Seething hate for developers is something that the gaming community needs to work on

Gakidou · May 15, 2018

I can't help but feel there's an element of the fact that being able to design your own creative endeavour like a game (and have loads of talented people make it a reality) is a popular fantasy. So when people see a dev they think is making decisions they don't agree with, they instinctively feel like "I could actually do the job better than that person! Fire them and give me their job/opportunities! It's so unfair!"

I do also agree with the factors of the difficulty navigating hyperbole on the internet. But we really can do better overall at reading situations and um, not crossing the line from trash talk to direct threats.

Weird how a lot of people have said stuff like "You cant change things by complaining, that's just the internet/human nature!"
From my experience, correcting people, speaking out about cultural injustices, and shaming people who act disrespectful or cruel actually does change culture even more effectively than legislation. If you haven't seen the world change for the better on many social fronts already you must be either quite young or quite oblivious.

Aters · May 15, 2018

Custard said:
We don't blame you, just your bosses.

Anyhow, I don't get the hate either. Battlefront 2 is a good example, we all know EA's management are scum but the hate shown towards DICE is crazy, I think some people forget that there are suits trying to please their shareholders and yet the developers take the brunt of the hate.

Why are you so sure it's on publisher? How do you know the devs don't want nice bonus? Stop blaming "the suits" before any information.

KrillinLikeAVillan · May 15, 2018

FunkyMonkey said:
why do developers automatically deserve immunity from hate but other industries don't? what makes video game makers different?

does this apply to every industry on earth and their employees?

if an insurance company fucks me over am I allowed to say screw that company and its employees? or can I tell people who work for the trump organization that they are helping to promote a literal cancer on this world?

Why would you want to hate anyone for doing their job, regardless of the industry?

Mass_Pincup · May 15, 2018

Mifec said:
Perpetuating the damaging myth that 30fps is more cinematic and claiming they know better instead of just saying that's what the console allows.

This is wrong, it has nothing to do with what the console do or do not allow. 30fps was a design choice, the PS4 could output the game at 4K/60fps in this current state and RAD would still aim for 30fps.

And that's perfectly fine.

Syril · May 15, 2018

Online games seem to inspire a really weird kind where you'll have people actively involved in forums or what have you who've played extensively but have such a burning hatred and cynicism that it's a mystery why they're still invested. You'd think the developer was personally abusing their family the way some people talk.

Mondy · May 15, 2018

Kokonoe said:
This kind of attitude is how things never change.

I admire your resolve but, he's right. You're rowing up Niagra Falls with one paddle.

Poodlestrike · May 15, 2018

ShortNasty said:
Are you sure? Do you regularly frequent message boards dedicated to other industries? People talk shit about things that upset them all the time.

FunkyMonkey said:
no I am not. they are literally part of the workforce like waiters, bankers, scientists, farmers, etc

should I take down negative yelp reviews because they are humans with families to feed? do I specifically need to pen a letter to the ceo? I understand specially harassing individuals which is a bad thing to do to any human in any industry, but you guys placing video game developers way up high on the totem is lost on me.

When was the last time folks salty about an insurance investigator started a massive targeted harassment campaign that spilled over into an outright fascist renaissance?

Stop minimizing.

HighspeedRefleX · May 15, 2018

OP, you need to learn a lot about the real world. Most people that are technically adults- doesn't matter if they're 24 or 50 can indeed be childish as *beep*. People will use online communties to rant and troll, unfortunately

Doskoi Panda · May 15, 2018

Aters said:
No I can't, and don't tell me what I can or cannot do. You are not me. You don't know how big a part some of those franchises played in my life and how much they influenced me.

It's silly (and I'm being very charitable by stopping there) to suggest that dozens of people ought to be out of work because they're not making the video game that you want them to. No matter how much their previous games matter to you. Can't you see how absurd of a position that is to hold?

