to differentiate roles in non-existent narratives obviously that cannot be the same thing SoT is doing. We can demonstrate the overwhelming success of SoT in positioning players to create emergent narratives themselves. Other games almost never have anything like that kinda of 'player-driven narrative sharing' because they aren't adept at creating player-driven narratives to begin with. That's why this game is suddenly so popular and why it skyrocketed to the top of streaming networks. Lemme spell this out for you:

  • Players take on roles in a player-centered narratives
  • Players express themselves via cosmetics within these roles
  • These cosmetics allow for player differentiation and affect decision making of other players
  • Hence, cosmetics affect how players interpret the conditions they encounter within that narrative and affect those narrative outcomes

For other games there is virtually no real element of player-centered narrative in the first place, hence there are no actual roles being played and thus cosmetics do not serve as anything other than a way to express yourself among ppl disinterested in your appearance. Nobody dresses their character up in order to express themselves within some strategy in those games. There is no element of interacting with another player's decision making. There is a reason SoT has spawned so many interesting player-driven stories in streams, youtube vids, hands on impressions of the press, pre-release tests, etc.
 

tlhm94

Banned
Oct 28, 2017
1,025

Leveling up your gear or utilizing higher level gear/weapons is vertical progression. Building strategies around cosmetics, such as avoiding players with high level sails, or trying to misrepresent your experience by dressing like a bilge rat, is about decision making and is horizontal progression. The article spells this out.
 

TheDave545

Member
Nov 4, 2017
698
What kind of cool Easter Eggs would people like to see in the game, personally I would love anything Guybrush Threepwood and LeChuck, obviously some Pirates Of The Caribbean stuff too, but I'm thinking more outlandish things or things not everyone would get?
 

Iced_Eagle

Member
Dec 26, 2017
880
I saw some media people on my friends list play it tho.

Yeah, GiantBombing gamertag is marked as having played it for example. In addition, there is a game clip of someone actually in the retail game on the store page (all the other clips are KiwiBeard clips). That clip can't be the beta, since it has its own separate store page since they're different "products". The clip is nothing interesting though, so whatever.

I wouldn't expect scored reviews before launch either, but I do think they might have "reviews in progress" up for launch day, with a few days' worth of experience since they seem to get in early. This is definitely a game where you need multiple days' worth of real world players in the game to get a sense of how it actually plays. Chances are the press are probably fairly lonely too since there's not going to be a huge amount of players online for them to fight / get chased by / befriend.
 

Theorry

Member
Oct 27, 2017
62,530
I doubt anyone really can play it yet. As the servers are not online. Hence the kiwibeards errors. :)
 

Rodelero

Member
Oct 27, 2017
11,952
Careful, others are starting to catch onto your bullshit now.

You're wrong and you aren't even incorporating the counterarguments into your thinking, which is exactly why folks should not bother trying to discuss this game with you. Vertical progression refers to any time your game character's stats are upped as a result of playing the game, which is not limited to 'leveling up' the character via XP grinding. It also includes buffing the character's skills by inflating its stats. Just because players can choose which stats to buff doesn't magically turn it into something 'not vertical progression'.

The perks are earned via demonstrating existing skill with something, and as a result they further empower the player in that area. That is vertical progression because it artificially buffs a skill in a character that has an already-skilled player behind it. It does this in pursuit of delivering the power fantasy. SoT is not interested in such fantasies. That is not a flaw.

I don't know whether you're massively ignorant of other games or if you simply can't read.

At level one in Call of Duty 4 you have: One gun, one frag grenade, one side-arm and three perks
At level fifty-five in Call of Duty 4 you have: One gun, one frag grenade, one side-arm and three perks

You get more choices - but you do not get better stuff. This is horizontal progression. You cannot redefine it to suit your nonsense argument, and you certainly can't argue with people on the basis of your personal definition.

The only area of Call of Duty 4's progression system which is vertical is the way you unlock attachments.

First off, 'shared world' is not a genre, nor is MMO. Secondly, games in genres like rpg's or rpg-shooter derivatives do not do what SoT is doing, no matter how many times you just blindly assert it.

