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Firmament1

Member
Aug 15, 2019
1,288
Article in question

"I've been studying the effects of video games on players for two decades now, most of it on violence. I think most people have come to accept that there's no relationship between violent video games and aggression or violent crime (despite some holdouts including the APA)," explained study author Christopher J. Ferguson, a professor of psychology at Stetson University. "However, people still ask a lot of questions about sexualization and whether games either make male players more sexist toward women or whether women players experience more body dissatisfaction and other well-being concerns. It's a much smaller research field than the violence field, so we hoped to bring some clarity to it."
"Overall, the 'moral panic' over video games and sexualization is pretty much following the 'paint-by-numbers' pattern of the video game debate. Lots of hyperbole and moral outrage, but very little evidence that video games are causing any 'harm' to either male or female players," Ferguson told PsyPost.

I'm going to draw extra attention to this following quote, just so the intentions of this article, or me posting this article, are not misconstrued.
"As a purely 'public health' issue, this doesn't appear to be much of a concern at all. That doesn't mean people can't advocate for better representations of females in games. They just need to be cautious not to make claims of 'harm' that can be easily debunked, thereby calling into question what might otherwise be reasonable advocacy goals."
"The major caveat is simply that many of the studies just aren't very good," Ferguson said. "The good news is that the higher quality studies were less likely to find evidence for negative effects than lower quality studies. In some cases, scholars probably interjected their personal moral opinions into the studies, if unintentionally. Granted it's still a fairly small research area, but this initial data has been so underwhelming that I'm not sure there's much to be mined here."
"Obviously, we go through these cycles of blaming media for social problems," the researcher added. "At least with fictional media, the evidence often reveals that we're probably scapegoating media and fiction rarely causes social problems. Again, to be fair, advocating for better representation of females in games can be a worthy cause even if the games don't cause harmful effects. I support those efforts, just hope advocates don't misrepresent the evidence as a part of their efforts (which, unfortunately, is all too common among advocacy groups)."
 

ashtaar

Member
Oct 27, 2017
1,518
In before the lock đź”’
Actually just reserving space while I read through the article
Edit: it's a meta analysis of other studies which are used quite often, they point out a lot of the studies are low quality but the higher quality ones tend to show a smaller effect. Of course it would be nice if they had any sort of numbers to see how many participants and the break up by age and gender
 

PlanetSmasher

The Abominable Showman
Member
Oct 25, 2017
115,871
I dunno. Rampant sexualization definitely does psychic damage to me. That may not be a scientific finding, but just because it hasn't be scientifically proven to be traumatizing people doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and let devs and artists continue to be creepy perv weirdos and treat their female characters like garbage.

Devs could also learn how to better make points without relying on ultra-realistic ultraviolence.
 

Ashes of Dreams

Unshakable Resolve
Member
May 22, 2020
14,499
I think the difference between violence and sexism in video games is that society has always made a point to establish that violence is wrong and has real consequences in real life. The same is not true of sexism, which is often rewarded or at least goes unpunished. So no, video games don't CAUSE sexism, but they do reinforce it in a way that doesn't happen with violence.

Suggesting that media has zero impact on society trends or the way people think is just as off base as suggesting media is the sole cause of someone's actions. Lindsay Ellis had a really good video on how transphobic trends in 90s movies contributed a lot to the real life conversations and views of trans people.
 

Captain of Outer Space

Come Sale Away With Me
Member
Oct 28, 2017
11,357
despite some holdouts including the APA

damn-dammit.gif
 

Parshias

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,600
After simply reading the excerpts in the OP, I feel like the basis of the study is flawed. Sexualization in video games might not make things worse, but it certainly isn't making things better.

There aren't only two options: 'things get worse' and 'the status quo is maintained (except the status quo is bad)'. You can strive to make things better, and if sexualization is instead causing things to stay in a (shitty) status quo rather than making improvements then that is its own sort of harm.
 

BoredLemon

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,004
How are we defining 'harm' here?
To examine this issue, we explored the degree to which sexualization in games was related to both well-being/body dissatisfaction and sexism/misogyny among players in two separate meta-analyses. Results revealed that sexualization in games was neither related to well-being/body dissatisfaction (r = 0.082, k = 10, n = 2,010, p = .066) nor sexism/misogyny (r = 0.040, k = 15, n = 15,938, p = .070)
 

nonoriri

Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,244
Very few people criticizing these things exclusively blames video games for causing more sexism but media reflects and reinforces societal attitudes which is problematic even if they aren't the inventor or sole peddler. And video games can often skew extreme.

ALSO. 1. He mentions the studies aren't very good so it's irresponsible to even make a headline claim about this. Research wasn't even actually done. Pretty sus to bury that lead.