FunkyMonkey · May 15, 2018

Poodlestrike said:
When was the last time folks salty about an insurance investigator started a massive targeted harassment campaign that spilled over into an outright fascist renaissance?

Stop minimizing.

the OP doesn't mention that at all. are you going to use the most unique and extreme example to support what you're saying?

and there are neighborhood forums and where people voice colorful displeaser with electricians and plumbers and carpenters and masons and etc etc for many areas around the world.

StraySheep · May 15, 2018

Treasure Silvergun said:
It also creates and perpetuates expectations (eg: no Paper Mario can ever be good ever again because of Miyamoto and Sticker Star. Too bad Sticker Star is a perfectly fine game, just not what people expected and think they wanted).

That's a slippery slope you are heading down there.

Aters · May 15, 2018

Solid said:
It's silly (and I'm being very charitable by stopping there) to suggest that dozens of people ought to be out of work because they're not making the video game that you want them to.

I'm sure there are other games they can work on. I don't want Tabata to work on mainline Final Fantasy anymore, doesn't mean I want him fired.

DarthWalden · May 15, 2018

I'll never understand why people spend any time hating on anything, I get dropping a little joke or or taking a drive by shot or something but going out of your way to criticize something you don't like makes no sense to me.

If you really don't like something wouldn't you be better of putting your focus, time and energy on things you do like...

Silky · May 15, 2018

Zhukov said:
What about Randy Pitchford? Is he still on the table?

Am I still allowed to... well, "seething hate" would be altogether overdoing it... am I still allowed to hold him in contempt and occasionally express the opinion that he is full of shit?

You could follow this three step plan

Get over it, whatever damage that has been done out of the production of Colonial Marines/the G2A Bulletstorm scandal/whatever bullshit Randy's probably guilty of will never be settled in a method that the enthusiast audience will be satisfied with.
Continue to not support Gearbox products and concede with the idea that the majority of the general consumer base doesn't give a damn that whoever the fuck stole the idea or embezzled funds from some animated short or whatever bullshit
Drink water

You'd think after what, six or seven years that some sort of """Justice""" would come to that dude and his company regarding the allegations but nah nothing happened and, most likely, nothing will never happen

Borderlands 3 coming soon tho

ShortNasty · May 15, 2018

Poodlestrike said:
When was the last time folks salty about an insurance investigator started a massive targeted harassment campaign that spilled over into an outright fascist renaissance?

Stop minimizing.

Im not minimizing anything. People are nuts when they get angry. People shoot at people for cutting them off on the road. My only point, which was very focused, was that people get angry about alot of things. Gamers aren't particulalry unique in that aspect.

Silky · May 15, 2018

Segafreak said:
You cannot stop HUMANS from being hateful. It's not something inherent to the gaming community but to HUMANS.

I love these big brain posts thinking they have it all settled by brushing a broad stroke on humanity as a means to owning up to toxicity when, in the end, it's a shitty scapegoat used by people completely incapable of discussing these things without getting in their feelings

All humans breathe too my guy that doesn't excuse how shitty this medium and their enthusiasts can be

Poodlestrike · May 15, 2018

FunkyMonkey said:
the OP doesn't mention that at all. are you going to use the most unique and extreme example to support what you're saying?

and there are neighborhood forums and where people voice colorful displeaser with electricians and plumbers and carpenters and masons and etc etc for many areas around the world.

I think it's pretty relevant to the question of whether or not people are putting game devs up on a pedestal and asking for special treatment when pointing out that folks need to dial it down a few notches.

TheChungusAmongUs · May 15, 2018

Seething hate for people is something that the internet needs to work on.

This is not an exclusive issue to games. Movies, Tv Shows, Books, etc all have this problem. People feel the need to persecute someone for creating something because at worst they took money and time from them and ironically people will probably spend more time complaining and hating something on the internet than they actually engaged with the thing they are hating on.

Crayon · May 15, 2018

Low minded comments are part of the landscape. When riding, they say you have to look where you want to go.