What is 'done better' specifically and in 'which games'? Please list all the games where player-driven stories are abundant and varied and which have cosmetics putting other players in central roles within those stories. Rpg's and games like Destiny/Division have an overarching story/mission structure to them which prevents much player-crafted narratives from developing. That in turn makes roles in a non-existent player-driven narrative immaterial, so when you assert that cosmetics in such games serve to differentiate roles in non-existent narratives obviously that cannot be the same thing SoT is doing. We can demonstrate the overwhelming success of SoT in positioning players to create emergent narratives themselves. Other games almost never have anything like that kinda of 'player-driven narrative sharing' because they aren't adept at creating player-driven narratives to begin with. That's why this game is suddenly so popular and why it skyrocketed to the top of streaming networks.

Where to even begin... I said before that you take Rare's PR a little too literally but that was obviously an enormous understatement.

1) I think most games do a better job with crafting interesting and meaningful cosmetic items, largely because you earn them through encounters and loot drops rather than boringly walking into a shop and spending gold.
2) Having a central narrative does not prevent other narratives from forming in an emergent fashion. Sea of Thieves' lack of an overarching story is not a strength.
3) Day Z comes to mind as a game which does a brilliant job of developing unique and varied narratives driven by player interaction.
4) I think you overestimate the game's popularity - it's way too early to tell. Sea of Thieves is an exciting and fresh new game and it did capture people's imagination. But I doubt it will have a huge twitch following beyond the launch honeymoon period. It's great if it does, but we should be realistic. The game only has so much to offer and people are going to feel like they've seen it all after a while. I don't think it has the variety or skill dependence to drive long term interest.

Lemme spell this out for you:
  • Players take on roles in a player-centered narratives
  • Players express themselves via cosmetics within these roles
  • These cosmetics allow for player differentiation and affect decision making of other players
  • Hence, cosmetics affect how players interpret the conditions they encounter within that narrative and affect those narrative outcomes

You're massively exaggerating this. People are not going to act substantially differently because they see someone wearing this garb or that. Sure, if I see someone with top end stuff I might treat them with care, but I do that in any game. If I see a Black Knight in Fortnite I assume they're going to be a much tougher fight than someone running around without a skin. It's just not that special.
For other games there is virtually no real element of player-centered narrative in the first place, hence there are no actual roles being played and thus cosmetics do not serve as anything other than a way to express yourself among ppl disinterested in your appearance. Nobody dresses their character up in order to express themselves within some strategy in those games. There is no element of interacting with another player's decision making. There is a reason SoT has spawned so many interesting player-driven stories in streams, youtube vids, hands on impressions of the press, pre-release tests, etc.

If you think that Sea of Thieves has spawned 'so many interesting player-driven stories in streams, youtube vids, hands on impressions of the press, pre-release tests, etc.' because of the cosmetics you're completely deluded.
 
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Klyka

Member
Oct 25, 2017
19,065
Germany
I'm not quite sure why people think the cosmetics in the game are going to have any impact on how others interact with you.
You will never really see how an enemy pirate is actually dressed because most engagements happen from too far away or if they go close it's all obscured by blunderbusses and swordswings.
And seeing a sail or any ship stuff someone has is literally just "oh, he had 6600 gold for a sail. he must be a TOTAL BADASS /s "
 

bbq of doom

Member
Oct 25, 2017
10,606
I'm not quite sure why people think the cosmetics in the game are going to have any impact on how others interact with you.
You will never really see how an enemy pirate is actually dressed because most engagements happen from too far away or if they go close it's all obscured by blunderbusses and swordswings.
And seeing a sail or any ship stuff someone has is literally just "oh, he had 6600 gold for a sail. he must be a TOTAL BADASS /s "

I'm eager to see if the legend status changes that. If it's as rumored, I think it might—or at least be the coolest of the cosmetics.

IMO, the real progression is being able to use the systems and indulge in gameplay. Coming up with different uses, different stories, etc.
 

SpinlyLimbs

Banned
Feb 1, 2018
914
I'm not quite sure why people think the cosmetics in the game are going to have any impact on how others interact with you.
I don't know if this part was included in the sarcasm but I imagine Rare wants cosmetics to kinda be like someone with top tier gear appearing in PSOep1&2 (pls giv remaster of that game) although in this case it is kind of a liquid thing where it's entirely meta.
 
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