2. It's hard to take this seriously from someone's whose academic page looks like this.
 

Dyle

One Winged Slayer
The Fallen
Oct 25, 2017
29,954
It would be strange if there was any clear link given that similar trends in other established forms of media which have been more thoroughly studied and have had few signs of causation
 

purseowner

From the mirror universe
Member
Oct 25, 2017
9,444
UK
BoredLemon I can't quote your post because there's nothing in it when I click quote, but I'm not convinced that misogyny is something easily measurable or quantifiable
 

entremet

You wouldn't toast a NES cartridge
Member
Oct 26, 2017
60,223
Very few people criticizing these things exclusively blames video games for causing more sexism but media reflects and reinforces societal attitudes which is problematic even if they aren't the inventor or sole peddler. And video games can often skew extreme.

ALSO. 1. He mentions the studies aren't very good so it's irresponsible to even make a headline claim about this. Research wasn't even actually done. Pretty sus to bury that lead.

2. It's hard to take this seriously from someone's whose academic page looks like this.
Memories.
 

Pancracio17

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Avenger
Oct 29, 2017
18,815
I think the effect of sexualized videogames making people sexist is really just an illusion caused by the apparent fact that a larger part of the audience than normal are just wierdos. Like if a normal person played Xenoblade 2 or even DoA Xtreme they wouldnt come out the other end sexist. But you gotta think about who plays DoA Xtreme anyway.
 

DiipuSurotu

Banned
Oct 25, 2017
53,148
People aren't arguing that some video games cause misogyny

People are arguing that some video games are misogynistic
 

RedMercury

Blue Venus
Member
Dec 24, 2017
17,665
After simply reading the excerpts in the OP, I feel like the basis of the study is flawed. Sexualization in video games might not make things worse, but it certainly isn't making things better.

There aren't only two options: 'things get worse' and 'the status quo is maintained (except the status quo is bad)'. You can strive to make things better, and if sexualization is instead causing things to stay in a (shitty) status quo rather than making improvements then that is its own sort of harm.
Exactly, the study can tell us there is a status quo being maintained with things not getting worse but not how through less sexualization things can get better in the other direction. Still, I dunno if I buy this, there are too many anecdotal experiences of women speaking on this that do not line up with these results and nothing about them seems to make them huge outliers. This whole thing feels like someone just really wanted an excuse to sexualize women in games. if people are being made to feel uncomfortable, there isn't much upside to continue doing it when it's just as easy to not do it.
 

cjpoppinov

Member
Jul 27, 2021
126
Toronto
my little brother became a sexual deviant because of the media his new girlfriend was showing him

there's been plenty of studies about porn and sexual content being a gateway to behaviours and desires that were once locked away

and on the other hand i also believe the human mind is capable of denying corruption if strong enough, but you're definitely walking a fine line when you're seeing sexual and/or violent content for large periods of time
 
Oct 30, 2017
3,629

Thank you for the clarification.

I dunno. Rampant sexualization definitely does psychic damage to me. That may not be a scientific finding, but just because it hasn't be scientifically proven to be traumatizing people doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and let devs and ar

Plus, when the article uses "moral panic" and "females" and then completely undermines itself by mentioning the studies aren't very good, I'm giving the side eye.

I don't think asking designers not to cater towards horndog teenager level harmonies level of embarrassing designs for women is really "moral panic".
 

cjpoppinov

Member
Jul 27, 2021
126
Toronto
once video games get to a level of sexual or violent content that is much more realistic to the subconscious mind, these studies will all be obsolete and entire new research will be required

we haven't had REALISTIC violence or sex in video games until the last 5-6 years, everything before that was poor graphics or poor scripting and the human brain no matter how old was able to decipher and not let that affect them

but as i first said, once the games are more realistic, who knows.....
 

Uzumaki Goku

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,316
I do feel like in general

People need to do a better job separating fiction from reality.
 

cjpoppinov

Member
Jul 27, 2021
126
Toronto
I dunno. Rampant sexualization definitely does psychic damage to me. That may not be a scientific finding, but just because it hasn't be scientifically proven to be traumatizing people doesn't mean we should throw our hands up and let devs and artists continue to be creepy perv weirdos and treat their female characters like garbage.

Devs could also learn how to better make points without relying on ultra-realistic ultraviolence.

agreed here

the entire community is naive if it collectively thinks/suggests that there arent some game devs who are perverted deviants and some even pedophiles...
 

TaySan

SayTan
Member
Dec 10, 2018
31,483
Tulsa, Oklahoma
"The major caveat is simply that many of the studies just aren't very good," Sounds like something that needs more research before coming to this conclusion.
 

Uzumaki Goku

One Winged Slayer
Member
Oct 27, 2017
19,316
how do you tell that to 13 year old girls and boys playing sexual or violent games on ultra realistic graphics in the next few years? do we just hope their parents monitor them and that's it? there's nothing on the devs or community? u feel me?
Isn't what the rating system is for though?
 