If you get your buttons pushed real bad by trolling (and wish you didn't) then maybe.... youre guilty yourself here and there.

Kain-Nosgoth · May 15, 2018

Ishida said:
Nah, screw that. I love Inafune. The guy nurtured one of my favorite franchises of all time.

He did, and i'm grateful for that...

But he fucked tons of people over with mighty9, and never apologized or given any answers for it...
i'm not talking about the game here, the game was just pretty average...
i'm talking about people never getting their rewards, people who paid for the 3DS or Vita version that still have no game and can't get refunds, and so on!

MissCauthon · May 15, 2018

Phil Fish anyone? Lol or how about that Luke guy at Bungie. Grin

Aeana · May 15, 2018

Hate is a very strong emotion that I reserve for things that matter more than a hobby. I don't like what Miyamoto has done to Paper Mario, and I'll say so, but I don't hate him, and I don't obsess over him like a lot of people seem to do when they don't like something. I don't even hate Keiji Inafune, who tricked me into buying into his exploitation of my nostalgia for Mega Man, and that cost me a few hundred dollars (and the amount is 100% on me).

Doskoi Panda · May 15, 2018

it's pretty interesting that we can't talk about treating developers better on a game forum because everyone sucks or whatever and focusing on anyone at all, ever, means you're putting them on a pedestal

and by 'interesting'

i mean 'ass-backwards and dumber than shit'

Silky · May 15, 2018

I'm referring specifically to people who want developers to be fired or something bad happen to them, or bash them in inappropriate ways because they changed something about the gameplay in a patch or sequel.

I see this a lot in competitive games honestly. Dudes who probably don't browse forums go to Twitter and yell obscenities at the developers Twitter page thinking they're going to accomplish something , but in the end they're just pissing off the intern managing the account

I see it on this forum too , people incredibly invested into their favorite series not thinking rationally when any sort of criticism or grievance with a game, the industry or the community is brought up

There was a dude on the Rage 2 reveal trailer thread that got big mad at another poster mentioning the lack of minorities in the trailer and it was kind of pathetic lmfao let people have their grievances, you shutting them down with your constant crooning isn't gonna help the discussion move forward

Segafreak · May 15, 2018

Silky said:
I love these big brain posts thinking they have it all settled by brushing a broad stroke on humanity as a means to owning up to toxicity when, in the end, it's a shitty scapegoat used by people completely incapable of discussing these things without getting in their feelings

All humans breathe too my guy that doesn't excuse how shitty this medium and their enthusiasts can be

What the fuck are you talking about? You have never witnessed toxicity outside the gaming community?

Deleted member 27471 · May 15, 2018

I think ppl here are confusing constructive criticism or at the very least criticism done properly with hate.

The ones who spread the most hate also seem to be the ones that truly believe they're standing up for injustices in the game industry.

Mass_Pincup · May 15, 2018

Segafreak said:
What the fuck are you talking about? You have never witnessed toxicity outside the gaming community?

Toxicity inside the gaming community is exacerbated though.

LQX · May 15, 2018

I honestly can't say I have ever seen "seething hate" for a developer. Neither GAF, here or any other gaming site I have been too.

Silky · May 15, 2018

Segafreak said:
What the fuck are you talking about? You have never witnessed toxicity outside the gaming community?

Yes.

That doesn't excuse how shitty this medium and their enthusiasts can be

Why do you need to bring up "oh well EVERYONE is shitty" as some sort of excuse to not tackle toxicity. Because if EVERYONE is shitty there's no point right??????? fuck out of here nigga

Let me make this clear to you. We're not having a discussion about the world having seething hate or toxicity , we're having a discussion about the gaming community -- specifically enthusiasts like you and me (admittedly) -- and how they handle their displeasure with a product with seething hatred.

What does you bringing up the world being shitty do to this discussion? What did you intend to fix by doing it?

LQX said:
I honestly can't say I have ever seen "seething hate" for a developer. Neither GAF, here or any other gaming site I have been too.

Wow!!!! Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

You people really gotta stop doing that lol

4859 · May 15, 2018

So basically after going through this, this is basically a barely disguised don't criticize my precious precious industry thread, because any one who says anything that's not endless praise is a bad bad bad bad person attacking gamingdom, and we need to dogpile them with nebulous and non existent ideals of what okay criticism that we would allow should be, until somebody does that, and we dogpile on that with new inscrutable terms because nobodybattacks gamingdom and gets away with it.

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric · May 15, 2018

Aters said:
No I can't, and don't tell me what I can or cannot do. You are not me. You don't know how big a part some of those franchises played in my life and how much they influenced me.

Well, that wasn't intended as a directive so much as an observation that yes, a well-adjusted and mature person can simply move on.

The problem is that people think because they have an emotional investment in something they also have some manner of ownership and in reality, they don't.

Your opinion on the direction of a franchise or the alterations made therein are quite literally meaningless. The vast majority of critical feedback on the internet is bobbing about like so much flotsam and it's unlikely anyone involved in the making of these games is paying much attention, especially when people opt to become shrill, nasty, and arrogantly pedantic.

So you're free to get angry and attack these developers who you feel maligned your franchise but the reality is they'll probably never read it and they certainly won't take it seriously.

Especially when you claim they shouldn't be working at all.

a916 · May 15, 2018

Honestly, the toxicity towards developers or other peoples opinions, the fandom as it were, is what makes me sometimes not want to go on message boards.

LQX said:
I honestly can't say I have ever seen "seething hate" for a developer. Neither GAF, here or any other gaming site I have been too.

I think one of the first few posts in the recent Anthem thread was "hope it fails" or something.

Shroki · May 15, 2018

Budi said:
Shouldn't the site being just 8 months old make it easier to remember and not harder, he has an account here and some posts too in late 2017.

Oh wow. I've been here the whole time and didn't even know that happened.

Thought it was yet another case of people forgetting this isn't NeoGAF. Sorry about that.

Silky · May 15, 2018

4859 said:
So basically after going through this, this is basically a barely disguised don't criticize my precious precious industry thread, because any one who says anything that's not endless praise is a bad bad bad bad person attacking gamingdom, and we need to dogpile them with nebulous and non existent ideals of what okay criticism that we would allow should be, until somebody does that, and we dogpile on that with new inscrutable terms because nobodybattacks gamingdom and gets away with it.

Great job, you cracked the code

Deleted member 11926 · May 15, 2018

If we could harvest all the hate as energy from the gaming community, we would be able to warp space.

However, it is just the nature of the internet that invites reactionary, hyperbolic behaviour. I am not free of that myself, sadly. And that's why game devs have PR staff and community managers. They act as a "shield" to all the bullshit. And the biggest irony is that "fans" are usually the most vicious of all people to deal with (that goes for "fans" of any kind of entertainment, not only games).

Yes, it is a sad situation but that's how it is. The really infuriating thing is when this behaviour extends to places that "should" be save, like people posting "go kill yourself" or "can I have your stuff?" on a forum for depression.

The only realistic thing that one could hope for is that people realise that hating is pretty exhausting (and usually not worth it) as they get older.

Budi · May 15, 2018

Shroki said:
Oh wow. I've been here the whole time and didn't even know that happened.

Thought it was yet another case of people forgetting this isn't NeoGAF. Sorry about that.

Yeah he went silent quite fast, I didn't really follow it that much but my impression was that he didn't feel like answering some of the "harder" (GG) questions. Even mods called him out on this and he was never seen again.

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric · May 15, 2018

a916 said:
Honestly, the toxicity towards developers or other peoples opinions, the fandom as it were, is what makes me sometimes not want to go on message boards.

Fandom can be cool but it can also blossom into something ugly, tribal, and entirely intractable.