KillLaCam

Prophet of Truth
Member
Oct 25, 2017
15,388
Seoul
Idk if this study is true but I'd be fine with just having more equal sexualization if they're gonna do it. Let me give everyone crotch armor
 

cjpoppinov

Member
Jul 27, 2021
126
Toronto
Isn't what the rating system is for though?

lmao well...

porn sites are 18+ but there's an epidemic among the youth for some reason idk why /s

maybe it's because the rating/warnings aren't enough, idk

if the youth want to explore sex through gaming im sure they will, and if devs are inadvertently providing content for that then there's absolutely no way to argue or debate, it just is what it is
 

Kazooie

Member
Jul 17, 2019
5,043
After simply reading the excerpts in the OP, I feel like the basis of the study is flawed. Sexualization in video games might not make things worse, but it certainly isn't making things better.

There aren't only two options: 'things get worse' and 'the status quo is maintained (except the status quo is bad)'. You can strive to make things better, and if sexualization is instead causing things to stay in a (shitty) status quo rather than making improvements then that is its own sort of harm.
The question would then be: Can media depiction lead to change. the study here does not claim that media depiction actively maintains the status quo, it says that it does not (significantly) increases harm.
 

BoredLemon

Member
Nov 11, 2017
1,004
BoredLemon I can't quote your post because there's nothing in it when I click quote, but I'm not convinced that misogyny is something easily measurable or quantifiable
Well, maybe not easily or perfectly, but I'm guessing social studies have some way to measure misogyny.
The paper in question is just a statistical analysis of the field, it's not coming up with its own measurements. The full version probably has a better definition, that's just an abstract.
 

JCG

Member
Oct 25, 2017
2,539
Interesting. It's always been necessary to carry out more research and even to evaluate past studies about this and other topics. That doesn't mean this particular analysis should be treated as the final word on the entire topic either, but it means the links between media and harm remain something that should continue to be analyzed and explored.

Even so, while games and other forms of media may not inherently cause the underlying problems and their direct impact on individuals may be statistically weak (at least in the sense that playing a sexist videogame isn't going to suddenly make you sexist, not more than playing a game with good representation of women will instantly make you feminist)...I believe there's a couple of other relevant subjects that should be considered in detail:

1. Accumulated impact from exposure to games and other media over a very long period of time, which is unlikely to only have a neutral effect.

2. Sexualized content in all of its various forms can still trigger or reawaken existing traumatic experiences, which is obviously a type of indirect harm.

2. It's hard to take this seriously from someone's whose academic page looks like this.

That is pretty wild. Having said so, it should be clarified that he wasn't the sole author of the meta-analysis:

The study, "Does sexualization in video games cause harm in players? A meta-analytic examination", was authored by Christopher J. Ferguson, James D. Sauer, Aaron Drummond, Julia Kneer, and Emily Lowe-Calverley.
 
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nonoriri

Member
Apr 30, 2020
4,244
Well, it was worth a google at least. Just want to make sure shitheads are shitheads because confidently stating that they're shitheads.

That said, yeah he's a shithead and this crap shouldn't be promoted.
Oh no, it's legit to double check but the language used instantly threw up pretty clear red flags about where there's smoke there's fire etc.
 

Viale

â–˛ Legend â–˛
Member
Oct 25, 2017
11,620
I mean, at least he's not advocating for not changing anything(and seems to be wanting the opposite?).


Kind of strange read tho.
 

Exposure

Member
Oct 25, 2017
1,656
This feels like one of those threads where the OP is just never going to post in it while the thread itself eventually gets locked because there's no way to escape the implied subtweeting of "see all you people complaining about this are just complaining about nothing, up yours woke moralists" without any actual arguments to discuss instead.

like I don't get it, is there anybody who even pulled the public health argument about over sexualization in video games? Most of the time it's generally people arguing they just find it incredibly stupid and offensive to themselves.
 

Cerulean_skylark

Attempted to circumvent ban with alt account.
Banned
Oct 31, 2017
6,408
"The major caveat is simply that many of the studies just aren't very good," Sounds like something that needs more research before coming to this conclusion.

Yes this is the point that will get buried.
This is a meta analysis, it can say just as much about the quality of studies as it does scientific analysis for its conclusions.

However, I cannot find a free copy without sending a bunch of emails to the researchers in question, i'd be interested to actually read more than the abstract.
Also the journal says it's being published in October 2022, we might not know the actual study details for some time.
 

Elfgore

Member
Mar 2, 2020
4,582
I really have never liked comparing violence and misogyny in terms of video games. One is an absolute taboo that will normally be met with punishment from multiple sources. The other until recently hasn't even been considered an issue or met with punishment and in many places still goes by without any.
 

elyetis

Member
Oct 26, 2017
4,556
Thank you for the clarification.



Plus, when the article uses "moral panic" and "females" and then completely undermines itself by mentioning the studies aren't very good, I'm giving the side eye.

I don't think asking designers not to cater towards horndog teenager level harmonies level of embarrassing designs for women is really "moral panic".
My experience with Meta-analysis is very limited but I followed many people explaining the scientific process during the whole pandemy, including meta-analysis, and the quality of the studies the meta-analysis used ( including why they ignore/reject some existing studies/paper ) was definitely important from my understanding.
 

waterpuppy

Too green for a tag
Member
Jul 17, 2021
1,819
Seems like this dude has no idea what the point of discussing sexualization in video games is?
 
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