Mass_Pincup · May 15, 2018

Budi said:
Yeah he went silent quite fast, I didn't really follow it that much but my impression was that he didn't feel like answering some of the "harder" (GG) questions. Even mods called him out on this and he was never seen again.

Yeah, felt it was weird how the launch of the forum was all about a fresh start in a more calming atmosphere but went straight to controversy.

Aters · May 15, 2018

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric said:
Well, that wasn't intended as a directive so much as an observation that yes, a well-adjusted and mature person can simply move on.

The problem is that people think because they have an emotional investment in something they also have some manner of ownership and in reality, they don't.

Your opinion on the direction of a franchise or the alterations made therein are quite literally meaningless. The vast majority of critical feedback on the internet is bobbing about like so much flotsam and it's unlikely anyone involved in the making of these games is paying much attention, especially when people opt to become shrill, nasty, and arrogantly pedantic.

So you're free to get angry and attack these developers who you feel maligned your franchise but the reality is they'll probably never read it and they certainly won't take it seriously.

Especially when you claim they shouldn't be working at all.

So I guess we are done here. Yeah I know it's meaningless, it won't change anything. My entire presence on this forum is meaningless and won't change anything. I'm here to kill time that's all. What are YOU doing here? Trying to give other people life lessons? Well I can tell you the time you spend on this forum is no more meaningful than anyone else's.

NinjaScooter · May 15, 2018

Lack of real world/social skills + relative anonymity (and even if people use their real names, there is a feeling of anonymity, like a wall, that the internet represents that makes people feel like they can say what they want without consequence.) is why online social sites have become a breeding ground for ignorant little shits. It's not just towards developers or something exclusive to gaming. It seems people want to be negative in general. Look at any famous persons twitter. Someone could make the most innocent, innocuous tweet and people will use it as an opportunity to take shots or talk shit. Same thing with YouTube comments or any other type of comments in general. It's like they think that's the only way to get attention (and they are probably right)

Stinkles · May 15, 2018

CG Amor said:
I think ppl here are confusing constructive criticism or at the very least criticism done properly with hate.

The ones who spread the most hate also seem to be the ones that truly believe they're standing up for injustices in the game industry.

This is not limited to the games industry - and it's a common rhetorical technique online - being rude or toxic about subjectives can be "justified" by finding more seemingly objective lines of attack. So, "Lazy devs" morphs into "deceptive" or something more seemingly reasonable and actionable.

And sometimes there's objective stuff to be mad about like us launching a buggy game, so you have to sift through the noise to find the signal. But if you have a legitimate beef, wrapping it in toxicity is the least effective method of having your complaint heard. You don't have to "slurp" to simple describe and issue and why you're unhappy about it.

On the other end of that spectrum, you don't have to send death threats or run DDOS scripts either.

Also Twitter is (often) functionally a really bad place to engage in constructive and detailed conversations as a direct result of the product's limitations and rhetorical flow. It's more useful for alerts, announcements and drive by hot takes.

Dark Knight · May 15, 2018

I dont hate any developers. I think any irrational hate for any person or group is a product of an unstable/illogical person and not so much a culture problem like what ia being suggested. Most normal people who are gamers probably dont *hate* the developers that make their awesome and enjoyable games. I respect the hell out of game developers tbh.

Segafreak · May 15, 2018

Silky said:
Yes.

That doesn't excuse how shitty this medium and their enthusiasts can be

Why do you need to bring up "oh well EVERYONE is shitty" as some sort of excuse to not tackle toxicity. Because if EVERYONE is shitty there's no point right??????? fuck out of here nigga

Let me make this clear to you. We're not having a discussion about the world having seething hate or toxicity , we're having a discussion about the gaming community -- specifically enthusiasts like you and me (admittedly) -- and how they handle their displeasure with a product with seething hatred.

What does you bringing up the world being shitty do to this discussion? What did you intend to fix by doing it?

Wow!!!! Just because you haven't seen it doesn't mean it doesn't exist

You people really gotta stop doing that lol

I didn't bring anything up, or use as an excuse, stop putting words into my mouth, and I'm not your "nigga"

I only quoted OP that you cannot stop people from being hateful, you're not gonna regulate anything. Anonymity on the internet makes people jerks, not just in gaming.

What the fuck are you gonna do about it?

Deleted member 5167 · May 15, 2018

4859 said:
So basically after going through this, this is basically a barely disguised don't criticize my precious precious industry thread, because any one who says anything that's not endless praise is a bad bad bad bad person attacking gamingdom, and we need to dogpile them with nebulous and non existent ideals of what okay criticism that we would allow should be, until somebody does that, and we dogpile on that with new inscrutable terms because nobodybattacks gamingdom and gets away with it.

Your response says nothing accurate about the OP but speaks volumes as to your own character

Deleted member 4869 · May 15, 2018

Kain-Nosgoth said:
He did, and i'm grateful for that...

But he fucked tons of people over with mighty9, and never apologized or given any answers for it...
i'm not talking about the game here, the game was just pretty average...
i'm talking about people never getting their rewards, people who paid for the 3DS or Vita version that still have no game and can't get refunds, and so on!

I see. Personally I liked Mighty N°9. But even if I hated it, it would be almost impossible for me to disregard Inafune's entire career just because of that.

But you are 100% correct in your assessment. People who never got what they paid for have all the right to be angry.

Tetra-Grammaton-Cleric · May 15, 2018

Aters said:
So I guess we are done here. Yeah I know it's meaningless, it won't change anything. My entire presence on this forum is meaningless and won't change anything. I'm here to kill time that's all. What are YOU doing here? Trying to give other people life lessons? Well I can tell you the time you spend on this forum is no more meaningful than anyone else's.

Personally, I enjoy this medium; that's why I'm here.

I don't mourn it and I don't spend my time wishing people suffer unemployment because a franchise went in a different direction than anticipated.

I am continually mystified at people who seem to be steeped in cynicism and negativity; it seems exhausting.

Regardless, I wasn't looking to offend you or give you 'life lessons' so apologies.

feroca · May 15, 2018

Is just another sad side of the internet and animosity. Not new, but still disappointing.

Heck, people wished ill to Iwata before he passed away (that E3 with the puppets was a mess to follow online because of that). So as long as people have a way to voice their minds while hiding under an avatar and a made-up name things will just continue.

Deleted member 2550 · May 15, 2018

I don't much see the harm in saying you think someone should be fired if you think they've done an incredibly poor job of something. Likewise, I'll continue to call a game or parts of a game shit if they're shit. Or calling out a dev on some scummy shit.

Harassing a dev and stuff is another story.

Deleted member 2620 · May 15, 2018

4859 said:
So basically after going through this, this is basically a barely disguised don't criticize my precious precious industry thread, because any one who says anything that's not endless praise is a bad bad bad bad person attacking gamingdom, and we need to dogpile them with nebulous and non existent ideals of what okay criticism that we would allow should be, until somebody does that, and we dogpile on that with new inscrutable terms because nobodybattacks gamingdom and gets away with it.

could you provide some examples of the criticism you think is suppressed

it seems extremely clear to me: relentlessly and even ruthlessly criticizing a game is fine, but divining things like employee merit and work ethic out of one's asshole is dumb and should be clowned on. the latter is rarely insightful and almost always the result of posturing, in my experience.

Silky · May 15, 2018

Segafreak said:
I didn't bring anything up, or use as an excuse, stop putting words into my mouth, and I'm not your "nigga"

I only quoted OP that you cannot stop people from being hateful, you're not gonna regulate anything. Anonymity on the internet makes people jerks, not just in gaming.

What the fuck are you gonna do about it?

Well for one I'm not gonna have that cynical mindset deter me from what I know is right lmfao

Seething hate for developers is something that the gaming community needs to work on

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